[GRLUG] Objective-C [Was: iPad]

[Michael Mol]

On 1/29/2010 6:58 AM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-01-28 at 17:43 -0500, Michael Mol wrote:
>> On 1/28/2010 5:36 PM, Ben DeMott wrote:
>>> Objective C - You know for those times when writing C made too much
>>> sense, so you had to put a language inbetween it, convert from that
>>> language to C, then compile the converted code using GCC.
>>> Hot Pockets .... (And yes that was a Jim Gaffigan reference)
>> Objective C is, more or less, a more dynamic C++. Several of the
>> features Objective C grants are reimplemented in the Qt widget system.
>> It also has similarities to Perl, PHP and Python, when you consider its
>> object behavior.
>
> Objective-C is, to me anyway, much nicer than C++;  but the big-deal
> with Objective-C wasn't so much the language [dialect?] it was the
> awesome [and commonly implemented] range of services provided by
> Foundation (the core, common, libraries).  Everyone has String/NSString
> rather than the string mess that existed in C++;

Hey, careful about the past-tense, there! Remember my day job. :P

While we use ATL/MFC, std::string and std::wstring are still widely 
used, if you believe c.o.l.c++ and c.o.l.c++.moderated.

But, yeah, a good, commonly-available library is a key hallmark for a 
productive language.

 > and there were
> 'common' libraries for database access (GDL), even precursors to LINQ
> [LINQ RULEZ!!!] in EOFilter.  Really good stuff.  NeXTStep / OpenSTEP
> was enormously advanced for its time.  Not until .NET have I found as
> broad a range of well-implemented, common [vs. grabbed from all over and
> plugged in], and *well-documented* services.
>
> And, yep, Python has almost eerie similarities to Objective-C.  Python
> also has very a high-quality module system, but the documentation can be
> pretty spartan.  SQLalchemy is a very nice replacement for GDL.  On a
> couple occasions I've cut-n-pasted GDL code from Objective-C into
> Monodevelop (in Python) and done a large part of the conversion with
> search-and-replace.
>
> I wouldn't compare anything to PHP, ugh.  Except maybe GW-Basic.  It
> could never be anything other than an insult, despite whatever technical
> similarities.

Ech. I avoid getting into emotional arguments around languages; I'd 
rarely agree with anyone. I was merely considering it from technical 
similarities.

> And I hear the tool chain on Apple is pretty nice [I don't really care].
> But the truth today is that GNUstep / Objective-C / etc.... are relics.
> The different implementations of Objective-C - and most importantly
> Foundation and its cohorts - are not trivially portable.   What Apple
> has, effectively, in their Objective-C / Cocoa / X-Code is just yet
> another proprietary development platform.

As I understand it, Apple, having bought NeXT, is actually running the 
official, original NSObject compiler/lib stack, which puts GNUStep in 
the non-standard category.

But, yeah, not trivially portable, and that's more than a bit of a pain 
if one wants to use it.

>
> Go to the GNUstep documentation, pick anywhere, maybe
> <http://www.gnustep.org/resources/documentation/Developer/EOControl/EOGenericRecord.html>,  and count the "Description forthcoming".  It has been that way for years?  Running toward a decade I'd guess.  The Apple documentation [for example:<http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/Cocoa/Reference/Foundation/Classes/NSArray_Class/NSArray.html>] is really good [essentially a forward version of the NeXT/Open documentation].  But it is only a rough guide as to what will work on a given version or edition of GNU Objective-C.
>
> So I see similarities to Perl too.... in CPAN<shudder/>.

Yeah, CPAN is pretty scary.


I don't often advocate for or against languages. However, I've had a 
couple particularly nasty experiences with both the PHP and Perl 
*communities* that's left me with a foul taste. I don't do that much 
outreach to PHP as a result of one, and I'm hesitant to use Perl for 
production environments as a result of the other. (Which is sad, because 
Perl is the highest-level programming language I'm somewhat fluent in.)