From geektoyz at gmail.com  Thu May  1 00:29:16 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 00:29:16 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Need help to stop BSOD
In-Reply-To: <1209594290.3965.20.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <aecf8abe0804300906i18c485b8oa4e0e0f2170a16@mail.gmail.com>
	<005e01c8aae2$6fb1c030$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<aecf8abe0804300956p4c1b43ffl808ea97bbcb202c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<001f01c8aae4$26107fa0$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<aecf8abe0804301005l5aa545c5o924032b51d5c6f76@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209594290.3965.20.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10804302129v6d7d87f3v98fffae621e1b9b6@mail.gmail.com>

Geesh!  $300+ for a PSU alone Professor?  I can't imagine what the
whole rig cost?  I'd be a little miffed too.  Anyhoot, sorry we can't
(or perhaps choose not to) be of much help with Win BSOD.  As
previously stated, this is a Linux-interest list/group and though
you'd surely find similar interests in the M$ world here (particularly
as it pertains to gaming), perhaps a Windows-interest list/group may
be more apt/willing to help.

No need to leave this list.  Feel free to post Linux/opensource
questions at will.  They're all welcome!

cheers,
G-

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Greg Folkert <greg at gregfolkert.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 13:05 -0400, Professor Inuyasha wrote:
>  > it is legal vista, I did report and I updated driver, still same issue
>  >
>  > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Rich Nagel <networkman at triton.net> wrote:
>  > > Have you reported any of these problems to Microsoft yet?  It is a legal
>  > > Vista right?
>  > >
>  > > Rich
>
>  Well, to be honest even legal means nothing.
>
>  There have been wide spread problem with the ICH9 and other Sound
>  Systems due to the "DRM" protected and chained outputs. This is by
>  design. There are some sound chipsets that either can't or won't be able
>  to keep up with FULL 9.1 Surround sound output from games, turn down you
>  output to "plain stereo" or something like that. It should help.
>
>  The ACPI thing is well know to typically be a motherboard firmware
>  problem, even in the Linux world.
>
>
> --
>  greg at gregfolkert.net
>  PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
>  Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
>  Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
>  Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
>
> _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Thu May  1 07:17:30 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 07:17:30 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Email overload
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0804301547460.26905@boktor>
References: <4818CA6A.8060205@kkmfg.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0804301547460.26905@boktor>
Message-ID: <4819A6CA.1050402@kkmfg.com>

Topher wrote:
> Yes, we've had that a couple times here in the last month.  It's called a 
> Joe Job, you can read about it here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_job
>
> There's not much you can do about it.  During the fallout from something 
> like that, I *do* blackhole bounce reports.  It's just not worth dealing 
> with them.
>
> Topher
> Manager of Internet Services
> Cornerstone University Radio
>   

I don't know if I'd consider it a Joe Job in so much as it's a massive 
amount of backscatter. But several months back I did come to my senses 
and reconfigure our mailserver to validate email before accepting it. So 
as far as I know we're sending out basically no backscatter. Maybe the 
spammers figure that out and start really using your email as the from 
address (well, to be fair they have it set to the postmaster at our 
domain. But, I get those messages.)

At any rate, it's slowed some now but I still had 400 or more messages 
when I got in this morning.

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Thu May  1 07:36:05 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 07:36:05 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Email overload
In-Reply-To: <4819A6CA.1050402@kkmfg.com>
References: <4818CA6A.8060205@kkmfg.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0804301547460.26905@boktor>
	<4819A6CA.1050402@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <4819AB25.4010408@kkmfg.com>

Collin wrote:
> Topher wrote:
>   
>> Yes, we've had that a couple times here in the last month.  It's called a 
>> Joe Job, you can read about it here:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_job
>>
>> There's not much you can do about it.  During the fallout from something 
>> like that, I *do* blackhole bounce reports.  It's just not worth dealing 
>> with them.
>>
>> Topher
>> Manager of Internet Services
>> Cornerstone University Radio
>>   
>>     
>
> I don't know if I'd consider it a Joe Job in so much as it's a massive 
> amount of backscatter. But several months back I did come to my senses 
> and reconfigure our mailserver to validate email before accepting it. So 
> as far as I know we're sending out basically no backscatter. Maybe the 
> spammers figure that out and start really using your email as the from 
> address (well, to be fair they have it set to the postmaster at our 
> domain. But, I get those messages.)
>
> At any rate, it's slowed some now but I still had 400 or more messages 
> when I got in this morning.
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>   
Oh... cute... Now I get it... I'm starting to get bounce messages which 
say that the user wouldn't accept email from me (though I didn't send 
it) because my email address is a known spamming address... It really is 
a joe job... Cute.... At least they had the common courtesy to use the 
postmaster address and not my real one. Are spam blockers really so 
stupid as to trust the from address or even pay any attention to it!?!

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Thu May  1 08:31:23 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:31:23 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Need help to stop BSOD
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10804302129v6d7d87f3v98fffae621e1b9b6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aecf8abe0804300906i18c485b8oa4e0e0f2170a16@mail.gmail.com>
	<005e01c8aae2$6fb1c030$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<aecf8abe0804300956p4c1b43ffl808ea97bbcb202c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<001f01c8aae4$26107fa0$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<aecf8abe0804301005l5aa545c5o924032b51d5c6f76@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209594290.3965.20.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<8b72b8d10804302129v6d7d87f3v98fffae621e1b9b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805010531h46c09056tc5335132a54fe1e1@mail.gmail.com>

thank you godwin, that's what I was look for help, most insult me
about it, but only 3 helped me

reason why people insult me because they have no idea how I felt about
BSOD while I am gamer


On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Godwin <geektoyz at gmail.com> wrote:
> Geesh!  $300+ for a PSU alone Professor?  I can't imagine what the
> whole rig cost?  I'd be a little miffed too.  Anyhoot, sorry we can't
> (or perhaps choose not to) be of much help with Win BSOD.  As
> previously stated, this is a Linux-interest list/group and though
> you'd surely find similar interests in the M$ world here (particularly
> as it pertains to gaming), perhaps a Windows-interest list/group may
> be more apt/willing to help.
>
> No need to leave this list.  Feel free to post Linux/opensource
> questions at will.  They're all welcome!
>
> cheers,
> G-
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Greg Folkert <greg at gregfolkert.net> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 13:05 -0400, Professor Inuyasha wrote:
> >  > it is legal vista, I did report and I updated driver, still same issue
> >  >
> >  > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Rich Nagel <networkman at triton.net> wrote:
> >  > > Have you reported any of these problems to Microsoft yet?  It is a legal
> >  > > Vista right?
> >  > >
> >  > > Rich
> >
> >  Well, to be honest even legal means nothing.
> >
> >  There have been wide spread problem with the ICH9 and other Sound
> >  Systems due to the "DRM" protected and chained outputs. This is by
> >  design. There are some sound chipsets that either can't or won't be able
> >  to keep up with FULL 9.1 Surround sound output from games, turn down you
> >  output to "plain stereo" or something like that. It should help.
> >
> >  The ACPI thing is well know to typically be a motherboard firmware
> >  problem, even in the Linux world.
> >
> >
> > --
> >  greg at gregfolkert.net
> >  PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
> >  Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
> >  Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
> >  Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >  grlug mailing list
> >  grlug at grlug.org
> >  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ubber::Geek
> http://grlug.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Thu May  1 08:40:52 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:40:52 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Need help to stop BSOD
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0805010531h46c09056tc5335132a54fe1e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aecf8abe0804300906i18c485b8oa4e0e0f2170a16@mail.gmail.com>
	<005e01c8aae2$6fb1c030$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<aecf8abe0804300956p4c1b43ffl808ea97bbcb202c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<001f01c8aae4$26107fa0$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<aecf8abe0804301005l5aa545c5o924032b51d5c6f76@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209594290.3965.20.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<8b72b8d10804302129v6d7d87f3v98fffae621e1b9b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805010531h46c09056tc5335132a54fe1e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805010540p21d0defdgc77398c1c0288a20@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 8:31 AM, Professor Inuyasha
<profinuyasha at gmail.com> wrote:
> thank you godwin, that's what I was look for help, most insult me
>  about it, but only 3 helped me
>
>  reason why people insult me because they have no idea how I felt about
>  BSOD while I am gamer

No one insulted you - despite asking your question in the wrong place.
 How you feel about experiencing BSODs, and the fact that you like to
play games simply aren't relevant.

--tim

From Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com  Thu May  1 10:00:34 2008
From: Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com (Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:00:34 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <10090457.28961209580421790.JavaMail.root@mail.mtd-inc.com>
Message-ID: <OF077F4CBF.CCBA1956-ON8525743C.0042E6AB-8525743C.004CF142@spartanstore.com>

Members of GRLUG...

I was out of the office yesterday afternoon, so when I arrived this 
morning, I had 98 emails to catch up on.  92 were from GRLUG.
Some were about cat5 cables & a few were about spam, but the vast majority 
were concerning a dialog about a hostile attitude.

While I'm neither qualified to address the Vista issue NOR the purpose of 
this Linux Users Group, I do have a few thoughts I'd like to offer.
Please be advised...these observations are in not in support of either 
camp, but rather intended to offer some helpful insight that may have been 
missed in the conversation. After having read the entire thread in 
sequence, I've come to a few conclusions regarding GRLUG & Linux.

A little background.... I am extremely new to linux.  I've managed to 
install a version from a LiveCD and then promptly render it unusable. I'm 
about 2 weeks into the entire process.  I use WindowsXP for nearly all my 
computing & am by no means, a guru in THAT either.  I am currently 
"registered" at about 5-6 forums/user groups/support sites/ etc. and this 
is only within the last year or so, so this on-line collaboration is also 
quite new to me. 

Now...
I posted a question on a linux forum & after a week of not even a 
response, I "asked if I could ask" the question on another (language) 
forum.
This showed both the courtesy the site deserved, and the preparedness on 
my part to abide by the forums reply.  This was not done here on the GRLUG 
site. 

I was "politely" told that I should go ahead & ask in the chat room, but 
not make it a formal post because while this was not a Linux forum, there 
was a lot of linux knowledge here & they'd be happy to offer what they 
could.  They too, pointed me to several sites that could offer additional 
help.  They also warned me to "be prepared for some good natured tongue 
lashings".  This set the stage completely. All expectations were up front 
& on the table. 

What this illustrated to me was a community that is willing to go the 
extra steps to help a (by this time) very distressed fellow student of the 
*nix world.  Based on the dialog, I feel I'm the very person the GRLUG is 
trying to attract.  I'm attempting to move to the Linux world, and require 
some "mentoring in the process".  However, I'm now left wondering if this 
group can... 1)really offer the help I'm going to need, and  2) if it will 
be worth the price in having to deal with the personality issues. 

I think the professor made some profound misjudgements, but the groups 
"collective" image is at stake with EVERY reply, & I didn't see anywhere, 
where that was even taken into consideration.  Sure, you think Linux is 
better than Windows, and even saying so is not harmful in itself, but if 
the humor is not explicitly stated, then you run the risk of offending 
folks.  The fallout is just not worth the risk, in my opinion.

In the question I referenced earlier, I was "chastised severely" for 
running Linux on an "such antique box".   The idea that it was all in fun, 
was never a question....maybe that's just me, but maybe it's also that the 
folks there understand that the written word holds no tone of voice, hence 
the proliferation of emoticons.  The are always 2,3,4 ways to say the same 
thing, and even if someone like the professor fires the first 
flamethrower, we owe it to the rest of the community to give him/her the 
benefit of the doubt.  When we don't "turn the other cheek" we start the 
downward spiral that only can end in hurt feelings.  The "Where's the 
payback in it" reply was way off  base.  THAT is not why we help each 
other.

Most people would never knowingly adopt a belligerent attitude towards the 
very people they're asking for help.  We must consider this persons 
frustration level, before adding to it by sending a retaliatory response. 
A simple "We're sorry, but that doesn't belong in this forum" even if it 
has to be repeated by 2-3 folks, is a better, more professional way of 
handling this type of issue.  To he "outside world" (ie. me) this dialog 
appeared to be a bunch of gamers bullying the kid in the horned rimmed 
glasses. 

...& professor, you blew it.  These folks here WANT to help you, & they 
offered you what they could, so.... 
if you ever do this again, "I breaka you face".  ;-)

Just my thoughts... thanks for listening.  I hope this "opinion" neither 
offends nor empowers one side or the other, but rather offers that all 
important "disinterested 3rd party observation". 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080501/0105ac01/attachment-0001.htm 

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Thu May  1 10:23:04 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:23:04 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <OF077F4CBF.CCBA1956-ON8525743C.0042E6AB-8525743C.004CF142@spartanstore.com>
References: <10090457.28961209580421790.JavaMail.root@mail.mtd-inc.com>
	<OF077F4CBF.CCBA1956-ON8525743C.0042E6AB-8525743C.004CF142@spartanstore.com>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805010723u6f5f7d98h19ae31fe7b4d0a2b@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 10:00 AM,  <Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com> wrote:
>
> Members of GRLUG...
>
> I was out of the office yesterday afternoon, so when I arrived this morning,
> I had 98 emails to catch up on.  92 were from GRLUG.
> Some were about cat5 cables & a few were about spam, but the vast majority
> were concerning a dialog about a hostile attitude.
>
> While I'm neither qualified to address the Vista issue NOR the purpose of
> this Linux Users Group, I do have a few thoughts I'd like to offer.
> Please be advised...these observations are in not in support of either camp,
> but rather intended to offer some helpful insight that may have been missed
> in the conversation. After having read the entire thread in sequence, I've
> come to a few conclusions regarding GRLUG & Linux.
>
> A little background.... I am extremely new to linux.  I've managed to
> install a version from a LiveCD and then promptly render it unusable. I'm
> about 2 weeks into the entire process.  I use WindowsXP for nearly all my
> computing & am by no means, a guru in THAT either.  I am currently
> "registered" at about 5-6 forums/user groups/support sites/ etc. and this is
> only within the last year or so, so this on-line collaboration is also quite
> new to me.
>
> Now...
> I posted a question on a linux forum & after a week of not even a response,
> I "asked if I could ask" the question on another (language) forum.
> This showed both the courtesy the site deserved, and the preparedness on my
> part to abide by the forums reply.  This was not done here on the GRLUG
> site.
>
> I was "politely" told that I should go ahead & ask in the chat room, but not
> make it a formal post because while this was not a Linux forum, there was a
> lot of linux knowledge here & they'd be happy to offer what they could.
> They too, pointed me to several sites that could offer additional help.
> They also warned me to "be prepared for some good natured tongue lashings".
> This set the stage completely. All expectations were up front & on the
> table.
>
> What this illustrated to me was a community that is willing to go the extra
> steps to help a (by this time) very distressed fellow student of the *nix
> world.  Based on the dialog, I feel I'm the very person the GRLUG is trying
> to attract.  I'm attempting to move to the Linux world, and require some
> "mentoring in the process".  However, I'm now left wondering if this group
> can... 1)really offer the help I'm going to need, and  2) if it will be
> worth the price in having to deal with the personality issues.
>
> I think the professor made some profound misjudgements, but the groups
> "collective" image is at stake with EVERY reply, & I didn't see anywhere,
> where that was even taken into consideration.  Sure, you think Linux is
> better than Windows, and even saying so is not harmful in itself, but if the
> humor is not explicitly stated, then you run the risk of offending folks.
> The fallout is just not worth the risk, in my opinion.

I still dont care which OS is better, I only want get OS to become
100% stable without any BSOD

>
> In the question I referenced earlier, I was "chastised severely" for running
> Linux on an "such antique box".   The idea that it was all in fun, was never
> a question....maybe that's just me, but maybe it's also that the folks there
> understand that the written word holds no tone of voice, hence the
> proliferation of emoticons.  The are always 2,3,4 ways to say the same
> thing, and even if someone like the professor fires the first flamethrower,
> we owe it to the rest of the community to give him/her the benefit of the
> doubt.  When we don't "turn the other cheek" we start the downward spiral
> that only can end in hurt feelings.  The "Where's the payback in it" reply
> was way off  base.  THAT is not why we help each other.
>
> Most people would never knowingly adopt a belligerent attitude towards the
> very people they're asking for help.  We must consider this persons
> frustration level, before adding to it by sending a retaliatory response.  A
> simple "We're sorry, but that doesn't belong in this forum" even if it has
> to be repeated by 2-3 folks, is a better, more professional way of handling
> this type of issue.  To he "outside world" (ie. me) this dialog appeared to
> be a bunch of gamers bullying the kid in the horned rimmed glasses.
>
> ...& professor, you blew it.  These folks here WANT to help you, & they
> offered you what they could, so....
> if you ever do this again, "I breaka you face".  ;-)

no offense, only 3 people helped me, I only want to get rid of BSOD

"I breaka you face"
Who would say it?

by the way, I've found some gamer in GRLUG so they can help me to solve issue

>
> Just my thoughts... thanks for listening.  I hope this "opinion" neither
> offends nor empowers one side or the other, but rather offers that all
> important "disinterested 3rd party observation".
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

people who went to GRLUG meeting, they recognized me that I am deaf
and they just get deal with it

-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Thu May  1 10:24:33 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:24:33 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <OF077F4CBF.CCBA1956-ON8525743C.0042E6AB-8525743C.004CF142@spartanstore.com>
References: <10090457.28961209580421790.JavaMail.root@mail.mtd-inc.com>
	<OF077F4CBF.CCBA1956-ON8525743C.0042E6AB-8525743C.004CF142@spartanstore.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805010724o7accb023t183e31c020f40e58@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 10:00 AM,  <Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com> wrote:
> Now...
> I posted a question on a linux forum & after a week of not even a response,
> I "asked if I could ask" the question on another (language) forum.
> This showed both the courtesy the site deserved, and the preparedness on my
> part to abide by the forums reply.  This was not done here on the GRLUG
> site.

Indeed.  An ounce of courtesy goes a long way on the part of the
person requesting a favor.

> What this illustrated to me was a community that is willing to go the extra
> steps to help a (by this time) very distressed fellow student of the *nix
> world.  Based on the dialog, I feel I'm the very person the GRLUG is trying
> to attract.  I'm attempting to move to the Linux world, and require some
> "mentoring in the process".  However, I'm now left wondering if this group
> can... 1)really offer the help I'm going to need, and  2) if it will be
> worth the price in having to deal with the personality issues.

I'm sure someone here can help with almost any issue you might
encounter.  Dealing with other people's personality 'quirks' is the
price of all social interaction.  It's more than fair.

> I think the professor made some profound misjudgements, but the groups
> "collective" image is at stake with EVERY reply, & I didn't see anywhere,
> where that was even taken into consideration.  Sure, you think Linux is
> better than Windows, and even saying so is not harmful in itself, but if the
> humor is not explicitly stated, then you run the risk of offending folks.
> The fallout is just not worth the risk, in my opinion.

Misjudgments indeed.  You yourself appear to assume that we are all
here to maximize the number of people using Linux.  Not so.  I'm here
to help people who - in my opinion - have demonstrated a willingness
to help themselves.  Others have entirely different motivations.

_We are not a singular unit with a singular purpose_

Thinking of us as one leads to many errors in judgment.

> Most people would never knowingly adopt a belligerent attitude towards the
> very people they're asking for help.  We must consider this persons
> frustration level, before adding to it by sending a retaliatory response.  A
> simple "We're sorry, but that doesn't belong in this forum" even if it has
> to be repeated by 2-3 folks, is a better, more professional way of handling
> this type of issue.  To he "outside world" (ie. me) this dialog appeared to
> be a bunch of gamers bullying the kid in the horned rimmed glasses.

If people here didn't _volunteer_ their own hard-earned knowledge and
time, they may be more interested in living up to your definition of
professionalism.

> ...& professor, you blew it.  These folks here WANT to help you, & they
> offered you what they could, so....

Agree entirely.  The only price for all this free help and knowledge
is to learn how to ask for it competently and politely.  Failing to
expend such minimal effort is what earns scorn and derision.  The
relative experience of the questioner has little bearing.

--tim

From networkman at triton.net  Thu May  1 10:40:14 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (networkman at triton.net)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:40:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] Need help to stop BSOD
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0805010531h46c09056tc5335132a54fe1e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aecf8abe0804300906i18c485b8oa4e0e0f2170a16@mail.gmail.com>
	<005e01c8aae2$6fb1c030$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<aecf8abe0804300956p4c1b43ffl808ea97bbcb202c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<001f01c8aae4$26107fa0$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<aecf8abe0804301005l5aa545c5o924032b51d5c6f76@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209594290.3965.20.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<8b72b8d10804302129v6d7d87f3v98fffae621e1b9b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805010531h46c09056tc5335132a54fe1e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4982.69.11.205.103.1209652814.squirrel@remotemail.triton.net>

Apologies, Professor, if you took offense at any of my comments.

The fact of the matter is, I am still primarily a Windows person, and yes,
I play a number of games too, primarily the "Rainbow Six Three" series,
most recently "Vegas", and while I've not seen any BSOD errors, I do
encounter in-game errors related to my ATI video card(in XP Pro, latest
drivers and patches, yada yada).

But, gamer or no, I still wouldn't take my Microsoft Windows issues to a
Linux Users Group for support.  I've no doubt that there are some very
talented individuals in this group - in fact, I've already seen that in
the work they've done and tried to provide thus far with the IPAQ & the
Geexbox software.  Still, those skills in a totally different OS may not
cross-over to games designed to run in another totally different OS.

If you want to find support for Vista & gaming, I suggest you let your
fingers do the walking as it were and let Google or some other search be
your friend for a while.  Anandtech, Tom's Hardware, and any number of
others sites have tons of forums geared specifically to your issues.  Use
them.

'Nuff said.


> thank you godwin, that's what I was look for help, most insult me
> about it, but only 3 helped me
>
> reason why people insult me because they have no idea how I felt about
> BSOD while I am gamer

< SNIP! >



From verduin at ameritech.net  Thu May  1 11:03:29 2008
From: verduin at ameritech.net (George (Skip) VerDuin)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 11:03:29 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <OF077F4CBF.CCBA1956-ON8525743C.0042E6AB-8525743C.004CF142@spartanstore.com>
References: <OF077F4CBF.CCBA1956-ON8525743C.0042E6AB-8525743C.004CF142@spartanstore.com>
Message-ID: <1209654209.30546.124.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>

Thank you for putting words to this Bill...

On Thu, 2008-05-01 at 10:00 -0400, Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com
wrote:
> 
> Members of GRLUG... 
> 
> I was out of the office yesterday afternoon, so when I arrived this
> morning, I had 98 emails to catch up on.  92 were from GRLUG. 
> Some were about cat5 cables & a few were about spam, but the vast
> majority were concerning a dialog about a hostile attitude. 
Seldom have I seen such expression of testosterone.  I too found the
"hostile" thread late in it's development and came away with similar
feelings as yourself.  You have done yeoman service in presenting a view
that I have little to add to.

My small addition is to underscore two of you points with a slightly
different perspective.

First, I agree professor did bring much upon himself by not heeding the
underlying advise of being in "the wrong spot" for the question he
posed.  OK, the bar thing is in fact "cute", but as you point out humor
is based on experiences perhaps not available to professor and while he
held out his disability as a shield it is not relevant.  I find it sad
his tenacity is blunted by his narrowness of focus.

Second, this group is selective in response and it is sad commentary to
spill so much emotional content over features that even the O/S author
says should be invisible to the computer user.  I too find Linux
superior in many respects to all other offerings, but like others before
me I'll vote with my pocket book and fight for the right of choice.  Let
he who makes choices wrestle with the consequences, and let those who
bring product to market be encumbered with suitable support.

I'm sad you had to resort to other venues for the answers to your
question since this group does in fact seem to contain the talent for a
straight forward response.  Like all other organizations, success or
failure rests with the participants in the venture.  If I were to pray,
my prayer would be for the success of GRLUG as an oasis of knowledge
dispensed by willing partners in a venture that taps the mentoring
spirit in gentile participants.  Attitudes like your own go a long way
toward that vision.


Warmest regards from here,
George


From thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com  Thu May  1 11:32:30 2008
From: thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com (Joe Vanderstelt)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 11:32:30 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Ati and Nvidia
Message-ID: <cea1322a0805010832i58ff9a4ao7f9447b786e2de5b@mail.gmail.com>

Here is my situation:

I have a Nvidie GeForce 7600 APG card connected to dual monitors.
I also have a Ati PCI card that I would like to connect for 2 more monitors.

Any ideas on the best way to do this or if it possible or even smart.

I have tried congifuring X to use both the nvidia and open source ati
drivers to no real luck. and the nvidia glx does not like the ati
card. I tried using nvidia drier and the vga driver that didn't really
work ether.

I don't card about hardware acceleration on the ati card but i do on
the nvidia card (my main monitors).

Any ideas?

From slestak989 at gmail.com  Thu May  1 11:44:44 2008
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 11:44:44 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Ati and Nvidia
In-Reply-To: <cea1322a0805010832i58ff9a4ao7f9447b786e2de5b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cea1322a0805010832i58ff9a4ao7f9447b786e2de5b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ef8ba6540805010844m701c79b7yd70e53cb40eb5d09@mail.gmail.com>

What distro are you using?  This certainly looks challenging.

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Thu May  1 11:50:03 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin Kidder)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 11:50:03 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0805010723u6f5f7d98h19ae31fe7b4d0a2b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10090457.28961209580421790.JavaMail.root@mail.mtd-inc.com>	<OF077F4CBF.CCBA1956-ON8525743C.0042E6AB-8525743C.004CF142@spartanstore.com>
	<aecf8abe0805010723u6f5f7d98h19ae31fe7b4d0a2b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4819E6AB.6040205@kkmfg.com>


>
> I still dont care which OS is better, I only want get OS to become
> 100% stable without any BSOD
>   

Even linux is not 100% stable without it's equivalent of a BSOD on 
faulty hardware. Heck, I'd bet that it could happen on hardware that is 
otherwise good -- Just not as much as it happens in windows. Asking for 
perfect stability is a pipedream. Even more so if you are referring to 
consumer grade equipment. Server hardware is a lot more fault tolerant 
and redundant.
> no offense, only 3 people helped me, I only want to get rid of BSOD
>
> "I breaka you face"
> Who would say it?
>
> by the way, I've found some gamer in GRLUG so they can help me to solve issue
>   

What exactly makes you think that a "gamer" would somehow make someone 
qualified to help you? Are normal support technicians incapable of 
dealing with hardware and/or software issues? What you need is someone 
familiar with your hardware and with windows diagnosis not someone who 
can beat COD4 blindfolded and with a broken arm. I wish you luck in 
tracking down what's going wrong though!
> people who went to GRLUG meeting, they recognized me that I am deaf
> and they just get deal with it
I'm hard of hearing myself but it has nothing to do with the price of 
tea in China or the phase of the moon. I'd say that your trouble in 
dealing with the people on this list has nothing to do with deafness and 
a lot to do with grammar and overall structure of your replies. I know 
that you are deaf, and that's all well and good, but are you from a 
foreign country as well? I ask in all seriousness as knowing something 
like "yes, I'm from China originally" could be helpful in better 
understanding what you're trying to say.

From thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com  Thu May  1 11:57:12 2008
From: thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com (Joe Vanderstelt)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 11:57:12 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Ati and Nvidia
In-Reply-To: <ef8ba6540805010844m701c79b7yd70e53cb40eb5d09@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cea1322a0805010832i58ff9a4ao7f9447b786e2de5b@mail.gmail.com>
	<ef8ba6540805010844m701c79b7yd70e53cb40eb5d09@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cea1322a0805010857n2116fd34ob061bf74cec071a8@mail.gmail.com>

Ubuntu 8.04

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 11:44 AM, Steve Romanow <slestak989 at gmail.com> wrote:
> What distro are you using?  This certainly looks challenging.
>  _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

From Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com  Thu May  1 12:10:05 2008
From: Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com (Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:10:05 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0805010723u6f5f7d98h19ae31fe7b4d0a2b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF8A26C6C3.74411BB2-ON8525743C.00565ED7-8525743C.0058CCE6@spartanstore.com>

OK,  Obviously I'm not the communicator that I thought I was.... my 
bad....

Here's some parting shots (at me) before I finally let this 
go.....sometimes I am helpful TO A FAULT...

Proffessor-

I'm sorry.  The "breaka you face" line, is a slang term used in hollywood 
mafia movies to warn people of impending pain.
I should have been more cogniciant of your english slang knowledge base. 
It won't happen again.

Tim-

I'm sorry you don't consider the "Users GROUP" as a single unit.  Doesn't 
the group at least have an informal if not formal charter, to foster the 
acceptance of Linux, & to increase it's user base. I realize group 
dynamics can't be totally void of personal agendas, but at least in the 
GROUP setting, I thought by deffinition, they should play a subordinate 
role.  I'm glad you help where you can, but in your email, you made it 
sound as though you were part of only a small minority.  I doubt that's 
the case & hence, that whole "benefit of the doubt" thing.  ;-)

George-
"yoeman service" ?  I doubt  it.   I'm just a ol' phart that likes to butt 
in where he thinks he can offer an idea that maybe others have missed... 
NOT because anybody ASK for his opinion.  If I wait till they ask, it'd be 
too late, they would have already made "a horrible mistake". 
Yeah, my wife rolls her eyes like that, too.  ;-)

And that site that offered no help.... that wasn't THIS group.  I asked 
the question "rephrased a bit" a week later & got a little bit better 
response. 
I haven't asked THIS group anything....YET!   But I'm about to...  Just to 
point out again, my extreeme ignorance.  ;-) 

Now, having blabbed waaaaay more that I'd intended...   WHAT exactly is a 
BSOD?  How do I know if mine is failing, about to fail, or if I even have 
one at all?   Thanks.  Feel free to email me if you don't see the need to 
burden the entire GRLUG board with the answer.  Thanks.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080501/9a7fd4a3/attachment-0001.htm 

From jtr at jrichards.org  Thu May  1 12:27:52 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:27:52 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <OF8A26C6C3.74411BB2-ON8525743C.00565ED7-8525743C.0058CCE6@spartanstore.com>
References: <aecf8abe0805010723u6f5f7d98h19ae31fe7b4d0a2b@mail.gmail.com>
	<OF8A26C6C3.74411BB2-ON8525743C.00565ED7-8525743C.0058CCE6@spartanstore.com>
Message-ID: <20080501162752.GA23109@jrichards.org>

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 12:10:05PM -0400, Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com wrote:
> OK,  Obviously I'm not the communicator that I thought I was.... my 
> bad....
> 
> Here's some parting shots (at me) before I finally let this 
> go.....sometimes I am helpful TO A FAULT...
> 
> Proffessor-
> 
> I'm sorry.  The "breaka you face" line, is a slang term used in hollywood 
> mafia movies to warn people of impending pain.
> I should have been more cogniciant of your english slang knowledge base. 
> It won't happen again.
> 
> Tim-
> 
> I'm sorry you don't consider the "Users GROUP" as a single unit.  Doesn't 
> the group at least have an informal if not formal charter, to foster the 
> acceptance of Linux, & to increase it's user base. I realize group 
> dynamics can't be totally void of personal agendas, but at least in the 
> GROUP setting, I thought by deffinition, they should play a subordinate 
> role.  I'm glad you help where you can, but in your email, you made it 
> sound as though you were part of only a small minority.  I doubt that's 
> the case & hence, that whole "benefit of the doubt" thing.  ;-)
> 
> George-
> "yoeman service" ?  I doubt  it.   I'm just a ol' phart that likes to butt 
> in where he thinks he can offer an idea that maybe others have missed... 
> NOT because anybody ASK for his opinion.  If I wait till they ask, it'd be 
> too late, they would have already made "a horrible mistake". 
> Yeah, my wife rolls her eyes like that, too.  ;-)

Bill,

You have acknowledged that you are new to mailing lists.  You have
responded to three separate posts in one email.  This is not a good
idea.  When I got to the "George" paragraph above I had no idea what you
were talking about - until I closed your email and saw, further down in
the thread, an email from George.  Please reply to each email directly
rather than aggregating them.  It messes up threading and makes
following an extended conversation with multiple subthreads very
difficult.

[snip]
> 
> Now, having blabbed waaaaay more that I'd intended...   WHAT exactly is a 
> BSOD?  How do I know if mine is failing, about to fail, or if I even have 
> one at all?   Thanks.  Feel free to email me if you don't see the need to 
> burden the entire GRLUG board with the answer.  Thanks.

It means "Blue Screen Of Death" that often appears when a Windows
machine crashes.  I am sure you have seen it; blue background with
grayish text of an odd assortment of letters and digits that offers
practically zero information to the average user.
-- 
john-thomas
------
In a perfect union the man and woman are like a strung bow. Who is to
say whether the string bends the bow, or the bow tightens the string?
Cyril Connolly, critic and editor (1903-1974)

From verduin at ameritech.net  Thu May  1 12:32:58 2008
From: verduin at ameritech.net (George (Skip) VerDuin)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 12:32:58 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Email overload
In-Reply-To: <4818CA6A.8060205@kkmfg.com>
References: <4818CA6A.8060205@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <1209659578.30546.186.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>

Very pertinent topic Collin.

On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 15:37 -0400, Collin wrote:
> This is sort of off topic but sort of on topic...
I'm sorry -- I see nothing off topic in your post, and I see many good
thoughts in the thread posted prior to mine.

> 
> I'm getting hundreds upon hundreds of bounce messages from all over the 
> world today. Someone used our email domain as the sender address for not 
> so nice emails (they didn't use our server they just claim to be us). >>SNIP<<
It seems your experience is shared by many of us and our interests are
to protect ourselves from such abuse in the absence of (or the
ineptitude of) protection from others.  The issue you put before us is
tantamount to identity theft, a hard to enforce felony level statute.
It also seems to be a two pronged question of:
a) Discovery
b) Propagation

A) Discovery of email address:
In order for our information to be used by others, it must be ferreted
out by people with either good or bad intentions.  Whatever we do to
protect ourselves from mal-use, it must not disadvantage good-use.

One practice is to obfuscate email addresses on web sites.  For example:
grlug at grlug.org becomes "grlug at grlug dot org", now simple robots pass
over such text and come away empty handed.  I have the desire to learn
more tactics from GRLUG that allow me to put myself out there on the web
with some safety.

B) Propagation of mal intent:
In order for us to blunt the effects of mis-use of our information, we
might need to be proactive at shutting down distribution.  Our present
tools include firewalls and spam filters.  I find it good practice to
shut down abuse, but bad practice to stop at protection and not be
proactive at prevention because inaction is a self defeating
proposition.

One filter put forward is grey-listing and SPF I find interesting.  Like
all solutions, isn't there a price?  For example, to shut down
"undeliverable" now disadvantages legitimate users who mis-spell an
address on valid mail from an organization?  Curious minds...? 

C) What to do later today and tomorrow:
I guess LWN needs to go into my regular reading?  While I can repent, I
also struggle to find the time for information overload...  But perhaps
there is opportunity in this: consultant on the topic, service provider
upstream of the reader, IPv6, SMTP "from" validated against IP address,
email delivery "stamp" with associated cost, giving no quarter at any
ISP with lax attitude (and that might include blacklisting mail from his
domain)...

I find the comments of practiced experts who chide poorly done firewalls
amusing but not very instructional.  My desire is to feel safe so I can
sleep soundly, and feel participative so tomorrow might be a better day
than today.  Casey -- for GRLUG meeting would you consider a round table
on this subject?  I'd love to take notes and post them on wiki.


Warmest regards from here,
George


From timschmidt at gmail.com  Thu May  1 12:56:47 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:56:47 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <OF8A26C6C3.74411BB2-ON8525743C.00565ED7-8525743C.0058CCE6@spartanstore.com>
References: <aecf8abe0805010723u6f5f7d98h19ae31fe7b4d0a2b@mail.gmail.com>
	<OF8A26C6C3.74411BB2-ON8525743C.00565ED7-8525743C.0058CCE6@spartanstore.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805010956r103c5646v119d822bdf7b0a0a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 12:10 PM,  <Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com> wrote:
> I'm sorry you don't consider the "Users GROUP" as a single unit.

Well...  it's not.  It's a loosley knit informal group of
self-identified volunteers.

> Doesn't the group at least have an informal if not formal charter, to foster the
> acceptance of Linux, & to increase it's user base.

Personally, I couldn't care less how well Linux is accepted, or how
large it's user base is.  I care about the quality of the software
itself.  Now, the two aren't mutually exclusive, so it's a fine
line...  but the distinction is meant to point out that growing the
user base for the sake of growth itself is unlikely to be worthwhile.
The culture and work ethic that produced Free and Open Source Software
are every bit as important as the software itself.

> I realize group dynamics can't be totally void of personal agendas, but at least in the GROUP
> setting, I thought by deffinition, they should play a subordinate role.

By all means, attempt to get the group to agree on an agenda.  When
you do, we can talk about getting rid of those pesky personal ones.

> I'm glad you help where you can, but in your email, you made it sound as though
> you were part of only a small minority.

Minority of what?  I don't know what you're meaning is here.

