From jjesse at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 20:26:11 2012 From: jjesse at gmail.com (Jonathan Jesse) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 20:26:11 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Codeweavers Crossover Linux Free Today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well that's a bummer that I'm a bit behind on my email as its no longer being offered On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 3:58 PM, John Wesorick wrote: > For those of you who need to run Windows programs on Linux for some reason > (gaming, professional, etc), I just noticed that Codeweavers is offering 1 > year of support/updates for Crossover Linux (or Crossover Mac, for those > people) today only. If you don't know, Crossover is basically > Wine/Winetricks/PlayOnLinux, but has better support and is not free (in > either sense). I do believe they help improve Wine as well. > > Their website: http://codeweavers.com/ > Link to the giveaway: http://flock.codeweavers.com/ > Press Release: http://www.codeweavers.com/about/general/press/20121029/ > > It works pretty well, they had a giveaway 4 years ago, when the price of > gas dropped below $3. I used it for a while to get Office working on my > home computer when I was working in an MS shop. > > -John > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From redheadedrodney at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 03:10:12 2012 From: redheadedrodney at gmail.com (rodney nunya) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 03:10:12 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Hello Message-ID: Hello, I am new to this group but I wanted to know if anyone here has experience with Embedded devices? I have ARM based boards that I will be using for some projects I am working on and was hoping someone in the group is used to working with these cute little computers. Specifically I am working with Freescale based boards. I plan to use a ubuntu 12.04.1 vm box as my development machine and will be running 12.04 on the arm boards. These boards will be run in various configurations including, stripped down and headless, full blown ubuntu 12.04 and things inbetween. So I am hoping that there are some here that can help me out when I get stuck. I am a student at Ferris in GR working on degrees in Software Engineering and Computer Security and I have applications I will be working on for both degrees. Rodney -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leapole at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 12:24:35 2012 From: leapole at gmail.com (Josh) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 12:24:35 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Hello In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am currently playing with ARM stuff, I have a few raspberry pi, some dockstarts and pogoplugs. I hope to see you at the lug meeting on wedsday and we can chat some more on it. On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:10 AM, rodney nunya wrote: > Hello, I am new to this group but I wanted to know if anyone here has > experience with Embedded devices? > > I have ARM based boards that I will be using for some projects I am > working on and was hoping someone in the group is used to working with > these cute little computers. > > Specifically I am working with Freescale based boards. > > I plan to use a ubuntu 12.04.1 vm box as my development machine and will > be running 12.04 on the arm boards. > > These boards will be run in various configurations including, stripped > down and headless, full blown ubuntu 12.04 and things inbetween. > > So I am hoping that there are some here that can help me out when I get > stuck. > > I am a student at Ferris in GR working on degrees in Software Engineering > and Computer Security and I have applications I will be working on for both > degrees. > > Rodney > > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leapole at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 12:24:46 2012 From: leapole at gmail.com (Josh) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 12:24:46 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Hello In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: Oh welcome to the list btw On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Josh wrote: > I am currently playing with ARM stuff, I have a few raspberry pi, some > dockstarts and pogoplugs. I hope to see you at the lug meeting on wedsday > and we can chat some more on it. > > On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:10 AM, rodney nunya wrote: > >> Hello, I am new to this group but I wanted to know if anyone here has >> experience with Embedded devices? >> >> I have ARM based boards that I will be using for some projects I am >> working on and was hoping someone in the group is used to working with >> these cute little computers. >> >> Specifically I am working with Freescale based boards. >> >> I plan to use a ubuntu 12.04.1 vm box as my development machine and will >> be running 12.04 on the arm boards. >> >> These boards will be run in various configurations including, stripped >> down and headless, full blown ubuntu 12.04 and things inbetween. >> >> So I am hoping that there are some here that can help me out when I get >> stuck. >> >> I am a student at Ferris in GR working on degrees in Software Engineering >> and Computer Security and I have applications I will be working on for both >> degrees. >> >> Rodney >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> grlug mailing list >> grlug at grlug.org >> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ebever at researchintegration.org Sat Nov 3 12:40:00 2012 From: ebever at researchintegration.org (Eric Beversluis) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 12:40:00 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] non-Linux/Word for Mac Message-ID: <1351960800.2006.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Each time I do command-S in Word for Mac 2011 (14.2.3); OSX 10.6.8, some form of message, seemingly an error message, appears in the "saving" dialog below the message that the document is being saved. But the dialog disappears too soon for me to read the message, even after multiple attempts. Does anyone know if there's a place where Word logs these messages? The saves seem to be working ok, but it's disconcerting not to know what the message is. Thanks. From bob.kline at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 20:34:41 2012 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 20:34:41 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 12.10 Message-ID: It's been out a while now. Anyone here using it have anything really good or bad to say about it? i.e., any good reason to upgrade from 12.04 LTS? -- Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjesse at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 20:51:25 2012 From: jjesse at gmail.com (Jonathan Jesse) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 20:51:25 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 12.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Upgrade broke the NAT adapter for VirtualBox as in removed it entirerly so not sure whats going on Been having some issues w/ the Dash but it might just be my video apater On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Bob Kline wrote: > It's been out a while now. Anyone > here using it have anything really good > or bad to say about it? > > i.e., any good reason to upgrade from > 12.04 LTS? > > -- Bob > > > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtr at jrichards.org Mon Nov 5 21:06:47 2012 From: jtr at jrichards.org (John-Thomas Richards) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 21:06:47 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 12.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121106020647.GA16755@mint> On Mon, Nov 05, 2012 at 08:34:41PM -0500, Bob Kline wrote: > It's been out a while now. Anyone here using it have anything really > good or bad to say about it? > > i.e., any good reason to upgrade from 12.04 LTS? You mean other than it's Ubuntu? :) -- john-thomas ------ Better than a thousand days of diligent study is one day with a great teacher. Japanese proverb From roger.roelofs at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 21:18:53 2012 From: roger.roelofs at gmail.com (Roger Roelofs) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 21:18:53 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 12.10 In-Reply-To: <20121106020647.GA16755@mint> References: <20121106020647.GA16755@mint> Message-ID: I've been using it for a week or maybe two. As usual they have a couple wrinkles to iron out. I can hardly tell the difference, so I don't see any reason to hurry the upgrade. On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 9:06 PM, John-Thomas Richards wrote: > On Mon, Nov 05, 2012 at 08:34:41PM -0500, Bob Kline wrote: > > It's been out a while now. Anyone here using it have anything really > > good or bad to say about it? > > > > i.e., any good reason to upgrade from 12.04 LTS? > > You mean other than it's Ubuntu? :) > -- > john-thomas > ------ > Better than a thousand days of diligent study is one day with a great > teacher. > Japanese proverb > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- Roger Roger Roelofs Know what you value. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edwardo.fuentes at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 07:16:02 2012 From: edwardo.fuentes at gmail.com (Edwardo Fuentes) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 07:16:02 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 12.10 In-Reply-To: References: <20121106020647.GA16755@mint> Message-ID: i have been on 12.10 for about a week. I installed straight to 12.10 so never played with 12.04 LTS Chrome & Rhythm box both keep crashing and sometimes movie player. I have had the most fun with 10.04 LTS & never had these crashing issues. Thanks; Edwardo 616.834.3023 On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 9:18 PM, Roger Roelofs wrote: > I've been using it for a week or maybe two. As usual they have a couple > wrinkles to iron out. I can hardly tell the difference, so I don't see any > reason to hurry the upgrade. > > > On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 9:06 PM, John-Thomas Richards wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 05, 2012 at 08:34:41PM -0500, Bob Kline wrote: >> > It's been out a while now. Anyone here using it have anything really >> > good or bad to say about it? >> > >> > i.e., any good reason to upgrade from 12.04 LTS? >> >> You mean other than it's Ubuntu? :) >> -- >> john-thomas >> ------ >> Better than a thousand days of diligent study is one day with a great >> teacher. >> Japanese proverb >> _______________________________________________ >> grlug mailing list >> grlug at grlug.org >> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug >> > > > > -- > Roger > > Roger Roelofs > Know what you value. > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob.kline at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 08:38:48 2012 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 08:38:48 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 12.10 In-Reply-To: References: <20121106020647.GA16755@mint>

