[GRLUG] NOT LINUX - broadband

[Bob Kline]

Re twisted pair cost, from the CO to
a home.  Can be hundreds of feet, and
can be 3.5 miles.

Population density is of course part of
the "equation."  For truly rural areas
one uses satellite.  For places like NYC,
Chicago, etc., etc., it's economic to offer
fiber.

I suspect "France" largely means Paris
and the surrounding area.

Anyway, enough already.  Verizon already
offers FiOS in some areas at a very attractive
price.  I suspect there are plenty of markets
for it, even if not every corner of the US.

    -- Bob


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 3:53 PM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org>wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 02, 2009 at 03:28:27PM -0400, Bob Kline wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 3:18 PM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org
> >wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Sep 02, 2009 at 02:52:43PM -0400, Bob Kline wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> http://tech.yahoo.com/news/nm/20090902/wr_nm/us_telecom_broadband_definition_2
> > > >
> > > > Comcast is of course leading the charge
> > > > for mediocre performance.  If you don't
> > > > provide decent bandwidth, change the
> > > > definition.
> > > >
> > > > Note the bandwidth figures for Japan, S. Korea,
> > > > and France.  What Comcast and others in the US
> > > > propose is pathetic.
> > >
> > > Japan's population density is 870 people per square mile.  South
> Korea's
> > > is 1,260.  France's population density is 280.  The United States?  A
> > > mere 80 people per square mile.  It is far more cost-effective to lay
> > > high-bandwidth fiber to several hundred people per square mile than it
> > > is to only 80.  The reports you cited were in response to the
> > > President's desire to increase broadband coverage in America.  That
> > > primarily means rural areas since most cities have some form of
> > > broadband.  It makes sense to not define broadband as 16.0Mb/1Mb.
> > > Laying the lines necessary for those speeds to a community of 300
> people
> > > is not economically feasible.  The return on investment would be
> > > horrible.  That being said, defining broadband as 768k/200k is absurd.
> > > It is somewhere in between.  The US will never have an average
> broadband
> > > speed even close to that of Japan, South Korea, or France.  It doesn't
> > > make economic sense.
> [snip]
> > > --
> > > john-thomas
> >
> > The population density argument is often
> > cited, but I think if there was anything to
> > it most of us wouldn't have landlines, cable,
> > water, sewer, electricity, etc.  Certainly one
> > wouldn't include fibers to the boonies in the
> > beginning, but metropolitan areas in most
> > states are surely candidates.  It's no more
> > expensive to run a fiber to the home than
> > a twisted pair if you do it during construction.
>
> The fact that you wouldn't immediately run "fibers to the boonies"
> illustrates population density is part of the equation.  That is why it
> is so often cited; it's true.
>
> You must remove water, sewer, and electricity from the discussion as
> these are required of municipalities, at least at the city level, if not
> the village level (the *city* of Grand Rapids must provide water and
> sewer whereas the village of Caledonia does not).  The bottom line is
> the United States is just too big with too small a population to compete
> with more densely populated countries on average internet speeds.
>
> > The average cost to run a twisted pair today
> > is about $2,000.  But it's a long term investment,
> > and the phone or cable companies could
> > amortise the cost over 20 years or more.  A
> > fiber could be retrofitted for that much, on
> > average, and less in many cases.
>
> The average cost to run twisted pair is about $2,000...to what?  Per
> mile?  From the line outside into the home?  That figure doesn't make
> sense with a context.
>
> > France has over 50Mbps, and it does not have
> > the population density of SK or Japan.  Even
> > so, one would sensibly start in Paris.
> >    -- Bob
>
> No, it doesn't have the density of South Korea or Japan, but if you
> noticed my numbers, France's population density is still *three and a
> half times* that of the United States.  That's a considerable
> difference—enough to explain the difference between average speeds.
> --
> john-thomas
> ------
> I believe I have no prejudices whatsoever. All I need to know is that a man
> is a member of the human race. That's bad enough for me.
> Mark Twain, author and humorist (1835-1910)
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