--tim

From networkman at triton.net  Thu May  1 13:11:19 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (Rich Nagel)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 13:11:19 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] BSOD
References: <OF8A26C6C3.74411BB2-ON8525743C.00565ED7-8525743C.0058CCE6@spartanstore.com>
Message-ID: <006001c8abae$6017a280$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>

BSOD = Blue Screen Of Death

The BSOD is characterized by a blue screen with a usually cryptic message in white letters at the top of the screen.  Very popular in the Windows NT days and still highly fashionable in most Microsoft operating systems. :P

Reminds one of "Guru Meditation Mode" from the old C= Amgia days. :)

Rich

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com 
  To: grlug at grlug.org 
  Cc: grlug at grlug.org ; grlug-bounces at grlug.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 12:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [GRLUG] (no subject)



  OK,  Obviously I'm not the communicator that I thought I was.... my bad.... 

  Here's some parting shots (at me) before I finally let this go.....sometimes I am helpful TO A FAULT... 

  Proffessor- 

  I'm sorry.  The "breaka you face" line, is a slang term used in hollywood mafia movies to warn people of impending pain. 
  I should have been more cogniciant of your english slang knowledge base.  It won't happen again. 

  Tim- 

  I'm sorry you don't consider the "Users GROUP" as a single unit.  Doesn't the group at least have an informal if not formal charter, to foster the acceptance of Linux, & to increase it's user base. I realize group dynamics can't be totally void of personal agendas, but at least in the GROUP setting, I thought by deffinition, they should play a subordinate role.  I'm glad you help where you can, but in your email, you made it sound as though you were part of only a small minority.  I doubt that's the case & hence, that whole "benefit of the doubt" thing.  ;-) 

  George- 
  "yoeman service" ?  I doubt  it.   I'm just a ol' phart that likes to butt in where he thinks he can offer an idea that maybe others have missed... NOT because anybody ASK for his opinion.  If I wait till they ask, it'd be too late, they would have already made "a horrible mistake".   
  Yeah, my wife rolls her eyes like that, too.  ;-) 

  And that site that offered no help.... that wasn't THIS group.  I asked the question "rephrased a bit" a week later & got a little bit better response. 
  I haven't asked THIS group anything....YET!   But I'm about to...  Just to point out again, my extreeme ignorance.  ;-) 

  Now, having blabbed waaaaay more that I'd intended...   WHAT exactly is a BSOD?  How do I know if mine is failing, about to fail, or if I even have one at all?   Thanks.  Feel free to email me if you don't see the need to burden the entire GRLUG board with the answer.  Thanks. 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  grlug mailing list
  grlug at grlug.org
  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080501/769641d7/attachment-0001.htm 

From dond at standalelumber.com  Thu May  1 13:21:04 2008
From: dond at standalelumber.com (Don Wood)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 13:21:04 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Email overload
In-Reply-To: <1209659578.30546.186.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
References: <4818CA6A.8060205@kkmfg.com>	
	<1209659578.30546.186.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
Message-ID: <1209662464.8137.11.camel@donw-laptop>


On Thu, 2008-05-01 at 12:32 -0400, George (Skip) VerDuin wrote:

> Very pertinent topic Collin.
> 
> On Wed, 2008-04-30 at 15:37 -0400, Collin wrote:
> > This is sort of off topic but sort of on topic...
> I'm sorry -- I see nothing off topic in your post, and I see many good
> thoughts in the thread posted prior to mine.
> 
> > 
> > I'm getting hundreds upon hundreds of bounce messages from all over the 
> > world today. Someone used our email domain as the sender address for not 
> > so nice emails (they didn't use our server they just claim to be us). >>SNIP<<
> It seems your experience is shared by many of us and our interests are
> to protect ourselves from such abuse in the absence of (or the
> ineptitude of) protection from others.  The issue you put before us is
> tantamount to identity theft, a hard to enforce felony level statute.
> It also seems to be a two pronged question of:
> a) Discovery
> b) Propagation
> 
> A) Discovery of email address:
> In order for our information to be used by others, it must be ferreted
> out by people with either good or bad intentions.  Whatever we do to
> protect ourselves from mal-use, it must not disadvantage good-use.
> 
> One practice is to obfuscate email addresses on web sites.  For example:
> grlug at grlug.org becomes "grlug at grlug dot org", now simple robots pass
> over such text and come away empty handed.  I have the desire to learn
> more tactics from GRLUG that allow me to put myself out there on the web
> with some safety.
> 
> B) Propagation of mal intent:
> In order for us to blunt the effects of mis-use of our information, we
> might need to be proactive at shutting down distribution.  Our present
> tools include firewalls and spam filters.  I find it good practice to
> shut down abuse, but bad practice to stop at protection and not be
> proactive at prevention because inaction is a self defeating
> proposition.
> 
> One filter put forward is grey-listing and SPF I find interesting.  Like
> all solutions, isn't there a price?  For example, to shut down
> "undeliverable" now disadvantages legitimate users who mis-spell an
> address on valid mail from an organization?  Curious minds...? 
> 
> C) What to do later today and tomorrow:
> I guess LWN needs to go into my regular reading?  While I can repent, I
> also struggle to find the time for information overload...  But perhaps
> there is opportunity in this: consultant on the topic, service provider
> upstream of the reader, IPv6, SMTP "from" validated against IP address,
> email delivery "stamp" with associated cost, giving no quarter at any
> ISP with lax attitude (and that might include blacklisting mail from his
> domain)...
> 
> I find the comments of practiced experts who chide poorly done firewalls
> amusing but not very instructional.  My desire is to feel safe so I can
> sleep soundly, and feel participative so tomorrow might be a better day
> than today.  Casey -- for GRLUG meeting would you consider a round table
> on this subject?  I'd love to take notes and post them on wiki.
> 
> 
> Warmest regards from here,
> George
> 
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


Chiding and amusing? What planet are you from? I was the one who
mentioned poor firewall rules as a possible point to look at. I didn't
chide anyone. It was a pointer to help because that's something I
actually had happen to me in my travels. Get over yourself.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080501/0492f7e9/attachment.htm 

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Thu May  1 13:38:35 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 13:38:35 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] BSOD
In-Reply-To: <006001c8abae$6017a280$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
References: <OF8A26C6C3.74411BB2-ON8525743C.00565ED7-8525743C.0058CCE6@spartanstore.com>
	<006001c8abae$6017a280$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
Message-ID: <1209663515.7430.16.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>


> BSOD = Blue Screen Of Death 
> The BSOD is characterized by a blue screen with a usually cryptic
> message in white letters at the top of the screen.  Very popular in
> the Windows NT days and still highly fashionable in most Microsoft
> operating systems. :P

I recently saw a Vista machine crash, and the background was red, not blue.  Is it RSOD now?

Last time I saw a LINUX machine crash the kernel (8 years ago?) the
screen was black with white letters... which would also acronym to BSOD.

-- 
          Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client.
 Contact:awilliam at whitemiceconsulting.com   http://freshmeat.net/projects/consonance/


From verduin at ameritech.net  Thu May  1 13:42:04 2008
From: verduin at ameritech.net (George (Skip) VerDuin)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 13:42:04 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Email overload
In-Reply-To: <1209662464.8137.11.camel@donw-laptop>
References: <4818CA6A.8060205@kkmfg.com>
	<1209659578.30546.186.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
	<1209662464.8137.11.camel@donw-laptop>
Message-ID: <1209663724.30546.226.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>

Sorry Don, I was not focused only on your post.

On Thu, 2008-05-01 at 13:21 -0400, Don Wood wrote:

> Chiding and amusing? What planet are you from?
Many years right here on Earth...
With lots of opportunities to mingle prior to this thread.

>  I was the one who mentioned poor firewall rules as a possible point
> to look at. I didn't chide anyone.
No you did not chide -- your thought is quite on target.

>  It was a pointer to help because that's something I actually had
> happen to me in my travels.
And me in mine.  The issue for me is to wonder if our solutions resemble
each other and to shorten the learning curve for the next guy to have
them.  Thus I still believe there is more detail to explore on the
topic, maybe at GRLUG face-to-face.

>  Get over yourself.
?


Sorry if you feel slighted, not my intent
George


From Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com  Thu May  1 13:50:27 2008
From: Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com (Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 13:50:27 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] BSOD
In-Reply-To: <1209663724.30546.226.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
Message-ID: <OF71CB8F02.A4F5EFCD-ON8525743C.00617648-8525743C.0061FD3C@spartanstore.com>

Thanks to all who pointed out the Blue screen of death.  I am TRUELY 
Blessed, as I have only seen it twice, in the same hour, & once solved via 
a hardware swap, I've not seen one in so long, that I had never 
encountered the acronym.  Can you believe it.  Must've been 6-8-10 years 
ago now.  Although yesterday is getting vague too. ;-)

Thanks also for the tips on the emailings, I'll for sure take them to 
heart.  Hope to meet you all @ the May meeting, but time is still up in 
the air.
Thanks again.
Bill.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080501/36fd7ade/attachment.htm 

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Thu May  1 13:56:38 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 13:56:38 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Email overload
In-Reply-To: <1209659578.30546.186.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
References: <4818CA6A.8060205@kkmfg.com>
	<1209659578.30546.186.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
Message-ID: <1209664598.7430.27.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> A) Discovery of email address:
> In order for our information to be used by others, it must be ferreted
> out by people with either good or bad intentions.  Whatever we do to
> protect ourselves from mal-use, it must not disadvantage good-use.
> One practice is to obfuscate email addresses on web sites.  For example:
> grlug at grlug.org becomes "grlug at grlug dot org", now simple robots pass
> over such text and come away empty handed.  I have the desire to learn
> more tactics from GRLUG that allow me to put myself out there on the web
> with some safety.

I believe this practice to be (a) a pain and (b) totally bogus.  My
e-mail addresses are trivial to find [search for them on Google] and I
don't get deluged with SPAM.  See - adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com,
awilliam at whitemice.org, and adam at morrison-ind.com.

The purpose of e-mail is communication.  An anti-SPAM practice that gets
in the way of communication isn't a solution, it is a nuscense.

> B) Propagation of mal intent:
> In order for us to blunt the effects of mis-use of our information, we
> might need to be proactive at shutting down distribution.  Our present
> tools include firewalls and spam filters.  I find it good practice to
> shut down abuse, but bad practice to stop at protection and not be
> proactive at prevention because inaction is a self defeating
> proposition.

Agree, SPAM needs to be reported.

> One filter put forward is grey-listing and SPF I find interesting.  Like
> all solutions, isn't there a price?  

Yes.  Greylisting slows down mail and creates problems with old/broken
mail servers that react incorrectly to the 451 response.  It has also,
IMO, had its day.  A couple of years ago it was extremely effective when
SPAMers were using servers to spray messages at the SMTP port.  But now
most SPAM comes from infected bots that seem to dutifully retry after a
451.  It helps,  but not as much as it once did.

> For example, to shut down
> "undeliverable" now disadvantages legitimate users who mis-spell an
> address on valid mail from an organization?  Curious minds...? 

A misspelled address won't get delivered anyway.

> C) What to do later today and tomorrow:
> I guess LWN needs to go into my regular reading? 

Yes.

> I find the comments of practiced experts who chide poorly done firewalls
> amusing but not very instructional. 

A sys-admin needs to understand these things and finding instructions is
pretty easy.

>  My desire is to feel safe so I can
> sleep soundly, and feel participative so tomorrow might be a better day
> than today.  Casey -- for GRLUG meeting would you consider a round table
> on this subject?  I'd love to take notes and post them on wiki.

There is tons and tons of documentation on how to correctly setup DNS,
SMTP (postfix, sendmail, etc...) and firewalls.  The last thing the
world needs is yet-another-Wiki on the subject,  we just need more
people to do it.

-- 
          Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client.
 Contact:awilliam at whitemiceconsulting.com   http://freshmeat.net/projects/consonance/


From erickson.adam.m at gmail.com  Thu May  1 14:26:22 2008
From: erickson.adam.m at gmail.com (Adam M. Erickson)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 14:26:22 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] wiki - BSOD
Message-ID: <7cd69fdf0805011126g2b423f2exc76b850dd5f5b5bf@mail.gmail.com>

Stories like the ones given earlier on BSOD would be greatly amusing
to have in the wiki.
I would like to volunteer writing pages for the wiki site. Is there a
way to get involved. I have had some experience using Mediawiki and
know most of the formats and some of the etiquette.

I can't remember the linux distro I was playing around with but one of
the screensavers would flash 1 to many different crash screens from
the commadore on up to MS-BSOD it even included game system crash
screens and you could select wich one you wanted for a screensaver.

If any one knows what I'm talking about I would love to know how to
put that one on Ubuntu.

I already use a fake BSOD as my login screen template for Ubuntu. It
shows a BSOD and complains a lot about MS were there should be error
codes..
It has fooled a few people (who don't pay attention) into believing my
system has crashed.


Adam M. Erickson
erickson.adam.m at gmail.com

From geektoyz at gmail.com  Thu May  1 19:13:48 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 19:13:48 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] wiki - BSOD
In-Reply-To: <7cd69fdf0805011126g2b423f2exc76b850dd5f5b5bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7cd69fdf0805011126g2b423f2exc76b850dd5f5b5bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805011613r78543c5dtd575f27934db2c40@mail.gmail.com>

It looks like you can get the BSOD screensaver back:

 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=189447

G-


On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Adam M. Erickson
<erickson.adam.m at gmail.com> wrote:
> Stories like the ones given earlier on BSOD would be greatly amusing
>  to have in the wiki.
>  I would like to volunteer writing pages for the wiki site. Is there a
>  way to get involved. I have had some experience using Mediawiki and
>  know most of the formats and some of the etiquette.
>
>  I can't remember the linux distro I was playing around with but one of
>  the screensavers would flash 1 to many different crash screens from
>  the commadore on up to MS-BSOD it even included game system crash
>  screens and you could select wich one you wanted for a screensaver.
>
>  If any one knows what I'm talking about I would love to know how to
>  put that one on Ubuntu.
>
>  I already use a fake BSOD as my login screen template for Ubuntu. It
>  shows a BSOD and complains a lot about MS were there should be error
>  codes..
>  It has fooled a few people (who don't pay attention) into believing my
>  system has crashed.
>
>
>  Adam M. Erickson
>  erickson.adam.m at gmail.com
>  _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From tehpopa at gmail.com  Fri May  2 00:44:52 2008
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 00:44:52 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Hostile Attitudes
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0804301157l44bb8426i6c5244b9bd359a3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550804301026k7ef3cf67n5bf1beb5f238d824@mail.gmail.com>
	<4818B0D0.4090708@kkmfg.com> <4818B1BE.6060208@kkmfg.com>
	<e8898d550804301106l602cd32cn8b3684451a51ed9a@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0804301111s26a37fc8y55abdbd586286b9c@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0804301121m49120c8fw61277d2bc09353c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e8898d550804301136i369716fm26fd673e06b66d2a@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0804301143w7b6080afg68d5e456f6fb485e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca1715f80804301153s2d2a9378t2a800e31c669bc12@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0804301157l44bb8426i6c5244b9bd359a3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca1715f80805012144m5905d2b7md724e8945c85a1cf@mail.gmail.com>

I see my sense of humor is completely lost upon everyone. My solution to
diagnosing windows is to install linux. Sorry for adding more to the fire.
Sorry I didn't read this sooner! :P

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 2:53 PM, Justin Popa <tehpopa at gmail.com> wrote:
> > we all know how to diagnose Windows(I think?).
>
> You think wrong.  Especially when it comes to Vista.
>
> --tim
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080502/758b4273/attachment-0001.htm 

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Fri May  2 07:09:46 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 07:09:46 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Hostile Attitudes
In-Reply-To: <ca1715f80805012144m5905d2b7md724e8945c85a1cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550804301026k7ef3cf67n5bf1beb5f238d824@mail.gmail.com>
	<4818B1BE.6060208@kkmfg.com>
	<e8898d550804301106l602cd32cn8b3684451a51ed9a@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0804301111s26a37fc8y55abdbd586286b9c@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0804301121m49120c8fw61277d2bc09353c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e8898d550804301136i369716fm26fd673e06b66d2a@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0804301143w7b6080afg68d5e456f6fb485e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca1715f80804301153s2d2a9378t2a800e31c669bc12@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0804301157l44bb8426i6c5244b9bd359a3e@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca1715f80805012144m5905d2b7md724e8945c85a1cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805020409m3999b85bx5ec74b53cdbe618@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:44 AM, Justin Popa <tehpopa at gmail.com> wrote:
> I see my sense of humor is completely lost upon everyone. My solution to
> diagnosing windows is to install linux. Sorry for adding more to the fire.

Ah!  My bad.  Perhaps we do all know how to fix Windows after all!

--tim

From thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com  Fri May  2 11:52:01 2008
From: thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com (Joe Vanderstelt)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:52:01 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] VirtualBox one way bridge
Message-ID: <cea1322a0805020852r47210616o81a9d5f5f839bd08@mail.gmail.com>

Any VirtualBox Users in the list?

I have setup VirtualBox and I am trying to set up network birdgeing (I
am using ubuntu 8.04). I have tried bother methods out lined in the
manual (using vbox0 and tap0). Both ways give the same result.
Everything works fine on the VM, and everything works fine on the
Host, except I can not ping the VM from the host or the network, the
VM can ping the everything.

Any Ideas?

From brousch at gmail.com  Fri May  2 11:59:40 2008
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:59:40 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] VirtualBox one way bridge
In-Reply-To: <cea1322a0805020852r47210616o81a9d5f5f839bd08@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cea1322a0805020852r47210616o81a9d5f5f839bd08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d92a2d930805020859s4912ba00p5b154f7da838e970@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Joe Vanderstelt <
thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com <thisboyiscrazy%2Bgrlug at gmail.com>> wrote:

> Any VirtualBox Users in the list?
>
> I have setup VirtualBox and I am trying to set up network birdgeing (I
> am using ubuntu 8.04). I have tried bother methods out lined in the
> manual (using vbox0 and tap0). Both ways give the same result.
> Everything works fine on the VM, and everything works fine on the
> Host, except I can not ping the VM from the host or the network, the
> VM can ping the everything.
>
> Any Ideas?


Firewall on the host or guest?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080502/8899eb11/attachment.htm 

From slestak989 at gmail.com  Fri May  2 12:03:58 2008
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 12:03:58 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] VirtualBox one way bridge
In-Reply-To: <d92a2d930805020859s4912ba00p5b154f7da838e970@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cea1322a0805020852r47210616o81a9d5f5f839bd08@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805020859s4912ba00p5b154f7da838e970@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ef8ba6540805020903o4373127di4a4a5d93b311d9fb@mail.gmail.com>

could it maybe just not be responding to icmp?  just a thought.

From thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com  Fri May  2 13:30:51 2008
From: thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com (Joe Vanderstelt)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 13:30:51 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] VirtualBox one way bridge
In-Reply-To: <d92a2d930805020859s4912ba00p5b154f7da838e970@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cea1322a0805020852r47210616o81a9d5f5f839bd08@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805020859s4912ba00p5b154f7da838e970@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cea1322a0805021030y2442db1bn94530642b8ae8406@mail.gmail.com>

guest: by default yes and I have turned it off
host: no

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Ben Rousch <brousch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Joe Vanderstelt
> <thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Any VirtualBox Users in the list?
> >
> > I have setup VirtualBox and I am trying to set up network birdgeing (I
> > am using ubuntu 8.04). I have tried bother methods out lined in the
> > manual (using vbox0 and tap0). Both ways give the same result.
> > Everything works fine on the VM, and everything works fine on the
> > Host, except I can not ping the VM from the host or the network, the
> > VM can ping the everything.
> >
> > Any Ideas?
>
> Firewall on the host or guest?
>
> _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

From thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com  Fri May  2 13:32:53 2008
From: thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com (Joe Vanderstelt)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 13:32:53 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] VirtualBox one way bridge
In-Reply-To: <ef8ba6540805020903o4373127di4a4a5d93b311d9fb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cea1322a0805020852r47210616o81a9d5f5f839bd08@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805020859s4912ba00p5b154f7da838e970@mail.gmail.com>
	<ef8ba6540805020903o4373127di4a4a5d93b311d9fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cea1322a0805021032v7833f226qad1624ce35419e18@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Steve Romanow <slestak989 at gmail.com> wrote:
> could it maybe just not be responding to icmp?  just a thought.
>  _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

Actually thats correct it does not respond to ICMP but other things
work for example i can mount shares. So not as big of a deal as I
thought, but still I should be able to ping the guest.

From david at pembrook.net  Fri May  2 13:16:05 2008
From: david at pembrook.net (David Pembrook)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 13:16:05 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Hostile Attitudes
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805020409m3999b85bx5ec74b53cdbe618@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550804301026k7ef3cf67n5bf1beb5f238d824@mail.gmail.com>	<4818B1BE.6060208@kkmfg.com>	<e8898d550804301106l602cd32cn8b3684451a51ed9a@mail.gmail.com>	<aecf8abe0804301111s26a37fc8y55abdbd586286b9c@mail.gmail.com>	<2c97fe9d0804301121m49120c8fw61277d2bc09353c3@mail.gmail.com>	<e8898d550804301136i369716fm26fd673e06b66d2a@mail.gmail.com>	<2c97fe9d0804301143w7b6080afg68d5e456f6fb485e@mail.gmail.com>	<ca1715f80804301153s2d2a9378t2a800e31c669bc12@mail.gmail.com>	<2c97fe9d0804301157l44bb8426i6c5244b9bd359a3e@mail.gmail.com>	<ca1715f80805012144m5905d2b7md724e8945c85a1cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805020409m3999b85bx5ec74b53cdbe618@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <481B4C55.3040205@pembrook.net>

Tim Schmidt wrote:
> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:44 AM, Justin Popa <tehpopa at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> I see my sense of humor is completely lost upon everyone. My solution to
>> diagnosing windows is to install linux. Sorry for adding more to the fire.
>>     
>
> Ah!  My bad.  Perhaps we do all know how to fix Windows after all!
>
> --tim
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>   
each has a place.. we all have preferences.. I've fixed screwed up linux 
desktops with windows too LOL

From casey at grlug.org  Fri May  2 15:01:43 2008
From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:01:43 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Local Support for Linux Desktops
Message-ID: <f0ffba670805021201w304f7581s677622d71c9a1e27@mail.gmail.com>

Hello LUG,

During the AIM West meeting on Open Source someone asked if anyone
knew of a local vendor that offered support for Linux Desktops and no
one knew of any.

Does anyone on the list offer Linux support or know of anyone that does?

Casey

From jjfoerch at earthlink.net  Fri May  2 15:10:14 2008
From: jjfoerch at earthlink.net (John J Foerch)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:10:14 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG]  Local Support for Linux Desktops
In-Reply-To: <f0ffba670805021201w304f7581s677622d71c9a1e27@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0ffba670805021201w304f7581s677622d71c9a1e27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18459.26390.148829.991494@gargle.gargle.HOWL>

They might check GPC.  I know that a few months ago they were trying
out selling Ubuntu-loaded machines.  I have not heard how this
experiment went and whether they are still doing it.  I may even be
able to claim partial credit for the suggestion.

-- 
John Foerch

Casey DuBois writes:
 > Hello LUG,
 > 
 > During the AIM West meeting on Open Source someone asked if anyone
 > knew of a local vendor that offered support for Linux Desktops and no
 > one knew of any.
 > 
 > Does anyone on the list offer Linux support or know of anyone that does?
 > 
 > Casey
 > _______________________________________________
 > grlug mailing list
 > grlug at grlug.org
 > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

From brousch at gmail.com  Fri May  2 15:18:12 2008
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:18:12 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Local Support for Linux Desktops
In-Reply-To: <18459.26390.148829.991494@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
References: <f0ffba670805021201w304f7581s677622d71c9a1e27@mail.gmail.com>
	<18459.26390.148829.991494@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
Message-ID: <d92a2d930805021218s19d33412ic9520232ad4b5bfd@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:10 PM, John J Foerch <jjfoerch at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> They might check GPC.  I know that a few months ago they were trying
> out selling Ubuntu-loaded machines.  I have not heard how this
> experiment went and whether they are still doing it.  I may even be
> able to claim partial credit for the suggestion.
>

I heard a rumor that GPC has been sold to a new owner, so past experience
with GPC may no longer apply. I have not been down there to check it out
since I heard about the sale.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080502/74cba005/attachment.htm 

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Fri May  2 15:21:04 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:21:04 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Need help to stop BSOD
In-Reply-To: <4982.69.11.205.103.1209652814.squirrel@remotemail.triton.net>
References: <aecf8abe0804300906i18c485b8oa4e0e0f2170a16@mail.gmail.com>
	<005e01c8aae2$6fb1c030$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<aecf8abe0804300956p4c1b43ffl808ea97bbcb202c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<001f01c8aae4$26107fa0$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<aecf8abe0804301005l5aa545c5o924032b51d5c6f76@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209594290.3965.20.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<8b72b8d10804302129v6d7d87f3v98fffae621e1b9b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805010531h46c09056tc5335132a54fe1e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4982.69.11.205.103.1209652814.squirrel@remotemail.triton.net>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805021221q554acab1n964f7152d17ea3a3@mail.gmail.com>

Actually I found why cause BSOD, it was video card's RAM that was
underclock, for example, video card ram speed supposed be 1100mhz
instead 1000mhz, so it was along GPU RAM  issue

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 10:40 AM,  <networkman at triton.net> wrote:
> Apologies, Professor, if you took offense at any of my comments.
>
> The fact of the matter is, I am still primarily a Windows person, and yes,
> I play a number of games too, primarily the "Rainbow Six Three" series,
> most recently "Vegas", and while I've not seen any BSOD errors, I do
> encounter in-game errors related to my ATI video card(in XP Pro, latest
> drivers and patches, yada yada).
>
> But, gamer or no, I still wouldn't take my Microsoft Windows issues to a
> Linux Users Group for support.  I've no doubt that there are some very
> talented individuals in this group - in fact, I've already seen that in
> the work they've done and tried to provide thus far with the IPAQ & the
> Geexbox software.  Still, those skills in a totally different OS may not
> cross-over to games designed to run in another totally different OS.
>
> If you want to find support for Vista & gaming, I suggest you let your
> fingers do the walking as it were and let Google or some other search be
> your friend for a while.  Anandtech, Tom's Hardware, and any number of
> others sites have tons of forums geared specifically to your issues.  Use
> them.
>
> 'Nuff said.
>
>
> > thank you godwin, that's what I was look for help, most insult me
> > about it, but only 3 helped me
> >
> > reason why people insult me because they have no idea how I felt about
> > BSOD while I am gamer
>
> < SNIP! >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha

From slestak989 at gmail.com  Fri May  2 15:23:48 2008
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:23:48 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Need help to stop BSOD
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0805021221q554acab1n964f7152d17ea3a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aecf8abe0804300906i18c485b8oa4e0e0f2170a16@mail.gmail.com>
	<005e01c8aae2$6fb1c030$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<aecf8abe0804300956p4c1b43ffl808ea97bbcb202c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<001f01c8aae4$26107fa0$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<aecf8abe0804301005l5aa545c5o924032b51d5c6f76@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209594290.3965.20.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<8b72b8d10804302129v6d7d87f3v98fffae621e1b9b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805010531h46c09056tc5335132a54fe1e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4982.69.11.205.103.1209652814.squirrel@remotemail.triton.net>
	<aecf8abe0805021221q554acab1n964f7152d17ea3a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ef8ba6540805021223x96e990cs6fc85c2476710543@mail.gmail.com>

good job.  i dont think I would've found that.

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Fri May  2 15:26:35 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:26:35 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Need help to stop BSOD
In-Reply-To: <ef8ba6540805021223x96e990cs6fc85c2476710543@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aecf8abe0804300906i18c485b8oa4e0e0f2170a16@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0804300956p4c1b43ffl808ea97bbcb202c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<001f01c8aae4$26107fa0$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<aecf8abe0804301005l5aa545c5o924032b51d5c6f76@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209594290.3965.20.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<8b72b8d10804302129v6d7d87f3v98fffae621e1b9b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805010531h46c09056tc5335132a54fe1e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4982.69.11.205.103.1209652814.squirrel@remotemail.triton.net>
	<aecf8abe0805021221q554acab1n964f7152d17ea3a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ef8ba6540805021223x96e990cs6fc85c2476710543@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805021226p428d07b6v1ca2d14562107fd1@mail.gmail.com>

for your info in future of windows

IF video card's memory speed under manufacturer's speed, then you must
overclock it by automatically or manually

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Steve Romanow <slestak989 at gmail.com> wrote:
> good job.  i dont think I would've found that.
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha

From grlugcasey at gmail.com  Fri May  2 15:28:57 2008
From: grlugcasey at gmail.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:28:57 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Local Support for Linux Desktops
In-Reply-To: <d92a2d930805021218s19d33412ic9520232ad4b5bfd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0ffba670805021201w304f7581s677622d71c9a1e27@mail.gmail.com>
	<18459.26390.148829.991494@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
	<d92a2d930805021218s19d33412ic9520232ad4b5bfd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0ffba670805021228x685d6954n724e08181f27027a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Ben Rousch <brousch at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:10 PM, John J Foerch <jjfoerch at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> > They might check GPC.  I know that a few months ago they were trying
> > out selling Ubuntu-loaded machines.  I have not heard how this
> > experiment went and whether they are still doing it.  I may even be
> > able to claim partial credit for the suggestion.
> >
>
> I heard a rumor that GPC has been sold to a new owner, so past experience
> with GPC may no longer apply. I have not been down there to check it out
> since I heard about the sale.
>
>


Update -
I just spoke with the new owner of GPC and he was not sure.
His tech will call me to discuss.

C

From grlug at tankrip.com  Fri May  2 15:29:07 2008
From: grlug at tankrip.com (Colin Vallance)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:29:07 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Test
Message-ID: <9AF1B1DF-E84B-4BC1-B223-2343675EFBDC@tankrip.com>

Just sending a test email.  No need to reply from anyone, I'll see it  
hit the list if it works properly.  I switched my email address after  
all the cruft this week.  Let's just say I'll won't be paying  
attention as closely anymore. 

From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri May  2 15:41:10 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:41:10 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Local Support for Linux Desktops
In-Reply-To: <f0ffba670805021201w304f7581s677622d71c9a1e27@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0ffba670805021201w304f7581s677622d71c9a1e27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805021241h73ba0740yc1c425865f6829a8@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Casey DuBois <casey at grlug.org> wrote:
> Hello LUG,
>
>  During the AIM West meeting on Open Source someone asked if anyone
>  knew of a local vendor that offered support for Linux Desktops and no
>  one knew of any.
>
>  Does anyone on the list offer Linux support or know of anyone that does?
>
>  Casey

There's the Linux Box, but they're out of Detroit (I think).  They
advertise on Michigan Radio.

http://www.linuxbox.com/tiki/

Hmm...Pretty spiffy appearance for tikiwiki.  I should rework my wiki's theme.
-- 
:wq

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Fri May  2 15:42:29 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 15:42:29 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Test
In-Reply-To: <9AF1B1DF-E84B-4BC1-B223-2343675EFBDC@tankrip.com>
References: <9AF1B1DF-E84B-4BC1-B223-2343675EFBDC@tankrip.com>
Message-ID: <1209757349.27450.0.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Fri, 2008-05-02 at 15:29 -0400, Colin Vallance wrote:
> Just sending a test email.  No need to reply from anyone, I'll see it  
> hit the list if it works properly.  I switched my email address after  
> all the cruft this week.  Let's just say I'll won't be paying  
> attention as closely anymore. 

What did you write? I didn't hear you. Could you write louder please? I
was paying close attention.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080502/823a0ea7/attachment-0001.pgp 

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Fri May  2 15:46:20 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:46:20 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Test
In-Reply-To: <1209757349.27450.0.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <9AF1B1DF-E84B-4BC1-B223-2343675EFBDC@tankrip.com>
	<1209757349.27450.0.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805021246h50fba998p6f340acf27356538@mail.gmail.com>

Can you please go store buy jackhammer subwoofer and get it connect to
stereo system then grab microphone and repeat what you said :)

I sitll cant hear you.....no matter if jackhammer subwoofer can try

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Greg Folkert <greg at gregfolkert.net> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2008-05-02 at 15:29 -0400, Colin Vallance wrote:
> > Just sending a test email.  No need to reply from anyone, I'll see it
> > hit the list if it works properly.  I switched my email address after
> > all the cruft this week.  Let's just say I'll won't be paying
> > attention as closely anymore.
>
> What did you write? I didn't hear you. Could you write louder please? I
> was paying close attention.
> --
> greg at gregfolkert.net
> PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
> Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
> Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
> Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha

From drehfeldtusa at gmail.com  Fri May  2 15:48:10 2008
From: drehfeldtusa at gmail.com (Douglas Rehfeldt)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 15:48:10 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] RE to: Need help to stop BSOD - Solution
In-Reply-To: <mailman.788.1209755333.3996.grlug@grlug.org>
References: <mailman.788.1209755333.3996.grlug@grlug.org>
Message-ID: <1209757691.6697.12.camel@redtop>

Professor Inuyasha,

I'm glad that you found a solution to your problem.  Even more so, I'm
happy that you posted your fix to this list.  If the solution only helps
one more person, and that person helps one more...well, you get idea.
And it was nice to see some more life in this list.  Finally, I hope I
never have to ask about video problems for my onboard 32MB video
processor when playing pong_curses.   :)  

-- 
Best regards,

Douglas Rehfeldt
e-mail:  douglas.rehfeldt at gmail.com


From adderd at kkmfg.com  Fri May  2 15:57:29 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 15:57:29 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Need help to stop BSOD
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0805021226p428d07b6v1ca2d14562107fd1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aecf8abe0804300906i18c485b8oa4e0e0f2170a16@mail.gmail.com>	<aecf8abe0804300956p4c1b43ffl808ea97bbcb202c1@mail.gmail.com>	<001f01c8aae4$26107fa0$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>	<aecf8abe0804301005l5aa545c5o924032b51d5c6f76@mail.gmail.com>	<1209594290.3965.20.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>	<8b72b8d10804302129v6d7d87f3v98fffae621e1b9b6@mail.gmail.com>	<aecf8abe0805010531h46c09056tc5335132a54fe1e1@mail.gmail.com>	<4982.69.11.205.103.1209652814.squirrel@remotemail.triton.net>	<aecf8abe0805021221q554acab1n964f7152d17ea3a3@mail.gmail.com>	<ef8ba6540805021223x96e990cs6fc85c2476710543@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805021226p428d07b6v1ca2d14562107fd1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <481B7229.3020405@kkmfg.com>

This seems rather odd though. I've heard of system problems with OVER 
clocked video cards but never underclocked. In fact, my video card auto 
throttles the clock speeds when you aren't using it for anything really 
important. So this is a new one to me.

Professor Inuyasha wrote:
> for your info in future of windows
>
> IF video card's memory speed under manufacturer's speed, then you must
> overclock it by automatically or manually
>
> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Steve Romanow <slestak989 at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> good job.  i dont think I would've found that.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> grlug mailing list
>> grlug at grlug.org
>> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
>>     
>
>
>
>   


From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri May  2 16:03:34 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 16:03:34 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Need help to stop BSOD
In-Reply-To: <481B7229.3020405@kkmfg.com>
References: <aecf8abe0804300906i18c485b8oa4e0e0f2170a16@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0804301005l5aa545c5o924032b51d5c6f76@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209594290.3965.20.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<8b72b8d10804302129v6d7d87f3v98fffae621e1b9b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805010531h46c09056tc5335132a54fe1e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4982.69.11.205.103.1209652814.squirrel@remotemail.triton.net>
	<aecf8abe0805021221q554acab1n964f7152d17ea3a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ef8ba6540805021223x96e990cs6fc85c2476710543@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805021226p428d07b6v1ca2d14562107fd1@mail.gmail.com>
	<481B7229.3020405@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805021303o1ea23e64p196c72fc68c396c5@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
> This seems rather odd though. I've heard of system problems with OVER
>  clocked video cards but never underclocked. In fact, my video card auto
>  throttles the clock speeds when you aren't using it for anything really
>  important. So this is a new one to me.

If the GPU was expecting a certain maximum latency proportional to its
own clock speed, then if the memory's speed wasn't sufficiently
increased to meet that latency requirement, problems would likely
result.


-- 
:wq

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Fri May  2 16:07:23 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 16:07:23 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Local Support for Linux Desktops
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805021241h73ba0740yc1c425865f6829a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0ffba670805021201w304f7581s677622d71c9a1e27@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805021241h73ba0740yc1c425865f6829a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1209758843.5393.12.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> >  During the AIM West meeting on Open Source someone asked if anyone
> >  knew of a local vendor that offered support for Linux Desktops and no
> >  one knew of any.
> >  Does anyone on the list offer Linux support or know of anyone that does?

Define "support"?

> There's the Linux Box, but they're out of Detroit (I think).  They
> advertise on Michigan Radio.

I've seen a couple of presentations by Linux Box people.  It seems like
a very top-notch and high-end organization.  My *impression* is that
most of their work is server oriented (lots of Kerberos & AFS work).