Message-ID: Interesting. I've been seeing chrome crash a fair bit on 12.04 LTS. Never saw that before. I removed almost all the extensions, but that didn't help. Audio Player crashed on many versions, but VLC is quite stable. And there are issues with YouTube on Chrome, but not Firefox. Otherwise things are fine....... :-( -- Bob On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Edwardo Fuentes wrote: > i have been on 12.10 for about a week. > I installed straight to 12.10 so never played with 12.04 LTS > Chrome & Rhythm box both keep crashing and sometimes movie player. > I have had the most fun with 10.04 LTS & never had these crashing issues. > > Thanks; > Edwardo > 616.834.3023 > > > > > On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 9:18 PM, Roger Roelofs wrote: > >> I've been using it for a week or maybe two. As usual they have a couple >> wrinkles to iron out. I can hardly tell the difference, so I don't see any >> reason to hurry the upgrade. >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 9:06 PM, John-Thomas Richards wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Nov 05, 2012 at 08:34:41PM -0500, Bob Kline wrote: >>> > It's been out a while now. Anyone here using it have anything really >>> > good or bad to say about it? >>> > >>> > i.e., any good reason to upgrade from 12.04 LTS? >>> >>> You mean other than it's Ubuntu? :) >>> -- >>> john-thomas >>> ------ >>> Better than a thousand days of diligent study is one day with a great >>> teacher. >>> Japanese proverb >>> _______________________________________________ >>> grlug mailing list >>> grlug at grlug.org >>> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Roger >> >> Roger Roelofs >> Know what you value. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> grlug mailing list >> grlug at grlug.org >> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug >> > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brousch at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 09:24:55 2012 From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 09:24:55 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] GRLUG Social Message-ID: After a couple of weeks off, the Grand Rapids Linux Social is back on schedule. Join us tomorrow at The Warehouse to mingle with your fellow geeks and talk about things like Linux, open source, and RaspberryPi. We also have free wifi, so bring your laptop or devices to show off. When: Wednesday, Nov 7, 2012 Where: The Warehouse, 112 Baldwin St, Jenison, MI -- Ben Rousch brousch at gmail.com http://clusterbleep.net/ From john at wesorick.com Tue Nov 6 10:16:35 2012 From: john at wesorick.com (John Wesorick) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 10:16:35 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 12.10 In-Reply-To: References: <20121106020647.GA16755@mint>

