[GRLUG] Newbie Distos [Was: Re: Upgrading Firefox]

[Michael Mol]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Adam Tauno
Williams<awilliam at whitemice.org> wrote:
>> I only partially disagree with your premise; By taking things in-house
>> and changing things in a distro-local fashion, the process of
>> switching between distributions is made even more difficult than the
>> process of switching from Windows to Linux.  At the risk of Godwinning
>> the thread..."Embrace and Extend".
>> Most of what Ubuntu cleans up for the newbie could be done at a lower
>> level than a GUI applet, and putting that logic in the GUI applet
>> breaks the component model behind UNIX.  If you take much of that
>
> Maybe, but I think think the "component model behind UNIX" is mostly
> mythical, like unicorns.  One mans "component model" is another mans
> "What a hack!".  A great deal of what goes on under the guise of config
> automation is nearer the second IMHO.

One man's hack is another man's flexibility and reusability, and I
wouldn't want to code in an imperative language without OO.

>
>> logic (yes, even configuration wizardry) and implement it in the form
>> of a background daemon, you need only create a client for the
>> background daemon, and clients can be written for whatever end
>> environment needed.  NetworkManager is a step in that direction, but
>> there are only GUI clients for it available in the Ubuntu repos.
>
> Maybe I misunderstand but openSUSE uses the NetworkManager - I'm staring
> at it.  I'm pretty sure it is an option on Fedora.

I didn't mean to imply that NetworkManager was Ubuntu-specific.  I
only meant what I said explicitly: NetworkManager is a step in the
right direction. (And not just for Ubuntu, but for all
desktop-oriented distributions.)

> You are correct that
> there are a couple of categories of distribution specific behaviors -
> how they try to auto-mangle setup being one - but that is a fairly small
> circle.  And fortunately there seems to be some convergence underway
> [under the auspices of the FreeDesktop spec/group?].

I remember hearing derisive comments from developers when the
FreeDesktop project and the Linux Standard Base were announced.  Now I
can't help but think they're extraordinarily good ideas...

>
>> As a thought exercise:  Consider applications offering their
>> configuration options as Glade scripts.  Config daemon passes those
>> scripts on to the configuration client, and the configuration client
>> formats them in whatever format is needed.
>
> Would be interesting, but that is an entirely different thread: why
> can't Open Source projects cooperate regarding configuration management?
> The discussion inevitably gets drowned out by people screaming about how
> the Windows registry sucks [although that isn't remotely gernmane].

I'd love to chat about how the Windows registry could be improved, and
how Linux folks could do it better. :)

> I've watched that too often to be very interested.  For anything to
> really work well you need fairly pervasive up-stream buy-in.
>
> For a great example: Why do I have to configure authentication for PAM,
> every @*^&&(*$@ web app installed, apache, CUPS, etc... Why can't I just
> configure "this is how my system authenticates users"?

>
>> True in other mediums as well.  Go to #linux and ask a question about
>> doing something.  Even if what you need to do doesn't involve Ubuntu's
>> wizardry, if they catch on that you're using Ubuntu, you'll be sent to
>> #ubuntu.  Then all hope is lost; There's no such thing as load
>> balancing questions in a chatroom.  The same thing used to be true of
>> #linux and #debian, but #debian had more trolls that liked to insult
>> people in it.
>
> IRC has a kind of magickal gravity that seems to attract and gather
> trolls even more rapidly than other kinds of channels.
>
> The best, not perfect, solution is to education newer uses to go
> upstream for help.
>
> A developer/maintainer of project X has a high probability of being
> aware of how Ubuntu/openSUSE/Fedora trashes their config files. :)  More
> likely anyway than anyone on ubuntu/opensuse/fedora-discuss.

This is why I like going to the IRC channels for the projects in
question.  They don't require registering with a forum.  They don't
require joining a mailing list.  If you get a response, it tends to be
quick. (Though that's a big IF.)

-- 
:wq