The presentations I saw are both available form their site:
<http://linuxbox.com/drupal/files/downloads/tco-kalamazoo-itech.pdf> &
<http://linuxbox.com/drupal/files/downloads/LIDS.pdf>

> http://www.linuxbox.com/tiki/
> Hmm...Pretty spiffy appearance for tikiwiki.  I should rework my wiki's theme.
-- 
Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org


From jtr at jrichards.org  Fri May  2 16:20:32 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 16:20:32 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Test
In-Reply-To: <9AF1B1DF-E84B-4BC1-B223-2343675EFBDC@tankrip.com>
References: <9AF1B1DF-E84B-4BC1-B223-2343675EFBDC@tankrip.com>
Message-ID: <20080502202032.GA16780@jrichards.org>

On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 03:29:07PM -0400, Colin Vallance wrote:
> Just sending a test email.  No need to reply from anyone, I'll see it  
> hit the list if it works properly.  I switched my email address after  
> all the cruft this week.  Let's just say I'll won't be paying  
> attention as closely anymore. 

Please understand the following questions for what they are and no more.
It is my attempt to understand human behavior more clearly.  There is no
malice or ill will or backhanded reprimand intended.  There is no spite
or ruffled feathers or anything of the sort.  I am genuinely puzzled by
your email.

If the "cruft" on this list bothers you so much, why did you
resubscribe?  Also, if you did not wish for a reply to your "test" why
did you include the last two sentences in your email?  What, exactly,
are you testing?
-- 
john-thomas
------
A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a
sign of weakness and malady.
Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)

From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri May  2 15:52:45 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 15:52:45 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] RE to: Need help to stop BSOD - Solution
In-Reply-To: <1209757691.6697.12.camel@redtop>
References: <mailman.788.1209755333.3996.grlug@grlug.org>
	<1209757691.6697.12.camel@redtop>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805021252r205a6a69v9a369b264dd1f4c5@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Douglas Rehfeldt <drehfeldtusa at gmail.com> wrote:
> Professor Inuyasha,
>
>  I'm glad that you found a solution to your problem.  Even more so, I'm
>  happy that you posted your fix to this list.  If the solution only helps
>  one more person, and that person helps one more...well, you get idea.
>  And it was nice to see some more life in this list.  Finally, I hope I
>  never have to ask about video problems for my onboard 32MB video
>  processor when playing pong_curses.   :)

You've *got* to try AALib Quake on a GeForce 8600 GT... It's pure bliss.

-- 
:wq

From geektoyz at gmail.com  Sat May  3 00:23:40 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 00:23:40 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] DVD playing in Ubuntu (quick how-to)
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805022123i3b068e68g8eaff3a3ceb18484@mail.gmail.com>

Totally ripped from here:
http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/2765/ubuntu_enable_dvd_playback

sudo apt-get install totem-xine libxine1-ffmpeg libdvdread3
sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/install-css.sh

Ah, I remember the days, many a moon a go, when getting DVD playback
was one ugly hack...  ;-)

cheers,
G-

-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Sat May  3 07:34:32 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 07:34:32 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] DVD playing in Ubuntu (quick how-to)
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10805022123i3b068e68g8eaff3a3ceb18484@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8b72b8d10805022123i3b068e68g8eaff3a3ceb18484@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1209814472.29305.1.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Sat, 2008-05-03 at 00:23 -0400, Godwin wrote:
> Totally ripped from here:
> http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/2765/ubuntu_enable_dvd_playback
> 
> sudo apt-get install totem-xine libxine1-ffmpeg libdvdread3
> sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/install-css.sh
> 
> Ah, I remember the days, many a moon a go, when getting DVD playback
> was one ugly hack...  ;-)

Or if on debian, you have debian-multimedia.org setup

apt-get install totem-xine libxine1-ffmpeg libdvdread3

maxime:/usr/share/doc/libdvdread3# dpkg -L libdvdread3
/.
/usr
/usr/share
/usr/share/doc
/usr/share/doc/libdvdread3
/usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/changelog.gz
/usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/copyright
/usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/TODO
/usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/README.Debian
/usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/changelog.Debian.gz
/usr/lib
/usr/lib/libdvdread.so.3.2.1
/usr/lib/libdvdread.so.3

All done.

-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080503/8ff79f03/attachment.pgp 

From geektoyz at gmail.com  Sat May  3 12:01:57 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 12:01:57 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] DVD playing in Ubuntu (quick how-to)
In-Reply-To: <1209814472.29305.1.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <8b72b8d10805022123i3b068e68g8eaff3a3ceb18484@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209814472.29305.1.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805030901i2ce945aam1f4fb2139fe9ad71@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting... "install-css.sh" not there in Debian.  :-(

G-


On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 7:34 AM, Greg Folkert <greg at gregfolkert.net> wrote:
>
>  On Sat, 2008-05-03 at 00:23 -0400, Godwin wrote:
>  > Totally ripped from here:
>  > http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/2765/ubuntu_enable_dvd_playback
>  >
>  > sudo apt-get install totem-xine libxine1-ffmpeg libdvdread3
>  > sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/install-css.sh
>  >
>  > Ah, I remember the days, many a moon a go, when getting DVD playback
>  > was one ugly hack...  ;-)
>
>  Or if on debian, you have debian-multimedia.org setup
>
>
>  apt-get install totem-xine libxine1-ffmpeg libdvdread3
>
>  maxime:/usr/share/doc/libdvdread3# dpkg -L libdvdread3
>  /.
>  /usr
>  /usr/share
>  /usr/share/doc
>  /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3
>  /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/changelog.gz
>  /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/copyright
>  /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/TODO
>  /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/README.Debian
>  /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/changelog.Debian.gz
>  /usr/lib
>  /usr/lib/libdvdread.so.3.2.1
>  /usr/lib/libdvdread.so.3
>
>  All done.
>
>  --
>  greg at gregfolkert.net
>  PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
>  Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
>  Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
>  Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
>
> _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From geektoyz at gmail.com  Sat May  3 12:03:11 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 12:03:11 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] DVD playing in Ubuntu (quick how-to)
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10805030901i2ce945aam1f4fb2139fe9ad71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8b72b8d10805022123i3b068e68g8eaff3a3ceb18484@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209814472.29305.1.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<8b72b8d10805030901i2ce945aam1f4fb2139fe9ad71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805030903o1b93c450sf1d09fdd734d831@mail.gmail.com>

Ooh!  Debian ::  http://bash.cyberciti.biz/desktop/install-libdvdcss/

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Godwin <geektoyz at gmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting... "install-css.sh" not there in Debian.  :-(
>
>  G-
>
>
>
>
>  On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 7:34 AM, Greg Folkert <greg at gregfolkert.net> wrote:
>  >
>  >  On Sat, 2008-05-03 at 00:23 -0400, Godwin wrote:
>  >  > Totally ripped from here:
>  >  > http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/2765/ubuntu_enable_dvd_playback
>  >  >
>  >  > sudo apt-get install totem-xine libxine1-ffmpeg libdvdread3
>  >  > sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/install-css.sh
>  >  >
>  >  > Ah, I remember the days, many a moon a go, when getting DVD playback
>  >  > was one ugly hack...  ;-)
>  >
>  >  Or if on debian, you have debian-multimedia.org setup
>  >
>  >
>  >  apt-get install totem-xine libxine1-ffmpeg libdvdread3
>  >
>  >  maxime:/usr/share/doc/libdvdread3# dpkg -L libdvdread3
>  >  /.
>  >  /usr
>  >  /usr/share
>  >  /usr/share/doc
>  >  /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3
>  >  /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/changelog.gz
>  >  /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/copyright
>  >  /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/TODO
>  >  /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/README.Debian
>  >  /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/changelog.Debian.gz
>  >  /usr/lib
>  >  /usr/lib/libdvdread.so.3.2.1
>  >  /usr/lib/libdvdread.so.3
>  >
>  >  All done.
>  >
>  >  --
>  >  greg at gregfolkert.net
>  >  PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
>  >  Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
>  >  Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
>  >  Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  >  grlug mailing list
>  >  grlug at grlug.org
>  >  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>  --
>
>  Ubber::Geek
>  http://grlug.org/
>



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From radiodurans at yahoo.com  Sat May  3 12:10:04 2008
From: radiodurans at yahoo.com (John Harig)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] Loose AC jack on Dell laptop repair
In-Reply-To: <1209758843.5393.12.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <596323.53377.qm@web80401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi my brother is suffering a loose AC jack on his old
inspiron 5150 laptop so it wont charge. I dont know
much about this but I would guess he would need to get
a new Jack and solder it on, something I know nothing
about. Googling I found the following: 

http://pomeroycomputing.blogspot.com/2007/10/dell-inspiron-5150.html

Any ideas to get it repaired?  

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Sat May  3 12:18:03 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 16:18:03 +0000
Subject: [GRLUG] Loose AC jack on Dell laptop repair
In-Reply-To: <596323.53377.qm@web80401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <1209758843.5393.12.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<596323.53377.qm@web80401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805030918l39999d8ek39a7571e6a770fd1@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 4:10 PM, John Harig <radiodurans at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi my brother is suffering a loose AC jack on his old
>  inspiron 5150 laptop so it wont charge. I dont know
>  much about this but I would guess he would need to get
>  a new Jack and solder it on, something I know nothing
>  about. Googling I found the following:
>
>  http://pomeroycomputing.blogspot.com/2007/10/dell-inspiron-5150.html
>
>  Any ideas to get it repaired?

Invest in a quality soldering iron.  Like this one:

http://www.all-spec.com/1/viewitem/WES51/ALLSPEC/prodinfo/w3path=cat

Ladyada recommends it here: http://www.ladyada.net/library/equipt/

I've worked with two, and I have to say that they'll allow a novice
fairly excellent results.  $30 Radio shack irons are nowhere near as
forgiving.

--tim

From mikemol at gmail.com  Sat May  3 13:18:27 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 13:18:27 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Loose AC jack on Dell laptop repair
In-Reply-To: <596323.53377.qm@web80401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <1209758843.5393.12.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<596323.53377.qm@web80401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805031018i356b59e1v465baf3ec2f7b68f@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:10 PM, John Harig <radiodurans at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi my brother is suffering a loose AC jack on his old
>  inspiron 5150 laptop so it wont charge. I dont know
>  much about this but I would guess he would need to get
>  a new Jack and solder it on, something I know nothing
>  about. Googling I found the following:
>
>  http://pomeroycomputing.blogspot.com/2007/10/dell-inspiron-5150.html
>
>  Any ideas to get it repaired?

It's a tricky, tricky job.  I've had it happen on three laptops.  Each
time, I had it fixed by a different person.  Two out of the three were
successful, but one laptop wound up junked.

It's an easy job to royally mess up; I wouldn't touch it if you don't
have a reasonable amount of experience with soldering.

OTOH, I can ask a guy I trust (one who didn't break a laptop) if he'd
be willing to fix it for a fee.  He was the guy I had doing laptop
repair at the GRCC PC Clinic, but, for liability reasons, GRCC is
clamping down on students doing internal repairs on PCs.

-- 
:wq

From jeffd at i2k.com  Sat May  3 13:13:11 2008
From: jeffd at i2k.com (Jeff DeFouw)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 13:13:11 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] DVD playing in Ubuntu (quick how-to)
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10805030901i2ce945aam1f4fb2139fe9ad71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8b72b8d10805022123i3b068e68g8eaff3a3ceb18484@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209814472.29305.1.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<8b72b8d10805030901i2ce945aam1f4fb2139fe9ad71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080503171311.GA27328@blorp.plorb.com>

On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 12:01:57PM -0400, Godwin wrote:
> Interesting... "install-css.sh" not there in Debian.  :-(

debian-multimedia.org has a libdvdcss2 package.  It's even suggested 
when you install libdvdread3.

-- 
Jeff DeFouw <jeffd at i2k.com>

From jtr at jrichards.org  Sat May  3 14:49:02 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 14:49:02 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Loose AC jack on Dell laptop repair
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805030918l39999d8ek39a7571e6a770fd1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1209758843.5393.12.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<596323.53377.qm@web80401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805030918l39999d8ek39a7571e6a770fd1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080503184902.GA25645@jrichards.org>

On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 04:18:03PM +0000, Tim Schmidt wrote:
[snip]
> I've worked with two, and I have to say that they'll allow a novice
> fairly excellent results.  $30 Radio shack irons are nowhere near as
> forgiving.

In what sense can a soldering iron be "forgiving?"  I am sure I am
showing my ignorance, but a soldering iron gets hot enough to melt
solder, right?  What is the scope of forgiveness here?
-- 
john-thomas
------
In times when the government imprisons any unjustly, the true place for
a just man is also the prison.
Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Sat May  3 14:53:26 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 18:53:26 +0000
Subject: [GRLUG] Loose AC jack on Dell laptop repair
In-Reply-To: <20080503184902.GA25645@jrichards.org>
References: <1209758843.5393.12.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<596323.53377.qm@web80401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805030918l39999d8ek39a7571e6a770fd1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080503184902.GA25645@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805031153r75f75far3a7cd1c8985e5245@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 6:49 PM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org> wrote:
>  In what sense can a soldering iron be "forgiving?"  I am sure I am
>  showing my ignorance, but a soldering iron gets hot enough to melt
>  solder, right?  What is the scope of forgiveness here?

There are HUGE differences.  I won't claim to know what all of them
are, as I'm a novice myself...  all I can tell you is that I've owned
a few $15 cheapies, and worked with a $35 model, and two of the
Wellers, and the wellers are the only ones I've (with my limited
experience) been able to consistently get good results with.

--tim

From tehpopa at gmail.com  Sat May  3 20:05:51 2008
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 20:05:51 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Loose AC jack on Dell laptop repair
In-Reply-To: <20080503184902.GA25645@jrichards.org>
References: <1209758843.5393.12.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<596323.53377.qm@web80401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805030918l39999d8ek39a7571e6a770fd1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080503184902.GA25645@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <ca1715f80805031705o447f94eexbbb9856b8224587d@mail.gmail.com>

The biggest difference between the $15 or $50 cheapies at RS, and a decent
Weller unit is as follows:

1) Adjustable temperature
2) Swap different tips in and out


That's the biggest advantage. Sure the $50 RS unit is adjustable, but you'll
see that they usually carry only 1-2 styles of tips. On that note as well,
small soldering(thinking surface mount) require far finer tips than the ones
you can get at RS.

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 2:49 PM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org>
wrote:

> On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 04:18:03PM +0000, Tim Schmidt wrote:
> [snip]
> > I've worked with two, and I have to say that they'll allow a novice
> > fairly excellent results.  $30 Radio shack irons are nowhere near as
> > forgiving.
>
> In what sense can a soldering iron be "forgiving?"  I am sure I am
> showing my ignorance, but a soldering iron gets hot enough to melt
> solder, right?  What is the scope of forgiveness here?
> --
> john-thomas
> ------
> In times when the government imprisons any unjustly, the true place for
> a just man is also the prison.
> Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080503/9e57b787/attachment.htm 

From radiodurans at yahoo.com  Sat May  3 22:56:28 2008
From: radiodurans at yahoo.com (John Harig)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 19:56:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] Loose AC jack on Dell laptop repair
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805031018i356b59e1v465baf3ec2f7b68f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <988195.54791.qm@web80404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

They shut it down for liability reasons?  That seems
odd. I think they still have an auto repair area. . .

If he wants to provide a quote for it Ill run it past
my brother, otherwise he'll probably mail it to some
guy in MN.

I need soldering lessons and tools :).  I havent
soldered since I played with telephone wires when I
was younger.  Looks like many good recommendations on
the thread.

--- Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:10 PM, John Harig
> <radiodurans at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hi my brother is suffering a loose AC jack on his
> old
> >  inspiron 5150 laptop so it wont charge. I dont
> know
> >  much about this but I would guess he would need
> to get
> >  a new Jack and solder it on, something I know
> nothing
> >  about. Googling I found the following:
> >
> > 
>
http://pomeroycomputing.blogspot.com/2007/10/dell-inspiron-5150.html
> >
> >  Any ideas to get it repaired?
> 
> It's a tricky, tricky job.  I've had it happen on
> three laptops.  Each
> time, I had it fixed by a different person.  Two out
> of the three were
> successful, but one laptop wound up junked.
> 
> It's an easy job to royally mess up; I wouldn't
> touch it if you don't
> have a reasonable amount of experience with
> soldering.
> 
> OTOH, I can ask a guy I trust (one who didn't break
> a laptop) if he'd
> be willing to fix it for a fee.  He was the guy I
> had doing laptop
> repair at the GRCC PC Clinic, but, for liability
> reasons, GRCC is
> clamping down on students doing internal repairs on
> PCs.
> 
> -- 
> :wq
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
>
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 


From mikemol at gmail.com  Sat May  3 23:22:56 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 23:22:56 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Loose AC jack on Dell laptop repair
In-Reply-To: <988195.54791.qm@web80404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <f5e00c450805031018i356b59e1v465baf3ec2f7b68f@mail.gmail.com>
	<988195.54791.qm@web80404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805032022o744482ecv2f691e9f6d68d215@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 10:56 PM, John Harig <radiodurans at yahoo.com> wrote:
> They shut it down for liability reasons?  That seems
>  odd. I think they still have an auto repair area. . .

It's not entirely shut down, but they're now more limited in what
they're allowed to do.

>
>  If he wants to provide a quote for it Ill run it past
>  my brother, otherwise he'll probably mail it to some
>  guy in MN.
>
>  I need soldering lessons and tools :).  I havent
>  soldered since I played with telephone wires when I
>  was younger.  Looks like many good recommendations on
>  the thread.
>
>
>
>  --- Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  > On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:10 PM, John Harig
>  > <radiodurans at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  > > Hi my brother is suffering a loose AC jack on his
>  > old
>  > >  inspiron 5150 laptop so it wont charge. I dont
>  > know
>  > >  much about this but I would guess he would need
>  > to get
>  > >  a new Jack and solder it on, something I know
>  > nothing
>  > >  about. Googling I found the following:
>  > >
>  > >
>  >
>  http://pomeroycomputing.blogspot.com/2007/10/dell-inspiron-5150.html
>  > >
>  > >  Any ideas to get it repaired?
>  >
>  > It's a tricky, tricky job.  I've had it happen on
>  > three laptops.  Each
>  > time, I had it fixed by a different person.  Two out
>  > of the three were
>  > successful, but one laptop wound up junked.
>  >
>  > It's an easy job to royally mess up; I wouldn't
>  > touch it if you don't
>  > have a reasonable amount of experience with
>  > soldering.
>  >
>  > OTOH, I can ask a guy I trust (one who didn't break
>  > a laptop) if he'd
>  > be willing to fix it for a fee.  He was the guy I
>  > had doing laptop
>  > repair at the GRCC PC Clinic, but, for liability
>  > reasons, GRCC is
>  > clamping down on students doing internal repairs on
>  > PCs.
>  >
>  > --
>  > :wq
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
>  > grlug mailing list
>  > grlug at grlug.org
>  >
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>  >
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
:wq

From mikemol at gmail.com  Sat May  3 23:29:11 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 23:29:11 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Loose AC jack on Dell laptop repair
In-Reply-To: <988195.54791.qm@web80404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <f5e00c450805031018i356b59e1v465baf3ec2f7b68f@mail.gmail.com>
	<988195.54791.qm@web80404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805032029l5b626540ncab234a8dcffdb93@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 10:56 PM, John Harig <radiodurans at yahoo.com> wrote:
> They shut it down for liability reasons?  That seems
>  odd. I think they still have an auto repair area. . .
>
>  If he wants to provide a quote for it Ill run it past
>  my brother, otherwise he'll probably mail it to some
>  guy in MN.

I forwarded your earlier email to him.  I'm copying him this one, too.

>
>  I need soldering lessons and tools :).  I havent
>  soldered since I played with telephone wires when I
>  was younger.  Looks like many good recommendations on
>  the thread.
>
>
>
>  --- Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  > On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:10 PM, John Harig
>  > <radiodurans at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  > > Hi my brother is suffering a loose AC jack on his
>  > old
>  > >  inspiron 5150 laptop so it wont charge. I dont
>  > know
>  > >  much about this but I would guess he would need
>  > to get
>  > >  a new Jack and solder it on, something I know
>  > nothing
>  > >  about. Googling I found the following:
>  > >
>  > >
>  >
>  http://pomeroycomputing.blogspot.com/2007/10/dell-inspiron-5150.html
>  > >
>  > >  Any ideas to get it repaired?
>  >
>  > It's a tricky, tricky job.  I've had it happen on
>  > three laptops.  Each
>  > time, I had it fixed by a different person.  Two out
>  > of the three were
>  > successful, but one laptop wound up junked.
>  >
>  > It's an easy job to royally mess up; I wouldn't
>  > touch it if you don't
>  > have a reasonable amount of experience with
>  > soldering.
>  >
>  > OTOH, I can ask a guy I trust (one who didn't break
>  > a laptop) if he'd
>  > be willing to fix it for a fee.  He was the guy I
>  > had doing laptop
>  > repair at the GRCC PC Clinic, but, for liability
>  > reasons, GRCC is
>  > clamping down on students doing internal repairs on
>  > PCs.
>  >
>  > --
>  > :wq
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
>  > grlug mailing list
>  > grlug at grlug.org
>  >
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>  >
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
:wq

From geektoyz at gmail.com  Sun May  4 01:25:40 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 01:25:40 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] DVD playing in Ubuntu (quick how-to)
In-Reply-To: <20080503171311.GA27328@blorp.plorb.com>
References: <8b72b8d10805022123i3b068e68g8eaff3a3ceb18484@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209814472.29305.1.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<8b72b8d10805030901i2ce945aam1f4fb2139fe9ad71@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080503171311.GA27328@blorp.plorb.com>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805032225r1b5db41ej69cb5e6858b2fcd5@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, tre' kewl.

G-

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Jeff DeFouw <jeffd at i2k.com> wrote:
> On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 12:01:57PM -0400, Godwin wrote:
>  > Interesting... "install-css.sh" not there in Debian.  :-(
>
>  debian-multimedia.org has a libdvdcss2 package.  It's even suggested
>  when you install libdvdread3.
>
>  --
>  Jeff DeFouw <jeffd at i2k.com>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Sun May  4 10:41:15 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 14:41:15 +0000
Subject: [GRLUG] Loose AC jack on Dell laptop repair
In-Reply-To: <ca1715f80805031705o447f94eexbbb9856b8224587d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1209758843.5393.12.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<596323.53377.qm@web80401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805030918l39999d8ek39a7571e6a770fd1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080503184902.GA25645@jrichards.org>
	<ca1715f80805031705o447f94eexbbb9856b8224587d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805040741j116b078bm2a9a19611bb3ba1b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:05 AM, Justin Popa <tehpopa at gmail.com> wrote:
> The biggest difference between the $15 or $50 cheapies at RS, and a decent
> Weller unit is as follows:
>
> 1) Adjustable temperature
> 2) Swap different tips in and out

It's not just that...  at least the weller tip seems to stay tinned
for MUCH longer than the RS units - probably made out of a different
material.  Also, the weller seems to have much less of a problem
maintaining a steady temperature - even while pouring heat into big
joints.  Those two things alone made a giant difference for some of my
first projects.

--tim

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Mon May  5 07:54:21 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 07:54:21 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Email overload
In-Reply-To: <1209659578.30546.186.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
References: <4818CA6A.8060205@kkmfg.com>
	<1209659578.30546.186.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
Message-ID: <481EF56D.3010904@kkmfg.com>

  A follow up to the discussion on this:

I just saw on /. that they were talking about this same thing. Here is a 
link to a post talking about how to filter out backscatter while still 
allowing legit bounces to get through:

http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=543134&cid=23298538

Essentially, the idea is to add a custom header to all emails you send. 
Then only accept bounce messages which have the custom header in them. 
This seems like a good plan to me.

From tehpopa at gmail.com  Mon May  5 09:18:35 2008
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:18:35 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Loose AC jack on Dell laptop repair
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805040741j116b078bm2a9a19611bb3ba1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1209758843.5393.12.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<596323.53377.qm@web80401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805030918l39999d8ek39a7571e6a770fd1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080503184902.GA25645@jrichards.org>
	<ca1715f80805031705o447f94eexbbb9856b8224587d@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805040741j116b078bm2a9a19611bb3ba1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca1715f80805050618x2cb67e83m9e54dbee2da99521@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah I didn't go that in depth, because my two reasons to own a weller are
above. It's really handy to have a tip that can do surface mount in the
event that you ever have to replace a smd component. However, you also have
a great point. I've used mine for a few small projects, and a dozens of
simple fixes over the years, and I've only had to replace a tip once I
think.

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:05 AM, Justin Popa <tehpopa at gmail.com> wrote:
> > The biggest difference between the $15 or $50 cheapies at RS, and a
> decent
> > Weller unit is as follows:
> >
> > 1) Adjustable temperature
> > 2) Swap different tips in and out
>
> It's not just that...  at least the weller tip seems to stay tinned
> for MUCH longer than the RS units - probably made out of a different
> material.  Also, the weller seems to have much less of a problem
> maintaining a steady temperature - even while pouring heat into big
> joints.  Those two things alone made a giant difference for some of my
> first projects.
>
> --tim
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080505/a276e4b9/attachment.htm 

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Mon May  5 11:51:48 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 11:51:48 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] DVD playing in Ubuntu (quick how-to)
In-Reply-To: <20080503171311.GA27328@blorp.plorb.com>
References: <8b72b8d10805022123i3b068e68g8eaff3a3ceb18484@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209814472.29305.1.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<8b72b8d10805030901i2ce945aam1f4fb2139fe9ad71@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080503171311.GA27328@blorp.plorb.com>
Message-ID: <1210002708.6210.1.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>

I have suggests automagically turned on for install. Sorry, I shoulda
clarified that.


On Sat, 2008-05-03 at 13:13 -0400, Jeff DeFouw wrote:
> On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 12:01:57PM -0400, Godwin wrote:
> > Interesting... "install-css.sh" not there in Debian.  :-(
> 
> debian-multimedia.org has a libdvdcss2 package.  It's even suggested 
> when you install libdvdread3.
> 
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080505/23ddd4be/attachment-0001.pgp 

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Tue May  6 11:43:47 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 11:43:47 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Some advice/comment
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805060843w6d3dc534j441d1c310676d656@mail.gmail.com>

I was think about give some comment to GRLUG member, I dont care if
they against me but I want to say

1: When I asked GRLUG for help with BSOD, I know I emailed at wrong place.
Question: IF I ASKED WRONG PLACE
Advice: Dont be angry and blaming on their operation system, just
GUIDE them to right place from wrong place.
Comment: Few people blamed me about Vista (I am not tell you who did,
it is against policy for tell who)

and I have one thing to say for GRLUG

most of GRLUG think Linux is best than Windows, I know it is but...

Any of OS can get BSOD
Linux bsod: http://www.miguelcarrasco.net/miguelcarrasco/WindowsLiveWriter/LinuxCrashTop10_AAB/linux_crash_1_thumb.jpg

However, NEXT TIME, dont lose your temper when someone asked wrong
place for help, just guide them to right place before you can lose
temper


Joke for you:
IF you lose your temper, I definitely will call firefighter and send
them to see you then grab hose and blow you with cold water that will
cool your temper down :)

P.S. I know my english is not good, but I use American Sign Language
more than English.

-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha

From networkman at triton.net  Tue May  6 12:28:50 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (Rich Nagel)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 12:28:50 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Some advice/comment
References: <aecf8abe0805060843w6d3dc534j441d1c310676d656@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002801c8af96$44f32600$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>

It would've been nice to have just let this go as was, but since the 
Professor has brought it up again...

You emailed the wrong place for support of a Windows question.  Great - 
we've all figured that out.  Additionally, bad attitudes both by the 
original poster and some of those responding were also present.  Great - got 
that too.

*I* was one of the folks to say that I was NOT running Vista, nor would I 
ever CARE TO at this point, and I cheerfully gladly say it AGAIN RIGHT NOW!! 
And I'm still primarily a Microsoft Windows user/tech!  Vista just doesn't 
offer me anything that I can't already do via the stable and mature product 
in XP Pro.  That may not hold true for some, but it does for me. 
Additionally, nearly every technician I've spoken to has held a similar view 
of Vista, plus it's got problems and shortcomings that far outweigh any of 
the negligible benefits; many of these same techs are spending inordinate 
amounts of time fixing problems that just don't exist in XP Pro with the 
same applications, be they productivity or entertainment related.  Add to 
this the fact that Microsoft is practically shoving Vista down our throats 
with all new systems and you have the makings for very upset technicians and 
support staff, as well as ticked off end-users who can't play their games 
and get equally as upset.  One can then easily understand the reason that 
some would say, "Hey, check out Linux!"  And I'm quite happy they have, 
because it's part of the reason that I'm more seriously looking at it[Linux] 
as an alternative.

Although my attitude at first may not have been the best(for the above 
reason(s)), I did stil choose to be involved and provide additional links to 
resources to assist you with your request.

I'm not following your "joke", but perhaps there is a translation issue 
somewhere along the way.. or maybe some dropped packets.

Rich


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Professor Inuyasha" <profinuyasha at gmail.com>
To: <grlug at grlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:43 AM
Subject: [GRLUG] Some advice/comment


>I was think about give some comment to GRLUG member, I dont care if
> they against me but I want to say
>
> 1: When I asked GRLUG for help with BSOD, I know I emailed at wrong place.
> Question: IF I ASKED WRONG PLACE
> Advice: Dont be angry and blaming on their operation system, just
> GUIDE them to right place from wrong place.
> Comment: Few people blamed me about Vista (I am not tell you who did,
> it is against policy for tell who)
>
> and I have one thing to say for GRLUG
>
> most of GRLUG think Linux is best than Windows, I know it is but...
>
> Any of OS can get BSOD
> Linux bsod: 
> http://www.miguelcarrasco.net/miguelcarrasco/WindowsLiveWriter/LinuxCrashTop10_AAB/linux_crash_1_thumb.jpg
>
> However, NEXT TIME, dont lose your temper when someone asked wrong
> place for help, just guide them to right place before you can lose
> temper
>
>
> Joke for you:
> IF you lose your temper, I definitely will call firefighter and send
> them to see you then grab hose and blow you with cold water that will
> cool your temper down :)
>
> P.S. I know my english is not good, but I use American Sign Language
> more than English.
>
> -- 
> ------------------
> Professor Inuyasha
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> 


From geektoyz at gmail.com  Wed May  7 12:38:19 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 12:38:19 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Split multiplage postscript into individual pages
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805070938l3a2bcf1at977768fb677f8630@mail.gmail.com>

So, the goal is to take a 500 or so page PS file and split it into 500
individual pages.  I know, you're thinking "dude, easy!  Just type
this:

gs -r600 -sDEVICE=pswrite -sOutputFile=outfile_%03d.ps -dNOPAUSE
inputfile.ps -c quit

and voila!"

Yeah, but the output is "binary" postscript not "text", so I lose the
ability to search for strings like "John Doe".  Does anyone know how
to split to "text" PS and keep layout/form?

thanks,
G-

-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Wed May  7 13:14:55 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 13:14:55 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Split multiplage postscript into individual pages
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10805070938l3a2bcf1at977768fb677f8630@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8b72b8d10805070938l3a2bcf1at977768fb677f8630@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210180495.14999.25.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 12:38 -0400, Godwin wrote:
> So, the goal is to take a 500 or so page PS file and split it into 500
> individual pages.  I know, you're thinking "dude, easy!  Just type
> this:
> 
> gs -r600 -sDEVICE=pswrite -sOutputFile=outfile_%03d.ps -dNOPAUSE
> inputfile.ps -c quit
> 
> and voila!"
> 
> Yeah, but the output is "binary" postscript not "text", so I lose the
> ability to search for strings like "John Doe".  Does anyone know how
> to split to "text" PS and keep layout/form?

Convert it to 500 - 1 page PDFs and then inline it to "formatted text"?

I'm working on a couple hours of sleep since Monday... so I amy be out
of the ball park.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080507/8c402204/attachment.pgp 

From jjfoerch at earthlink.net  Wed May  7 13:18:02 2008
From: jjfoerch at earthlink.net (John J Foerch)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:18:02 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG]  Split multiplage postscript into individual pages
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10805070938l3a2bcf1at977768fb677f8630@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8b72b8d10805070938l3a2bcf1at977768fb677f8630@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18465.58442.85366.156638@gargle.gargle.HOWL>


Godwin writes:
 > So, the goal is to take a 500 or so page PS file and split it into 500
 > individual pages.  I know, you're thinking "dude, easy!  Just type
 > this:
 > 
 > gs -r600 -sDEVICE=pswrite -sOutputFile=outfile_%03d.ps -dNOPAUSE
 > inputfile.ps -c quit
 > 
 > and voila!"
 > 
 > Yeah, but the output is "binary" postscript not "text", so I lose the
 > ability to search for strings like "John Doe".  Does anyone know how
 > to split to "text" PS and keep layout/form?
 > 
 > thanks,
 > G-

If you convert your ps to pdf, you can use pdftk:

  pdftk in.pdf burst

-- 
John Foerch

From slestak989 at gmail.com  Wed May  7 13:43:28 2008
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:43:28 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Split multiplage postscript into individual pages
In-Reply-To: <18465.58442.85366.156638@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
References: <8b72b8d10805070938l3a2bcf1at977768fb677f8630@mail.gmail.com>
	<18465.58442.85366.156638@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
Message-ID: <ef8ba6540805071043o3e203421wf5573ba9412a8656@mail.gmail.com>

or ps2pdf

From geektoyz at gmail.com  Wed May  7 17:36:23 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 17:36:23 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Split multiplage postscript into individual pages
In-Reply-To: <ef8ba6540805071043o3e203421wf5573ba9412a8656@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8b72b8d10805070938l3a2bcf1at977768fb677f8630@mail.gmail.com>
	<18465.58442.85366.156638@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
	<ef8ba6540805071043o3e203421wf5573ba9412a8656@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805071436pa4eff6cyf34fadcaa77012fc@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, I can split/convert to PDF/TIFF alright.  The problem is that both
PS and PDF output have (what I call) "binary" output like this:


12 0 obj<</Length 1033/Filter/FlateDecode>>stream
H????o?H???+???b??????
b?3nN???,?R7|D?6???7k'?C
A?:)???m<;???yf??Q?,?Y?uN?B??A??C?}?  ?gp


So all my text is gone.  The ultimate goal here is to split a large
file into individual pages then look for certain text within the page
to rename the file as such:  "search for ClientNum in PS, rename
doc_page0003.ps to clientnum_page0003.ps" then convert that to TIFF.
The format of the original PS file must be non-standard, which
obsfucates most "ps2..." utilities, but Adobe Acrobat (Distiller) can
process/convert to PDF just fine.

PDFTK looks promising though.  I'm gonna check it out.  Thanks!


Filename: pool/universe/p/pdftk/pdftk_1.40-2_i386.deb
Size: 939276
MD5sum: 2143d5315002c73d889ab3ca211bcfea

Description: A useful tool for manipulating PDF documents
 If PDF is electronic paper, then pdftk is an electronic stapler-remover,
 hole-punch, binder, secret-decoder-ring, and X-Ray-glasses. Pdftk is a
 simple tool for doing everyday things with PDF documents. Keep one in the
 top drawer of your desktop and use it to:
  - Merge PDF documents
  - Split PDF pages into a new document
  - Decrypt input as necessary (password required)
  - Encrypt output as desired
  - Fill PDF Forms with FDF Data and/or Flatten Forms
  - Apply a Background Watermark
  - Report PDF on metrics, including metadata and bookmarks
  - Update PDF Metadata
  - Attach Files to PDF Pages or the PDF Document
  - Unpack PDF Attachments
  - Burst a PDF document into single pages
  - Uncompress and re-compress page streams
  - Repair corrupted PDF (where possible)


On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Steve Romanow <slestak989 at gmail.com> wrote:
> or ps2pdf
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From jjfoerch at earthlink.net  Wed May  7 18:33:48 2008
From: jjfoerch at earthlink.net (John J Foerch)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 18:33:48 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Split multiplage postscript into individual pages
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10805071436pa4eff6cyf34fadcaa77012fc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8b72b8d10805070938l3a2bcf1at977768fb677f8630@mail.gmail.com>
	<18465.58442.85366.156638@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
	<ef8ba6540805071043o3e203421wf5573ba9412a8656@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b72b8d10805071436pa4eff6cyf34fadcaa77012fc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18466.11852.884045.254336@gargle.gargle.HOWL>

Godwin writes:
 > Oh, I can split/convert to PDF/TIFF alright.  The problem is that both
 > PS and PDF output have (what I call) "binary" output like this:
 > 

Hi Godwin,

The terms I use are "vector format" and "rasterized format".  You
correctly observed that gs can only create rasterized output, because
its function is to render documents into bitmaps.  This terminology
may not be official, but it is commonly used in connection with
imagemagick, a program/library I use a lot.

Do you still need a way to convert vector-PS to vector-PDF, or are you set?