Message-ID: They seemed to have made LDAP integration slightly less buggy. With 12.04 I could login using LDAP w/o issue maybe 1 out of 5 times. With 12.10, I CAN'T login maybe 1 out of 5 or 6 times. I did have issues with the proprietary NVidia driver, but the open-source driver works well enough that I didn't play around with it. I like the Google Docs integration with the file lens in the Dash. Web apps seem like they may be cool, but I haven't played with them enough. The Dash is better (after you remove the Amazon/Ubuntu One lens via 'sudo apt-get remove unity-lens-shopping', and you can now add/remove apps right from the Dash by right-clicking on them. You can also now close windows from the all windows view (ctrl-w), which is nice. The last improvement I noticed is better global menu integration with more apps. Libre Office now actually uses it and doesn't have issues where you can't get back to an open doc after using another app. Also, for those with Chrome issues try using Chromium (the open-source version of Chrome, it's in the repos). It seems to be slightly more stable, and the official Chrome hasn't been updated for 12.10 yet. Chrome has some dependency issues if you watch it install, but it seems to still install fine, which may be part of the bugginess. Overall I think it is worth it to upgrade. On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Bob Kline wrote: > Interesting. I've been seeing > chrome crash a fair bit on 12.04 LTS. > Never saw that before. I removed almost > all the extensions, but that didn't help. > Audio Player crashed on many versions, but > VLC is quite stable. And there are > issues with YouTube on Chrome, but > not Firefox. > > Otherwise things are fine....... :-( > > -- Bob > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Edwardo Fuentes > wrote: > >> i have been on 12.10 for about a week. >> I installed straight to 12.10 so never played with 12.04 LTS >> Chrome & Rhythm box both keep crashing and sometimes movie player. >> I have had the most fun with 10.04 LTS & never had these crashing issues. >> >> Thanks; >> Edwardo >> 616.834.3023 >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 9:18 PM, Roger Roelofs wrote: >> >>> I've been using it for a week or maybe two. As usual they have a couple >>> wrinkles to iron out. I can hardly tell the difference, so I don't see any >>> reason to hurry the upgrade. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 9:06 PM, John-Thomas Richards wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 05, 2012 at 08:34:41PM -0500, Bob Kline wrote: >>>> > It's been out a while now. Anyone here using it have anything really >>>> > good or bad to say about it? >>>> > >>>> > i.e., any good reason to upgrade from 12.04 LTS? >>>> >>>> You mean other than it's Ubuntu? :) >>>> -- >>>> john-thomas >>>> ------ >>>> Better than a thousand days of diligent study is one day with a great >>>> teacher. >>>> Japanese proverb >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> grlug mailing list >>>> grlug at grlug.org >>>> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Roger >>> >>> Roger Roelofs >>> Know what you value. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> grlug mailing list >>> grlug at grlug.org >>> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> grlug mailing list >> grlug at grlug.org >> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug >> > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob.kline at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 10:49:33 2012 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 10:49:33 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] Not Linux - for sale. Message-ID: Two System76 Netbooks for sale. Each has been used only tens of hours. Each has a dual core Atom CPU. Both have the maximum compliment of 2GB of memory. My wife and I no longer travel enough to justify holding on to them. Each cost $400 to $450 new. * Newer one. Wireless b/g/n. 500GB. Double size battery for 6 to 8 hours of operation. * Older one. Wireles b/g. I have a wireless n dongle for it. 160GB drive. Netbooks are no longer in vogue, but these units are built like brick privies, and will last forever, so they might fill a void for someone. Each has Lubuntu installed. Contract me at rvkline at comcast.net with a serious offer if interested. Silly offers won't be acknowledged. -- Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jtr at jrichards.org Tue Nov 6 12:31:22 2012 From: jtr at jrichards.org (John-Thomas Richards) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:31:22 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] Not Linux - for sale. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121106173122.GA29114@mint> On Tue, Nov 06, 2012 at 10:49:33AM -0500, Bob Kline wrote: > Two System76 Netbooks for sale. Each has been used only tens of > hours. Each has a dual core Atom CPU. Both have the maximum > compliment of 2GB of memory. My wife and I no longer travel enough to > justify holding on to them. Each cost $400 to $450 new. > > * Newer one. Wireless b/g/n. 500GB. Double size battery for 6 to 8 > hours of operation. > > * Older one. Wireles b/g. I have a wireless n dongle for it. 160GB > drive. > > Netbooks are no longer in vogue, but these units are built like brick > privies, and will last forever, so they might fill a void for someone. > > Each has Lubuntu installed. > > Contract me at rvkline at comcast.net with a serious offer if interested. > Silly offers won't be acknowledged. How is the video performance? My wife has a netbook running Manjaro and video performance is terrible (particularly with flash video). -- john-thomas ------ Democracy is good. I say this because other systems are worse. Jawaharlal Nehru From bob.kline at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 13:45:42 2012 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:45:42 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] Not Linux - for sale. In-Reply-To: <20121106173122.GA29114@mint> References: <20121106173122.GA29114@mint> Message-ID: I watched Hulu on one of them now and then. No problems. -- Bob On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 12:31 PM, John-Thomas Richards wrote: > On Tue, Nov 06, 2012 at 10:49:33AM -0500, Bob Kline wrote: > > Two System76 Netbooks for sale. Each has been used only tens of > > hours. Each has a dual core Atom CPU. Both have the maximum > > compliment of 2GB of memory. My wife and I no longer travel enough to > > justify holding on to them. Each cost $400 to $450 new. > > > > * Newer one. Wireless b/g/n. 500GB. Double size battery for 6 to 8 > > hours of operation. > > > > * Older one. Wireles b/g. I have a wireless n dongle for it. 160GB > > drive. > > > > Netbooks are no longer in vogue, but these units are built like brick > > privies, and will last forever, so they might fill a void for someone. > > > > Each has Lubuntu installed. > > > > Contract me at rvkline at comcast.net with a serious offer if interested. > > Silly offers won't be acknowledged. > > How is the video performance? My wife has a netbook running Manjaro > and video performance is terrible (particularly with flash video). > -- > john-thomas > ------ > Democracy is good. I say this because other systems are worse. > Jawaharlal Nehru > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brousch at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 08:46:49 2012 From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:46:49 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] Davenport looking for Linux instructor Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Tony McCutchen Date: Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:43 AM Subject: Are you heading up the GRLUG To: brousch at gmail.com I am looking for a daytime Linux instructor for winter (January). Can you help put the word out to contact me if there is anyone interested ? Please call me at 616.706.2838 NETW217 UNIX Operating System 3 CR This course covers operating system concepts in the UNIX environment. Topics include terminology, UNIX features and commands, UNIX system administration, and UNIX as a network server. Prerequisite(s): CISP111 NETW235 UNIX/Linux Server Administration 3 CR This course builds on previous experience in a UNIX environment to provide students with all the standard and advanced techniques necessary to set up and maintain a secure, effective Linux environment. Emphasis will be on using UNIX/Linux as a network server. Students will create and maintain users and groups, set up web, mail, and FTP services, and perform other UNIX/Linux server administration tasks. Prerequisite(s): NETW217 -- Associate Department Chair, Networking Grand Rapids/Holland/Kalamazoo/Battle Creek 6191 Kraft Avenue S.E. Grand Rapids MI 49512 (616) 871-3981 (616) 554-5225 fax amccutchen at davenport.edu -- Ben Rousch brousch at gmail.com http://clusterbleep.net/ From casey at grlug.org Wed Nov 7 10:03:47 2012 From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:03:47 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls Message-ID: I've always wanted to figure out how to Block Robocalls but now that someone's offering up real cash!!! What do you guys think? Can we figure it out? http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx?et_cid=2933257&et_rid=41416611&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.scientificcomputing.com%2fnews-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx Casey DuBois 616-808-6942 casey at grlug.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From timschmidt at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:10:05 2012 From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:10:05 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Difficult to do with only access to the phone line, but it would be comparatively easy for the phone company itself to block these calls. They'd have to implement an algorithm not unlike those used to detect credit card fraud, or spam. If they detect 'spammy' behavior from an incoming line, they block it. Of course, this might not make them so popular with the robocallers, who pay for all those phone lines. Less politically risky to try to block the calls at the receiving end. On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Casey DuBois wrote: > I've always wanted to figure out how to Block Robocalls but now that > someone's offering up real cash!!! > > What do you guys think? Can we figure it out? > > http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx?et_cid=2933257&et_rid=41416611&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.scientificcomputing.com%2fnews-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx > > Casey DuBois > 616-808-6942 > casey at grlug.org > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug From mikemol at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:15:11 2012 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:15:11 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: > Difficult to do with only access to the phone line, but it would be > comparatively easy for the phone company itself to block these calls. > They'd have to implement an algorithm not unlike those used to detect > credit card fraud, or spam. If they detect 'spammy' behavior from an > incoming line, they block it. Of course, this might not make them so > popular with the robocallers, who pay for all those phone lines. Less > politically risky to try to block the calls at the receiving end. Easier to do with an intermediary like Google Voice. I bet there's a real business model available in *becoming* an intermediary you route your calls through. It depends, of course, on not using CallerID; instead, you have to use actual circuit address details. (It's been a long time, so I don't remember the exact terminology...) As the intermediary, you check the incoming call for a "spamminess" factor. If it feels spammy, you put it through an audio captcha or other challenge/response verification step. -- :wq From flanderb at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:17:00 2012 From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:17:00 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: Does Google Voice have an api? The only way I could see to do this would be a rather large invasion of privacy and only work for Google voice customers. Send every incoming number to a service that checks to see if that same number called other GV users in a pattern indicative of a robo call. Um, Mike just replied with what I was thinking. Share and Enjoy Ben On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: > Difficult to do with only access to the phone line, but it would be > comparatively easy for the phone company itself to block these calls. > They'd have to implement an algorithm not unlike those used to detect > credit card fraud, or spam. If they detect 'spammy' behavior from an > incoming line, they block it. Of course, this might not make them so > popular with the robocallers, who pay for all those phone lines. Less > politically risky to try to block the calls at the receiving end. > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Casey DuBois wrote: > > I've always wanted to figure out how to Block Robocalls but now that > > someone's offering up real cash!!! > > > > What do you guys think? Can we figure it out? > > > > > http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx?et_cid=2933257&et_rid=41416611&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.scientificcomputing.com%2fnews-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx > > > > Casey DuBois > > 616-808-6942 > > casey at grlug.