Re twisted pair cost, from the CO to<br>a home. Can be hundreds of feet, and<br>can be 3.5 miles.<br><br>Population density is of course part of<br>the "equation." For truly rural areas<br>one uses satellite. For places like NYC,<br>
Chicago, etc., etc., it's economic to offer<br>fiber. <br><br>I suspect "France" largely means Paris<br>and the surrounding area.<br><br>Anyway, enough already. Verizon already<br>offers FiOS in some areas at a very attractive<br>
price. I suspect there are plenty of markets<br>for it, even if not every corner of the US.<br><br> -- Bob<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 3:53 PM, john-thomas richards <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jtr@jrichards.org">jtr@jrichards.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div></div><div class="h5">On Wed, Sep 02, 2009 at 03:28:27PM -0400, Bob Kline wrote:<br>
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 3:18 PM, john-thomas richards <<a href="mailto:jtr@jrichards.org">jtr@jrichards.org</a>>wrote:<br>
> > > On Wed, Sep 02, 2009 at 02:52:43PM -0400, Bob Kline wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > <a href="http://tech.yahoo.com/news/nm/20090902/wr_nm/us_telecom_broadband_definition_2" target="_blank">http://tech.yahoo.com/news/nm/20090902/wr_nm/us_telecom_broadband_definition_2</a><br>
> > ><br>
> > > Comcast is of course leading the charge<br>
> > > for mediocre performance. If you don't<br>
> > > provide decent bandwidth, change the<br>
> > > definition.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Note the bandwidth figures for Japan, S. Korea,<br>
> > > and France. What Comcast and others in the US<br>
> > > propose is pathetic.<br>
> ><br>
> > Japan's population density is 870 people per square mile. South Korea's<br>
> > is 1,260. France's population density is 280. The United States? A<br>
> > mere 80 people per square mile. It is far more cost-effective to lay<br>
> > high-bandwidth fiber to several hundred people per square mile than it<br>
> > is to only 80. The reports you cited were in response to the<br>
> > President's desire to increase broadband coverage in America. That<br>
> > primarily means rural areas since most cities have some form of<br>
> > broadband. It makes sense to not define broadband as 16.0Mb/1Mb.<br>
> > Laying the lines necessary for those speeds to a community of 300 people<br>
> > is not economically feasible. The return on investment would be<br>
> > horrible. That being said, defining broadband as 768k/200k is absurd.<br>
> > It is somewhere in between. The US will never have an average broadband<br>
> > speed even close to that of Japan, South Korea, or France. It doesn't<br>
> > make economic sense.<br>
</div></div>[snip]<br>
> > --<br>
> > john-thomas<br>
<div class="im">><br>
> The population density argument is often<br>
> cited, but I think if there was anything to<br>
> it most of us wouldn't have landlines, cable,<br>
> water, sewer, electricity, etc. Certainly one<br>
> wouldn't include fibers to the boonies in the<br>
> beginning, but metropolitan areas in most<br>
> states are surely candidates. It's no more<br>
> expensive to run a fiber to the home than<br>
> a twisted pair if you do it during construction.<br>
<br>
</div>The fact that you wouldn't immediately run "fibers to the boonies"<br>
illustrates population density is part of the equation. That is why it<br>
is so often cited; it's true.<br>
<br>
You must remove water, sewer, and electricity from the discussion as<br>
these are required of municipalities, at least at the city level, if not<br>
the village level (the *city* of Grand Rapids must provide water and<br>
sewer whereas the village of Caledonia does not). The bottom line is<br>
the United States is just too big with too small a population to compete<br>
with more densely populated countries on average internet speeds.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> The average cost to run a twisted pair today<br>
> is about $2,000. But it's a long term investment,<br>
> and the phone or cable companies could<br>
> amortise the cost over 20 years or more. A<br>
> fiber could be retrofitted for that much, on<br>
> average, and less in many cases.<br>
<br>
</div>The average cost to run twisted pair is about $2,000...to what? Per<br>
mile? From the line outside into the home? That figure doesn't make<br>
sense with a context.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> France has over 50Mbps, and it does not have<br>
> the population density of SK or Japan. Even<br>
> so, one would sensibly start in Paris.<br>
> -- Bob<br>
<br>
</div>No, it doesn't have the density of South Korea or Japan, but if you<br>
noticed my numbers, France's population density is still *three and a<br>
half times* that of the United States. That's a considerable<br>
difference—enough to explain the difference between average speeds.<br>
<font color="#888888">--<br>
john-thomas<br>
------<br>
I believe I have no prejudices whatsoever. All I need to know is that a man<br>
is a member of the human race. That's bad enough for me.<br>
Mark Twain, author and humorist (1835-1910)<br>
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