-- 
John Foerch

From geektoyz at gmail.com  Wed May  7 18:55:22 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 18:55:22 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Split multiplage postscript into individual pages
In-Reply-To: <18466.11852.884045.254336@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
References: <8b72b8d10805070938l3a2bcf1at977768fb677f8630@mail.gmail.com>
	<18465.58442.85366.156638@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
	<ef8ba6540805071043o3e203421wf5573ba9412a8656@mail.gmail.com>
	<8b72b8d10805071436pa4eff6cyf34fadcaa77012fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<18466.11852.884045.254336@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805071555k5781d2edje340ffd6820d6dc@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks John, I'm playing with "ps2pdf", "pdftk" and "pdftotext" with
output to standard out to do this:

1. convert original PS to PDF
2. Split PDF into individual files (pdftk infile.pdf burst)
3. Use pdftotext and send output to STDOUT to parse (with grep, awk,
etc.) for the desired string.

Now I just have to rename the PDF (single page) file then finally
convert to TIFF.  I need individual TIFF images named in such a way as
to have a 3rd party software import those and categorize them based on
their name - so that an in-house web-driven gui allows users to
process them.  Yeah, rather convoluted.  I think I'm on the right
track (for now).  I'll post again if I run into something.

Thanks all,
G-



On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 6:33 PM, John J Foerch <jjfoerch at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Godwin writes:
>   > Oh, I can split/convert to PDF/TIFF alright.  The problem is that both
>   > PS and PDF output have (what I call) "binary" output like this:
>   >
>
>  Hi Godwin,
>
>  The terms I use are "vector format" and "rasterized format".  You
>  correctly observed that gs can only create rasterized output, because
>  its function is to render documents into bitmaps.  This terminology
>  may not be official, but it is commonly used in connection with
>  imagemagick, a program/library I use a lot.
>
>  Do you still need a way to convert vector-PS to vector-PDF, or are you set?
>
>  --
>  John Foerch
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From radiodurans at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 21:27:29 2008
From: radiodurans at yahoo.com (John Harig)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 18:27:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] Split multiplage postscript into individual pages
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10805071555k5781d2edje340ffd6820d6dc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51897.93441.qm@web80403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I came home from work tonight and saw your posting,
and decided that I would try to come up with a
solution.

I still feel like a newbie but I really want to learn
and I have some LaTeX experience so. . . 

Borrowing from a couple different sources I think I
have come up with an elegant solution. . .and I'm a
bit happy that I figured it out more or less on my own
from references and googling.

1) Install psutils if you haven't already, to use
psselect
2) Write a script with bash for psselect (I don't know
bash but it didn't take me too long to figure this out
with a little help from references)

3) This is what i came up with for your case to enter
at bash prompt:

for page in `seq 1 500`; do psselect -p$page infile.ps
outfile$page.ps; done

I tested it on a 15 page ps (for page in `seq 1 15`)
and it worked perfectly :)

--- Godwin <geektoyz at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks John, I'm playing with "ps2pdf", "pdftk" and
> "pdftotext" with
> output to standard out to do this:
> 
> 1. convert original PS to PDF
> 2. Split PDF into individual files (pdftk infile.pdf
> burst)
> 3. Use pdftotext and send output to STDOUT to parse
> (with grep, awk,
> etc.) for the desired string.
> 
> Now I just have to rename the PDF (single page) file
> then finally
> convert to TIFF.  I need individual TIFF images
> named in such a way as
> to have a 3rd party software import those and
> categorize them based on
> their name - so that an in-house web-driven gui
> allows users to
> process them.  Yeah, rather convoluted.  I think I'm
> on the right
> track (for now).  I'll post again if I run into
> something.
> 
> Thanks all,
> G-
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 6:33 PM, John J Foerch
> <jjfoerch at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Godwin writes:
> >   > Oh, I can split/convert to PDF/TIFF alright. 
> The problem is that both
> >   > PS and PDF output have (what I call) "binary"
> output like this:
> >   >
> >
> >  Hi Godwin,
> >
> >  The terms I use are "vector format" and
> "rasterized format".  You
> >  correctly observed that gs can only create
> rasterized output, because
> >  its function is to render documents into bitmaps.
>  This terminology
> >  may not be official, but it is commonly used in
> connection with
> >  imagemagick, a program/library I use a lot.
> >
> >  Do you still need a way to convert vector-PS to
> vector-PDF, or are you set?
> >
> >  --
> >  John Foerch
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >  grlug mailing list
> >  grlug at grlug.org
> > 
>
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Ubber::Geek
> http://grlug.org/
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
>
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 


From geektoyz at gmail.com  Thu May  8 00:43:14 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 00:43:14 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Split multiplage postscript into individual pages
In-Reply-To: <51897.93441.qm@web80403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <8b72b8d10805071555k5781d2edje340ffd6820d6dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<51897.93441.qm@web80403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805072143sa89a3dbu124cd97b61f1ad9a@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks John, it's helpful indeed.   I'll get back into it tomorrow (or
rather 9 hours from now), where I think I found a good combo.  Your
solution, though, opens up the possibility of skipping one extra step
for me (converting from original PS to PDF).  I'd have to know the
number of pages, which always vary, but I can (somewhat) easily
extract that from the original PS.

I can probably then use "ps2ascii" and grep STDOUT for a particular
string - in order to rename the original file.  Simple ps2tiff
conversion after that and I'm in business.

Wow, thanks gang.  GRLUG rocks!  (...and not just 'cause I'm one of
the original founders - and Eric).   I know, cheesy.  Feel free to
flame.  I'll redirect to /dev/null.   ;-)

cheers,
G-


On 5/7/08, John Harig <radiodurans at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I came home from work tonight and saw your posting,
>  and decided that I would try to come up with a
>  solution.
>
>  I still feel like a newbie but I really want to learn
>  and I have some LaTeX experience so. . .
>
>  Borrowing from a couple different sources I think I
>  have come up with an elegant solution. . .and I'm a
>  bit happy that I figured it out more or less on my own
>  from references and googling.
>
>  1) Install psutils if you haven't already, to use
>  psselect
>  2) Write a script with bash for psselect (I don't know
>  bash but it didn't take me too long to figure this out
>  with a little help from references)
>
>  3) This is what i came up with for your case to enter
>  at bash prompt:
>
>  for page in `seq 1 500`; do psselect -p$page infile.ps
>  outfile$page.ps; done
>
>  I tested it on a 15 page ps (for page in `seq 1 15`)
>  and it worked perfectly :)
>
>
>  --- Godwin <geektoyz at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  > Thanks John, I'm playing with "ps2pdf", "pdftk" and
>  > "pdftotext" with
>  > output to standard out to do this:
>  >
>  > 1. convert original PS to PDF
>  > 2. Split PDF into individual files (pdftk infile.pdf
>  > burst)
>  > 3. Use pdftotext and send output to STDOUT to parse
>  > (with grep, awk,
>  > etc.) for the desired string.
>  >
>  > Now I just have to rename the PDF (single page) file
>  > then finally
>  > convert to TIFF.  I need individual TIFF images
>  > named in such a way as
>  > to have a 3rd party software import those and
>  > categorize them based on
>  > their name - so that an in-house web-driven gui
>  > allows users to
>  > process them.  Yeah, rather convoluted.  I think I'm
>  > on the right
>  > track (for now).  I'll post again if I run into
>  > something.
>  >
>  > Thanks all,
>  > G-
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 6:33 PM, John J Foerch
>  > <jjfoerch at earthlink.net> wrote:
>  > > Godwin writes:
>  > >   > Oh, I can split/convert to PDF/TIFF alright.
>  > The problem is that both
>  > >   > PS and PDF output have (what I call) "binary"
>  > output like this:
>  > >   >
>  > >
>  > >  Hi Godwin,
>  > >
>  > >  The terms I use are "vector format" and
>  > "rasterized format".  You
>  > >  correctly observed that gs can only create
>  > rasterized output, because
>  > >  its function is to render documents into bitmaps.
>  >  This terminology
>  > >  may not be official, but it is commonly used in
>  > connection with
>  > >  imagemagick, a program/library I use a lot.
>  > >
>  > >  Do you still need a way to convert vector-PS to
>  > vector-PDF, or are you set?
>  > >
>  > >  --
>  > >  John Foerch
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > _______________________________________________
>  > >  grlug mailing list
>  > >  grlug at grlug.org
>  > >
>  >
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>  > >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > --
>  >
>  > Ubber::Geek
>  > http://grlug.org/
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > grlug mailing list
>  > grlug at grlug.org
>  >
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>  >
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>


-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From slestak989 at gmail.com  Thu May  8 08:19:49 2008
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 08:19:49 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Split multiplage postscript into individual pages
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10805072143sa89a3dbu124cd97b61f1ad9a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8b72b8d10805071555k5781d2edje340ffd6820d6dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<51897.93441.qm@web80403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8b72b8d10805072143sa89a3dbu124cd97b61f1ad9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ef8ba6540805080519s3cabd372secfbe2942c6963e2@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe make a 1st pass through the data just to get the customer
breaks, then burst it on a second pass.

This conversation I think is going to help me later in the season when
I have to create some vendor showbooks.

From grlug at tankrip.com  Thu May  8 10:00:45 2008
From: grlug at tankrip.com (Colin Vallance)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:00:45 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Dell Openmanage and linux
Message-ID: <7C0B82CA-0019-48CA-8237-E83A81798BA4@tankrip.com>

I've got a Dell Poweredge 750 that I'm going to be putting in to  
production for personal use and I was wondering if anyone has  
experience with using Open Manage in linux.  I've never installed it  
myself so I don't really know where to begin.  I've used it on Windows  
servers that came factory direct from Dell with it pre-installed so I  
know it's a valuable tool.  Anyone gone through that setup before?

-Colin

From topher at wcsg.org  Thu May  8 10:32:44 2008
From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:32:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] covad
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0805081031500.17736@boktor>

So I read today that Vonage is going to start selling DSL through Covad. 
Anyone ever used Covad, and where they fall on the evil-ness meter?

Topher
Manager of Internet Services
Cornerstone University Radio

------
"To scoff is...easy, but to go on in the way of scoffing and do what is right
is the way of a man."
                         -- Louis L'Amour, The Lonesome Gods

From tehpopa at gmail.com  Thu May  8 11:03:08 2008
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:03:08 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] covad
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0805081031500.17736@boktor>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0805081031500.17736@boktor>
Message-ID: <ca1715f80805080803x5c5c3b65md6b0b456c3abefd6@mail.gmail.com>

We use them for our ISP at all our office locations. I like them alright,
but their billing department has been semi-interesting in the past.

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Topher <topher at wcsg.org> wrote:

> So I read today that Vonage is going to start selling DSL through Covad.
> Anyone ever used Covad, and where they fall on the evil-ness meter?
>
> Topher
> Manager of Internet Services
> Cornerstone University Radio
>
> ------
> "To scoff is...easy, but to go on in the way of scoffing and do what is
> right
> is the way of a man."
>                         -- Louis L'Amour, The Lonesome Gods
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080508/471c0d40/attachment-0001.htm 

From carlushenry at gmail.com  Thu May  8 11:56:38 2008
From: carlushenry at gmail.com (Carlus Henry)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:56:38 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Joint Meeting :- GR-LUG and GR-JUG
Message-ID: <f9688a930805080856o45925638l44c9dbf45be3f88a@mail.gmail.com>

Hey everyone,

My name is Carlus Henry, and I have been lurking on your user group for a
very long time now.  :)

I am one of the administrators for the Grand Rapids Java User
Group<http://gr-jug.org>.
Casey and I have been talking about having a joint meeting, between our
groups July 17th at Calvin College.  The GRJUG has been trying to reach out
to other local technical user groups in the area, in an interest to learn
more about them, and to form good relationships.

During our last conversation, Casey, Dave (also an administrator of the
GRJUG), were struggling to come up with a format for our meeting.  For the
most part, the format of the GRJUG meetings are more presentation style
oriented.

In the interest to have a good meeting, I would like to get some feedback
and thoughts from you on what you would like to see from a joint meeting of
our respective groups.  Should we have a formal presentation style meeting
or should we have a more workshop style?  What topics should we discuss?

Your input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
-- 
Carlus Henry
SageTech L.L.C.
616.295.0149 cell
www.sagetech-llc.com | http://jdcarlflip.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080508/727f5628/attachment.htm 

From carlushenry at sagetech-llc.com  Thu May  8 11:57:20 2008
From: carlushenry at sagetech-llc.com (Carlus Henry)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:57:20 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Joint Meeting :- GR-LUG and GR-JUG
Message-ID: <f9688a930805080857h47793ea4y2499cb3f98d7959c@mail.gmail.com>

Hey everyone,

My name is Carlus Henry, and I have been lurking on your user group for a
very long time now.  :)

I am one of the administrators for the Grand Rapids Java User
Group<http://gr-jug.org/>.
Casey and I have been talking about having a joint meeting, between our
groups July 17th at Calvin College.  The GRJUG has been trying to reach out
to other local technical user groups in the area, in an interest to learn
more about them, and to form good relationships.

During our last conversation, Casey, Dave (also an administrator of the
GRJUG), were struggling to come up with a format for our meeting.  For the
most part, the format of the GRJUG meetings are more presentation style
oriented.

In the interest to have a good meeting, I would like to get some feedback
and thoughts from you on what you would like to see from a joint meeting of
our respective groups.  Should we have a formal presentation style meeting
or should we have a more workshop style?  What topics should we discuss?

Your input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
-- 
Carlus Henry
SageTech L.L.C.
616.295.0149 cell
www.sagetech-llc.com | http://jdcarlflip.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080508/8ff95d7c/attachment.htm 

From brousch at gmail.com  Thu May  8 12:04:46 2008
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:04:46 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Joint Meeting :- GR-LUG and GR-JUG
In-Reply-To: <f9688a930805080856o45925638l44c9dbf45be3f88a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f9688a930805080856o45925638l44c9dbf45be3f88a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d92a2d930805080904s6afcad1dq319561700c0ef5d0@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Carlus Henry <carlushenry at gmail.com> wrote:

> In the interest to have a good meeting, I would like to get some feedback
> and thoughts from you on what you would like to see from a joint meeting of
> our respective groups.  Should we have a formal presentation style meeting
> or should we have a more workshop style?  What topics should we discuss?
>

I didn't  realize there was a GRJUG, so you at least got one new recruit
(me) out of this proposal.

As for discussion topics, I would suggest starting with a presentation on
where Java and Linux intersect, and all of the software Sun has been open
sourcing lately. You could also present on the many Java programs for Linux:
Eclipse, Netbeans, Tomcat, and Glassfish co0me immediately to mind.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080508/7039cf15/attachment.htm 

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Thu May  8 13:41:57 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 13:41:57 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Joint Meeting :- GR-LUG and GR-JUG
In-Reply-To: <d92a2d930805080904s6afcad1dq319561700c0ef5d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f9688a930805080856o45925638l44c9dbf45be3f88a@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805080904s6afcad1dq319561700c0ef5d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210268517.4815.2.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>


> >In the interest to have a good meeting, I would like to get some
> >feedback and thoughts from you on what you would like to see from a
> >joint meeting of our respective groups.  Should we have a formal
> >presentation style meeting or should we have a more workshop style?
> >What topics should we discuss?

> I didn't  realize there was a GRJUG, so you at least got one new
> recruit (me) out of this proposal.

At any meeting anywhere I'd really like to see a presentation by someone
who understands JBoss/Tomcat/Jetty on the architecture and configuration
of those monsters for the Sys-Admin who isn't a Java jockey.  Entry
level documentation target at the poor sap who has to install and
configure (not develop) those kinds of applications is really lacking.

Unfortunately, either way, I'll probably be in Australia during the
month of July.



From casey at grlug.org  Thu May  8 14:27:17 2008
From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 14:27:17 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Joint Meeting :- GR-LUG and GR-JUG
In-Reply-To: <1210268517.4815.2.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <f9688a930805080856o45925638l44c9dbf45be3f88a@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805080904s6afcad1dq319561700c0ef5d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210268517.4815.2.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <f0ffba670805081127o62c6e344rd1ffb8f46a43ba68@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
<adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >In the interest to have a good meeting, I would like to get some
>> >feedback and thoughts from you on what you would like to see from a
>> >joint meeting of our respective groups.  Should we have a formal
>> >presentation style meeting or should we have a more workshop style?
>> >What topics should we discuss?
>
>> I didn't  realize there was a GRJUG, so you at least got one new
>> recruit (me) out of this proposal.
>
> At any meeting anywhere I'd really like to see a presentation by someone
> who understands JBoss/Tomcat/Jetty on the architecture and configuration
> of those monsters for the Sys-Admin who isn't a Java jockey.  Entry
> level documentation target at the poor sap who has to install and
> configure (not develop) those kinds of applications is really lacking.
>
> Unfortunately, either way, I'll probably be in Australia during the
> month of July.
>


My goal was to record this meeting (podcast type dealio) for those
unable to attend.
Casey

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Thu May  8 20:47:27 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 20:47:27 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] covad
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0805081031500.17736@boktor>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0805081031500.17736@boktor>
Message-ID: <1210294047.20058.4.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 10:32 -0400, Topher wrote:
> So I read today that Vonage is going to start selling DSL through Covad. 
> Anyone ever used Covad, and where they fall on the evil-ness meter?

Covad Provisions for a huge amount of GOOD DSL providers. I mean
nationwide.

They have a very good infrastructure and emerged from bankruptcy a few
(5?) years ago in *MUCH* better shape than it was expected.

Since then, they have been very shrewd and very strategic, buy failing
companies that over extended themselves on expansion. Covad then get the
benefits of newer stuff for about 20 cents on the dollar typically.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080508/3f2c9355/attachment.pgp 

From networkman at triton.net  Thu May  8 20:51:30 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (networkman at triton.net)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 20:51:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] covad
In-Reply-To: <1210294047.20058.4.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0805081031500.17736@boktor>
	<1210294047.20058.4.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <1067.69.11.205.103.1210294290.squirrel@remotemail.triton.net>

Nothing quite like learning from experience! :)

Rich



> On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 10:32 -0400, Topher wrote:
>> So I read today that Vonage is going to start selling DSL through Covad.
>> Anyone ever used Covad, and where they fall on the evil-ness meter?
>
> Covad Provisions for a huge amount of GOOD DSL providers. I mean
> nationwide.
>
> They have a very good infrastructure and emerged from bankruptcy a few
> (5?) years ago in *MUCH* better shape than it was expected.
>
> Since then, they have been very shrewd and very strategic, buy failing
> companies that over extended themselves on expansion. Covad then get the
> benefits of newer stuff for about 20 cents on the dollar typically.
> --
> greg at gregfolkert.net
> PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
> Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
> Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
> Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug



From geektoyz at gmail.com  Thu May  8 21:10:47 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:10:47 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Dell Openmanage and linux
In-Reply-To: <7C0B82CA-0019-48CA-8237-E83A81798BA4@tankrip.com>
References: <7C0B82CA-0019-48CA-8237-E83A81798BA4@tankrip.com>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805081810n451aa2ean90d8f850b60920d0@mail.gmail.com>

Funny, I'm doing the same thing with a PowerEdge 4400 beast.  If/when
I get around to it, I'll post.

G-

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Colin Vallance <grlug at tankrip.com> wrote:
> I've got a Dell Poweredge 750 that I'm going to be putting in to
> production for personal use and I was wondering if anyone has
> experience with using Open Manage in linux.  I've never installed it
> myself so I don't really know where to begin.  I've used it on Windows
> servers that came factory direct from Dell with it pre-installed so I
> know it's a valuable tool.  Anyone gone through that setup before?
>
> -Colin
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From geektoyz at gmail.com  Thu May  8 21:14:28 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:14:28 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Joint Meeting :- GR-LUG and GR-JUG
In-Reply-To: <f0ffba670805081127o62c6e344rd1ffb8f46a43ba68@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f9688a930805080856o45925638l44c9dbf45be3f88a@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805080904s6afcad1dq319561700c0ef5d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210268517.4815.2.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<f0ffba670805081127o62c6e344rd1ffb8f46a43ba68@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805081814m22b04109p4599d7b3c73c2429@mail.gmail.com>

As a sysadmin, not a developer,  I'd be interested in
installation/setup type prez.

G-

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Casey DuBois <casey at grlug.org> wrote:
> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
> <adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >In the interest to have a good meeting, I would like to get some
>>> >feedback and thoughts from you on what you would like to see from a
>>> >joint meeting of our respective groups.  Should we have a formal
>>> >presentation style meeting or should we have a more workshop style?
>>> >What topics should we discuss?
>>
>>> I didn't  realize there was a GRJUG, so you at least got one new
>>> recruit (me) out of this proposal.
>>
>> At any meeting anywhere I'd really like to see a presentation by someone
>> who understands JBoss/Tomcat/Jetty on the architecture and configuration
>> of those monsters for the Sys-Admin who isn't a Java jockey.  Entry
>> level documentation target at the poor sap who has to install and
>> configure (not develop) those kinds of applications is really lacking.
>>
>> Unfortunately, either way, I'll probably be in Australia during the
>> month of July.
>>
>
>
> My goal was to record this meeting (podcast type dealio) for those
> unable to attend.
> Casey
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Thu May  8 21:23:35 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:23:35 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] [One week remind] GRLUG Meeting Thursday May 15th - CUPS &
	gOS
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805081823j47e016b2lf91570af490a56e@mail.gmail.com>

Hello ALL,

GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) May Meeting

Food will be provided so please RSVP to casey at grlug.org so I can make
sure to have enough.

Date and Time:
Thursday May 15th
6:00 PM - 8:00 PM (food will be ready @ 6:00)

Location:
N-Vint, Inc., 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industrial+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.765625&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr&om=1

Presentation: Enterprise Printing via CUPS "Implementing CUPS and
using cups from Windows, Linux, HPUX and AIX"
Additional Topics:
gOS
USB Linux
Open source vs Closed source for Linux

See you soon,
Casey DuBois
Professor Inuyasha

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Thu May  8 22:34:10 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 22:34:10 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] [One week remind] GRLUG Meeting Thursday May 15th
	-	CUPS & gOS
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0805081823j47e016b2lf91570af490a56e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aecf8abe0805081823j47e016b2lf91570af490a56e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210300450.20058.7.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 21:23 -0400, Professor Inuyasha wrote:
> Hello ALL,
> 
> GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) May Meeting
> 
> Food will be provided so please RSVP to casey at grlug.org so I can make
> sure to have enough.
[snip content]
> 
> See you soon,
> Casey DuBois
> Professor Inuyasha

So... explanation is in order.

Multiple personalities?
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080508/7d46452d/attachment.pgp 

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Thu May  8 22:59:25 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 22:59:25 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Joint Meeting :- GR-LUG and GR-JUG
In-Reply-To: <d92a2d930805080904s6afcad1dq319561700c0ef5d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f9688a930805080856o45925638l44c9dbf45be3f88a@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805080904s6afcad1dq319561700c0ef5d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210301965.20058.31.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 12:04 -0400, Ben Rousch wrote:
> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Carlus Henry <carlushenry at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>         In the interest to have a good meeting, I would like to get
>         some feedback and thoughts from you on what you would like to
>         see from a joint meeting of our respective groups.  Should we
>         have a formal presentation style meeting or should we have a
>         more workshop style?  What topics should we discuss?
> 
> I didn't  realize there was a GRJUG, so you at least got one new
> recruit (me) out of this proposal.
> 
> As for discussion topics, I would suggest starting with a presentation
> on where Java and Linux intersect, and all of the software Sun has
> been open sourcing lately. You could also present on the many Java
> programs for Linux: Eclipse, Netbeans, Tomcat, and Glassfish co0me
> immediately to mind.

I just went through setting up an Apache Tomcat v6.0.16 application
server, using Sun Java6 update 5. Just to use a report server called
"i-Net Crystal Clear Plus Report Server"

I also had to figure out why the MySQL Connector J v5.0.16 was screwing
things up. I also had to figure out why _*all*_ the "jars" in a "lib"
directory would not properly load. They were proper jar files (similar
to tar files with manifests in them) but a "standalone listener" would
not run dynamically load them, even though the Java Dynamic Updateable
Loader SAW and cataloged them... it just would not load them all. even
-classpath $WEB-INFDIR/lib wouldn't load them/

All in all, tomcat6 loaded everything just fine after I reverted back to
using the v3.1.2 MySQL Connector J. But I ended up doing a small shell
script to construct a "-classpath"

Its pretty ugly IMO, but it works and my bossman tried something in Perl
and it kept bombing during the loading.


-------------------------------------
#!/bin/bash

JAVA="/usr/local/java6/bin/java"
MEM="-Xms128m -Xmx1000m"
BASECC="/usr/local/tomcat6/webapps/ccr/WEB-INF"
CP="$BASECC/classes"
# Exclude CC-Viewer from Classpath as it blocks logging completely
# But it is needed to deliver to the client, to see the reports
EXCL_JAR="-e CC-Viewer"
HEADLESS="-Djava.awt.headless=true"
PORT="10036"
CMD="com.inet.report.RemoteInterface"


cd $BASECC/lib

JARLIST=`/bin/ls | /bin/grep -i jar | /bin/grep -v -i $EXCL_JAR | /usr/bin/xargs`

for FILE in `echo $JARLIST`
        do
                TEMP=":$BASECC/lib/$FILE"
                CP="$CP$TEMP"
        done

cd $BASECC

$JAVA $MEM -classpath $CP $HEADLESS $CMD $PORT &
?
-------------------------------------

I am actually running this remote interface out of the Tomcat6 deployed
webapps area, mainly because it was told to me it *(W|C)OULD NOT* work
EVER, PERIOD. By Tech Support from the company, as they said logging
wouldn't work.

Only thing I had to do was create a logging fifo so that both tomcat6
and the standalone remote interface could log to the same file without
trouncing each others access to the log file. Then create a "cat"
process to log to the real file. And of course... check for the fifo and
make sure the cat process is running, making a symlink made by doing:
"ln -s /bin/cat /bin/ccr79cat" makes things much simpler.

The remote interface is the "API" interface for the Report server, think
of it JUST like the Tomcat6 report server without the Web-Interface to
post stuff.

Oh, the one thing *I* do need to finger out, is whether or not I have
made a proper "WAR" or Web ARchive and in the proper context so that
Tomcat6 can auto deploy it.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080508/234ce50d/attachment.pgp 

From slestak989 at gmail.com  Fri May  9 08:12:19 2008
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 08:12:19 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Dell Openmanage and linux
In-Reply-To: <7C0B82CA-0019-48CA-8237-E83A81798BA4@tankrip.com>
References: <7C0B82CA-0019-48CA-8237-E83A81798BA4@tankrip.com>
Message-ID: <ef8ba6540805090512n6df5991due6c58ae92dd2dde4@mail.gmail.com>

I have OMA on a poweredge I bought last year with RHEL5.  If the
machine is going to be heavily used, it may not be a good idea.

Note the memory usage below for jsvc and dsm_om_connsvc3.

top - 08:09:44 up 101 days, 13:22, 21 users,  load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.00
Tasks: 421 total,   1 running, 419 sleeping,   0 stopped,   1 zombie
Cpu(s):  0.2%us,  0.6%sy,  0.0%ni, 98.5%id,  0.6%wa,  0.1%hi,  0.0%si,  0.0%st
Mem:   3369660k total,  2933376k used,   436284k free,   679972k buffers
Swap:  2097144k total,     1488k used,  2095656k free,   952148k cached

  PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEM    TIME+  COMMAND
 6280 root      18   0  566m 182m  19m S    0  5.5   2:22.28 jsvc
 7678 root      15   0 34332  27m 6752 S    0  0.8  22:43.86 lwiauthd
 8077 root      18   0  268m  23m   9m S    0  0.7  11:55.78 dsm_om_connsvc3
 3682 apache    15   0 41796  22m 6108 S    0  0.7   0:07.39 httpd
 3681 apache    15   0 41744  22m 6108 S    0  0.7   0:09.00 httpd
 3685 apache    15   0 41240  21m 6120 S    0  0.7   0:08.49 httpd
 3686 apache    15   0 41096  21m 6068 S    0  0.7   0:07.70 httpd
 6415 mysql     16   0  136m  21m 4276 S    0  0.7   0:01.91 mysqld
 3683 apache    15   0 40984  21m 6112 S    0  0.7   0:07.39 httpd

From erickson.adam.m at gmail.com  Fri May  9 08:39:38 2008
From: erickson.adam.m at gmail.com (Adam M. Erickson)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 08:39:38 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Joint Meeting
Message-ID: <7cd69fdf0805090539i448e4da9y1ba04bfd152b29c1@mail.gmail.com>

>   1. Re: Joint Meeting :- GR-LUG and GR-JUG (Casey DuBois)
> My goal was to record this meeting (podcast type dealio) for those
> unable to attend.
> Casey

I would appreciate it if you could record your meetings.

Does anyone know off any technical groups that meet closer to or in Muskegon?
-- 
Sincerely,

Adam M. Erickson
[Technical Support Specialist]

"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton"

From thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com  Fri May  9 08:51:02 2008
From: thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com (Joe Vanderstelt)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 08:51:02 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Joint Meeting :- GR-LUG and GR-JUG
In-Reply-To: <1210268517.4815.2.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <f9688a930805080856o45925638l44c9dbf45be3f88a@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805080904s6afcad1dq319561700c0ef5d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210268517.4815.2.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <cea1322a0805090551s3f32ae1bqebdccc1110850afa@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
<adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >In the interest to have a good meeting, I would like to get some
>> >feedback and thoughts from you on what you would like to see from a
>> >joint meeting of our respective groups.  Should we have a formal
>> >presentation style meeting or should we have a more workshop style?
>> >What topics should we discuss?
>
>> I didn't  realize there was a GRJUG, so you at least got one new
>> recruit (me) out of this proposal.
>
> At any meeting anywhere I'd really like to see a presentation by someone
> who understands JBoss/Tomcat/Jetty on the architecture and configuration
> of those monsters for the Sys-Admin who isn't a Java jockey.  Entry
> level documentation target at the poor sap who has to install and
> configure (not develop) those kinds of applications is really lacking.
>
> Unfortunately, either way, I'll probably be in Australia during the
> month of July.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

I'm going to second that I have a few apps (WebHuddle, Openmeetings)
that run on jBoss/Tomcat and understand nothing about it.

From casey at grlug.org  Fri May  9 08:58:27 2008
From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 08:58:27 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] [One week remind] GRLUG Meeting Thursday May 15th -
	CUPS & gOS
In-Reply-To: <1210300450.20058.7.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <aecf8abe0805081823j47e016b2lf91570af490a56e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210300450.20058.7.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <f0ffba670805090558h79ef791ew93e261201cb070a9@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 10:34 PM, Greg Folkert <greg at gregfolkert.net> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 21:23 -0400, Professor Inuyasha wrote:
>> Hello ALL,
>>
>> GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) May Meeting
>>
>> Food will be provided so please RSVP to casey at grlug.org so I can make
>> sure to have enough.
> [snip content]
>>
>> See you soon,
>> Casey DuBois
>> Professor Inuyasha
>
> So... explanation is in order.
>
> Multiple personalities?
> --
> greg at gregfolkert.net


I have been swamped @ work and have not had a chance to send my usual
reminder e-mail.
Thank You Professor.

See you ALL next week Thursday!

Casey

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Fri May  9 09:49:13 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 09:49:13 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Joint Meeting :- GR-LUG and GR-JUG
In-Reply-To: <1210301965.20058.31.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <f9688a930805080856o45925638l44c9dbf45be3f88a@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805080904s6afcad1dq319561700c0ef5d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210301965.20058.31.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <1210340953.8968.2.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> > > I didn't  realize there was a GRJUG, so you at least got one new
> > > recruit (me) out of this proposal.
> > As for discussion topics, I would suggest starting with a presentation
> > on where Java and Linux intersect, and all of the software Sun has
> > been open sourcing lately. You could also present on the many Java
> > programs for Linux: Eclipse, Netbeans, Tomcat, and Glassfish co0me
> > immediately to mind.
> I just went through setting up an Apache Tomcat v6.0.16 application
> server, using Sun Java6 update 5. Just to use a report server called
> "i-Net Crystal Clear Plus Report Server"
> I also had to figure out why the MySQL Connector J v5.0.16 was screwing
> things up. I also had to figure out why _*all*_ the "jars" in a "lib"
> directory would not properly load. They were proper jar files (similar
> to tar files with manifests in them) but a "standalone listener" would

Yep,  I usually have to resort to the keep-sticking-the-jars-places till
it works.  I'm sure there is a more rational/systematic process,  but
I've just got no idea what it is;  and the Tomcat docs aren't helpful on
that score.


From greg at gregfolkert.net  Fri May  9 10:00:40 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 10:00:40 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Joint Meeting :- GR-LUG and GR-JUG
In-Reply-To: <1210340953.8968.2.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <f9688a930805080856o45925638l44c9dbf45be3f88a@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805080904s6afcad1dq319561700c0ef5d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210301965.20058.31.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<1210340953.8968.2.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <1210341640.3214.8.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 09:49 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > > > I didn't  realize there was a GRJUG, so you at least got one new
> > > > recruit (me) out of this proposal.
> > > As for discussion topics, I would suggest starting with a presentation
> > > on where Java and Linux intersect, and all of the software Sun has
> > > been open sourcing lately. You could also present on the many Java
> > > programs for Linux: Eclipse, Netbeans, Tomcat, and Glassfish co0me
> > > immediately to mind.
> > I just went through setting up an Apache Tomcat v6.0.16 application
> > server, using Sun Java6 update 5. Just to use a report server called
> > "i-Net Crystal Clear Plus Report Server"
> > I also had to figure out why the MySQL Connector J v5.0.16 was screwing
> > things up. I also had to figure out why _*all*_ the "jars" in a "lib"
> > directory would not properly load. They were proper jar files (similar
> > to tar files with manifests in them) but a "standalone listener" would
> 
> Yep,  I usually have to resort to the keep-sticking-the-jars-places till
> it works.  I'm sure there is a more rational/systematic process,  but
> I've just got no idea what it is;  and the Tomcat docs aren't helpful on
> that score.

Some SAGELY advice from a couple of *REALLY* senior Java Engineers I
know, these guys are not only Java people, both of them are VERY GOOD in
more languages you can count on your hands... even if you had an extra
finger on each hand. IMO, these two guys are in the top 0.1% of Software
Engineers in the World, perhaps even 0.01%. But enough on that and how I
came to that conclusion for now.

Here are the rules as far as getting java (mostly any version from 1.2
on) to load all the jars:

     1. If you want any "jar" to be actively used and picked up by java,
        explicitly include it on the classpath
     2. If you have problems with any other jar files, please see rule
        #1

So now you know why I put the shell script in there for all to see.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080509/b7471604/attachment-0001.pgp 

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Fri May  9 11:01:29 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 11:01:29 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Dell Openmanage and linux
In-Reply-To: <7C0B82CA-0019-48CA-8237-E83A81798BA4@tankrip.com>
References: <7C0B82CA-0019-48CA-8237-E83A81798BA4@tankrip.com>
Message-ID: <1210345289.3214.24.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>

On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 10:00 -0400, Colin Vallance wrote:
> I've got a Dell Poweredge 750 that I'm going to be putting in to  
> production for personal use and I was wondering if anyone has  
> experience with using Open Manage in linux.  I've never installed it  
> myself so I don't really know where to begin.  I've used it on Windows  
> servers that came factory direct from Dell with it pre-installed so I  
> know it's a valuable tool.  Anyone gone through that setup before?

Does the Dell support IPMI? Does ?OpenManage follow the IPMI standards?
Does the Dell have a network port for a "LightsOut" kind of thing (yes,
HPs Lights Out is what i am referring to), if so... use it for "reset"
buttons and so on.

If the Dell does support IPMI there is a WHOLE HECK of a lot of stuff
out there that can do the job better and with *WAY* less resources.
(IMO)

Plus, you can just roll your own status stuff easily. Scripts...
Apache... cron...  I was doing things using lm_sensors, "NUT", iostat,
vmstat, *stat... and had a single text webpage I could monitor all day
and collect and see the health of my machines.

But that may be more than some are willing to do.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080509/f4a22a57/attachment.pgp 

From grlug at tankrip.com  Fri May  9 11:19:38 2008
From: grlug at tankrip.com (Colin Vallance)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 11:19:38 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Dell Openmanage and linux
In-Reply-To: <1210345289.3214.24.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <7C0B82CA-0019-48CA-8237-E83A81798BA4@tankrip.com>
	<1210345289.3214.24.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <D223C7AE-D7AA-43A9-BE87-7BAF04962469@tankrip.com>

Greg,

I think you hit the nail on the head for me, "more than some are  
willing to do".  My current prod server sitting out in a data center  
in CA has no remote monitoring at all.  I know if we notice that a  
drive has failed or something we can call in a support ticket.  This  
new box is going in to a coloc somewhere so I'm looking for a quick  
heads up hardware heath status without much effort.  IF there are  
other, open source, lighter weight options I'm more than willing to  
give them a shot.  What I don't want to do is cobble something  
inferior up that I'll spend any time at all maintaining.