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > grlug mailing list > > grlug at grlug.org > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From casey at grlug.org Wed Nov 7 10:18:45 2012 From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:18:45 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: Can we just implement a Google voice solution for ourselves?? On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Benjamin Flanders wrote: > Does Google Voice have an api? The only way I could see to do this would > be a rather large invasion of privacy and only work for Google voice > customers. Send every incoming number to a service that checks to see if > that same number called other GV users in a pattern indicative of a robo > call. > > Um, Mike just replied with what I was thinking. > > > Share and Enjoy > Ben > > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: > >> Difficult to do with only access to the phone line, but it would be >> comparatively easy for the phone company itself to block these calls. >> They'd have to implement an algorithm not unlike those used to detect >> credit card fraud, or spam. If they detect 'spammy' behavior from an >> incoming line, they block it. Of course, this might not make them so >> popular with the robocallers, who pay for all those phone lines. Less >> politically risky to try to block the calls at the receiving end. >> >> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Casey DuBois wrote: >> > I've always wanted to figure out how to Block Robocalls but now that >> > someone's offering up real cash!!! >> > >> > What do you guys think? Can we figure it out? >> > >> > >> http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx?et_cid=2933257&et_rid=41416611&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.scientificcomputing.com%2fnews-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx >> > >> > Casey DuBois >> > 616-808-6942 >> > casey at grlug.org >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > grlug mailing list >> > grlug at grlug.org >> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug >> _______________________________________________ >> grlug mailing list >> grlug at grlug.org >> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug >> > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- Casey DuBois 616-808-6942 casey at grlug.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From timschmidt at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:21:33 2012 From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:21:33 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: > The only way I could see to do this would be a rather large invasion of privacy You're right. It _is_ a huge invasion of privacy. But it's one that happened long ago. The phone company (specifically - the one servicing the robocaller) has all the data necessary to do this already. They're just not using it for this particular purpose. From timschmidt at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:26:38 2012 From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:26:38 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Michael Mol wrote: > As the intermediary, you check the incoming call for a "spamminess" > factor. If it feels spammy, you put it through an audio captcha or > other challenge/response verification step. Audio captchas will be cracked the same way regular ones have been. There's huge incentive, and automation already built into the process. The only way it would really work is to do per-line spamminess, and block the whole line if it crosses a threshold, until a human gets in contact with the company to rectify it. Unfortunately, that's a pretty heavy hammer to occasionally drop on regular folk. From mikemol at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:26:57 2012 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:26:57 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Casey DuBois wrote: > Can we just implement a Google voice solution for ourselves?? Absolutely. There are a bunch of existing VOIP telco providers, and I don't believe it's a high barrier to get into that market. It's just that most of the tools suck. (And I don't think anyone's really implemented anything as nice as Google Voice's automatic transcripts.) From brousch at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:28:45 2012 From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:28:45 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: I have been toying with the idea of crowd-sourcing the reporting. When you get a robocall, you use an app to report the call. When enough reports have come in, the number is added to a list, like a SORBS for phone numbers. I already have a "Blocked Callers" group in my contacts to which I add any numbers I don't want to ring through. I also have a rule in Google Voice that turns on call screening for calls from those numbers. So the final step is to import the spam call list into that contact on a regular interval. But there are problems with this system, just like any other spam reporting system: fake/blocked caller ID and 4chan deciding to get the white house's phone number on the list are two examples. On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: >> The only way I could see to do this would be a rather large invasion of privacy > > You're right. It _is_ a huge invasion of privacy. But it's one that > happened long ago. The phone company (specifically - the one > servicing the robocaller) has all the data necessary to do this > already. They're just not using it for this particular purpose. > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug -- Ben Rousch brousch at gmail.com http://clusterbleep.net/ From timschmidt at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:29:41 2012 From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:29:41 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: It won't work if you're just a small VoIP provider - not enough traffic crosses your border for you to get a useful estimate of spaminess. You either have to be the size of google, or the company serving the robocaller (so you can see all the robocaller's data, and not just one or two of it's calls). From mikemol at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:29:48 2012 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:29:48 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Michael Mol wrote: >> As the intermediary, you check the incoming call for a "spamminess" >> factor. If it feels spammy, you put it through an audio captcha or >> other challenge/response verification step. > > Audio captchas will be cracked the same way regular ones have been. > There's huge incentive, and automation already built into the process. > > The only way it would really work is to do per-line spamminess, and > block the whole line if it crosses a threshold, until a human gets in > contact with the company to rectify it. > > Unfortunately, that's a pretty heavy hammer to occasionally drop on > regular folk. That's why I mentioned challenge/response; that's a bit harder to crack. (And there are other things you could do, such as allowing a passphrase bypass.) There's also call holding; "$snippet has called, and would like to speak to you. Would you like to accept this call?" That kind of service has been in use for decades. Automate it, and you can configure schedules, degrees of access, etc. And accumulate denied calls for spam/ham classification. -- :wq From mikemol at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:33:23 2012 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:33:23 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: > It won't work if you're just a small VoIP provider - not enough > traffic crosses your border for you to get a useful estimate of > spaminess. You either have to be the size of google, or the company > serving the robocaller (so you can see all the robocaller's data, and > not just one or two of it's calls). To that end, you start examining concepts like DNSBLs, like Ben suggested. You can even make those pay-for-access with reciprocal data sharing agreements if you get beyond a particular corpus size; that would help reduce the amount of junk data that gets in. *None* of this would work against the Obama campaign's final push: They crowdsourced their robocalling by giving their supporters numbers to call. At that point, you're stuck with call screening and/or whitelists. -- :wq From roger.roelofs at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:33:52 2012 From: roger.roelofs at gmail.com (Roger Roelofs) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:33:52 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: Google Voice is already doing spam checking. If you haven't used the web interface recently, you will be greeted by a dialog asking if you want to turn this service on. I have no idea how effective it is since I haven't published my Google Voice number. I'm in the process of migrating my old landline number by first porting it to a trac phone. On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Michael Mol wrote: > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Casey DuBois wrote: > > Can we just implement a Google voice solution for ourselves?? > > Absolutely. There are a bunch of existing VOIP telco providers, and I > don't believe it's a high barrier to get into that market. It's just > that most of the tools suck. > > (And I don't think anyone's really implemented anything as nice as > Google Voice's automatic transcripts.) > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- Roger Roger Roelofs Know what you value. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From timschmidt at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:34:35 2012 From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:34:35 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: It might be easier to implement an economic solution - make robocalls too expensive to be worthwhile. Just spitballing, but something like legislating that phone companies must charge each account $1.00 per outgoing call, to be refunded at the end of the month for accounts which have made fewer than, say, 1000 calls? Maybe that's ridiculous. IDK On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Michael Mol wrote: > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: >> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Michael Mol wrote: >>> As the intermediary, you check the incoming call for a "spamminess" >>> factor. If it feels spammy, you put it through an audio captcha or >>> other challenge/response verification step. >> >> Audio captchas will be cracked the same way regular ones have been. >> There's huge incentive, and automation already built into the process. >> >> The only way it would really work is to do per-line spamminess, and >> block the whole line if it crosses a threshold, until a human gets in >> contact with the company to rectify it. >> >> Unfortunately, that's a pretty heavy hammer to occasionally drop on >> regular folk. > > That's why I mentioned challenge/response; that's a bit harder to > crack. (And there are other things you could do, such as allowing a > passphrase bypass.) > > There's also call holding; "$snippet has called, and would like to > speak to you. Would you like to accept this call?" > > That kind of service has been in use for decades. Automate it, and you > can configure schedules, degrees of access, etc. And accumulate denied > calls for spam/ham classification. > > -- > :wq > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug From awilliam at whitemice.org Wed Nov 7 10:41:56 2012 From: awilliam at whitemice.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 10:41:56 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1352302916.5174.2.camel@linux-nysu.site> On Wed, 2012-11-07 at 10:03 -0500, Casey DuBois wrote: > I've always wanted to figure out how to Block Robocalls but now that > someone's offering up real cash!!! > What do you guys think? Can we figure it out? > http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx?et_cid=2933257&et_rid=41416611&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.scientificcomputing.com%2fnews-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx This guy owes me $50K; my method is 100% effective. Don't answer the phone; even easier if you turn off the ringer. Seriously, I don't get how this drives people crazy. I pay $$$ to have a phone so I can make calls - generally to people who are paid to answer them. From timschmidt at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:43:15 2012 From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:43:15 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: DNSBLs sound like a good model to emulate. The only question I have is how hard is it to acquire use of a different native phone network address to bypass the DNSBL? From awilliam at whitemice.org Wed Nov 7 10:43:37 2012 From: awilliam at whitemice.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 10:43:37 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <1352303017.5174.3.camel@linux-nysu.site> On Wed, 2012-11-07 at 10:26 -0500, Tim Schmidt wrote: > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Michael Mol wrote: > > As the intermediary, you check the incoming call for a "spamminess" > > factor. If it feels spammy, you put it through an audio captcha or > > other challenge/response verification step. > Audio captchas will be cracked the same way regular ones have been. > There's huge incentive, and automation already built into the process. > The only way it would really work is to do per-line spamminess, and > block the whole line if it crosses a threshold, until a human gets in > contact with the company to rectify it. > Unfortunately, that's a pretty heavy hammer to occasionally drop on > regular folk. And would involve the provider cutting / blocking access to someone who is paying them for access. Never happen. From timschmidt at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:46:31 2012 From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:46:31 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: <1352303017.5174.3.camel@linux-nysu.site> References:

<1352303017.5174.3.camel@linux-nysu.site> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Adam Tauno Williams > And would involve the provider cutting / blocking access to someone who > is paying them for access. Never happen. Agreed. Just because it's technically the best place to implement the solution, doesn't mean it'll ever happen. There's also the safety and access to 911 and other emergency services to consider. But all that would be required is to whitelist all emergency services, nation wide. There's undoubtedly already a registry of such numbers somewhere. Pretty easy fix, but not one you'd want to overlook. From mikemol at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:48:07 2012 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:48:07 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: > DNSBLs sound like a good model to emulate. The only question I have > is how hard is it to acquire use of a different native phone network > address to bypass the DNSBL? Not easy; you're talking circuit IDs now, not portable numbers. You'd have to have the telco come out and add new circuits, then remove the old ones. That's going to be a lot of work in labor, and expensive as hell. What will follow from there will be reminiscent of the phreaker days. Mostly, bad actors dialing into PBXs with unsecured outdials, and making their calls from there. -- :wq From awilliam at whitemice.org Wed Nov 7 10:51:36 2012 From: awilliam at whitemice.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 10:51:36 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <1352303496.5174.6.camel@linux-nysu.site> On Wed, 2012-11-07 at 10:43 -0500, Tim Schmidt wrote: > DNSBLs sound like a good model to emulate. The only question I have > is how hard is it to acquire use of a different native phone network > address to bypass the DNSBL? Absolutely trivial. Blocking or faking caller-id information is both *EASY* and even faking is pretty-much legal. If you are a third-party integrator [not the telco] that is all the information you are going to have access to, and its junk. From mikemol at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:51:54 2012 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:51:54 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