On May 9, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Greg Folkert wrote:

> On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 10:00 -0400, Colin Vallance wrote:
>> I've got a Dell Poweredge 750 that I'm going to be putting in to
>> production for personal use and I was wondering if anyone has
>> experience with using Open Manage in linux.  I've never installed it
>> myself so I don't really know where to begin.  I've used it on  
>> Windows
>> servers that came factory direct from Dell with it pre-installed so I
>> know it's a valuable tool.  Anyone gone through that setup before?
>
> Does the Dell support IPMI? Does OpenManage follow the IPMI standards?
> Does the Dell have a network port for a "LightsOut" kind of thing  
> (yes,
> HPs Lights Out is what i am referring to), if so... use it for "reset"
> buttons and so on.
>
> If the Dell does support IPMI there is a WHOLE HECK of a lot of stuff
> out there that can do the job better and with *WAY* less resources.
> (IMO)
>
> Plus, you can just roll your own status stuff easily. Scripts...
> Apache... cron...  I was doing things using lm_sensors, "NUT", iostat,
> vmstat, *stat... and had a single text webpage I could monitor all day
> and collect and see the health of my machines.
>
> But that may be more than some are willing to do.
> -- 
> greg at gregfolkert.net
> PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
> Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
> Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
> Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


From greg at gregfolkert.net  Fri May  9 11:35:06 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 11:35:06 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Dell Openmanage and linux
In-Reply-To: <D223C7AE-D7AA-43A9-BE87-7BAF04962469@tankrip.com>
References: <7C0B82CA-0019-48CA-8237-E83A81798BA4@tankrip.com>
	<1210345289.3214.24.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<D223C7AE-D7AA-43A9-BE87-7BAF04962469@tankrip.com>
Message-ID: <1210347306.3214.30.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 11:19 -0400, Colin Vallance wrote:
> Greg,
> 
> I think you hit the nail on the head for me, "more than some are  
> willing to do".  My current prod server sitting out in a data center  
> in CA has no remote monitoring at all.  I know if we notice that a  
> drive has failed or something we can call in a support ticket.  This  
> new box is going in to a coloc somewhere so I'm looking for a quick  
> heads up hardware heath status without much effort.  IF there are  
> other, open source, lighter weight options I'm more than willing to  
> give them a shot.  What I don't want to do is cobble something  
> inferior up that I'll spend any time at all maintaining.

Once I setup the webpage... it just ran and ran and ran and ran

I just replicated it to each machine. Since I didn't want to setup a
webserver on each machine, I setup an automated scp to transfer the
generated page to the actual webserver and made sub-pages, things just
worked for ever without any problem.


> On May 9, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Greg Folkert wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 10:00 -0400, Colin Vallance wrote:
> >> I've got a Dell Poweredge 750 that I'm going to be putting in to
> >> production for personal use and I was wondering if anyone has
> >> experience with using Open Manage in linux.  I've never installed it
> >> myself so I don't really know where to begin.  I've used it on  
> >> Windows
> >> servers that came factory direct from Dell with it pre-installed so I
> >> know it's a valuable tool.  Anyone gone through that setup before?
> >
> > Does the Dell support IPMI? Does OpenManage follow the IPMI standards?
> > Does the Dell have a network port for a "LightsOut" kind of thing  
> > (yes,
> > HPs Lights Out is what i am referring to), if so... use it for "reset"
> > buttons and so on.
> >
> > If the Dell does support IPMI there is a WHOLE HECK of a lot of stuff
> > out there that can do the job better and with *WAY* less resources.
> > (IMO)
> >
> > Plus, you can just roll your own status stuff easily. Scripts...
> > Apache... cron...  I was doing things using lm_sensors, "NUT", iostat,
> > vmstat, *stat... and had a single text webpage I could monitor all day
> > and collect and see the health of my machines.
> >
> > But that may be more than some are willing to do.
> > -- 
> > greg at gregfolkert.net
> > PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
> > Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
> > Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
> > Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080509/7b1c200a/attachment.pgp 

From grlug at tankrip.com  Fri May  9 12:59:39 2008
From: grlug at tankrip.com (Colin Vallance)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 12:59:39 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Dell Openmanage and linux
In-Reply-To: <1210347306.3214.30.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <7C0B82CA-0019-48CA-8237-E83A81798BA4@tankrip.com>
	<1210345289.3214.24.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<D223C7AE-D7AA-43A9-BE87-7BAF04962469@tankrip.com>
	<1210347306.3214.30.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <F71CC59E-0BC0-43A0-A89B-DE6E22491DC6@tankrip.com>

Good ol' google...

It looks like IPMI 1.0 is supported on my server.  I'm probably going  
with Ubuntu rather than REHL or Centos which is what Dell officially  
supports I think.  I'm beginning to wander outside my known territory  
so advice would be welcome at this point.  Any chance you could screen  
shot your webpage so I can see an example of what you're talking about?


On May 9, 2008, at 11:35 AM, Greg Folkert wrote:

>
> On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 11:19 -0400, Colin Vallance wrote:
>> Greg,
>>
>> I think you hit the nail on the head for me, "more than some are
>> willing to do".  My current prod server sitting out in a data center
>> in CA has no remote monitoring at all.  I know if we notice that a
>> drive has failed or something we can call in a support ticket.  This
>> new box is going in to a coloc somewhere so I'm looking for a quick
>> heads up hardware heath status without much effort.  IF there are
>> other, open source, lighter weight options I'm more than willing to
>> give them a shot.  What I don't want to do is cobble something
>> inferior up that I'll spend any time at all maintaining.
>
> Once I setup the webpage... it just ran and ran and ran and ran
>
> I just replicated it to each machine. Since I didn't want to setup a
> webserver on each machine, I setup an automated scp to transfer the
> generated page to the actual webserver and made sub-pages, things just
> worked for ever without any problem.
>
>
>> On May 9, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Greg Folkert wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 10:00 -0400, Colin Vallance wrote:
>>>> I've got a Dell Poweredge 750 that I'm going to be putting in to
>>>> production for personal use and I was wondering if anyone has
>>>> experience with using Open Manage in linux.  I've never installed  
>>>> it
>>>> myself so I don't really know where to begin.  I've used it on
>>>> Windows
>>>> servers that came factory direct from Dell with it pre-installed  
>>>> so I
>>>> know it's a valuable tool.  Anyone gone through that setup before?
>>>
>>> Does the Dell support IPMI? Does OpenManage follow the IPMI  
>>> standards?
>>> Does the Dell have a network port for a "LightsOut" kind of thing
>>> (yes,
>>> HPs Lights Out is what i am referring to), if so... use it for  
>>> "reset"
>>> buttons and so on.
>>>
>>> If the Dell does support IPMI there is a WHOLE HECK of a lot of  
>>> stuff
>>> out there that can do the job better and with *WAY* less resources.
>>> (IMO)
>>>
>>> Plus, you can just roll your own status stuff easily. Scripts...
>>> Apache... cron...  I was doing things using lm_sensors, "NUT",  
>>> iostat,
>>> vmstat, *stat... and had a single text webpage I could monitor all  
>>> day
>>> and collect and see the health of my machines.
>>>
>>> But that may be more than some are willing to do.
>>> -- 
>>> greg at gregfolkert.net
>>> PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
>>> Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
>>> Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
>>> Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> grlug mailing list
>>> grlug at grlug.org
>>> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> grlug mailing list
>> grlug at grlug.org
>> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
> -- 
> greg at gregfolkert.net
> PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
> Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
> Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
> Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri May  9 13:12:11 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 13:12:11 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>

So I've got a brand-spankin-new laptop that I'd like to run Linux on.
Thing is, this is my first box with a 64-bit processor.  I don't yet
know if I want to run Ubuntu or Gentoo, but one problem remains: Do I
run 32-bit or 64-bit?

I expect to do two things with my laptop: Watch video files, browse
the Internet, and watch streaming video on the Internet.  *Maybe* some
gaming. (It's been something like six years since I've had a computer
deemed appropriate for video games...)

I know Flash on Linux tends to lag behind Flash on Windows, but does
64-bit Linux flash lag even further behind?  I also know there were
problems with getting a 64-bit Java browser plugin, but Java applets
on the Internet are rare, and even Java developers don't like to admit
they exist.

So if I were to install a 64-bit Linux variant, what issues am I going
to run into?

-- 
:wq

From topher at wcsg.org  Fri May  9 13:26:36 2008
From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 13:26:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.0.82.0805091323420.5921@localhost>

> So I've got a brand-spankin-new laptop that I'd like to run Linux on. 
> Thing is, this is my first box with a 64-bit processor.  I don't yet 
> know if I want to run Ubuntu or Gentoo, but one problem remains: Do I 
> run 32-bit or 64-bit?
>
> I expect to do two things with my laptop: Watch video files, browse the 
> Internet, and watch streaming video on the Internet.  *Maybe* some 
> gaming. (It's been something like six years since I've had a computer 
> deemed appropriate for video games...)
>
> I know Flash on Linux tends to lag behind Flash on Windows, but does 
> 64-bit Linux flash lag even further behind?  I also know there were 
> problems with getting a 64-bit Java browser plugin, but Java applets on 
> the Internet are rare, and even Java developers don't like to admit they 
> exist.
>
> So if I were to install a 64-bit Linux variant, what issues am I going 
> to run into?

A girl in my office runs 64bit ubuntu.  There is no 64bit flash, it just 
doesn't exist.  What she does is run 32bit firefox, which then works with 
the 32bit flash player.

Other than that, we haven't really run into any issues.  All the help she 
asked for I've given her as if she were running 32 bit and everything's 
worked, but it was just basic stuff like "how do I install...." etc.

Java's not worth it, regardless of what you're running /flamebait.

From grlugcasey at gmail.com  Fri May  9 13:37:11 2008
From: grlugcasey at gmail.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 13:37:11 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0ffba670805091037r70d22ee6pa9aac999179be0ee@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:12 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
> So I've got a brand-spankin-new laptop that I'd like to run Linux on.
> Thing is, this is my first box with a 64-bit processor.  I don't yet
> know if I want to run Ubuntu or Gentoo, but one problem remains: Do I
> run 32-bit or 64-bit?
>
> I expect to do two things with my laptop: Watch video files, browse
> the Internet, and watch streaming video on the Internet.  *Maybe* some
> gaming. (It's been something like six years since I've had a computer
> deemed appropriate for video games...)
>
> I know Flash on Linux tends to lag behind Flash on Windows, but does
> 64-bit Linux flash lag even further behind?  I also know there were
> problems with getting a 64-bit Java browser plugin, but Java applets
> on the Internet are rare, and even Java developers don't like to admit
> they exist.
>
> So if I were to install a 64-bit Linux variant, what issues am I going
> to run into?
>


Hey Mike,
How about a breakdown of the Hardware????
Casey

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Fri May  9 13:36:40 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 13:36:40 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.0.82.0805091323420.5921@localhost>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.0.82.0805091323420.5921@localhost>
Message-ID: <48248BA8.1020302@kkmfg.com>

Topher wrote:
>> So I've got a brand-spankin-new laptop that I'd like to run Linux on. 
>> Thing is, this is my first box with a 64-bit processor.  I don't yet 
>> know if I want to run Ubuntu or Gentoo, but one problem remains: Do I 
>> run 32-bit or 64-bit?
>>
>> I expect to do two things with my laptop: Watch video files, browse the 
>> Internet, and watch streaming video on the Internet.  *Maybe* some 
>> gaming. (It's been something like six years since I've had a computer 
>> deemed appropriate for video games...)
>>
>> I know Flash on Linux tends to lag behind Flash on Windows, but does 
>> 64-bit Linux flash lag even further behind?  I also know there were 
>> problems with getting a 64-bit Java browser plugin, but Java applets on 
>> the Internet are rare, and even Java developers don't like to admit they 
>> exist.
>>
>> So if I were to install a 64-bit Linux variant, what issues am I going 
>> to run into?
>>     
>
> A girl in my office runs 64bit ubuntu.  There is no 64bit flash, it just 
> doesn't exist.  What she does is run 32bit firefox, which then works with 
> the 32bit flash player.
>
> Other than that, we haven't really run into any issues.  All the help she 
> asked for I've given her as if she were running 32 bit and everything's 
> worked, but it was just basic stuff like "how do I install...." etc.
>
> Java's not worth it, regardless of what you're running /flamebait.
>   

Yeah, I have Arch Linux 64bit installed on my Core2Duo laptop. The flash 
thing is easy to fix, use a 32 bit plugin. In my case I'm running 64 bit 
Konquerer but with a plugin wrapper to allow the 32 bit flash plugin to 
work.

You'll almost certainly end up installing a bunch of 32 bit support 
libraries so that you can run various things that don't support 64 bit 
yet. However, most applications seem to work fine. As a bonus compiling 
is faster in 64 bit so you won't have to wait so long for your 
applications to be done compiling! ;-)


My nVidia 8700M works fine, the Realtek sound works fine, USB, firewire, 
and wifi work fine. My fingerprint reader doesn't have drivers I don't 
think. Ditto on the built in webcam but I don't really care so maybe one 
or the other is supported and I just don't know it. Haven't tried HDMI 
out in linux yet so I don't know about that.

From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri May  9 13:46:12 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 13:46:12 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <f0ffba670805091037r70d22ee6pa9aac999179be0ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0ffba670805091037r70d22ee6pa9aac999179be0ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805091046j47c98f4br44dc1e8353426c3e@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Casey DuBois <grlugcasey at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:12 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
>> So I've got a brand-spankin-new laptop that I'd like to run Linux on.
>> Thing is, this is my first box with a 64-bit processor.  I don't yet
>> know if I want to run Ubuntu or Gentoo, but one problem remains: Do I
>> run 32-bit or 64-bit?
>>
>> I expect to do two things with my laptop: Watch video files, browse
>> the Internet, and watch streaming video on the Internet.  *Maybe* some
>> gaming. (It's been something like six years since I've had a computer
>> deemed appropriate for video games...)
>>
>> I know Flash on Linux tends to lag behind Flash on Windows, but does
>> 64-bit Linux flash lag even further behind?  I also know there were
>> problems with getting a 64-bit Java browser plugin, but Java applets
>> on the Internet are rare, and even Java developers don't like to admit
>> they exist.
>>
>> So if I were to install a 64-bit Linux variant, what issues am I going
>> to run into?
>>
>
>
> Hey Mike,
> How about a breakdown of the Hardware????
> Casey

I'll post the relevant details when I get home.



-- 
:wq

From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri May  9 13:49:42 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 13:49:42 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805091046j47c98f4br44dc1e8353426c3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0ffba670805091037r70d22ee6pa9aac999179be0ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805091046j47c98f4br44dc1e8353426c3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805091049v4855532ameeef3ab8019ac21d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Casey DuBois <grlugcasey at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:12 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> So I've got a brand-spankin-new laptop that I'd like to run Linux on.
>>> Thing is, this is my first box with a 64-bit processor.  I don't yet
>>> know if I want to run Ubuntu or Gentoo, but one problem remains: Do I
>>> run 32-bit or 64-bit?
>>>
>>> I expect to do two things with my laptop: Watch video files, browse
>>> the Internet, and watch streaming video on the Internet.  *Maybe* some
>>> gaming. (It's been something like six years since I've had a computer
>>> deemed appropriate for video games...)
>>>
>>> I know Flash on Linux tends to lag behind Flash on Windows, but does
>>> 64-bit Linux flash lag even further behind?  I also know there were
>>> problems with getting a 64-bit Java browser plugin, but Java applets
>>> on the Internet are rare, and even Java developers don't like to admit
>>> they exist.
>>>
>>> So if I were to install a 64-bit Linux variant, what issues am I going
>>> to run into?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Hey Mike,
>> How about a breakdown of the Hardware????
>> Casey
>
> I'll post the relevant details when I get home.

In the mean time, here's the Newegg page for the laptop.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834115464


-- 
:wq

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Fri May  9 13:56:52 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 13:56:52 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> So I've got a brand-spankin-new laptop that I'd like to run Linux on.
> Thing is, this is my first box with a 64-bit processor.  I don't yet
> know if I want to run Ubuntu or Gentoo, but one problem remains: Do I
> run 32-bit or 64-bit?

32;  it is easier, less fuss, and 64-bit on a laptop is entirely
pointless.  64bit is not necessarily any faster and is even slower in
some circumstances.  Use 64bit if you have oodles of RAM and run have
processes that are enormous - both of which are unlikely on a laptop
unless you are editing HD video.



From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri May  9 14:02:00 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 14:02:00 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805091102l3c48e9b3m7582b8e862113a31@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:56 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
<adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>> So I've got a brand-spankin-new laptop that I'd like to run Linux on.
>> Thing is, this is my first box with a 64-bit processor.  I don't yet
>> know if I want to run Ubuntu or Gentoo, but one problem remains: Do I
>> run 32-bit or 64-bit?
>
> 32;  it is easier, less fuss, and 64-bit on a laptop is entirely
> pointless.  64bit is not necessarily any faster and is even slower in
> some circumstances.  Use 64bit if you have oodles of RAM and run have
> processes that are enormous - both of which are unlikely on a laptop
> unless you are editing HD video.

Any x86-64 processor should have Intel's Paged Address Extensions,
giving 32-bit operating systems access to up to (IIRC) 64GB of RAM.  I
know it's possible on Linux, at the very least. See the "64GB high
memory" option if you configure and compile your own kernel.

I like x86-64 primarily because of the 8 GPRs that the compiler can
optimize for, instead of 4 GPRs on IA32.  I've done enough performance
coding to recognize how useful it can be to have that many more places
to store values and pointers, and avoid needing to call out to cache.

-- 
:wq

From flanderb at gmail.com  Fri May  9 14:02:21 2008
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 14:02:21 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <e8898d550805091102t76956194l99db451e5ecebf79@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:56 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
<adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>> So I've got a brand-spankin-new laptop that I'd like to run Linux on.
>> Thing is, this is my first box with a 64-bit processor.  I don't yet
>> know if I want to run Ubuntu or Gentoo, but one problem remains: Do I
>> run 32-bit or 64-bit?
>
> 32;  it is easier, less fuss, and 64-bit on a laptop is entirely
> pointless.  64bit is not necessarily any faster and is even slower in
> some circumstances.  Use 64bit if you have oodles of RAM and run have
> processes that are enormous - both of which are unlikely on a laptop
> unless you are editing HD video.

I did the research a few years ago when I built up my desktop and came
to the same conclusion.  I am interested to hear about recent ideas on
64bit computing.  I've triple booted a few times with a 64bit distro
and didn't feel any difference, so I stayed with 32bit.

> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Fri May  9 14:27:12 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 14:27:12 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <e8898d550805091102t76956194l99db451e5ecebf79@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>	<1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<e8898d550805091102t76956194l99db451e5ecebf79@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48249780.7070601@kkmfg.com>


> I did the research a few years ago when I built up my desktop and came
> to the same conclusion.  I am interested to hear about recent ideas on
> 64bit computing.  I've triple booted a few times with a 64bit distro
> and didn't feel any difference, so I stayed with 32bit.
>
>   

Yes, I'm running 64bit Arch on my laptop mostly just because I can. It 
wasn't really because of any speed difference (though compiling does 
seem faster.) But I still believe that 64 bit is the future and we may 
as well embrace it. More registers, nearly unlimited virtual space, 64 
bit ops natively. Arch64 has almost the same # of packages in native 64 
bit as it does for 32 bit so you really don't miss much. Pretty much all 
of the hardware in my toshiba x205 laptop works perfectly well.

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Fri May  9 14:31:30 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 14:31:30 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805091102l3c48e9b3m7582b8e862113a31@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>	<1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<f5e00c450805091102l3c48e9b3m7582b8e862113a31@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48249882.7070609@kkmfg.com>

>
>
> Any x86-64 processor should have Intel's Paged Address Extensions,
> giving 32-bit operating systems access to up to (IIRC) 64GB of RAM.  I
> know it's possible on Linux, at the very least. See the "64GB high
> memory" option if you configure and compile your own kernel.
>
> I like x86-64 primarily because of the 8 GPRs that the compiler can
> optimize for, instead of 4 GPRs on IA32.  I've done enough performance
> coding to recognize how useful it can be to have that many more places
> to store values and pointers, and avoid needing to call out to cache.
>
>   

That's true. PAE has been available on a lot of intel processors for 
some time now. But, quite frankly, it sucks. The processor can't 
physically access all of that memory in one shot so you end with a lot 
of wrangling in page tables. It slows down the system performance. If 
you are going to slow down the performance anyway then you may as well 
go to 64 bit where sometimes it might actually be faster instead of slower.

From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri May  9 14:43:04 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 14:43:04 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <48249882.7070609@kkmfg.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<f5e00c450805091102l3c48e9b3m7582b8e862113a31@mail.gmail.com>
	<48249882.7070609@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805091143j437dcc5aqe93c3ce1e81b1c0@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Any x86-64 processor should have Intel's Paged Address Extensions,
>> giving 32-bit operating systems access to up to (IIRC) 64GB of RAM.  I
>> know it's possible on Linux, at the very least. See the "64GB high
>> memory" option if you configure and compile your own kernel.
>>
>> I like x86-64 primarily because of the 8 GPRs that the compiler can
>> optimize for, instead of 4 GPRs on IA32.  I've done enough performance
>> coding to recognize how useful it can be to have that many more places
>> to store values and pointers, and avoid needing to call out to cache.
>>
>>
>
> That's true. PAE has been available on a lot of intel processors for
> some time now. But, quite frankly, it sucks. The processor can't
> physically access all of that memory in one shot so you end with a lot
> of wrangling in page tables. It slows down the system performance. If
> you are going to slow down the performance anyway then you may as well
> go to 64 bit where sometimes it might actually be faster instead of slower.

Hey, at least PAE (paging to RAM) was faster than virtual memory
(paging to disk). :-)

-- 
:wq

From jtr at jrichards.org  Fri May  9 14:58:11 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 14:58:11 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AT&T's U-Verse is here in GR
Message-ID: <20080509185811.GA28993@jrichards.org>

I came home early today and discovered paper spam in my mailbox from
AT&T touting their U-Verse television & internet service.  The
television prices seem absurdly high ($59/mo for "up to 200" channels,
$79/mo for "up to 260" channels, and $99/mo for "up to" 320 channels).
The highest internet speed is $55/mo for "up to" 10Mbps downstream (per
AT&T's website, upload speed is "up to" 1.5Mbps.  That alone may their
internet service more valuable than Comcast's.

Have any of you heard from another first hand (relatives and/or friends
in other cities wherein U-Verse has been available) how well the
service is in reality?
-- 
john-thomas
------
The true civilization is where every man gives to every other every right
that he claims for himself.
Robert Green Ingersoll, lawyer and orator (1833-1899)

From brousch at gmail.com  Fri May  9 15:13:09 2008
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:13:09 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AT&T's U-Verse is here in GR
In-Reply-To: <20080509185811.GA28993@jrichards.org>
References: <20080509185811.GA28993@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <d92a2d930805091213y4998a82embae55f177b1ec656@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org>
wrote:

> Have any of you heard from another first hand (relatives and/or friends
> in other cities wherein U-Verse has been available) how well the
> service is in reality?


My friend in Ann Arbor says he is very happy with the service.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080509/2dd7553f/attachment.htm 

From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri May  9 15:16:18 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:16:18 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AT&T's U-Verse is here in GR
In-Reply-To: <d92a2d930805091213y4998a82embae55f177b1ec656@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080509185811.GA28993@jrichards.org>
	<d92a2d930805091213y4998a82embae55f177b1ec656@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805091216k764d320cu91c94af119c5a203@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Ben Rousch <brousch at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Have any of you heard from another first hand (relatives and/or friends
>> in other cities wherein U-Verse has been available) how well the
>> service is in reality?
>
>
> My friend in Ann Arbor says he is very happy with the service.

Not available at my residence yet. :-/

-- 
:wq

From jtr at jrichards.org  Fri May  9 15:23:40 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:23:40 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AT&T's U-Verse is here in GR
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805091216k764d320cu91c94af119c5a203@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080509185811.GA28993@jrichards.org>
	<d92a2d930805091213y4998a82embae55f177b1ec656@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805091216k764d320cu91c94af119c5a203@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080509192340.GB28993@jrichards.org>

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 03:16:18PM -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Ben Rousch <brousch at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Have any of you heard from another first hand (relatives and/or friends
> >> in other cities wherein U-Verse has been available) how well the
> >> service is in reality?
> >
> >
> > My friend in Ann Arbor says he is very happy with the service.
> 
> Not available at my residence yet. :-/

Do you live in GR?  If so, in which area do you live?  I live in the
northeast (Plainfield & Knapp) area and have an AT&T U-Verse box (two,
actually) installed two houses away from me).  It has been there about
a year.  I guess I thought this would be a city-wide rollout.
-- 
john-thomas
------
There is no kind of dishonesty into which otherwise good people more easily
and frequently fall than that of defrauding the government.
Benjamin Franklin, statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)

From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri May  9 15:42:13 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:42:13 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AT&T's U-Verse is here in GR
In-Reply-To: <20080509192340.GB28993@jrichards.org>
References: <20080509185811.GA28993@jrichards.org>
	<d92a2d930805091213y4998a82embae55f177b1ec656@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805091216k764d320cu91c94af119c5a203@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080509192340.GB28993@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805091242w5e5c7320geb79959c49456c06@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 3:23 PM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org> wrote:
> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 03:16:18PM -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
>> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Ben Rousch <brousch at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Have any of you heard from another first hand (relatives and/or friends
>> >> in other cities wherein U-Verse has been available) how well the
>> >> service is in reality?
>> >
>> >
>> > My friend in Ann Arbor says he is very happy with the service.
>>
>> Not available at my residence yet. :-/
>
> Do you live in GR?  If so, in which area do you live?  I live in the
> northeast (Plainfield & Knapp) area and have an AT&T U-Verse box (two,
> actually) installed two houses away from me).  It has been there about
> a year.  I guess I thought this would be a city-wide rollout.

I live in Grandville.  I guess they literally meant "Grand Rapids",
not "Grand Rapids area", as virtually every other regional business
endeavor means.

-- 
:wq

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Fri May  9 15:46:46 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:46:46 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805091143j437dcc5aqe93c3ce1e81b1c0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<f5e00c450805091102l3c48e9b3m7582b8e862113a31@mail.gmail.com>
	<48249882.7070609@kkmfg.com>
	<f5e00c450805091143j437dcc5aqe93c3ce1e81b1c0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805091246l5c4a3f56n75e1d30f0820f936@mail.gmail.com>

Actually I know what is different between 32bit and 64bit

64bit is better than 32bit

Reason:

RAM SIZE LIMIT
32bit = 3.25GB / 4GB
64bit = 16EB (exabyte)
and, 128bit = 274,877,906,944 YB (yottabyte)

Apps:
company are developing 32bit software into 64bit
otherwise, we're still using 32bit software on 64bit operation system
but there is some 64bit software too


P.S. I'm wondering why people love send message under people's message?

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 2:43 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Any x86-64 processor should have Intel's Paged Address Extensions,
>>> giving 32-bit operating systems access to up to (IIRC) 64GB of RAM.  I
>>> know it's possible on Linux, at the very least. See the "64GB high
>>> memory" option if you configure and compile your own kernel.
>>>
>>> I like x86-64 primarily because of the 8 GPRs that the compiler can
>>> optimize for, instead of 4 GPRs on IA32.  I've done enough performance
>>> coding to recognize how useful it can be to have that many more places
>>> to store values and pointers, and avoid needing to call out to cache.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That's true. PAE has been available on a lot of intel processors for
>> some time now. But, quite frankly, it sucks. The processor can't
>> physically access all of that memory in one shot so you end with a lot
>> of wrangling in page tables. It slows down the system performance. If
>> you are going to slow down the performance anyway then you may as well
>> go to 64 bit where sometimes it might actually be faster instead of slower.
>
> Hey, at least PAE (paging to RAM) was faster than virtual memory
> (paging to disk). :-)
>
> --
> :wq
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha

From brousch at gmail.com  Fri May  9 15:47:08 2008
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:47:08 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AT&T's U-Verse is here in GR
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805091242w5e5c7320geb79959c49456c06@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080509185811.GA28993@jrichards.org>
	<d92a2d930805091213y4998a82embae55f177b1ec656@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805091216k764d320cu91c94af119c5a203@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080509192340.GB28993@jrichards.org>
	<f5e00c450805091242w5e5c7320geb79959c49456c06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d92a2d930805091247v120ccc4do21ad8c935d34daa@mail.gmail.com>

>
> > Do you live in GR?  If so, in which area do you live?  I live in the
> > northeast (Plainfield & Knapp) area and have an AT&T U-Verse box (two,
> > actually) installed two houses away from me).  It has been there about
> > a year.  I guess I thought this would be a city-wide rollout.
>
> I live in Grandville.  I guess they literally meant "Grand Rapids",
> not "Grand Rapids area", as virtually every other regional business
> endeavor means.
>

I am in Wyoming and it is also not available yet. ATT installed giant new
boxes on Byron Center Ave near my house, so maybe it is coming soon.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080509/62723309/attachment.htm 

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Fri May  9 15:51:53 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:51:53 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AT&T's U-Verse is here in GR
In-Reply-To: <d92a2d930805091247v120ccc4do21ad8c935d34daa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080509185811.GA28993@jrichards.org>
	<d92a2d930805091213y4998a82embae55f177b1ec656@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805091216k764d320cu91c94af119c5a203@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080509192340.GB28993@jrichards.org>
	<f5e00c450805091242w5e5c7320geb79959c49456c06@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805091247v120ccc4do21ad8c935d34daa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805091251u13953bf8m8b09d5c617017feb@mail.gmail.com>

AT&T is available in my area, I live one avenue street (east)  away
from Northview High School

but I was thinking about switch ISP thne I can get sexier internet speed :)

I'm bittorrent downloader & medium gamer

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Ben Rousch <brousch at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Do you live in GR?  If so, in which area do you live?  I live in the
>> > northeast (Plainfield & Knapp) area and have an AT&T U-Verse box (two,
>> > actually) installed two houses away from me).  It has been there about
>> > a year.  I guess I thought this would be a city-wide rollout.
>>
>> I live in Grandville.  I guess they literally meant "Grand Rapids",
>> not "Grand Rapids area", as virtually every other regional business
>> endeavor means.
>
> I am in Wyoming and it is also not available yet. ATT installed giant new
> boxes on Byron Center Ave near my house, so maybe it is coming soon.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha

From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri May  9 16:05:05 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:05:05 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0805091246l5c4a3f56n75e1d30f0820f936@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<f5e00c450805091102l3c48e9b3m7582b8e862113a31@mail.gmail.com>
	<48249882.7070609@kkmfg.com>
	<f5e00c450805091143j437dcc5aqe93c3ce1e81b1c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805091246l5c4a3f56n75e1d30f0820f936@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805091305h43168e1ax2a28cfd010defb63@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Professor Inuyasha
<profinuyasha at gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually I know what is different between 32bit and 64bit
>
> 64bit is better than 32bit
>
> Reason:
>
> RAM SIZE LIMIT
> 32bit = 3.25GB / 4GB
> 64bit = 16EB (exabyte)
> and, 128bit = 274,877,906,944 YB (yottabyte)

x86-64 performs 64-bit *calculations* natively.  There are only 40
memory address lines (or there were in Hammer), giving a
directly-addressable range of 1TB.  This was touted as a great thing,
because it meant you could memmap your entire hard disk.  Of course,
now you can get a 1TB hard disk for $200 on Newegg.
-- 
:wq

From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri May  9 16:08:54 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:08:54 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805091046j47c98f4br44dc1e8353426c3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0ffba670805091037r70d22ee6pa9aac999179be0ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805091046j47c98f4br44dc1e8353426c3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805091308g2ae78d54ua4239e71829ba8fd@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Casey DuBois <grlugcasey at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:12 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> So I've got a brand-spankin-new laptop that I'd like to run Linux on.
>>> Thing is, this is my first box with a 64-bit processor.  I don't yet
>>> know if I want to run Ubuntu or Gentoo, but one problem remains: Do I
>>> run 32-bit or 64-bit?
>>>
>>> I expect to do two things with my laptop: Watch video files, browse
>>> the Internet, and watch streaming video on the Internet.  *Maybe* some
>>> gaming. (It's been something like six years since I've had a computer
>>> deemed appropriate for video games...)
>>>
>>> I know Flash on Linux tends to lag behind Flash on Windows, but does
>>> 64-bit Linux flash lag even further behind?  I also know there were
>>> problems with getting a 64-bit Java browser plugin, but Java applets
>>> on the Internet are rare, and even Java developers don't like to admit
>>> they exist.
>>>
>>> So if I were to install a 64-bit Linux variant, what issues am I going
>>> to run into?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Hey Mike,
>> How about a breakdown of the Hardware????
>> Casey

Here it is.  I happen to know that the AR242 is actually an AR5007;
Ubuntu Hardy Heron misdetects it.  That's going to make Ubuntu a
little more work than normal to install.

ubuntu at ubuntu:~$ lspci
00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation Mobile PM965/GM965/GL960 Memory
Controller Hub (rev 03)
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile
GM965/GL960 Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03)
00:02.1 Display controller: Intel Corporation Mobile GM965/GL960
Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03)
00:1a.0 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB
UHCI Controller #4 (rev 03)
00:1a.1 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB
UHCI Controller #5 (rev 03)
00:1a.7 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB2
EHCI Controller #2 (rev 03)
00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) HD Audio
Controller (rev 03)
00:1c.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) PCI Express
Port 1 (rev 03)
00:1c.1 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) PCI Express
Port 2 (rev 03)
00:1c.2 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) PCI Express
Port 3 (rev 03)
00:1d.0 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB
UHCI Controller #1 (rev 03)
00:1d.1 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB
UHCI Controller #2 (rev 03)
00:1d.2 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB
UHCI Controller #3 (rev 03)
00:1d.7 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB2
EHCI Controller #1 (rev 03)
00:1e.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801 Mobile PCI Bridge (rev f3)
00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801HEM (ICH8M) LPC Interface
Controller (rev 03)
00:1f.1 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801HBM/HEM (ICH8M/ICH8M-E)
IDE Controller (rev 03)
00:1f.2 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801HBM/HEM (ICH8M/ICH8M-E)
SATA IDE Controller (rev 03)
00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 82801H (ICH8 Family) SMBus Controller (rev 03)
02:00.0 Ethernet controller: Marvell Technology Group Ltd. 88E8039
PCI-E Fast Ethernet Controller (rev 15)
04:00.0 Ethernet controller: Atheros Communications Inc. AR242x
802.11abg Wireless PCI Express Adapter (rev 01)
ubuntu at ubuntu:~$ cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor       : 0
vendor_id       : GenuineIntel
cpu family      : 6
model           : 15
model name      : Intel(R) Pentium(R) Dual  CPU  T2370  @ 1.73GHz
stepping        : 13
cpu MHz         : 800.000
cache size      : 1024 KB
physical id     : 0
siblings        : 2
core id         : 0
cpu cores       : 2
fdiv_bug        : no
hlt_bug         : no
f00f_bug        : no
coma_bug        : no
fpu             : yes
fpu_exception   : yes
cpuid level	: 10
wp		: yes
flags		: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov
pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe nx lm
constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts pni monitor ds_cpl est tm2 ssse3
cx16 xtpr lahf_lm
bogomips	: 3461.74
clflush size	: 64

processor	: 1
vendor_id	: GenuineIntel
cpu family	: 6
model		: 15
model name	: Intel(R) Pentium(R) Dual  CPU  T2370  @ 1.73GHz
stepping	: 13
cpu MHz		: 800.000
cache size	: 1024 KB
physical id	: 0
siblings	: 2
core id		: 1
cpu cores	: 2
fdiv_bug	: no
hlt_bug		: no
f00f_bug	: no
coma_bug	: no
fpu		: yes
fpu_exception	: yes
cpuid level	: 10
wp		: yes
flags		: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov
pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe nx lm
constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts pni monitor ds_cpl est tm2 ssse3
cx16 xtpr lahf_lm
bogomips	: 3458.06
clflush size	: 64

ubuntu at ubuntu:~$ free -m
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:          2018        837       1180          0         87        464
-/+ buffers/cache:        284       1733
Swap:            0          0          0
ubuntu at ubuntu:~$ lsusb
Bus 007 Device 001: ID 0000:0000
Bus 006 Device 002: ID 04f2:b026 Chicony Electronics Co., Ltd
Bus 006 Device 001: ID 0000:0000
Bus 005 Device 001: ID 0000:0000
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 0000:0000
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 0000:0000
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 0000:0000
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 0000:0000
ubuntu at ubuntu:~$


-- 
:wq

From jtr at jrichards.org  Fri May  9 16:40:31 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:40:31 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0805091246l5c4a3f56n75e1d30f0820f936@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<f5e00c450805091102l3c48e9b3m7582b8e862113a31@mail.gmail.com>
	<48249882.7070609@kkmfg.com>
	<f5e00c450805091143j437dcc5aqe93c3ce1e81b1c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805091246l5c4a3f56n75e1d30f0820f936@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080509204031.GA31995@jrichards.org>

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 03:46:46PM -0400, Professor Inuyasha wrote:
[snip]
> P.S. I'm wondering why people love send message under people's message?