<1352303017.5174.3.camel@linux-nysu.site> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Adam Tauno Williams >> And would involve the provider cutting / blocking access to someone who >> is paying them for access. Never happen. > > Agreed. Just because it's technically the best place to implement the > solution, doesn't mean it'll ever happen. > > There's also the safety and access to 911 and other emergency services > to consider. But all that would be required is to whitelist all > emergency services, nation wide. There's undoubtedly already a > registry of such numbers somewhere. Pretty easy fix, but not one > you'd want to overlook. It's like the open Internet; you want *everyone* to have access, and you want the filtering to be the recipient's responsibility, possibly with cooperation with other recipients. Filtering at the source carries absolutely rotten, terrible consequences, far worse than the present scenario. -- :wq From awilliam at whitemice.org Wed Nov 7 10:52:47 2012 From: awilliam at whitemice.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 10:52:47 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

<1352303017.5174.3.camel@linux-nysu.site> Message-ID: <1352303567.5174.7.camel@linux-nysu.site> On Wed, 2012-11-07 at 10:51 -0500, Michael Mol wrote: > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Adam Tauno Williams > >> And would involve the provider cutting / blocking access to someone who > >> is paying them for access. Never happen. > > Agreed. Just because it's technically the best place to implement the > > solution, doesn't mean it'll ever happen. > > There's also the safety and access to 911 and other emergency services > > to consider. But all that would be required is to whitelist all > > emergency services, nation wide. There's undoubtedly already a > > registry of such numbers somewhere. Pretty easy fix, but not one > > you'd want to overlook. > It's like the open Internet; you want *everyone* to have access, and > you want the filtering to be the recipient's responsibility, possibly > with cooperation with other recipients. > Filtering at the source carries absolutely rotten, terrible > consequences, far worse than the present scenario. +1 From mikemol at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:56:32 2012 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:56:32 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: <1352303496.5174.6.camel@linux-nysu.site> References:

<1352303496.5174.6.camel@linux-nysu.site> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > On Wed, 2012-11-07 at 10:43 -0500, Tim Schmidt wrote: >> DNSBLs sound like a good model to emulate. The only question I have >> is how hard is it to acquire use of a different native phone network >> address to bypass the DNSBL? > > Absolutely trivial. Blocking or faking caller-id information is both > *EASY* and even faking is pretty-much legal. If you are a third-party > integrator [not the telco] that is all the information you are going to > have access to, and its junk. I expect one would *become* a telco; access to the circuit ID is pretty much mandatory for a system like this to work. Curiously, for a while, T-Mobile had me on a trial service which gave me the "real" source phone numbers for phone calls. It was actually pretty confusing, though; calls from Arizona would look like they came from Georgia. Calls from California looked like they came from New York. Apparently some telcos are willing to deal in the necessary data. -- :wq From timschmidt at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:58:28 2012 From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:58:28 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: <1352303567.5174.7.camel@linux-nysu.site> References:

<1352303017.5174.3.camel@linux-nysu.site> <1352303567.5174.7.camel@linux-nysu.site> Message-ID: And likely to experience about as much success as spam blocking on the open internet. In other words, for common folk, very little. At least without someone like Google doing the heavy lifting for them. In which case, you might as well route everything through google, and let them do it the easy way. A solution that works for 5% of the population doesn't really work at all. From lvl at omnitec.net Wed Nov 7 11:01:44 2012 From: lvl at omnitec.net (L. V. Lammert) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:01:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Casey DuBois wrote: > I've always wanted to figure out how to Block Robocalls but now that > someone's offering up real cash!!! > > What do you guys think? Can we figure it out? > Ahh, .. the solution has been here for many years - a blackbox that requries touching a number to get through. Example, Bogen Friday. Used it on our office line for about 10 years. Lee From lvl at omnitec.net Wed Nov 7 11:04:26 2012 From: lvl at omnitec.net (L. V. Lammert) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:04:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Benjamin Flanders wrote: > Does Google Voice have an api? The only way I could see to do this would > be a rather large invasion of privacy and only work for Google voice > customers. Send every incoming number to a service that checks to see if > that same number called other GV users in a pattern indicative of a robo > call. > Not that simple to implement - anyone can block callerID when placing the call - only the 911 service, banks, or DHS can penetrate. Lee From mikemol at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 11:11:34 2012 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 11:11:34 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

<1352303017.5174.3.camel@linux-nysu.site> <1352303567.5174.7.camel@linux-nysu.site> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: > And likely to experience about as much success as spam blocking on the > open internet. > > In other words, for common folk, very little. At least without > someone like Google doing the heavy lifting for them. In which case, > you might as well route everything through google, and let them do it > the easy way. A solution that works for 5% of the population doesn't > really work at all. Tell me: Why does Google's system work so well? I'm going to assume the answer is that they have access to more data. The answer: share more data! -- :wq From jwm8351 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 11:17:45 2012 From: jwm8351 at yahoo.com (Joseph McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:17:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <1352305065.10988.YahooMailNeo@web122203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> How about a list of BAD companies on the web. Humans could then boycott the robo's! ? Joe ________________________________ From: L. V. Lammert To: "Mailing List for LUG in greater Grand Rapids, MI area." Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2012 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Benjamin Flanders wrote: > Does Google Voice have an api?? The only way I could see to do this would > be a rather large invasion of privacy and only work for Google voice > customers.? Send every incoming number to a service that checks to see if > that same number called other GV users in a pattern indicative of a robo > call. > Not that simple to implement - anyone can block callerID when placing the call - only the 911 service, banks, or DHS can penetrate. ??? Lee _______________________________________________ grlug mailing list grlug at grlug.org http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lvl at omnitec.net Wed Nov 7 11:28:15 2012 From: lvl at omnitec.net (L. V. Lammert) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 10:28:15 -0600 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: <1352305065.10988.YahooMailNeo@web122203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com > References:

<1352305065.10988.YahooMailNeo@web122203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201211071628.qA7GSFFt017223@Mail.omnitec.net> At 10:17 AM 11/7/2012, Joseph McLaughlin wrote: >How about a list of BAD companies on the web. Humans could then >boycott the robo's! How would one 'boycott'? Hang up on them ? If the system detects an answer on the call, it automatically flags you for another call no matter what you do with this call. Prime example - "Card Services". Lee From timschmidt at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 11:44:14 2012 From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 11:44:14 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

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Message-ID: I think the answer is doubly that they have more data, and that they keep it secret. Sharing the data means sharing it with the spammers, and in my short time as an email admin, subscribing to the popular spam lists only blocked about half our incoming spam. Even with greylisting, lots of filter tweaking for company-specific domain terms, scads of training, and measures I've since forgotten, we still regularly received spam. Those guys are really good at what they do. I'll freely admit that having an expectation of 0 false positives or negatives is unattainable. However, that _is_ the goal. And even google misclassifies a message or two a month on me. From mikemol at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 11:51:29 2012 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 11:51:29 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

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Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: > I think the answer is doubly that they have more data, and that they > keep it secret. > > Sharing the data means sharing it with the spammers, and in my short > time as an email admin, subscribing to the popular spam lists only > blocked about half our incoming spam. Even with greylisting, lots of > filter tweaking for company-specific domain terms, scads of training, > and measures I've since forgotten, we still regularly received spam. > Those guys are really good at what they do. Yes, having the data secret makes it more difficult for spammers to know how to work around it. At the same time, having the data shared makes it easier to accumulate a corpus that's more difficult to work around. Having additional types of data that are shared increases that level of difficulty exponentially. For example, consider sharing keyword lists known to primarily exist in spam data. Consider sharing keyword composition analyses showing codepoint makeup for messages which are typically spam. Consider showing header chains which are typically spam. The more dimensions you come from, the more likely their text munging algorithms will cross a previously-safe boundary while they try to fit within a new one. -- :wq From megadave at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 11:57:45 2012 From: megadave at gmail.com (megadave) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 11:57:45 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: I use google voice, and get no robocalls at all, despite that being the main number I provide anywhere I need to provide a number. Its set to ring through on calls from specific known contacts only - everyone else gets voicemail. If something calls and leaves no message, I can just ignore it. If its an important call from a real person, they would have left a message. And FWIW, google voice offers an option as follows: Global Spam Filtering - Send calls and text messages from numbers identified as spam by Google directly to the Spam folder On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Benjamin Flanders wrote: > Does Google Voice have an api? The only way I could see to do this would be > a rather large invasion of privacy and only work for Google voice customers. > Send every incoming number to a service that checks to see if that same > number called other GV users in a pattern indicative of a robo call. > > Um, Mike just replied with what I was thinking. > > > Share and Enjoy > Ben > > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: >> >> Difficult to do with only access to the phone line, but it would be >> comparatively easy for the phone company itself to block these calls. >> They'd have to implement an algorithm not unlike those used to detect >> credit card fraud, or spam. If they detect 'spammy' behavior from an >> incoming line, they block it. Of course, this might not make them so >> popular with the robocallers, who pay for all those phone lines. Less >> politically risky to try to block the calls at the receiving end. >> >> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Casey DuBois wrote: >> > I've always wanted to figure out how to Block Robocalls but now that >> > someone's offering up real cash!!! >> > >> > What do you guys think? Can we figure it out? >> > >> > >> > http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx?et_cid=2933257&et_rid=41416611&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.scientificcomputing.com%2fnews-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx >> > >> > Casey DuBois >> > 616-808-6942 >> > casey at grlug.org >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > grlug mailing list >> > grlug at grlug.org >> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug >> _______________________________________________ >> grlug mailing list >> grlug at grlug.org >> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug From leapole at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 12:06:41 2012 From: leapole at gmail.com (Josh) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 12:06:41 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