This is a good question.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

For a fuller explanation, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting#Top-posting

[snip]
-- 
john-thomas
------
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions,
that I wish it always to be kept alive.
Thomas Jefferson, third US president, architect and author (1743-1826)

From ssurdock at engineered-net.com  Fri May  9 16:50:48 2008
From: ssurdock at engineered-net.com (Steven Surdock)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:50:48 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <20080509204031.GA31995@jrichards.org>
References: DEFANGED[11]:<f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com><1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net><f5e00c450805091102l3c48e9b3m7582b8e862113a31@mail.gmail.com><48249882.7070609@kkmfg.com><f5e00c450805091143j437dcc5aqe93c3ce1e81b1c0@mail.gma
	" "
	il.com><aecf8abe0805091246l5c4a3f56n75e1d30f0820f936@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080509204031.GA31995@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <869F1268DF73444BA076E4FA523AFD613DF7A8@fs01.internal.engineered-net.com>

True if it's the first e-mail of the thread you are reading, but does
anybody _really_ read the last email (of a thread) first?  I wonder how
long it will be until folks with mobile devices (that limit initial
message size) will drive more top-posting.

Personally I vote for top-posting.  I get the most recent information
first and if I don't understand the context I can scroll down until I
do.  Much more efficient than starting with information I may already
know and wading through volumes of something I already read to find what
I really want to know:-)

-Steve S.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On
Behalf Of
> john-thomas richards
> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 4:41 PM
> To: grlug at grlug.org
> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
> 
> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 03:46:46PM -0400, Professor Inuyasha wrote:
> [snip]
> > P.S. I'm wondering why people love send message under people's
message?
> 
> This is a good question.
> 
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
> 
> For a fuller explanation, read this:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting#Top-posting
> 
> [snip]
> --
> john-thomas
> ------
> The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions,
> that I wish it always to be kept alive.
> Thomas Jefferson, third US president, architect and author (1743-1826)
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Fri May  9 17:06:22 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 17:06:22 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <869F1268DF73444BA076E4FA523AFD613DF7A8@fs01.internal.engineered-net.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<f5e00c450805091102l3c48e9b3m7582b8e862113a31@mail.gmail.com>
	<48249882.7070609@kkmfg.com>
	<aecf8abe0805091246l5c4a3f56n75e1d30f0820f936@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080509204031.GA31995@jrichards.org>
	<869F1268DF73444BA076E4FA523AFD613DF7A8@fs01.internal.engineered-net.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805091406q136419feu2b5b5e2deb2c680b@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Steven Surdock
<ssurdock at engineered-net.com> wrote:
> True if it's the first e-mail of the thread you are reading, but does
> anybody _really_ read the last email (of a thread) first?  I wonder how
> long it will be until folks with mobile devices (that limit initial
> message size) will drive more top-posting.

Huh?  Mobile devices these days have > 64Mb ram, sometimes as much as
256Mb - 1Gb.  Any such device that limits individual message size is
broken.

> Personally I vote for top-posting.

You lose.

--tim

From jd.walsh at comcast.net  Fri May  9 17:09:35 2008
From: jd.walsh at comcast.net (JD Walsh III)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 17:09:35 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <48248BA8.1020302@kkmfg.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.0.82.0805091323420.5921@localhost>
	<48248BA8.1020302@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <4824BD8F.2090001@comcast.net>

Topher wrote:
> Micheal Mol wrote:
>> So I've got a brand-spankin-new laptop that I'd like to run Linux on. 
>> Thing is, this is my first box with a 64-bit processor.  I don't yet 
>> know if I want to run Ubuntu or Gentoo, but one problem remains: Do I 
>> run 32-bit or 64-bit?
>>
>> I expect to do two things with my laptop: Watch video files, browse the 
>> Internet, and watch streaming video on the Internet.  *Maybe* some 
>> gaming. (It's been something like six years since I've had a computer 
>> deemed appropriate for video games...)
>>
>> I know Flash on Linux tends to lag behind Flash on Windows, but does 
>> 64-bit Linux flash lag even further behind?  I also know there were 
>> problems with getting a 64-bit Java browser plugin, but Java applets on 
>> the Internet are rare, and even Java developers don't like to admit they 
>> exist.
>>
>> So if I were to install a 64-bit Linux variant, what issues am I going 
>> to run into?
>
> A girl in my office runs 64bit ubuntu.  There is no 64bit flash, it just 
> doesn't exist.  What she does is run 32bit firefox, which then works with 
> the 32bit flash player.
>
> Other than that, we haven't really run into any issues.  All the help she 
> asked for I've given her as if she were running 32 bit and everything's 
> worked, but it was just basic stuff like "how do I install...." etc.
>
> Java's not worth it, regardless of what you're running /flamebait.
Actually, I'm running 64-bit Kubuntu 8.04 and using flash for Firefox (they're including 3.0b5). Printing web pages has been an issue, but flash works transparently. In prior versions (e.g., 7.10) I had to run a 32-bit brower, but apparently this is no longer necessary.

Haven't had any trouble with Java...yet.

--jd


From greg at gregfolkert.net  Fri May  9 17:15:09 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 17:15:09 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AT&T's U-Verse is here in GR
In-Reply-To: <20080509185811.GA28993@jrichards.org>
References: <20080509185811.GA28993@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <1210367709.5553.6.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 14:58 -0400, john-thomas richards wrote:
> I came home early today and discovered paper spam in my mailbox from
> AT&T touting their U-Verse television & internet service.  The
> television prices seem absurdly high ($59/mo for "up to 200" channels,
> $79/mo for "up to 260" channels, and $99/mo for "up to" 320 channels).
> The highest internet speed is $55/mo for "up to" 10Mbps downstream (per
> AT&T's website, upload speed is "up to" 1.5Mbps.  That alone may their
> internet service more valuable than Comcast's.
> 
> Have any of you heard from another first hand (relatives and/or friends
> in other cities wherein U-Verse has been available) how well the
> service is in reality?

I have experienced it first hand.

I just got it setup for a friend in Grandville.

25,258Kbps Download, 2,205 Kbps upload.

He has his Phone, TV, Internet, Wireless (Wifi not Cellular) and stuff
all working through a box about the size of a HP Citrix client box.

I looked at it with a evil eye and it stared right back at me and
surprised me.

The Firewall setup is VERY nice (and EASY). Its a router as well... I
was able to provide mail services to his Linux machine, most all rules
you could want are predefined, including ssh, IMAP/POP (all variants)
SMTP, Web, NNTP...

I am super impressed with it. I want it. I am 18,000 ft or more from CO
which means it'll never get here.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080509/b450884e/attachment.pgp 

From abrummitt at gmail.com  Fri May  9 17:17:24 2008
From: abrummitt at gmail.com (Aaron M. Brummitt)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 17:17:24 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AT&T's U-Verse is here in GR
In-Reply-To: <d92a2d930805091247v120ccc4do21ad8c935d34daa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080509185811.GA28993@jrichards.org>
	<d92a2d930805091213y4998a82embae55f177b1ec656@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805091216k764d320cu91c94af119c5a203@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080509192340.GB28993@jrichards.org>
	<f5e00c450805091242w5e5c7320geb79959c49456c06@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805091247v120ccc4do21ad8c935d34daa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1fa63b160805091417s7b9da284pcde9f02a9b2a784c@mail.gmail.com>

>> > Do you live in GR?  If so, in which area do you live?  I live in the
>> > northeast (Plainfield & Knapp) area and have an AT&T U-Verse box (two,
>> > actually) installed two houses away from me).  It has been there about
>> > a year.  I guess I thought this would be a city-wide rollout.
>>
>> I live in Grandville.  I guess they literally meant "Grand Rapids",
>> not "Grand Rapids area", as virtually every other regional business
>> endeavor means.
>
> I am in Wyoming and it is also not available yet. ATT installed giant new
> boxes on Byron Center Ave near my house, so maybe it is coming soon.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

U-Verse is also available in Holland:

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/news_community/x883026069

Unfortunately not yet in my neighborhood.

/AMB

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Fri May  9 17:22:38 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 17:22:38 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210368158.5553.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 13:12 -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
> So I've got a brand-spankin-new laptop that I'd like to run Linux on.
> Thing is, this is my first box with a 64-bit processor.  I don't yet
> know if I want to run Ubuntu or Gentoo, but one problem remains: Do I
> run 32-bit or 64-bit?
> 
> I expect to do two things with my laptop: Watch video files, browse
> the Internet, and watch streaming video on the Internet.  *Maybe* some
> gaming. (It's been something like six years since I've had a computer
> deemed appropriate for video games...)
> 
> I know Flash on Linux tends to lag behind Flash on Windows, but does
> 64-bit Linux flash lag even further behind?  I also know there were
> problems with getting a 64-bit Java browser plugin, but Java applets
> on the Internet are rare, and even Java developers don't like to admit
> they exist.
> 
> So if I were to install a 64-bit Linux variant, what issues am I going
> to run into?

I was in the same position last august/sept put 64-bit Debian Sid on it.

Here is my current uname string:

2.6.24-1-686-bigmem #1 SMP Sat Apr 19 01:23:53 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux

Its just not worth the extra time or effort to get Flash, Java (no 64bit
intel Java Plugin exists yet) and other things to run.

The only real downside is the greater than 4GB memory addressing in a
32-bit kernel. Larger pages... but at the rate that software is using
memory, its a non-issue now a day.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080509/db6201d6/attachment-0001.pgp 

From tehpopa at gmail.com  Fri May  9 19:46:43 2008
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 19:46:43 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AT&T's U-Verse is here in GR
In-Reply-To: <1fa63b160805091417s7b9da284pcde9f02a9b2a784c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080509185811.GA28993@jrichards.org>
	<d92a2d930805091213y4998a82embae55f177b1ec656@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805091216k764d320cu91c94af119c5a203@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080509192340.GB28993@jrichards.org>
	<f5e00c450805091242w5e5c7320geb79959c49456c06@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805091247v120ccc4do21ad8c935d34daa@mail.gmail.com>
	<1fa63b160805091417s7b9da284pcde9f02a9b2a784c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca1715f80805091646y581a7443kd2d8d5d373938c2d@mail.gmail.com>

ATT hates me. I'm out at Walker and 3 mile and I've been told by no less
than 3 techs installing in my building(of 6 apartments) that it's available.
However, ATT's system disagrees and I can't have it.

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Aaron M. Brummitt <abrummitt at gmail.com>
wrote:

> >> > Do you live in GR?  If so, in which area do you live?  I live in the
> >> > northeast (Plainfield & Knapp) area and have an AT&T U-Verse box (two,
> >> > actually) installed two houses away from me).  It has been there about
> >> > a year.  I guess I thought this would be a city-wide rollout.
> >>
> >> I live in Grandville.  I guess they literally meant "Grand Rapids",
> >> not "Grand Rapids area", as virtually every other regional business
> >> endeavor means.
> >
> > I am in Wyoming and it is also not available yet. ATT installed giant new
> > boxes on Byron Center Ave near my house, so maybe it is coming soon.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
> U-Verse is also available in Holland:
>
> http://www.hollandsentinel.com/news_community/x883026069
>
> Unfortunately not yet in my neighborhood.
>
> /AMB
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080509/259ed8c1/attachment.htm 

From jtr at jrichards.org  Fri May  9 21:15:27 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 21:15:27 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <869F1268DF73444BA076E4FA523AFD613DF7A8@fs01.internal.engineered-net.com>
References: <20080509204031.GA31995@jrichards.org>
	<869F1268DF73444BA076E4FA523AFD613DF7A8@fs01.internal.engineered-net.com>
Message-ID: <20080510011527.GA1454@jrichards.org>

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 04:50:48PM -0400, Steven Surdock wrote:
> True if it's the first e-mail of the thread you are reading, but does
> anybody _really_ read the last email (of a thread) first?  I wonder how
> long it will be until folks with mobile devices (that limit initial
> message size) will drive more top-posting.

It is true *regardless* of where you start reading a thread.  You say
something.  I respond.  You respond again.  I respond again.  I do not
respond again - ever - before you first say something.  I am not
prescient, and neither are you.  Bottom-posting preserves natural
conversation flow.  I (and I suspect most on this list) have far more
important things to do than wait for a reply to something I or someone
else posted.  When I receive an email in a thread I wish to follow,
bottom-posting facilitates discussion far better than does top-posting.
Top-posting reflects more of an instant-message discussion wherein you
remember what was posted because it was posted quite recently.  I may
come back to a thread a day or two later.  You also seem to be
forgetting that a conversation on a public mailing list is never
between just the two people responding to each other.  *You* may
remember what was just posted but the guy who got off work late at
19:30 is just joining the conversation and is lost.

If your mobile device limits message size, it may be time for an
upgrade.

> Personally I vote for top-posting.  I get the most recent information
> first and if I don't understand the context I can scroll down until I
> do.  Much more efficient than starting with information I may already
> know and wading through volumes of something I already read to find what
> I really want to know:-)

Feel free to top-post, but know that some may not wish to take the time
to page down through an email to remember / discover what you
responding to.  Remember that not everyone remembers everything that is
posted.

Here is another reason to bottom-post: posterity.  When I search Google
or Usenet for a solution to a problem, I am far more likely to find
said solution on a well-organized list that follows natural
conversation flow.  On the few lists that have a large number of
top-posters it is often too difficult to find the information I need.
For example, when a person who is not involved reads this post, they
will be wondering what, exactly, is true.  You said something is true
but what is "true" is several paragraphs below because you did not
bottom-post.  Even if I top-posted in kind, one would be forced to
page down through the email to find out what is true.  That is a
hindrance to communication.

[the following left unsnipped as part of the above illustration;
apologies to those on limited mobile devices]

> -Steve S.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On
> Behalf Of
> > john-thomas richards
> > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 4:41 PM
> > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
> > 
> > On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 03:46:46PM -0400, Professor Inuyasha wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > P.S. I'm wondering why people love send message under people's
> message?
> > 
> > This is a good question.
> > 
> > A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> > A: Top-posting.
> > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
> > 
> > For a fuller explanation, read this:
> > 
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting#Top-posting
> > 
> > [snip]
> > --
> > john-thomas

-- 
john-thomas
------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical.
Niels Bohr, physicist (1885-1962)

From mikemol at gmail.com  Sun May 11 04:50:28 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 04:50:28 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] WPA2-Enterprise, RADIUS and Linux
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805110150p21b956eah65dc615d17685b25@mail.gmail.com>

My wireless network is almost completely set-up.  Since my access
point can serve as AP to two SSIDs at the same time, with different
wireless and LAN settings for both, I've got it partitioned out.

On one hand, I've got a weak-security WEP network for guests and
family members with mobile devices that don't support WPA2.  On the
other hand, I've got a strong-security WPA2-Personal with frequent
group-key changes.  And since the AP support it, I've got the two
networks on mutually-exclusive subnets, with the AP/router providing
Internet service to both.

Since I can, I'd like to switch the stronger network to
WPA-Enterprise, and have it authenticate clients against my Linux
desktop's user accounts.  Which means I need to set up a RADIUS
server.

I haven't done that before...Any recommendations or caveats?

-- 
:wq

From david at pembrook.net  Sun May 11 07:45:27 2008
From: david at pembrook.net (David Pembrook)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 07:45:27 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805091406q136419feu2b5b5e2deb2c680b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>	<1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>	<f5e00c450805091102l3c48e9b3m7582b8e862113a31@mail.gmail.com>	<48249882.7070609@kkmfg.com>	<aecf8abe0805091246l5c4a3f56n75e1d30f0820f936@mail.gmail.com>	<20080509204031.GA31995@jrichards.org>	<869F1268DF73444BA076E4FA523AFD613DF7A8@fs01.internal.engineered-net.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805091406q136419feu2b5b5e2deb2c680b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4826DC57.6000601@pembrook.net>

Why do we have to start these things.. I still prefer top post but this 
is only trouble

Tim Schmidt wrote:
> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Steven Surdock
> <ssurdock at engineered-net.com> wrote:
>   
>> True if it's the first e-mail of the thread you are reading, but does
>> anybody _really_ read the last email (of a thread) first?  I wonder how
>> long it will be until folks with mobile devices (that limit initial
>> message size) will drive more top-posting.
>>     
>
> Huh?  Mobile devices these days have > 64Mb ram, sometimes as much as
> 256Mb - 1Gb.  Any such device that limits individual message size is
> broken.
>
>   
>> Personally I vote for top-posting.
>>     
>
> You lose.
>
> --tim
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>   


From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Sun May 11 08:11:43 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 08:11:43 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] WPA2-Enterprise, RADIUS and Linux
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805110150p21b956eah65dc615d17685b25@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805110150p21b956eah65dc615d17685b25@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210507903.5517.12.camel@aleph>

> Since I can, I'd like to switch the stronger network to
> WPA-Enterprise, and have it authenticate clients against my Linux
> desktop's user accounts.  Which means I need to set up a RADIUS
> server.
> I haven't done that before...Any recommendations or caveats?

It works very well

<http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com/node/97>


From timschmidt at gmail.com  Sun May 11 10:36:15 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 10:36:15 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] 64-bit Linux
In-Reply-To: <4826DC57.6000601@pembrook.net>
References: <f5e00c450805091012v48f5d998s21896ea22258d58@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210355812.8968.19.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<f5e00c450805091102l3c48e9b3m7582b8e862113a31@mail.gmail.com>
	<48249882.7070609@kkmfg.com>
	<aecf8abe0805091246l5c4a3f56n75e1d30f0820f936@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080509204031.GA31995@jrichards.org>
	<869F1268DF73444BA076E4FA523AFD613DF7A8@fs01.internal.engineered-net.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805091406q136419feu2b5b5e2deb2c680b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4826DC57.6000601@pembrook.net>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805110736r1b5dcb3ercf2f733e7b73ed16@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 7:45 AM, David Pembrook <david at pembrook.net> wrote:
> Why do we have to start these things.. I still prefer top post but this
>  is only trouble

Because, as a community, we have no mandatory education system to
facilitate passing on our social norms and values.  Thoroughly
self-motivated people can still obtain that information, but as we've
seen, quite a few people haven't.  So...  a question for the sociology
students out there...  how do societies - cultures - enforce their
social norms?  (and they _do_ enforce them)

Through ridicule and loss of respect.

It would be great if everyone got a decent FOSS community education,
but there will always be someone who hasn't.  Flamewars and occasional
flare-ups are simply our culture's way of catching the stragglers.

--tim

From tim at izzyig.com  Sun May 11 10:50:01 2008
From: tim at izzyig.com (Tim)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 10:50:01 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] WPA2-Enterprise, RADIUS and Linux
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805110150p21b956eah65dc615d17685b25@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805110150p21b956eah65dc615d17685b25@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210517401.7256.4.camel@tim-desktop>

On Sun, 2008-05-11 at 04:50 -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
> My wireless network is almost completely set-up.  Since my access
> point can serve as AP to two SSIDs at the same time, with different
> wireless and LAN settings for both, I've got it partitioned out.
> 
> On one hand, I've got a weak-security WEP network for guests and
> family members with mobile devices that don't support WPA2.  On the
> other hand, I've got a strong-security WPA2-Personal with frequent
> group-key changes.  And since the AP support it, I've got the two
> networks on mutually-exclusive subnets, with the AP/router providing
> Internet service to both.
> 
> Since I can, I'd like to switch the stronger network to
> WPA-Enterprise, and have it authenticate clients against my Linux
> desktop's user accounts.  Which means I need to set up a RADIUS
> server.
> 
> I haven't done that before...Any recommendations or caveats?
> 
Just curious,  What AP do you have? Having 2 SSID's does that mean your
AP has 2WNIC's in it? That would be really nice as a repeater without
losing speed.

Tim


From flanderb at gmail.com  Sun May 11 11:09:23 2008
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 11:09:23 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
Message-ID: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>

What is the social norm.  Isn't that where the normal is commonly
agreed upon?  Is placing responses interspersed throughout the e-mail
commonly agreed upon?

Personally I don't like having to scroll through the whole e-mail to
look for responses.  Sometimes, the response is hidden by the ">" of
the previous empty line.  I prefer top posting.  No scrolling, the
responses all right there.

Since this group is divided on this topic, could we consider one way
or the other a "social norm"?  I don't think so.  I think we need to
just overlook the differing styles of responses and discuss what those
responses are about.

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 7:45 AM, David Pembrook <david at pembrook.net> wrote:
>  > Why do we have to start these things.. I still prefer top post but this
>  >  is only trouble
>
>  Because, as a community, we have no mandatory education system to
>  facilitate passing on our social norms and values.  Thoroughly
>  self-motivated people can still obtain that information, but as we've
>  seen, quite a few people haven't.  So...  a question for the sociology
>  students out there...  how do societies - cultures - enforce their
>  social norms?  (and they _do_ enforce them)
>

>  Through ridicule and loss of respect.
>
>  It would be great if everyone got a decent FOSS community education,
>  but there will always be someone who hasn't.  Flamewars and occasional
>  flare-ups are simply our culture's way of catching the stragglers.
>
>
>
>  --tim
>  _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From tim at izzyig.com  Sun May 11 11:26:41 2008
From: tim at izzyig.com (Tim)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 11:26:41 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210519601.7568.15.camel@tim-desktop>

On Sun, 2008-05-11 at 11:09 -0400, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> What is the social norm.  Isn't that where the normal is commonly
> agreed upon?  Is placing responses interspersed throughout the e-mail
> commonly agreed upon?
> 
> Personally I don't like having to scroll through the whole e-mail to
> look for responses.  Sometimes, the response is hidden by the ">" of
> the previous empty line.  I prefer top posting.  No scrolling, the
> responses all right there.
> 
> Since this group is divided on this topic, could we consider one way
> or the other a "social norm"?  I don't think so.  I think we need to
> just overlook the differing styles of responses and discuss what those
> responses are about.
> 
> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 7:45 AM, David Pembrook <david at pembrook.net> wrote:
> >  > Why do we have to start these things.. I still prefer top post but this
> >  >  is only trouble
> >
> >  Because, as a community, we have no mandatory education system to
> >  facilitate passing on our social norms and values.  Thoroughly
> >  self-motivated people can still obtain that information, but as we've
> >  seen, quite a few people haven't.  So...  a question for the sociology
> >  students out there...  how do societies - cultures - enforce their
> >  social norms?  (and they _do_ enforce them)
> >
> 
> >  Through ridicule and loss of respect.
> >
> >  It would be great if everyone got a decent FOSS community education,
> >  but there will always be someone who hasn't.  Flamewars and occasional
> >  flare-ups are simply our culture's way of catching the stragglers.
> >
> >
> >

Here's my opinion.

Forums are read from the top down, oldest being first. They do not have
new messages at the top of the threads. Mailing lists should adhere to
that same format. The only reason people are weirded out by bottom
posting is because Micro$oft started the trend with Outlook Express. All
other email clients used the bottom post method by default. I'm not sure
about Eudora but I know Thunderbird does. Back in BBS days everything
was bottom post also and I think that's where the mailing list format
originated with FIDONET and such.

Also.

When there is a lot of people responding to the same thread and you top
post it becomes very difficult to follow along. The top post breaks the
flow of a message making you read the bottom first and scroll up. It
just doesn't make sense. If there are 2-3messages in the thread it
doesn't really matter I guess, the "Instant Message" format as mentioned
earlier.

So following from the precedence of fidonet and most other FOSS mailing
lists that specifically require bottom posting I say that it should be
here. I know I'm new on this list but that's my 3 cents.

Tim


From mikemol at gmail.com  Sun May 11 14:37:39 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 14:37:39 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] WPA2-Enterprise, RADIUS and Linux
In-Reply-To: <1210517401.7256.4.camel@tim-desktop>
References: <f5e00c450805110150p21b956eah65dc615d17685b25@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210517401.7256.4.camel@tim-desktop>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805111137i2664de1dxdde3de72aaf4a20d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Tim <tim at izzyig.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 2008-05-11 at 04:50 -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
>> On one hand, I've got a weak-security WEP network for guests and
>> family members with mobile devices that don't support WPA2.  On the
>> other hand, I've got a strong-security WPA2-Personal with frequent
>> group-key changes.  And since the AP support it, I've got the two
>> networks on mutually-exclusive subnets, with the AP/router providing
>> Internet service to both.
>>
> Just curious,  What AP do you have? Having 2 SSID's does that mean your
> AP has 2WNIC's in it? That would be really nice as a repeater without
> losing speed.

It's an ASUS WL-330gE.

http://usa.asus.com/products.aspx?modelmenu=2&model=1710&l1=12&l2=41&l3=0&l4=0
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833320025

It has four different modes.  It can serve as a router (plug the
device into the modem, connect computers over wireless), access point
(plug the device into a switch, and it'll act as a 802.11/Ethernet
bridge), network adapter (plug the device into a computer, and it will
attach to an existing network), or repeater (tell it to attach to one
AP and also serve as an AP for the same SSID).

You can also use it as an adapter and share *your* connection over an
access point served up by the same WL-330gE.  Fun little toy...

The paper manual is crap if you only speak English, but the
advanced-mode web configuration interface has good tooltips for almost
every configuration option.

Oh...and source code is available:
http://support.asus.com/download/download.aspx?SLanguage=en-us&model=WL-330gE

So, anyway, yeah, I can serve up two SSIDs, but according to iwlist,
they both have the same address, just differend SSIDs.

-- 
:wq

From jtr at jrichards.org  Sun May 11 15:27:00 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 15:27:00 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:09:23AM -0400, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> What is the social norm.  Isn't that where the normal is commonly
> agreed upon?  Is placing responses interspersed throughout the e-mail
> commonly agreed upon?

Wow.  How about breaking this "norm..."  You responded to a message in
the middle of a thread, broke the thread (so my mail reader no longer
knows this post is part of an existing thread), and changed the subject
header even though the subject - while evolving - did not really
change.  *That* makes an extended conversation difficult.

Placing responses throughout an email facilitates conversation.  When
speaking face to face you do not tell another five different, perhaps
unrelated things and receive one response for all five topics, do you?
You say something, I respond.  You say something else about something
else, I respond.  The closer written communication follows *natural
conversation* the better.  When I and others insist on following the
established rules of online communication we are really insisting that
written conversations resemble spoken conversations while those who
oppose those rules want to communicate in a manner that is not
intuitive or natural.  Bottom-posting and in-line posting mimics spoken
communication and is far more efficient than one large, combined
response to multiple issues at the top.

> Personally I don't like having to scroll through the whole e-mail to
> look for responses.  Sometimes, the response is hidden by the ">" of
> the previous empty line.  I prefer top posting.  No scrolling, the
> responses all right there.

There is no scrolling *IF* you remember what the post is in response to.
I seriously doubt you never scroll when reading a top-posted response,
unless your memory is far better than mine.

Some do not include a line break between the quoted text and the
response.  This is annoying.

> Since this group is divided on this topic, could we consider one way
> or the other a "social norm"?  I don't think so.  I think we need to
> just overlook the differing styles of responses and discuss what those
> responses are about.

Thirty years of USENET determined that bottom-posting better
facilitates communication.  Since this community is essentially an
online community (the recent monthly meetings notwithstanding) it makes
sense to follow the established rules of communication.

[snip]
-- 
john-thomas
------
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a
troublesome servant and a fearful master.  Never for a moment should it be
left to irresponsible action.
George Washington, first US President (1732-1799)

From tehpopa at gmail.com  Sun May 11 15:38:34 2008
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 15:38:34 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>

Seriously this is the third time my mailbox has to be plagued by e-peen
'This is how you internets' conversations from this list and seriously it's
just annoying as hell right now. Thanks for the help with everything, but
I'm sick of it.

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 3:27 PM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org>
wrote:

> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:09:23AM -0400, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> > What is the social norm.  Isn't that where the normal is commonly
> > agreed upon?  Is placing responses interspersed throughout the e-mail
> > commonly agreed upon?
>
> Wow.  How about breaking this "norm..."  You responded to a message in
> the middle of a thread, broke the thread (so my mail reader no longer
> knows this post is part of an existing thread), and changed the subject
> header even though the subject - while evolving - did not really
> change.  *That* makes an extended conversation difficult.
>
> Placing responses throughout an email facilitates conversation.  When
> speaking face to face you do not tell another five different, perhaps
> unrelated things and receive one response for all five topics, do you?
> You say something, I respond.  You say something else about something
> else, I respond.  The closer written communication follows *natural
> conversation* the better.  When I and others insist on following the
> established rules of online communication we are really insisting that
> written conversations resemble spoken conversations while those who
> oppose those rules want to communicate in a manner that is not
> intuitive or natural.  Bottom-posting and in-line posting mimics spoken
> communication and is far more efficient than one large, combined
> response to multiple issues at the top.
>
> > Personally I don't like having to scroll through the whole e-mail to
> > look for responses.  Sometimes, the response is hidden by the ">" of
> > the previous empty line.  I prefer top posting.  No scrolling, the
> > responses all right there.
>
> There is no scrolling *IF* you remember what the post is in response to.
> I seriously doubt you never scroll when reading a top-posted response,
> unless your memory is far better than mine.
>
> Some do not include a line break between the quoted text and the
> response.  This is annoying.
>
> > Since this group is divided on this topic, could we consider one way
> > or the other a "social norm"?  I don't think so.  I think we need to
> > just overlook the differing styles of responses and discuss what those
> > responses are about.
>
> Thirty years of USENET determined that bottom-posting better
> facilitates communication.  Since this community is essentially an
> online community (the recent monthly meetings notwithstanding) it makes
> sense to follow the established rules of communication.
>
> [snip]
> --
> john-thomas
> ------
> Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a
> troublesome servant and a fearful master.  Never for a moment should it be
> left to irresponsible action.
> George Washington, first US President (1732-1799)
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080511/a85d2fd3/attachment-0001.htm 

From jtr at jrichards.org  Sun May 11 17:54:00 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 17:54:00 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080511215400.GA24307@jrichards.org>

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 03:38:34PM -0400, Justin Popa wrote:
> Seriously this is the third time my mailbox has to be plagued by e-peen
> 'This is how you internets' conversations from this list and seriously it's
> just annoying as hell right now. Thanks for the help with everything, but
> I'm sick of it.

Wow.  A question was asked and I answered it.  Mind you, I did not
raise the question; I answered it.  Perhaps your vitriol is better
directed to the person who asked the question.

[snip]
-- 
john-thomas
------
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of
fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Mon May 12 07:15:08 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 07:15:08 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 3:38 PM, Justin Popa <tehpopa at gmail.com> wrote:
> Seriously this is the third time my mailbox has to be plagued by e-peen
> 'This is how you internets' conversations from this list and seriously it's
> just annoying as hell right now. Thanks for the help with everything, but
> I'm sick of it.

Next time you're in a court room, board or staff meeting, or any other
deliberative assembly, try letting them know that following Robert's
Rules of Order isn't the only way to manage a meeting.  See how well
that goes over.

As J-T R has mentioned, 30 years of experience has determined that
this way works least-worst.  I'm not going to tell you that you can't
top post.  That's not my place.  I'll just point out that, as with any
social norm, disregarding it carries a penalty - a social stigma.  One
that generally results in thrice-full mailboxes of 'e-peen'.

If you're really so upset with the conversation, how about modifying
your habits so it doesn't happen [to you] again?

--tim

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Mon May 12 07:28:24 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 07:28:24 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>

Tim Schmidt wrote:
> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 3:38 PM, Justin Popa <tehpopa at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Seriously this is the third time my mailbox has to be plagued by e-peen
>> 'This is how you internets' conversations from this list and seriously it's
>> just annoying as hell right now. Thanks for the help with everything, but
>> I'm sick of it.
>>     
>
> Next time you're in a court room, board or staff meeting, or any other
> deliberative assembly, try letting them know that following Robert's
> Rules of Order isn't the only way to manage a meeting.  See how well
> that goes over.
>
> As J-T R has mentioned, 30 years of experience has determined that
> this way works least-worst.  I'm not going to tell you that you can't
> top post.  That's not my place.  I'll just point out that, as with any
> social norm, disregarding it carries a penalty - a social stigma.  One
> that generally results in thrice-full mailboxes of 'e-peen'.
>
> If you're really so upset with the conversation, how about modifying
> your habits so it doesn't happen [to you] again?
>
> --tim
>   
Here is the problem though: It seems to be about a 50/50 split on this 
list between people who like top posting (I am one of them) and people 
like you. I bottom post on this list just because bottom posting zealots 
are the loudest, most annoying people on the planet and I'd rather eat 
my own shoe then have to constantly deal with the zealotry of bottom 
posting advocates. So, in that respect, your application of social 
stigma is effective. But on other lists where it's no big deal I switch 
back to top posting for small replies and interspersed posting on longer 
and/or multi-point posts.

For my part I don't really care which method someone uses. I'll find 
their reply if I'm really interested. Doesn't matter if it's top, 
bottom, or interspersed. What I strongly dislike are people who are 
vitriolic either way. Top posting zealots aren't much better than bottom 
posting zealots.

Anyway, don't automatically assume that anyone died and made you king. 
This list hardly seems to have a consensus on top/bottom posting so you 
can't pretend that your position is actually the accepted one.

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Mon May 12 07:36:37 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 07:36:37 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
> Anyway, don't automatically assume that anyone died and made you king.
> This list hardly seems to have a consensus on top/bottom posting so you
> can't pretend that your position is actually the accepted one.

Who limited the scope of this discussion to only this list?

--tim

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Mon May 12 07:38:08 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 07:38:08 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>

Tim Schmidt wrote:
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
>   
>> Anyway, don't automatically assume that anyone died and made you king.
>> This list hardly seems to have a consensus on top/bottom posting so you
>> can't pretend that your position is actually the accepted one.
>>     
>
> Who limited the scope of this discussion to only this list?
>
> --tim
> _______________________________________________
>   

I suppose you did not. But, really, we can only debate what we do here. 
You can't change what other people do. And it's not even a consensus out 
there either. There are plenty of lists where top posting is OK. And, on 
this list, it seems there are plenty of people who, like me, also do not 
mind top posting.

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Mon May 12 08:18:49 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 08:18:49 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 7:38 AM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
> I suppose you did not. But, really, we can only debate what we do here.
> You can't change what other people do. And it's not even a consensus out
> there either. There are plenty of lists where top posting is OK. And, on
> this list, it seems there are plenty of people who, like me, also do not
> mind top posting.

Have you ever used the internet?

--tim

The Jargon file:

bottom-post: v.

    In a news or mail reply, to put the response to a news or email
message after the quoted content from the parent message. This is
correct form, and until around 2000 was so universal on the Internet
that neither the term 'bottom-post' nor its antonym top-post existed.
Hackers consider that the best practice is actually to excerpt only
the relevent portions of the parent message, then intersperse the
poster's response in such a way that each section of response appears
directly after the excerpt it applies to. This reduces message bulk,
keeps thread content in a logical order, and facilitates reading.

Wikipedia:

Inline replying style (or "interleaved reply", "point-by-point
rebuttal", though it is sometimes also called "bottom-posting") was
the original Usenet standard invented and used years before the
existence of the WWW and the widespread public use of email and the
Internet in general.[16] It is a format that can include "top-posting"
for comments that need to precede one's response to specific points of
what is being responded to. It can also include "bottom-posting" for
introducing new material or summarizing what has been said in response
to specific points of the text being replied to. However its major
method and great advantage over previous hard copy correspondence
methods is in giving a specific response to each paragraph, sentence
or even phrase of the text of the message being replied to. This
creates a natural, chronological ordering to each segment of the
discussion stored within a message and helps make clear that the
responder has read/understood all of the post being responded to.
Since paraphrasing is not necessary, the ambiguities, omissions,
misunderstandings or outright intentional distortions inherent in
paraphrasing are avoided and comments are made point-for-point against
the exact quote of the original message.

RFC 1855:

    - If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
      summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
      enough text of the original to give a context.  This will make
      sure readers understand when they start to read your response.
      Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
      postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
      response to a message before seeing the original.  Giving context
      helps everyone.  But do not include the entire original!

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon May 12 08:28:11 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 08:28:11 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <1210595291.4880.3.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> > Next time you're in a court room, board or staff meeting, or any other
> > deliberative assembly, try letting them know that following Robert's
> > Rules of Order isn't the only way to manage a meeting.  See how well
> > that goes over.
> > As J-T R has mentioned, 30 years of experience has determined that
> > this way works least-worst.  I'm not going to tell you that you can't
> > top post.  That's not my place.  I'll just point out that, as with any
> > social norm, disregarding it carries a penalty - a social stigma.  One
> > that generally results in thrice-full mailboxes of 'e-peen'.
> > If you're really so upset with the conversation, how about modifying
> > your habits so it doesn't happen [to you] again?
> Here is the problem though: It seems to be about a 50/50 split on this 
> list between people who like top posting (I am one of them) and people 
> like you.

No, I disagree.  I think there is a significant majority of technical
user who prefer bottom posting.  But most of the time we just ignore
these threads because they occur constantly on innumerable lists.

The only argument for top-posting is "I don't like to scroll down to see
the most recent parts of the message."  If the bogus nature of this
argument [the purpose of the forum extends beyond how conveniently you
perceive reading your mail to be] isn't obvious it isn't worth
discussing.  