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Message-ID: haha wow good conversation pic! I will say the only way to stop these robot calls is to setup your phone with an asterisk server, have the server answer and if all it gets is electronic voice or nothing for 1 second, then ring it thru to the phones. That way you will not be filtering based on number but the ability of the robocallers to act/sound human. Some of the things I recommend you try when receiving a robocaller is to hit numbers looking for an IVR menu. Maybe they left it open and you could reprogram it. And Rock Lobster guys Rock Lobster. On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Michael Mol wrote: > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: > > I think the answer is doubly that they have more data, and that they > > keep it secret. > > > > Sharing the data means sharing it with the spammers, and in my short > > time as an email admin, subscribing to the popular spam lists only > > blocked about half our incoming spam. Even with greylisting, lots of > > filter tweaking for company-specific domain terms, scads of training, > > and measures I've since forgotten, we still regularly received spam. > > Those guys are really good at what they do. > > Yes, having the data secret makes it more difficult for spammers to > know how to work around it. > > At the same time, having the data shared makes it easier to accumulate > a corpus that's more difficult to work around. Having additional types > of data that are shared increases that level of difficulty > exponentially. > > For example, consider sharing keyword lists known to primarily exist > in spam data. Consider sharing keyword composition analyses showing > codepoint makeup for messages which are typically spam. Consider > showing header chains which are typically spam. > > The more dimensions you come from, the more likely their text munging > algorithms will cross a previously-safe boundary while they try to fit > within a new one. > > -- > :wq > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patrick at upmerchants.com Wed Nov 7 12:08:34 2012 From: patrick at upmerchants.com (Patrick Goupell) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 12:08:34 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

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Message-ID: <509A9592.3080900@upmerchants.com> On 11/07/2012 11:44 AM, Tim Schmidt wrote: > I think the answer is doubly that they have more data, and that they > keep it secret. > > Sharing the data means sharing it with the spammers, and in my short > time as an email admin, subscribing to the popular spam lists only > blocked about half our incoming spam. Even with greylisting, lots of > filter tweaking for company-specific domain terms, scads of training, > and measures I've since forgotten, we still regularly received spam. > Those guys are really good at what they do. > > I'll freely admit that having an expectation of 0 false positives or > negatives is unattainable. However, that _is_ the goal. And even > google misclassifies a message or two a month on me. > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > I have followed an email anti spam project for a few years. It is called esva - email scanning virtual appliance. I used it for a while on a very small mail server and it worked great. You can check it out at www.esvacommunity.com From awilliam at whitemice.org Wed Nov 7 12:36:17 2012 From: awilliam at whitemice.org (Adam Tauno Williams) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 12:36:17 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

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Message-ID: <1352309777.2467.1.camel@p105s6207.site> On Wed, 2012-11-07 at 12:06 -0500, Josh wrote: > haha wow good conversation pic! > I will say the only way to stop these robot calls is to setup your > phone with an asterisk server, have the server answer and if all it > gets is electronic voice or nothing for 1 second, then ring it thru to > the phones. That way you will not be filtering based on number but > the ability of the robocallers to act/sound human. Like a voice grey-list. And interesting idea, and irritating for the caller, but a longer hold would be better - that way it drives up the caller's cost. > Some of the things I recommend you try when receiving a robocaller is > to hit numbers looking for an IVR menu. Maybe they left it open and > you could reprogram it. From casey at grlug.org Wed Nov 7 14:15:13 2012 From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 14:15:13 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: <1352309777.2467.1.camel@p105s6207.site> References:

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<1352309777.2467.1.camel@p105s6207.site> Message-ID: On the flip side is there a way when we get a robocall to forward them (at their expense) to India or some far off land? On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > On Wed, 2012-11-07 at 12:06 -0500, Josh wrote: > > haha wow good conversation pic! > > > I will say the only way to stop these robot calls is to setup your > > phone with an asterisk server, have the server answer and if all it > > gets is electronic voice or nothing for 1 second, then ring it thru to > > the phones. That way you will not be filtering based on number but > > the ability of the robocallers to act/sound human. > > Like a voice grey-list. And interesting idea, and irritating for the > caller, but a longer hold would be better - that way it drives up the > caller's cost. > > > Some of the things I recommend you try when receiving a robocaller is > > to hit numbers looking for an IVR menu. Maybe they left it open and > > you could reprogram it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- Casey DuBois 616-808-6942 casey at grlug.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patrick at upmerchants.com Wed Nov 7 14:41:12 2012 From: patrick at upmerchants.com (Patrick Goupell) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 14:41:12 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

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<1352309777.2467.1.camel@p105s6207.site> Message-ID: <509AB958.3060704@upmerchants.com> On 11/07/2012 02:15 PM, Casey DuBois wrote: > On the flip side is there a way when we get a robocall to forward them > (at their expense) to India or some far off land? What about those 900 numbers? Just forward it to one of those. Patrick From casey at grlug.org Wed Nov 7 15:29:22 2012 From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:29:22 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: <509AB958.3060704@upmerchants.com> References:

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<1352309777.2467.1.camel@p105s6207.site> <509AB958.3060704@upmerchants.com> Message-ID: How do I test this to guarantee it doesn't bill me??? On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Patrick Goupell wrote: > > > On 11/07/2012 02:15 PM, Casey DuBois wrote: > >> On the flip side is there a way when we get a robocall to forward them >> (at their expense) to India or some far off land? >> > > What about those 900 numbers? Just forward it to one of those. > > Patrick > > ______________________________**_________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-**bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- Casey DuBois 616-808-6942 casey at grlug.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patrick at upmerchants.com Wed Nov 7 15:38:08 2012 From: patrick at upmerchants.com (Patrick Goupell) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 15:38:08 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

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<1352309777.2467.1.camel@p105s6207.site> <509AB958.3060704@upmerchants.com> Message-ID: <509AC6B0.5040404@upmerchants.com> On 11/07/2012 03:29 PM, Casey DuBois wrote: > How do I test this to guarantee it doesn't bill me??? > I have no idea how to test it. From mikemol at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 15:47:35 2012 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:47:35 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls In-Reply-To: References:

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