Also it helps to use a decent mail client,  in my experience most of the
people who complain about top/bottom posting are using an inferior.


From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon May 12 08:30:20 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 08:30:20 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210595420.4880.6.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> RFC 1855:
> - If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
>   summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
>   enough text of the original to give a context.  This will make
>   sure readers understand when they start to read your response.
>   Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
>   postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
>   response to a message before seeing the original.  Giving context
>   helps everyone.  But do not include the entire original!

Someone should do a public service announcement on all the major
networks.  Or mail a copy of RFC1855 to every household in America!


From adderd at kkmfg.com  Mon May 12 08:34:50 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 08:34:50 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4828396A.3050403@kkmfg.com>

Tim Schmidt wrote:
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 7:38 AM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
>   
>> I suppose you did not. But, really, we can only debate what we do here.
>> You can't change what other people do. And it's not even a consensus out
>> there either. There are plenty of lists where top posting is OK. And, on
>> this list, it seems there are plenty of people who, like me, also do not
>> mind top posting.
>>     
>
> Have you ever used the internet?
>
> --tim
>   

(I snipped out the references you gave)

Let me be brief rather than get into this all over again. There are more 
important things to fight about. To each their own. All I'm asking is 
that you at least try to keep an open mind and abide by those that have 
different conventions than you.


From cwieri39 at calvin.edu  Mon May 12 08:34:27 2008
From: cwieri39 at calvin.edu (Chris Wieringa)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 08:34:27 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] WPA2-Enterprise, RADIUS and Linux
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805110150p21b956eah65dc615d17685b25@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805110150p21b956eah65dc615d17685b25@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48280112.2233.00C6.0@calvin.edu>

>>> On 5/11/2008 at 4:50 AM, in message
<f5e00c450805110150p21b956eah65dc615d17685b25 at mail.gmail.com>, "Michael Mol"
<mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
> My wireless network is almost completely set-up.  Since my access
> point can serve as AP to two SSIDs at the same time, with different
> wireless and LAN settings for both, I've got it partitioned out.
> 
> On one hand, I've got a weak-security WEP network for guests and
> family members with mobile devices that don't support WPA2.  On the
> other hand, I've got a strong-security WPA2-Personal with frequent
> group-key changes.  And since the AP support it, I've got the two
> networks on mutually-exclusive subnets, with the AP/router providing
> Internet service to both.
> 
> Since I can, I'd like to switch the stronger network to
> WPA-Enterprise, and have it authenticate clients against my Linux
> desktop's user accounts.  Which means I need to set up a RADIUS
> server.
> 
> I haven't done that before...Any recommendations or caveats?

I would recommend getting freeRADIUS running on your desktop machine - www.freeradius.org .  When I first set it up, I followed the excellent set of articles in Linux Journal to do so (linked below).  Basically, it requires installing and configuring the server, generating a server self-signed SSL certificate, and setting your AP to authenticate against it.  After that, launch the server in debug mode and try an authentication and work on it from there.  The Linux Journal articles describe setting up 802.1X with TLS and certificates, but it's fairly easy to default your authentication mode to do TLS and PEAP instead when you are setting freeRADIUS up (just make sure your password store is compatible with MS-CHAPv2).

I can answer some basic questions if you have them - shoot me an email off-list.

Chris

Article links:
Part 1: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8017 
Part 2: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8095 
Part 3: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8151 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080512/4a006049/attachment-0001.htm 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature
Size: 3188 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080512/4a006049/attachment-0001.bin 

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon May 12 09:10:41 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 09:10:41 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] WPA2-Enterprise, RADIUS and Linux
In-Reply-To: <48280112.2233.00C6.0@calvin.edu>
References: <f5e00c450805110150p21b956eah65dc615d17685b25@mail.gmail.com>
	<48280112.2233.00C6.0@calvin.edu>
Message-ID: <1210597841.4880.8.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> <f5e00c450805110150p21b956eah65dc615d17685b25 at mail.gmail.com>,
> "Michael Mol"
> <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
> > My wireless network is almost completely set-up.  Since my access
> > point can serve as AP to two SSIDs at the same time, with different
> > wireless and LAN settings for both, I've got it partitioned out.
> > On one hand, I've got a weak-security WEP network for guests and
> > family members with mobile devices that don't support WPA2.  On the
> > other hand, I've got a strong-security WPA2-Personal with frequent
> > group-key changes.  And since the AP support it, I've got the two
> > networks on mutually-exclusive subnets, with the AP/router providing
> > Internet service to both.
> > Since I can, I'd like to switch the stronger network to
> > WPA-Enterprise, and have it authenticate clients against my Linux
> > desktop's user accounts.  Which means I need to set up a RADIUS
> > server.
> > I haven't done that before...Any recommendations or caveats?
> I would recommend getting freeRADIUS running on your desktop machine -
> www.freeradius.org .  When I first set it up, I followed the excellent
> set of articles in Linux Journal to do so (linked below).  Basically,
> it requires installing and configuring the server, generating a server
> self-signed SSL certificate, and setting your AP to authenticate
> against it.  After that, launch the server in debug mode and try an
> authentication and work on it from there.  The Linux Journal articles
> describe setting up 802.1X with TLS and certificates, but it's fairly
> easy to default your authentication mode to do TLS and PEAP instead
> when you are setting freeRADIUS up (just make sure your password store
> is compatible with MS-CHAPv2).

My set-by-step process of setting up PEAP & RADIUS are here
<http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com/node/97>

> I can answer some basic questions if you have them - shoot me an email
> off-list.


From flanderb at gmail.com  Mon May 12 09:57:36 2008
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 09:57:36 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <e8898d550805120657t6c09142dv57b3a9fd8caf00ee@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 3:27 PM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org> wrote:
> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:09:23AM -0400, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
>  > What is the social norm.  Isn't that where the normal is commonly
>  > agreed upon?  Is placing responses interspersed throughout the e-mail
>  > commonly agreed upon?
>
>  Wow.  How about breaking this "norm..."  You responded to a message in
>  the middle of a thread, broke the thread (so my mail reader no longer
>  knows this post is part of an existing thread), and changed the subject
>  header even though the subject - while evolving - did not really
>  change.  *That* makes an extended conversation difficult.
>
<Sniped stuff>

I did all that on purpose.  The original conversation was about 64-bit
linux.  I wanted to respond to a not-on-topic topic.  I changed the
Subject Header because of that.

I hoped to remove this conversation from the existing thread because
the existing thread had a lot of great information about 64-bit linux
and didn't want to sully it my meaningless drivel.  I wanted this to
be in a whole new thread so those that want to follow the 64-bit
question can without wading through this stuff.  History has shown
that this topic can get heated and long winded.

I thought I was doing a good thing.  I am sorry if I offended anyone.
-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Mon May 12 10:02:12 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:02:12 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <e8898d550805120657t6c09142dv57b3a9fd8caf00ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<e8898d550805120657t6c09142dv57b3a9fd8caf00ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805120702p23d1b6ecp598a95a7502e3eed@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 9:57 AM, Benjamin Flanders <flanderb at gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought I was doing a good thing.  I am sorry if I offended anyone.

I wasn't particularly offended, though it did take a second to notice
the new thread amongst all the other stuff in my inbox.  Perhaps a
friendly thread-renaming note under the previous subject would have
helped?  Either way, it wasn't a big deal for me.  YMMV.

--tim

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon May 12 10:07:37 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:07:37 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <e8898d550805120657t6c09142dv57b3a9fd8caf00ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<e8898d550805120657t6c09142dv57b3a9fd8caf00ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210601257.4880.15.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> I hoped to remove this conversation from the existing thread because
> the existing thread had a lot of great information about 64-bit linux
> and didn't want to sully it my meaningless drivel.  I wanted this to
> be in a whole new thread so those that want to follow the 64-bit
> question can without wading through this stuff.  History has shown
> that this topic can get heated and long winded.
> I thought I was doing a good thing.  I am sorry if I offended anyone.

The Subject, at least in "real" mail clients, is not what drives
threading.  A reply message contains the message-id of the message to
which it is a reply, like:

In-Reply-To:
<fc6bb850805081200q34f88b3bk84395d183a25bbc5 at mail.gmail.com>

Every message has a [theoretically] unique message-id recorded in the
Message-ID header.  A message may also contain a "References" header
that contains a list of message-ids that the sending mail client
believed related to the thread of the current message in order to help
the receiving mail client in case it lacks the immediate parent [in the
thread] of the message - remember that e-mail messages can arrive
out-of-order relative to when they were actually sent.

So to create a new thread you must always click "compose" and never
"reply".
-- 
          Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client.
 Contact:awilliam at whitemiceconsulting.com   http://freshmeat.net/projects/consonance/


From flanderb at gmail.com  Mon May 12 10:11:32 2008
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:11:32 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <1210601257.4880.15.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<e8898d550805120657t6c09142dv57b3a9fd8caf00ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210601257.4880.15.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <e8898d550805120711x47885fe6t82222f7e1b2b1d1a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Adam Tauno Williams
<adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I hoped to remove this conversation from the existing thread because
>  > the existing thread had a lot of great information about 64-bit linux
>  > and didn't want to sully it my meaningless drivel.  I wanted this to
>  > be in a whole new thread so those that want to follow the 64-bit
>  > question can without wading through this stuff.  History has shown
>  > that this topic can get heated and long winded.
>  > I thought I was doing a good thing.  I am sorry if I offended anyone.
>
>  The Subject, at least in "real" mail clients, is not what drives
>  threading.  A reply message contains the message-id of the message to
>  which it is a reply, like:
>
>  In-Reply-To:
>  <fc6bb850805081200q34f88b3bk84395d183a25bbc5 at mail.gmail.com>
>
>  Every message has a [theoretically] unique message-id recorded in the
>  Message-ID header.  A message may also contain a "References" header
>  that contains a list of message-ids that the sending mail client
>  believed related to the thread of the current message in order to help
>  the receiving mail client in case it lacks the immediate parent [in the
>  thread] of the message - remember that e-mail messages can arrive
>  out-of-order relative to when they were actually sent.
>
>  So to create a new thread you must always click "compose" and never
>  "reply".
>  --
>           Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client.
>   Contact:awilliam at whitemiceconsulting.com   http://freshmeat.net/projects/consonance/
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

I didn't know that. sorry  I use gmail which splits out threads based
on subject only.


-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon May 12 10:21:02 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:21:02 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <e8898d550805120711x47885fe6t82222f7e1b2b1d1a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<e8898d550805120657t6c09142dv57b3a9fd8caf00ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210601257.4880.15.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<e8898d550805120711x47885fe6t82222f7e1b2b1d1a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210602062.4880.26.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> >  So to create a new thread you must always click "compose" and never
> >  "reply".

In most forums I am in it is acceptable to reply with a subject like:

"Social norms [Was: 64-but Linux]"

and then the next person drops the [Was:" like:

"Re: Social norms".

This makes it obvious to anyone reading the archives (always important
to consider in the style used to post to a forum) that this is a
fork/tangent of the thread.

However, there are forums where thread splitting is never acceptable.
So unless you are familiar with the culture of a forum it is better to
never fork a thread - and when the topic is entirely unrelated [like
this one :)] it is better not to fork an existing thread.

> I didn't know that. sorry  I use gmail which splits out threads based
> on subject only.

Yea,  I think there are numerous facets about GMail that break spec.  I
consider Gmail to be a "bad" mail client.  Which is sad given Google's
praise of openness and standards; most of which I now think of as just
so much marketing bilge.  But GMail accessed via POP or IMAP behaves
correctly as long as the client follows the spec.
-- 
          Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client.
 Contact:awilliam at whitemiceconsulting.com   http://freshmeat.net/projects/consonance/


From greg at gregfolkert.net  Mon May 12 10:24:21 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:24:21 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <4828396A.3050403@kkmfg.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<4828396A.3050403@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <1210602261.23784.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>

Mainly because it doesn't break the flow. If you want an example, here
it is. But then you'll see this shortly.

On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 08:34 -0400, Collin wrote:
> Tim Schmidt wrote:
> > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 7:38 AM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
> >   
> >> I suppose you did not. But, really, we can only debate what we do here.
> >> You can't change what other people do. And it's not even a consensus out
> >> there either. There are plenty of lists where top posting is OK. And, on
> >> this list, it seems there are plenty of people who, like me, also do not
> >> mind top posting.
> >>     
> >
> > Have you ever used the internet?
>
> (I snipped out the references you gave)
and a bravo for that noting.

[SNIP] works as well and most people know what or why.
> 
> Let me be brief rather than get into this all over again. There are more 
> important things to fight about. To each their own. All I'm asking is 
> that you at least try to keep an open mind and abide by those that have 
> different conventions than you.

Its not about YOU. Its about saving hours of other people's time trying
to read this thread *AND* for posterity's sake of the archives being
*READABLE*. For the archivists and people trying to read the particular
64-bit Linux thread... proper quoting and responses either in-line or
bottom posting actually *SAVE TIME* and *READABILITY* actually increases
many fold.

The main reason why in-line or bottom replies work better...

Do you people that top post *EVER* think about anyone *BUT* yourselves?

So, just because you like to drive on the other side of the road, does
that mean you should and not expect some kind of destructive fallout?

I've kept to my own here mostly on this subject. I've been admonished by
a few people to "Lighten up" so... as we can see I'm *BY FAR* not the
only one that believes this.

You seem to follow *some* guidelines as it suites you... its almost like
you are doing a Microsoft EEE (Embrace, Extend, Extinguish) tactic here.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080512/e546848f/attachment.pgp 

From flanderb at gmail.com  Mon May 12 10:25:24 2008
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:25:24 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <e8898d550805120711x47885fe6t82222f7e1b2b1d1a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<e8898d550805120657t6c09142dv57b3a9fd8caf00ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210601257.4880.15.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<e8898d550805120711x47885fe6t82222f7e1b2b1d1a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e8898d550805120725u6c76c017oa3ad897633abd6c5@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:11 AM, Benjamin Flanders <flanderb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Adam Tauno Williams
>  <adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > > I hoped to remove this conversation from the existing thread because
>  >  > the existing thread had a lot of great information about 64-bit linux
>  >  > and didn't want to sully it my meaningless drivel.  I wanted this to
>  >  > be in a whole new thread so those that want to follow the 64-bit
>  >  > question can without wading through this stuff.  History has shown
>  >  > that this topic can get heated and long winded.
>  >  > I thought I was doing a good thing.  I am sorry if I offended anyone.
>  >
>  >  The Subject, at least in "real" mail clients, is not what drives
>  >  threading.  A reply message contains the message-id of the message to
>  >  which it is a reply, like:
>  >
>  >  In-Reply-To:
>  >  <fc6bb850805081200q34f88b3bk84395d183a25bbc5 at mail.gmail.com>
>  >
>  >  Every message has a [theoretically] unique message-id recorded in the
>  >  Message-ID header.  A message may also contain a "References" header
>  >  that contains a list of message-ids that the sending mail client
>  >  believed related to the thread of the current message in order to help
>  >  the receiving mail client in case it lacks the immediate parent [in the
>  >  thread] of the message - remember that e-mail messages can arrive
>  >  out-of-order relative to when they were actually sent.
>  >
>  >  So to create a new thread you must always click "compose" and never
>  >  "reply".
>  >  --
>  >           Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client.
>  >   Contact:awilliam at whitemiceconsulting.com   http://freshmeat.net/projects/consonance/
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >  _______________________________________________
>  >  grlug mailing list
>  >  grlug at grlug.org
>  >  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>  >
>
>  I didn't know that. sorry  I use gmail which splits out threads based
>  on subject only.
>
>
>  --
>  Share and Enjoy
>  Ben
>


Sorry to reply to my own e-mail, but I concede the point about bottom posting.

I guess it was g-mail and my own laziness that made me top post.  I
liked hitting reply and just typing.  I didn't have to scroll down to
the bottom or hit cntrl-end then click above the signature.  Anyway It
was just easier.  I still abhor interspersed replies.

I just tried to change gmail to bottom post and realized it doesn't
have the option, but Googleing came up with a grease monkey script.
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/14256

Now bottom posting is just as easy as top posting was.

-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Mon May 12 10:25:49 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:25:49 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <1210595420.4880.6.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210595420.4880.6.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <1210602349.23784.14.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 08:30 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > RFC 1855:
> > - If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
> >   summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
> >   enough text of the original to give a context.  This will make
> >   sure readers understand when they start to read your response.
> >   Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
> >   postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
> >   response to a message before seeing the original.  Giving context
> >   helps everyone.  But do not include the entire original!
> 
> Someone should do a public service announcement on all the major
> networks.  Or mail a copy of RFC1855 to every household in America!

Which Windows SPAM-BOT network should you use?
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080512/59f685f3/attachment-0001.pgp 

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Mon May 12 10:40:59 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:40:59 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <1210602261.23784.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>	<4828396A.3050403@kkmfg.com>
	<1210602261.23784.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <482856FB.6060206@kkmfg.com>


>> (I snipped out the references you gave)
>>     
> and a bravo for that noting.
>
> [SNIP] works as well and most people know what or why.
>   
Yes, and good for you for taking time out of your busy schedule to tell 
me something so trite and meaningless.

>> Let me be brief rather than get into this all over again. There are more 
>> important things to fight about. To each their own. All I'm asking is 
>> that you at least try to keep an open mind and abide by those that have 
>> different conventions than you.
>>     
>
> Its not about YOU. Its about saving hours of other people's time trying
> to read this thread *AND* for posterity's sake of the archives being
> *READABLE*. For the archivists and people trying to read the particular
> 64-bit Linux thread... proper quoting and responses either in-line or
> bottom posting actually *SAVE TIME* and *READABILITY* actually increases
> many fold.
>   

I have to disagree. Bottom posting is never any easier to read. Let me 
give you an example of what bottom posting is like (and this should 
remind you of the tortured logic that bottom posters use): Bottom 
posting is like having someone tell you a story and ask you a question 
afterward. And so you paraphrase the entire story and repeat the 
question then answer it. They want to ask something else so they 
paraphrase the original story and their question, and your answer and 
then ask another question. Quickly this would be tedious. You don't have 
conversations like that. At least I hope that you do not.

If you need to follow a thread the best thing to do is read it from the 
start. This is the same with all conversations. If you butt into a 
conversation after the fact you'll likely be missing some critical 
details. Top posting keeps the replied to post around in case you missed 
it which is akin to saying "quickly, this is what we talked about now 
try to keep up."

And yes, when I read a forum archive I try to skip up to the top message 
and follow down. This creates the greatest comprehension. And when doing 
that bottom posting is terrible.

> Do you people that top post *EVER* think about anyone *BUT* yourselves?
>   
Well, we probably don't spend quite the same amount of time that people 
like you do complaining about meaningless posting standards. But, as I 
mentioned above, your argument isn't really all that valid.

> I've kept to my own here mostly on this subject. I've been admonished by
> a few people to "Lighten up" so... as we can see I'm *BY FAR* not the
> only one that believes this.
>   
Nor am I *BY FAR* the only one to hold the opposing view.

> You seem to follow *some* guidelines as it suites you... its almost like
> you are doing a Microsoft EEE (Embrace, Extend, Extinguish) tactic here.
>   
Ah yes. The tried and true tactic of bringing up the MS card when your 
arguments start to run into trouble. Now, all you need to do to achieve 
perfection is bring up some form of the scarecrow argument.


And, as I've already said, I DONT CARE. Bottom post if you want. I don't 
like it but I'll do it to make you happy and I'll understand when you do 
it. It's you bottom posting zealots that can't see any other way of 
doing things or anyone else's reasons for why they don't feel as you do.

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Mon May 12 10:46:46 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:46:46 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <482856FB.6060206@kkmfg.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<4828396A.3050403@kkmfg.com>
	<1210602261.23784.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482856FB.6060206@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805120746t770ee925p2afcbb29d411503d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:40 AM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
> And, as I've already said, I DONT CARE. Bottom post if you want. I don't
> like it but I'll do it to make you happy and I'll understand when you do
> it. It's you bottom posting zealots that can't see any other way of
> doing things or anyone else's reasons for why they don't feel as you do.

Yup.  Us and the Robert's Rules sticklers.  We're dicks.

--tim

From ben at eavey.com  Mon May 12 10:49:28 2008
From: ben at eavey.com (Benjamin Eavey)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:49:28 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <482858F8.8080702@eavey.com>

> Hackers consider that the best practice is actually to excerpt only
> the relevant portions of the parent message, then intersperse the
> poster's response in such a way that each section of response appears
> directly after the excerpt it applies to. This reduces message bulk,
> keeps thread content in a logical order, and facilitates reading.

To me, this is the most important thing.  Keep the replies clean!  If 
replying, quote only the relevant parts of the conversation, and not the 
entire thing.  It makes for a lot of scrolling to find the meaningful 
bits, and in a long thread, that gets frustrating.  I'd rather see 
what's being replied to, and then the reply.  Quick, easy, and simple.

Seems like there are several people who like to quote the *entire* 
thread above their reply, headers and all.  To me, that doesn't help 
with conversation flow.  It hinders things instead.

Just my two cents.

-Ben

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Mon May 12 10:51:47 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 10:51:47 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805120746t770ee925p2afcbb29d411503d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>	<4828396A.3050403@kkmfg.com>	<1210602261.23784.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>	<482856FB.6060206@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120746t770ee925p2afcbb29d411503d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48285983.7020408@kkmfg.com>

Tim Schmidt wrote:
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:40 AM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
>   
>> And, as I've already said, I DONT CARE. Bottom post if you want. I don't
>> like it but I'll do it to make you happy and I'll understand when you do
>> it. It's you bottom posting zealots that can't see any other way of
>> doing things or anyone else's reasons for why they don't feel as you do.
>>     
>
> Yup.  Us and the Robert's Rules sticklers.  We're dicks.
>
>   
Hey, at least you said it, not me. ;-) Though I cannot disagree.


From timschmidt at gmail.com  Mon May 12 11:00:49 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:00:49 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <48285983.7020408@kkmfg.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<4828396A.3050403@kkmfg.com>
	<1210602261.23784.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482856FB.6060206@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120746t770ee925p2afcbb29d411503d@mail.gmail.com>
	<48285983.7020408@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805120800r30fa14f4p7cba582028ac9e17@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
>> Yup.  Us and the Robert's Rules sticklers.  We're dicks.
>>
> Hey, at least you said it, not me. ;-) Though I cannot disagree.

Fine with me too.  And meetings and mailing lists are all the more
useful for it.

The work of hundreds of thousands of bastards, well done.  :)

--tim

From rick at vargo.org  Mon May 12 11:02:03 2008
From: rick at vargo.org (Rick Vargo)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:02:03 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <48285983.7020408@kkmfg.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>	<4828396A.3050403@kkmfg.com>	<1210602261.23784.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>	<482856FB.6060206@kkmfg.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120746t770ee925p2afcbb29d411503d@mail.gmail.com>
	<48285983.7020408@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <48285BEB.6020100@vargo.org>

What happened to this group? Whoever is moderating the list needs to 
start banning the whiners before the group falls apart.

Rick


Collin wrote:
> Tim Schmidt wrote:
>   
>> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:40 AM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> And, as I've already said, I DONT CARE. Bottom post if you want. I don't
>>> like it but I'll do it to make you happy and I'll understand when you do
>>> it. It's you bottom posting zealots that can't see any other way of
>>> doing things or anyone else's reasons for why they don't feel as you do.
>>>     
>>>       
>> Yup.  Us and the Robert's Rules sticklers.  We're dicks.
>>
>>   
>>     
> Hey, at least you said it, not me. ;-) Though I cannot disagree.
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>   

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Mon May 12 11:10:32 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:10:32 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <48285BEB.6020100@vargo.org>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<4828396A.3050403@kkmfg.com>
	<1210602261.23784.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482856FB.6060206@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120746t770ee925p2afcbb29d411503d@mail.gmail.com>
	<48285983.7020408@kkmfg.com> <48285BEB.6020100@vargo.org>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805120810t1300d2d5n78cec52f65b54de2@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:02 AM, Rick Vargo <rick at vargo.org> wrote:
> What happened to this group? Whoever is moderating the list needs to
> start banning the whiners before the group falls apart.

I doubt that's necessary.  As I've mentioned, social forces will do
their thing -- however you want to interpret that.  The point being,
that it's a natural process within any community.

Unruly youth always think they know better ;)

--tim

From networkman at triton.net  Mon May 12 11:36:13 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (Rich Nagel)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:36:13 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com><2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<482858F8.8080702@eavey.com>
Message-ID: <CCF72578FEB143E589CED08602C57E7A@kdl.net>

Completely agree with Ben here: please try to keep the posts clean(language 
too).

Rich

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Benjamin Eavey" <ben at eavey.com>
To: <grlug at grlug.org>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Social norms


>> Hackers consider that the best practice is actually to excerpt only
>> the relevant portions of the parent message, then intersperse the
>> poster's response in such a way that each section of response appears
>> directly after the excerpt it applies to. This reduces message bulk,
>> keeps thread content in a logical order, and facilitates reading.
>
> To me, this is the most important thing.  Keep the replies clean!  If
> replying, quote only the relevant parts of the conversation, and not the
> entire thing.  It makes for a lot of scrolling to find the meaningful
> bits, and in a long thread, that gets frustrating.  I'd rather see
> what's being replied to, and then the reply.  Quick, easy, and simple.
>
> Seems like there are several people who like to quote the *entire*
> thread above their reply, headers and all.  To me, that doesn't help
> with conversation flow.  It hinders things instead.
>
> Just my two cents.
>
> -Ben


From timschmidt at gmail.com  Mon May 12 11:45:45 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:45:45 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <CCF72578FEB143E589CED08602C57E7A@kdl.net>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<482858F8.8080702@eavey.com>
	<CCF72578FEB143E589CED08602C57E7A@kdl.net>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805120845y62a51e0bl1b13e123953bd5c6@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Rich Nagel <networkman at triton.net> wrote:
> Completely agree with Ben here: please try to keep the posts clean

Agreed.

> (language too).

That's another flame-ware entirely.

--tim

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Mon May 12 11:46:14 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:46:14 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805120845y62a51e0bl1b13e123953bd5c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<482858F8.8080702@eavey.com>
	<CCF72578FEB143E589CED08602C57E7A@kdl.net>
	<2c97fe9d0805120845y62a51e0bl1b13e123953bd5c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805120846h4ffadc8ex1ef6c399e7905982@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> That's another flame-ware entirely.

err...  flame-war

--tim

From mikemol at gmail.com  Mon May 12 11:55:14 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:55:14 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805120845y62a51e0bl1b13e123953bd5c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<482858F8.8080702@eavey.com>
	<CCF72578FEB143E589CED08602C57E7A@kdl.net>
	<2c97fe9d0805120845y62a51e0bl1b13e123953bd5c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805120855s7b48277dk29547993a454a822@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>> (language too).
>
> That's another flame-ware entirely.

I'd much rather have an argument about Perl vs Ruby than another
top-post/bottom-post argument.

-- 
:wq

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Mon May 12 11:56:32 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:56:32 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805120855s7b48277dk29547993a454a822@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<482858F8.8080702@eavey.com>
	<CCF72578FEB143E589CED08602C57E7A@kdl.net>
	<2c97fe9d0805120845y62a51e0bl1b13e123953bd5c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805120855s7b48277dk29547993a454a822@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805120856w3462b93an828ab9a9220d2c2b@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> (language too).
>>
>> That's another flame-ware entirely.
>
> I'd much rather have an argument about Perl vs Ruby than another
> top-post/bottom-post argument.

Heh...  nice.  :)

--tim

From tim at izzyig.com  Mon May 12 12:37:45 2008
From: tim at izzyig.com (Tim)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:37:45 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805120855s7b48277dk29547993a454a822@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>	<482858F8.8080702@eavey.com>	<CCF72578FEB143E589CED08602C57E7A@kdl.net>	<2c97fe9d0805120845y62a51e0bl1b13e123953bd5c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805120855s7b48277dk29547993a454a822@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48287259.7040307@izzyig.com>

Michael Mol wrote:
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>>> (language too).
>>>       
>> That's another flame-ware entirely.
>>     
>
> I'd much rather have an argument about Perl vs Ruby than another
> top-post/bottom-post argument.
>
>   
Are you arguing the Ruby language or Rails the framework?



From mikemol at gmail.com  Mon May 12 12:42:50 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:42:50 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <48287259.7040307@izzyig.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<482858F8.8080702@eavey.com>
	<CCF72578FEB143E589CED08602C57E7A@kdl.net>
	<2c97fe9d0805120845y62a51e0bl1b13e123953bd5c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805120855s7b48277dk29547993a454a822@mail.gmail.com>
	<48287259.7040307@izzyig.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805120942g7149e9fx392ac96404bfeac0@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Tim <tim at izzyig.com> wrote:
> Michael Mol wrote:
>> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> (language too).
>>>>
>>> That's another flame-ware entirely.
>>>
>>
>> I'd much rather have an argument about Perl vs Ruby than another
>> top-post/bottom-post argument.
>>
>>
> Are you arguing the Ruby language or Rails the framework?

I don't usually hear about one in use without the other. :-)

But seriously, I'd rather not have that argument, either, since I
don't know enough about Ruby to argue for or against it; I'd simply
prefer such an argument over a top-post/bottom-post one, because a
language argument has the possibility of being more technical...


-- 
:wq

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Mon May 12 13:34:14 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:34:14 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805120942g7149e9fx392ac96404bfeac0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<482858F8.8080702@eavey.com>
	<CCF72578FEB143E589CED08602C57E7A@kdl.net>
	<2c97fe9d0805120845y62a51e0bl1b13e123953bd5c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805120855s7b48277dk29547993a454a822@mail.gmail.com>
	<48287259.7040307@izzyig.com>
	<f5e00c450805120942g7149e9fx392ac96404bfeac0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805121034n4fb12085x55c46d2be13de5c9@mail.gmail.com>

enough children! we do not want argue anymore!

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Tim <tim at izzyig.com> wrote:
> > Michael Mol wrote:
> >> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> (language too).
> >>>>
> >>> That's another flame-ware entirely.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I'd much rather have an argument about Perl vs Ruby than another
> >> top-post/bottom-post argument.
> >>
> >>
> > Are you arguing the Ruby language or Rails the framework?
>
> I don't usually hear about one in use without the other. :-)
>
> But seriously, I'd rather not have that argument, either, since I
> don't know enough about Ruby to argue for or against it; I'd simply
> prefer such an argument over a top-post/bottom-post one, because a
> language argument has the possibility of being more technical...
>
>
> --
> :wq
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon May 12 13:36:46 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:36:46 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805120855s7b48277dk29547993a454a822@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<482858F8.8080702@eavey.com> <CCF72578FEB143E589CED08602C57E7A@kdl.net>
	<2c97fe9d0805120845y62a51e0bl1b13e123953bd5c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805120855s7b48277dk29547993a454a822@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210613806.5205.0.camel@aleph>


On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 11:55 -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> (language too)
> > That's another flame-ware entirely.
> I'd much rather have an argument about Perl vs Ruby

Can I pick neither?


From phillip at phtconsulting.com  Mon May 12 13:43:39 2008
From: phillip at phtconsulting.com (Phillip Hebenstreit)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:43:39 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] grlug Digest, Vol 26, Issue 39
In-Reply-To: <mailman.848.1210613043.3996.grlug@grlug.org>
References: <mailman.848.1210613043.3996.grlug@grlug.org>
Message-ID: <6C20DE07B7C944CD94BFEF508BCF235E@mezzevisa>

Neither.




From timschmidt at gmail.com  Mon May 12 14:01:08 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 14:01:08 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] grlug Digest, Vol 26, Issue 39
In-Reply-To: <6C20DE07B7C944CD94BFEF508BCF235E@mezzevisa>
References: <mailman.848.1210613043.3996.grlug@grlug.org>
	<6C20DE07B7C944CD94BFEF508BCF235E@mezzevisa>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805121101m10017ec8p94924e610c5f19b4@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Phillip Hebenstreit
<phillip at phtconsulting.com> wrote:
> Neither.

You bottom-posted too much.

--tim

From jtr at jrichards.org  Mon May 12 14:17:09 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 14:17:09 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] grlug Digest, Vol 26, Issue 39
In-Reply-To: <6C20DE07B7C944CD94BFEF508BCF235E@mezzevisa>
References: <mailman.848.1210613043.3996.grlug@grlug.org>
	<6C20DE07B7C944CD94BFEF508BCF235E@mezzevisa>
Message-ID: <20080512181709.GA7353@jrichards.org>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 01:43:39PM -0400, Phillip Hebenstreit wrote:
> Neither.

Hah!  Dude, this is absolutely funny!  No usable subject line, no
context, no nothing!  Oh, boy.  I am laughing my fool head off at my
desk.  Seriously.  I do not know if you meant to be funny, but oh, my!
In light of the thread about long-accepted list standards this one is
hilarious.  I was torn between top-posting a "Me, too!" (which would be
almost as funny) and complimenting you.  Good one.  (No sarcasm
intended or implied; this is genuinely funny.)
-- 
john-thomas
------
The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him
absolutely no good.
Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784)

From jtr at jrichards.org  Mon May 12 14:28:37 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 14:28:37 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0805121034n4fb12085x55c46d2be13de5c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<482858F8.8080702@eavey.com>
	<CCF72578FEB143E589CED08602C57E7A@kdl.net>
	<2c97fe9d0805120845y62a51e0bl1b13e123953bd5c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805120855s7b48277dk29547993a454a822@mail.gmail.com>
	<48287259.7040307@izzyig.com>
	<f5e00c450805120942g7149e9fx392ac96404bfeac0@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805121034n4fb12085x55c46d2be13de5c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080512182837.GB7353@jrichards.org>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 01:34:14PM -0400, Professor Inuyasha wrote:
> enough children! we do not want argue anymore!

I see you did not read my response to your initial question.

;-)

> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Tim <tim at izzyig.com> wrote:
> > > Michael Mol wrote:
> > >> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
-- 
john-thomas
------
There is no more irritating fellow than the man who tries to settle an
argument about communism, or justice, or liberty, by quoting from Webster.
Mortimer J. Adler, philosopher, educator, and author (1902-2001)

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Mon May 12 14:38:59 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 14:38:59 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] grlug Digest, Vol 26, Issue 39
In-Reply-To: <20080512181709.GA7353@jrichards.org>
References: <mailman.848.1210613043.3996.grlug@grlug.org>
	<6C20DE07B7C944CD94BFEF508BCF235E@mezzevisa>
	<20080512181709.GA7353@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805121138w4f6964d3v4e1259bd8080879c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 2:17 PM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org> wrote:
> Hah!  Dude, this is absolutely funny!  No usable subject line, no
> context, no nothing!  Oh, boy.  I am laughing my fool head off at my
> desk.  Seriously.  I do not know if you meant to be funny, but oh, my!
> In light of the thread about long-accepted list standards this one is
> hilarious.  I was torn between top-posting a "Me, too!" (which would be
> almost as funny) and complimenting you.  Good one.  (No sarcasm
> intended or implied; this is genuinely funny.)

I certainly got more than a little chuckle.  :D

--tim

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon May 12 14:46:56 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 14:46:56 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <1210602349.23784.14.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210595420.4880.6.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1210602349.23784.14.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <1210618016.4663.1.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>


On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 10:25 -0400, Greg Folkert wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 08:30 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > > RFC 1855:
> > > - If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
> > >   summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
> > >   enough text of the original to give a context.  This will make
> > >   sure readers understand when they start to read your response.
> > >   Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
> > >   postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
> > >   response to a message before seeing the original.  Giving context
> > >   helps everyone.  But do not include the entire original!
> > Someone should do a public service announcement on all the major
> > networks.  Or mail a copy of RFC1855 to every household in America!
> Which Windows SPAM-BOT network should you use?

I meant mail as in postal-snail-mail-hard-copy.  Most people don't ever
check their e-mail... there is too much SPAM! :)
-- 
          Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client.
 Contact:awilliam at whitemiceconsulting.com   http://freshmeat.net/projects/consonance/


From bob.kline at gmail.com  Mon May 12 15:36:42 2008
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 15:36:42 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <1210602261.23784.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com>
	<4828396A.3050403@kkmfg.com>
	<1210602261.23784.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <d181b7d70805121236w394b85ddib88dd88131b0042f@mail.gmail.com>

"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of
sound and fury, signifying nothing."

       -Macbeth

It might be time to
expand the discussion from just
vertical to include
horizontal.  i.e.,  how
about a major blowout now over
line lengths?

I almost never read the
group
any more,  so don't bother
particularly venting against
me, but do make sure
the rubes are clear on
that too.  And maybe a few
words about
fonts. Punctuation
and speling two.

But avoiding all useful
content is OK.  Yes,  like
I just did.  And if the rubes
don't knuckle under, go
off and pout.

    -bOB


On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Greg Folkert <greg at gregfolkert.net> wrote:

> Mainly because it doesn't break the flow. If you want an example, here
> it is. But then you'll see this shortly.
>
> On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 08:34 -0400, Collin wrote:
> > Tim Schmidt wrote:
> > > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 7:38 AM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I suppose you did not. But, really, we can only debate what we do
> here.
> > >> You can't change what other people do. And it's not even a consensus
> out
> > >> there either. There are plenty of lists where top posting is OK. And,
> on
> > >> this list, it seems there are plenty of people who, like me, also do
> not
> > >> mind top posting.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Have you ever used the internet?
> >
> > (I snipped out the references you gave)
> and a bravo for that noting.
>
> [SNIP] works as well and most people know what or why.
> >
> > Let me be brief rather than get into this all over again. There are more
> > important things to fight about. To each their own. All I'm asking is
> > that you at least try to keep an open mind and abide by those that have
> > different conventions than you.
>
> Its not about YOU. Its about saving hours of other people's time trying
> to read this thread *AND* for posterity's sake of the archives being
> *READABLE*. For the archivists and people trying to read the particular
> 64-bit Linux thread... proper quoting and responses either in-line or
> bottom posting actually *SAVE TIME* and *READABILITY* actually increases
> many fold.
>
> The main reason why in-line or bottom replies work better...
>
> Do you people that top post *EVER* think about anyone *BUT* yourselves?
>
> So, just because you like to drive on the other side of the road, does
> that mean you should and not expect some kind of destructive fallout?
>
> I've kept to my own here mostly on this subject. I've been admonished by
> a few people to "Lighten up" so... as we can see I'm *BY FAR* not the
> only one that believes this.
>
> You seem to follow *some* guidelines as it suites you... its almost like
> you are doing a Microsoft EEE (Embrace, Extend, Extinguish) tactic here.
> --
> greg at gregfolkert.net
> PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
> Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
> Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
> Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080512/289f2be2/attachment.htm 

From networkman at triton.net  Mon May 12 16:21:17 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (Rich Nagel)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:21:17 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
References: DEFANGED[2]:<e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com><20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org><ca1715f80805111238q388f3878vbf7448f77dd4c785@mail.gmail.com><2c97fe9d0805120415l342fa3e7j491efafc2d0242a0@mail.gmail.com><482829D8.6020900@kkmfg.com><2c97fe
	" "
	9d0805120436v5872da29p6380f33445d0ac6a@mail.gmail.com><48282C20.9010900@kkmfg.com><2c97fe9d0805120518m5f33aeby25d4fe0463101966@mail.gmail.com><4828396A.3050403@kkmfg.com><1210602261.23784.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<d181b7d70805121236w394b85ddib88dd88131b0042f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4689D72CD3644654A79C801B032BE2CC@kdl.net>

I just got done deleting the entire "Social Norms" thread from my Inbox, 
but this particular post I think I'll keep. Thanks Bob! :)

Cheerio!

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Kline 
  To: grlug at grlug.org 
  Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Social norms


  "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of 
  sound and fury, signifying nothing."

         -Macbeth

  It might be time to
  expand the discussion from just
  vertical to include
  horizontal.  i.e.,  how
  about a major blowout now over
  line lengths?

  I almost never read the 
  group
  any more,  so don't bother
  particularly venting against
  me, but do make sure
  the rubes are clear on
  that too.  And maybe a few
  words about 
  fonts. Punctuation
  and speling two.

  But avoiding all useful
  content is OK.  Yes,  like
  I just did.  And if the rubes
  don't knuckle under, go
  off and pout.

      -bOB



  On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Greg Folkert <greg at gregfolkert.net> wrote:

    Mainly because it doesn't break the flow. If you want an example, here
    it is. But then you'll see this shortly.


    On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 08:34 -0400, Collin wrote:
    > Tim Schmidt wrote:
    > > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 7:38 AM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
    > >
    > >> I suppose you did not. But, really, we can only debate what we do here.
    > >> You can't change what other people do. And it's not even a consensus out
    > >> there either. There are plenty of lists where top posting is OK. And, on
    > >> this list, it seems there are plenty of people who, like me, also do not
    > >> mind top posting.
    > >>
    > >
    > > Have you ever used the internet?
    >

    > (I snipped out the references you gave)

    and a bravo for that noting.

    [SNIP] works as well and most people know what or why.

    >
    > Let me be brief rather than get into this all over again. There are more
    > important things to fight about. To each their own. All I'm asking is
    > that you at least try to keep an open mind and abide by those that have
    > different conventions than you.


    Its not about YOU. Its about saving hours of other people's time trying
    to read this thread *AND* for posterity's sake of the archives being
    *READABLE*. For the archivists and people trying to read the particular
    64-bit Linux thread... proper quoting and responses either in-line or
    bottom posting actually *SAVE TIME* and *READABILITY* actually increases
    many fold.

    The main reason why in-line or bottom replies work better...

    Do you people that top post *EVER* think about anyone *BUT* yourselves?

    So, just because you like to drive on the other side of the road, does
    that mean you should and not expect some kind of destructive fallout?

    I've kept to my own here mostly on this subject. I've been admonished by
    a few people to "Lighten up" so... as we can see I'm *BY FAR* not the
    only one that believes this.

    You seem to follow *some* guidelines as it suites you... its almost like
    you are doing a Microsoft EEE (Embrace, Extend, Extinguish) tactic here.
    --
    greg at gregfolkert.net
    PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
    Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
    Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
    Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2

    _______________________________________________
    grlug mailing list
    grlug at grlug.org
    http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  grlug mailing list
  grlug at grlug.org
  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080512/5e2a5ec1/attachment-0001.htm 

From phillip at phtconsulting.com  Mon May 12 16:40:56 2008
From: phillip at phtconsulting.com (Phillip Hebenstreit)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:40:56 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
Message-ID: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>

hi everyone,

Has anyone setup a fax server recently and if so could you make any
recommendations to me?

One feature I would really like, is the ability to have several friends
email my mail server and then have the fax server send those as well.

Normal Example (I believe):
  1. you type an email
  2. attach file or information
  3. put outgoing fax # in subject line
  4. send message
  5. email / fax server grabs the message and faxes it out to the # in the
subject

My additional feature:
  1. receive email from a friend
  2. check if email is from an authorized source (maybe just a filter)
  3. forward email to fax server to send out fax.

Thanks everyone

phill

ps  Top & bottom posters welcome
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/defanged-192
Size: 1107 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080512/4d70bed1/attachment.bin 

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Mon May 12 16:56:36 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:56:36 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
In-Reply-To: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805121356w1168947emd7780063bf97732f@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Phillip Hebenstreit
<phillip at phtconsulting.com> wrote:
> <div>hi everyone,</div>
> <div>&nbsp;</div>
> <div>Has anyone setup a fax server recently and if so could you make any recommendations to me?</div>
> <div>&nbsp;</div>
> <div>One feature I would really like, is the ability to have several friends email my mail server and then have the fax server send those as well.</div>
> <div>&nbsp;</div>
> <div>Normal Example (I believe):</div>

[snip]

I'm sitting this one out.

--tim

From bott at grpl.org  Mon May 12 16:58:35 2008
From: bott at grpl.org (Bill Ott)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:58:35 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
In-Reply-To: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4828AF7B.8060506@grpl.org>


> Has anyone setup a fax server recently and if so could you make any
> recommendations to me?
>   

Recently is relative, but I've use HylaFax quite successfully in the past.


> One feature I would really like, is the ability to have several friends
> email my mail server and then have the fax server send those as well.
>   

See their Email to Fax Gateway documentation:
  http://www.hylafax.org/content/Email_to_Fax_Gateway



From flanderb at gmail.com  Mon May 12 18:02:24 2008
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:02:24 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805121356w1168947emd7780063bf97732f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805121356w1168947emd7780063bf97732f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e8898d550805121502y4090a158md5331dcf224fab92@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:56 PM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Phillip Hebenstreit
>  <phillip at phtconsulting.com> wrote:
>  > <div>hi everyone,</div>
>  > <div>&nbsp;</div>
>  > <div>Has anyone setup a fax server recently and if so could you make any recommendations to me?</div>
>  > <div>&nbsp;</div>
>  > <div>One feature I would really like, is the ability to have several friends email my mail server and then have the fax server send those as well.</div>
>  > <div>&nbsp;</div>
>  > <div>Normal Example (I believe):</div>
>
>  [snip]
>
>  I'm sitting this one out.
>
>  --tim
>  _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>


Hehehe ...

Um yea.  What is up with all the div's?  What client does this?
G-mail does html formatting of e-mails, why doesn't it treat this as
an html formatted e-mail?

I know I am showing my ignorance here, but I am rather interested if
anyone knows off hand.

-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From mikemol at gmail.com  Mon May 12 18:07:04 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:07:04 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
In-Reply-To: <e8898d550805121502y4090a158md5331dcf224fab92@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805121356w1168947emd7780063bf97732f@mail.gmail.com>
	<e8898d550805121502y4090a158md5331dcf224fab92@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805121507h3a371f89sf5facbf74299742a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Benjamin Flanders <flanderb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:56 PM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Phillip Hebenstreit
>  >  <phillip at phtconsulting.com> wrote:
>  >  > <div>hi everyone,</div>
>  >  > <div>&nbsp;</div>
>  >  > <div>Has anyone setup a fax server recently and if so could you make any recommendations to me?</div>
>  >  > <div>&nbsp;</div>
>  >  > <div>One feature I would really like, is the ability to have several friends email my mail server and then have the fax server send those as well.</div>
>  >  > <div>&nbsp;</div>
>  >  > <div>Normal Example (I believe):</div>
>  >  I'm sitting this one out.
>  Hehehe ...
>
>  Um yea.  What is up with all the div's?  What client does this?
>  G-mail does html formatting of e-mails, why doesn't it treat this as
>  an html formatted e-mail?
>
>  I know I am showing my ignorance here, but I am rather interested if
>  anyone knows off hand.

The client is sending an HTML email, and the mailing list software is
forcing a MIME type switch to a plaintext form...so the HTML code
shows up.

I wish the did something like strip HTML, or even let it pass through;
I'd be surprised if anyone on the list is using a client that can't do
some form of clean fallback for HTML emails.


-- 
:wq

From jtr at jrichards.org  Mon May 12 18:09:12 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:09:12 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <e8898d550805120657t6c09142dv57b3a9fd8caf00ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080511192700.GA20632@jrichards.org>
	<e8898d550805120657t6c09142dv57b3a9fd8caf00ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080512220912.GA12034@jrichards.org>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 09:57:36AM -0400, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 3:27 PM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org> wrote:
> > On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:09:23AM -0400, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> >  > What is the social norm.  Isn't that where the normal is commonly
> >  > agreed upon?  Is placing responses interspersed throughout the e-mail
> >  > commonly agreed upon?
> >
> >  Wow.  How about breaking this "norm..."  You responded to a message in
> >  the middle of a thread, broke the thread (so my mail reader no longer
> >  knows this post is part of an existing thread), and changed the subject
> >  header even though the subject - while evolving - did not really
> >  change.  *That* makes an extended conversation difficult.
> >
> <Sniped stuff>
> 
> I did all that on purpose.  The original conversation was about 64-bit
> linux.  I wanted to respond to a not-on-topic topic.  I changed the
> Subject Header because of that.
> 
> I hoped to remove this conversation from the existing thread because
> the existing thread had a lot of great information about 64-bit linux
> and didn't want to sully it my meaningless drivel.  I wanted this to
> be in a whole new thread so those that want to follow the 64-bit
> question can without wading through this stuff.  History has shown
> that this topic can get heated and long winded.

That makes sense.  It is wacky that (as you mentioned in another post)
Google breaks threading on subject header.  I have never seen that
before.  I have seen mail clients that "thread" messages based on
subject, but never one that actually breaks the threading.  Bizarre.

> I thought I was doing a good thing.  I am sorry if I offended anyone.

Offended?  I cannot imagine how...
-- 
john-thomas
------
Lots of people think they're charitable if they give away their old clothes
and things they don't want.  It isn't charity to give away things you want
to get rid of and it isn't a sacrifice to do things you don't mind doing.
Myrtle Reed, author (1874-1911)

From mailtonick at gmail.com  Mon May 12 18:18:17 2008
From: mailtonick at gmail.com (Nick Suravaram)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:18:17 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805121507h3a371f89sf5facbf74299742a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805121356w1168947emd7780063bf97732f@mail.gmail.com>
	<e8898d550805121502y4090a158md5331dcf224fab92@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805121507h3a371f89sf5facbf74299742a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bcf8860805121518w4dbb7d73g423a83556f321fe@mail.gmail.com>

Bill, What kind of hardware did you run Hylafax on?

My $0.02... I'm currently maintaining a Rightfax system that seems to be
reaching it's end. After considering the time and cost to replace and
maintain it, I've decided to move to online Fax services for fax-email and
email-fax.

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Benjamin Flanders <flanderb at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:56 PM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >  > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Phillip Hebenstreit
> >  >  <phillip at phtconsulting.com> wrote:
> >  >  > <div>hi everyone,</div>
> >  >  > <div>&nbsp;</div>
> >  >  > <div>Has anyone setup a fax server recently and if so could you
> make any recommendations to me?</div>
> >  >  > <div>&nbsp;</div>
> >  >  > <div>One feature I would really like, is the ability to have
> several friends email my mail server and then have the fax server send those
> as well.</div>
> >  >  > <div>&nbsp;</div>
> >  >  > <div>Normal Example (I believe):</div>
> >  >  I'm sitting this one out.
> >  Hehehe ...
> >
> >  Um yea.  What is up with all the div's?  What client does this?
> >  G-mail does html formatting of e-mails, why doesn't it treat this as
> >  an html formatted e-mail?
> >
> >  I know I am showing my ignorance here, but I am rather interested if
> >  anyone knows off hand.
>
> The client is sending an HTML email, and the mailing list software is
> forcing a MIME type switch to a plaintext form...so the HTML code
> shows up.
>
> I wish the did something like strip HTML, or even let it pass through;
> I'd be surprised if anyone on the list is using a client that can't do
> some form of clean fallback for HTML emails.
>
>
> --
> :wq
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080512/789de4d6/attachment.htm 

From verduin at ameritech.net  Mon May 12 19:03:30 2008
From: verduin at ameritech.net (George (Skip) VerDuin)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 19:03:30 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
In-Reply-To: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210633410.20245.180.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>

Have I got a "deal" for you Phillip...

On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 16:40 -0400, Phillip Hebenstreit wrote:
> hi everyone,
> 
> Has anyone setup a fax server recently and if so could you make any
> recommendations to me?
Crossing the lines between the two technologies [FAX & data] does work
and has been used maybe ten(+) years to advantage in spots.  In 2008 it
appears to be a pretty small niche.  If FAX scratches an itch for you,
go for it -- it is proven technology.

Your question jogged my memory that I have two *old* fax cards that need
a new home -- or need recycling.  One is a Panasonic FX-BM89, the other
is a Hayes JT Fax 9600, software included but may be outdated.  The card
interface is ISA so hardware may not be useful to you either.  These are
removals from a Dell server with SCO (douse the flames) UNIX in 2001
when my business sold.  

The server itself is on it's way to recycling, but could be diverted in
the next few days if it found a new home.  It includes a 16-port RS-232
interface that I have tried for years to find use for without joy.

Our application was to create faxes from data spit out of the vertical
admin. package we used, and to spool incoming faxes for display prior to
printing.  This pre-dated Internet data transfer, and is now a
superseded technology.  I was quite pleased with the operation, but the
down side was that it was too abstract for non-computer users who needed
a paper to scrawl on.

So -- if you (or anyone else for that matter) don't already have
hardware these could be yours for the asking.  If no one finds use for
this hardware it will end up in the bin.

Warmest regards from here,
George


From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon May 12 19:23:06 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 19:23:06 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
In-Reply-To: <30bcf8860805121518w4dbb7d73g423a83556f321fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805121356w1168947emd7780063bf97732f@mail.gmail.com>
	<e8898d550805121502y4090a158md5331dcf224fab92@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805121507h3a371f89sf5facbf74299742a@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bcf8860805121518w4dbb7d73g423a83556f321fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210634586.5574.7.camel@aleph>


On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 18:18 -0400, Nick Suravaram wrote:
> 
> Bill, What kind of hardware did you run Hylafax on? 

We run HylaFAX on an ancient IBM Netfinity 4000R for ~250 users.  The
box has a Multitech ISI 8-port fax board;  certainly not the board you'd
buy today, but it works very well (hasn't required a reset in over a
year,  last outage was because of a failed UPS).

# uptime
7:20pm  up 498 days 22:00,  2 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.05, 0.01

External modems work as well so long as you get good ones,  but eight
external modems was rather bulky (the Multitech 1932z was what we used
before the fax board).



From bott at grpl.org  Mon May 12 20:04:56 2008
From: bott at grpl.org (Bill Ott)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:04:56 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
In-Reply-To: <30bcf8860805121518w4dbb7d73g423a83556f321fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>	<2c97fe9d0805121356w1168947emd7780063bf97732f@mail.gmail.com>	<e8898d550805121502y4090a158md5331dcf224fab92@mail.gmail.com>	<f5e00c450805121507h3a371f89sf5facbf74299742a@mail.gmail.com>
	<30bcf8860805121518w4dbb7d73g423a83556f321fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4828DB28.6080502@grpl.org>

 > What kind of hardware did you run Hylafax on?

External Zoom modems. 




From tim at izzyig.com  Mon May 12 22:41:49 2008
From: tim at izzyig.com (Tim)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 22:41:49 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
In-Reply-To: <1210633410.20245.180.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
References: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210633410.20245.180.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
Message-ID: <4828FFED.5090105@izzyig.com>


> The server itself is on it's way to recycling, but could be diverted in
> the next few days if it found a new home.  It includes a 16-port RS-232
> interface that I have tried for years to find use for without joy.
>
>   
Is that rs232 card PCI or ISA. I've been looking for one of those for 
while to control a set of servers without needing to mess with a kvm.

Tim

From verduin at ameritech.net  Mon May 12 23:17:18 2008
From: verduin at ameritech.net (George (Skip) VerDuin)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 03:17:18 +0000
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
In-Reply-To: <4828FFED.5090105@izzyig.com>
References: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210633410.20245.180.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
	<4828FFED.5090105@izzyig.com>
Message-ID: <1210648638.16001.6.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>

I'm sorry Tim, neither...

On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 22:41 -0400, Tim wrote:
> > The server itself is on it's way to recycling, but could be diverted in
> > the next few days if it found a new home.  It includes a 16-port RS-232
> > interface that I have tried for years to find use for without joy.
> >
> >   
> Is that rs232 card PCI or ISA.
It's the EISA bus interface -- very(?) rare today.
But then so is the Dell server...

>  I've been looking for one of those for 
> while to control a set of servers without needing to mess with a kvm.
> 
> Tim
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

Warmest regards from here,
George


From geektoyz at gmail.com  Mon May 12 23:59:34 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 23:59:34 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
In-Reply-To: <1210648638.16001.6.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
References: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210633410.20245.180.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
	<4828FFED.5090105@izzyig.com>
	<1210648638.16001.6.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805122059o61fa0586v3d0e8c0380592b3e@mail.gmail.com>

Alright, look for answer as bottom post...  ;-)

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:17 PM, George (Skip) VerDuin
<verduin at ameritech.net> wrote:
> I'm sorry Tim, neither...
>
>
>  On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 22:41 -0400, Tim wrote:
>  > > The server itself is on it's way to recycling, but could be diverted in
>  > > the next few days if it found a new home.  It includes a 16-port RS-232
>  > > interface that I have tried for years to find use for without joy.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > Is that rs232 card PCI or ISA.
>  It's the EISA bus interface -- very(?) rare today.
>  But then so is the Dell server...
>
>
>  >  I've been looking for one of those for
>  > while to control a set of servers without needing to mess with a kvm.
>  >
>  > Tim
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > grlug mailing list
>  > grlug at grlug.org
>  > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>
> Warmest regards from here,
>  George
>

Yeah, I "recently" setup HylaFAX at work on some heavy iron - only
'cause I had nothing else to do with the box [dual 1Ghz cpu, 4gb ram,
6-disk 10k rpm raid, etc].  Like I said, heavy iron tough seriously
overkill.

Anyhoot, the email-to-fax gateway link previously posted was helpful
indeed.  There are two options I found.  Since OpenVMS couldn't work
with my first choice (send email to godwin at 5551212 and have the mail
server forward it to the fax server), I had to go with my second
choice (send email to 5551212 at fax.myintranet.lan and have the mail
server redirect it to the fax server based on the domain).

You can even route incoming faxes based on the sender's StationID,
convert to/from tiff/pdf and use a [gulp] Windows client to print/fax
from that other OS.  The most time consuming part of the whole thing?
Compiling drivers for those damn HSF, HCF and winmodems.  All junk!!!
I picked up a older, yet still shrink wrapped external modem, dug up
another old external modem from the junk pile and setup a dual-modem
server (one for incoming and the obvious other).

By the way, as I found out, just because you compile some drivers and
your modem works with "minicom" doesn't mean HylaFAX will like it.
It's somewhat finicky with what the device name "/dev/ttySOMEDEV" has
to be.  I couldn't get it to talk to funky device names with "_"
underscores in them.  Stick to external modems.  You can pick them up
for a song and a whistle at Comp Renew.  I whistled "Livin' La Vida
Loca" for mine.  ;-)

G-



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Tue May 13 06:45:16 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 06:45:16 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10805122059o61fa0586v3d0e8c0380592b3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210633410.20245.180.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
	<4828FFED.5090105@izzyig.com>
	<1210648638.16001.6.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
	<8b72b8d10805122059o61fa0586v3d0e8c0380592b3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210675516.5574.18.camel@aleph>

> from that other OS.  The most time consuming part of the whole thing?
> Compiling drivers for those damn HSF, HCF and winmodems.  All junk!!!

Yikes!

> I picked up a older, yet still shrink wrapped external modem, dug up
> another old external modem from the junk pile and setup a dual-modem
> server (one for incoming and the obvious other).

"Real" modems can still be purchased from companies like Multitech.

> By the way, as I found out, just because you compile some drivers and
> your modem works with "minicom" doesn't mean HylaFAX will like it

Yes.  For faxing there are multiple "classes" (1.0, 2, 2.0) which
provide different levels of functionality [doing more-or-less in
software-vs-hardware].  Also the quality of implementation varies.

> underscores in them.  Stick to external modems.  You can pick them up
> for a song and a whistle at Comp Renew.  I whistled "Livin' La Vida
> Loca" for mine.  ;-)

Agree.  If you aren't using a multi-port board designed for faxing then
use external models so you can 'reboot' them without bothering the
server.  See
<http://www.hylafax.org/content/Hardware_Compatibility_List> for
hardware compatibility - and if you want a trouble free life STICK TO IT
(avoiding the softmodem part).  These days the Mainpipe IQ express
multi-port boards seem to be the premier solution and are certainly what
I would buy if I were building a server today.   You can get the
Multitech ISI boards cheap **BUT** the driver only works in the 2.4.x
kernels.


From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Tue May 13 07:02:28 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 07:02:28 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fax server
In-Reply-To: <1210675516.5574.18.camel@aleph>
References: <d9ee72200805121340j424ebb9kf5705ae259c576e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210633410.20245.180.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
	<4828FFED.5090105@izzyig.com>
	<1210648638.16001.6.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
	<8b72b8d10805122059o61fa0586v3d0e8c0380592b3e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210675516.5574.18.camel@aleph>
Message-ID: <1210676548.5574.20.camel@aleph>

> Agree.  If you aren't using a multi-port board designed for faxing then
> use external models so you can 'reboot' them without bothering the
> server.  See
> <http://www.hylafax.org/content/Hardware_Compatibility_List> for
> hardware compatibility - and if you want a trouble free life STICK TO IT
> (avoiding the softmodem part).  These days the Mainpipe IQ express
> multi-port boards seem to be the premier solution and are certainly what
> I would buy if I were building a server today.   You can get the
> Multitech ISI boards cheap **BUT** the driver only works in the 2.4.x
> kernels.

BTW,  I have an older presentation on HylaFAX on my website
<http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com/node/154>
-- 
          Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client.
 Contact:awilliam at whitemiceconsulting.com   http://freshmeat.net/projects/consonance/


From cdubois at n-vint.com  Tue May 13 15:43:23 2008
From: cdubois at n-vint.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:43:23 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo Laptop 2.0GHz
 with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
Message-ID: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>

This is the FIRST time I've ever seen an IBM Loaded and Licensed with SUSE Linux Enterprise Version 10.

I was thinking about getting one but wanted to ask the list for input.

Is anyone else running SUSE 10 on a notebook?
Have you had any issues?

Sincerely,
Casey M. DuBois
N-VINT, Inc.
3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316
616-656-5500 Office
866-337-2686 Direct
AOL IM: CaseyNVINT
cdubois at n-vint.com<mailto:cdubois at n-vint.com>

"Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems."
- Linus Torvalds

________________________________
From: Sales At Underground [mailto:sales at undcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 11:58 AM
To: Casey DuBois
Subject: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo Laptop 2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen

[http://www.undcom.com/mailimages/ucilogo2.jpg]<http://www.undcom.com>

This email is sent to cdubois at n-vint.com. If for some reason you no longer wish to receive these messages please follow removal instructions at end of email.

NEW IBM Lenovo Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo T7250 2.0GHz, 1.02GB RAM, and WWAN - Only $849

These Notebooks Are In Stock - Order Yours Today!
NEW IBM Lenovo ThinkPad T61 Core 2 Duo T7250 2.0GHz w/ 1.02GB RAM, WIFI and WWAN - ONLY $849

 *   Core 2 Duo T7250 2.0GHz
 *   14.1" WXGA (1280x800) TFT
 *   800MHz Front Side Bus
 *   Intel X3100 Video Card
 *   1.02GB RAM
 *   80.0 Gig 5400rpm HDD
 *   DVD-R MultiBurner Optical
 *   Internal 56k Modem
 *   Gigabit Ethernet
 *   802.11abg Wireless
 *   Wireless Wide Area Network
 *   Touchpad + Trackpoint = UltraNav Pointing Device
 *   Secure Chip (TCPA)
 *   Fingerprint Reader
 *   4 Cell Battery
 *   Fully Refurbished by IBM, Loaded and Licensed with SUSE Linux Enterprise Version 10
 *   *****1 Year Warranty*****
Price: $849.00/Per SKU 3011
IBM Part Number: 7658CTO
Qty: 10 In Stock

[http://www.undcom.com/images/prodimages/large/t60.jpg]



Your Sales Representative Information:
Josh Parks
Sales and Marketing
Your Notebook Specialist Since 1989
Underground Computers, Inc.
1739 28th Street SW
Wyoming, MI 49519 USA
Phone: (616) 249-2961
Fax: (616) 249-3555
www.undcom.com<http://www.undcom.com/>
www.wolfpackatv.com<http://www.wolfpackatv.com/>
AIM: JoshAtUCI

You can login here [http://www.undcom.com/mailimages/login.jpg] <https://undcom.com/login.php> or set up an account by following this link [http://www.undcom.com/mailimages/signup.jpg] <https://undcom.com/create_account.php>


You received this e-mail because you signed up to receive UCI product listings.
To unsubscribe from this list visit this link<http://mailer.undcom.com?p=unsubscribe&uid=c33823eefadd11ec3f01a011703a2824>
To update your preferences visit this link<http://mailer.undcom.com?p=preferences&uid=c33823eefadd11ec3f01a011703a2824>

powered by phplist<http://www.phplist.com> v 2.10.2, (c) tincan ltd<http://tincan.co.uk/powered>

________________________________
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential information that is protected under state and/or federal law. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender by fax or email and delete this message. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and we shall not be responsible or liable for the proper and complete transmission of the information contained in this e-mail, any delay in its receipt or damage to your systems. We do not guarantee that the integrity of this e-mail has been maintained or that this e-mail is free of viruses, interception or interference. If you properly received this message, you may use its contents only in strict accordance with our instructions, please do not disseminate without permission of the author. If any person makes a false or misleading representation to obtain customer information, that person may have committed a federal crime, and we may report that person to the proper authorities.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080513/498645a9/attachment-0001.htm 

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Tue May 13 15:48:24 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:48:24 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo
	Laptop	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <1210708104.4753.12.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>


On Tue, 2008-05-13 at 15:43 -0400, Casey DuBois wrote:
> This is the FIRST time I?ve ever seen an IBM Loaded and Licensed with
> SUSE Linux Enterprise Version 10.
> I was thinking about getting one but wanted to ask the list for
> input. 
> Is anyone else running SUSE 10 on a notebook?

Is it SLES or SLED?  SLES I think would stink as a desktop/notebook.
Last time I tried SLED (in a VM) it was quite nice although it provided
fewer packages than openSUSE,  which is to be expected I suppose.

> Have you had any issues?




From slestak989 at gmail.com  Tue May 13 15:50:30 2008
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:50:30 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo Laptop
	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <ef8ba6540805131250n10074867g900cc923277ecfc3@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Casey DuBois <cdubois at n-vint.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> This is the FIRST time I've ever seen an IBM Loaded and Licensed with SUSE
> Linux Enterprise Version 10.
>
>
>
> I was thinking about getting one but wanted to ask the list for input.
>
>
>
> Is anyone else running SUSE 10 on a notebook?
>
> Have you had any issues?
>
>

I haven't used SUSE, but I do have RHEL inhouse, and one thing that
may be a consideration is apps available in the repo.  There may not
be a lot of home stuff available in an easy to install form.  i.e. for
my rhel5 server, noone is buildign rpm's of open office.  So if I
wanted to put that on the machine, its not as easy as using yum.

It may be easier than I am making it, but just a thought.

From casey at grlug.org  Tue May 13 15:53:21 2008
From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:53:21 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo Laptop
	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <ef8ba6540805131250n10074867g900cc923277ecfc3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<ef8ba6540805131250n10074867g900cc923277ecfc3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0ffba670805131253p2a4d98bfkf1fbf190377c8f58@mail.gmail.com>

> >
>
> I haven't used SUSE, but I do have RHEL inhouse, and one thing that
> may be a consideration is apps available in the repo.  There may not
> be a lot of home stuff available in an easy to install form.  i.e. for
> my rhel5 server, noone is buildign rpm's of open office.  So if I
> wanted to put that on the machine, its not as easy as using yum.
>
> It may be easier than I am making it, but just a thought.
>


The other issue is wether it will play well in my work environment (Windows).

Casey

From networkman at triton.net  Tue May 13 18:26:59 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (Rich Nagel)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 18:26:59 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo Laptop
	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <A44705BEDF9042F391FE409F796B2514@kdl.net>

Not on a notebook, but I do have SUSE Enterprise 10 running on a Dell Optiplex GX620.  It was a breeze to install which is really saying something, since I'm the one that did the install! :)

Rich

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Casey DuBois 
  To: grlug at grlug.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 3:43 PM
  Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo Laptop 2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen


  This is the FIRST time I've ever seen an IBM Loaded and Licensed with SUSE Linux Enterprise Version 10.

   

  I was thinking about getting one but wanted to ask the list for input. 

   

  Is anyone else running SUSE 10 on a notebook?

  Have you had any issues?

   

  Sincerely,

  Casey M. DuBois

  N-VINT, Inc.

  3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316

  616-656-5500 Office

  866-337-2686 Direct

  AOL IM: CaseyNVINT

  cdubois at n-vint.com

   

  "Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems."

  - Linus Torvalds

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: Sales At Underground [mailto:sales at undcom.com] 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 11:58 AM
  To: Casey DuBois
  Subject: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo Laptop 2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen

   



  This email is sent to cdubois at n-vint.com. If for some reason you no longer wish to receive these messages please follow removal instructions at end of email. 

  NEW IBM Lenovo Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo T7250 2.0GHz, 1.02GB RAM, and WWAN - Only $849 

  These Notebooks Are In Stock - Order Yours Today! 

              NEW IBM Lenovo ThinkPad T61 Core 2 Duo T7250 2.0GHz w/ 1.02GB RAM, WIFI and WWAN - ONLY $849

                a.. Core 2 Duo T7250 2.0GHz 
                b.. 14.1" WXGA (1280x800) TFT 
                c.. 800MHz Front Side Bus 
                d.. Intel X3100 Video Card 
                e.. 1.02GB RAM 
                f.. 80.0 Gig 5400rpm HDD 
                g.. DVD-R MultiBurner Optical 
                h.. Internal 56k Modem 
                i.. Gigabit Ethernet 
                j.. 802.11abg Wireless 
                k.. Wireless Wide Area Network 
                l.. Touchpad + Trackpoint = UltraNav Pointing Device 
                m.. Secure Chip (TCPA) 
                n.. Fingerprint Reader 
                o.. 4 Cell Battery 
                p.. Fully Refurbished by IBM, Loaded and Licensed with SUSE Linux Enterprise Version 10 
                q.. *****1 Year Warranty***** 
              Price: $849.00/Per SKU 3011
              IBM Part Number: 7658CTO
              Qty: 10 In Stock
             
             

       

  Your Sales Representative Information:

  Josh Parks 
  Sales and Marketing 
  Your Notebook Specialist Since 1989 
  Underground Computers, Inc. 
  1739 28th Street SW 
  Wyoming, MI 49519 USA 
  Phone: (616) 249-2961 
  Fax: (616) 249-3555 
  www.undcom.com 
  www.wolfpackatv.com 
  AIM: JoshAtUCI 

  You can login here or set up an account by following this link 

   


  You received this e-mail because you signed up to receive UCI product listings.
  To unsubscribe from this list visit this link
  To update your preferences visit this link


  powered by phplist v 2.10.2, ? tincan ltd



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential information that is protected under state and/or federal law. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender by fax or email and delete this message. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and we shall not be responsible or liable for the proper and complete transmission of the information contained in this e-mail, any delay in its receipt or damage to your systems. We do not guarantee that the integrity of this e-mail has been maintained or that this e-mail is free of viruses, interception or interference. If you properly received this message, you may use its contents only in strict accordance with our instructions, please do not disseminate without permission of the author. If any person makes a false or misleading representation to obtain customer information, that person may have committed a federal crime, and we may report that person to the proper authorities.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  grlug mailing list
  grlug at grlug.org
  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080513/8a27d62a/attachment-0001.htm 

From darth_linux at ameritech.net  Tue May 13 21:37:39 2008
From: darth_linux at ameritech.net (eah)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 21:37:39 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <48285BEB.6020100@vargo.org>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<48285983.7020408@kkmfg.com> <48285BEB.6020100@vargo.org>
Message-ID: <200805132137.39947.darth_linux@ameritech.net>

On Monday 12 May 2008 11:02:03 am Rick Vargo wrote:
> What happened to this group? Whoever is moderating the list needs to
> start banning the whiners before the group falls apart.
>
> Rick
>

There's a moderator? 

eah


From darth_linux at ameritech.net  Tue May 13 21:38:34 2008
From: darth_linux at ameritech.net (eah)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 21:38:34 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Social norms
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805120855s7b48277dk29547993a454a822@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805110809g4659b375wece87c0d6b8d4e26@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805120845y62a51e0bl1b13e123953bd5c6@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805120855s7b48277dk29547993a454a822@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200805132138.35054.darth_linux@ameritech.net>

On Monday 12 May 2008 11:55:14 am Michael Mol wrote:
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> (language too).
> >
> > That's another flame-ware entirely.
>
> I'd much rather have an argument about Perl vs Ruby than another
> top-post/bottom-post argument.

yeah 'cause ruby sucks. 

rofl! 

eah

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Tue May 13 22:30:53 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:30:53 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo
	Laptop	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Tue, 2008-05-13 at 15:43 -0400, Casey DuBois wrote:
> This is the FIRST time I?ve ever seen an IBM Loaded and Licensed with
> SUSE Linux Enterprise Version 10. 
> 
> I was thinking about getting one but wanted to ask the list for
> input.  
> 
> Is anyone else running SUSE 10 on a notebook?
> 
> Have you had any issues? 
[SNIP]

Yeah, its SUSE... I'd put Debian on it. I have Debian on my T61

I have an "all Intel Chipset" 2.2GHz, 4GB RAM, 200GB disk, 15.4"
widescreen (1680x1050), WWAN WiFi, DVD-R, FireWire, USB 2.0,
10/100/1000, PCMCIA, Express Card, SD-MMC card reader, Firewire

I've got nothing but great things to say about Linux on it. In fact, my
only problem is the Kernel... and the ACPI thing. They gone and changed
the interface again  making me keep a battery in the machine to get more
than 1200MHz in speed from it.

Other than that. Its all good.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080513/5e13020f/attachment.pgp 

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Wed May 14 06:54:58 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 06:54:58 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2
 Duo	Laptop	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>


> Yeah, its SUSE... I'd put Debian on it. I have Debian on my T61
>
>   
I just heard about how Debian's propensity to modify every package has 
come back to bite them (with OpenSSL I believe.) Is it really safe to 
trust them any longer?

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Wed May 14 08:13:36 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 08:13:36 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo Laptop
	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805140513g20bd4162q48b3d9568e30e341@mail.gmail.com>

 Is it really safe to trust them any longer?
I would recommend you to play with it then you will find answer
without ask us, we might give you wrong answer

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 6:54 AM, Collin <adderd at kkmfg.com> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, its SUSE... I'd put Debian on it. I have Debian on my T61
> >
> >
> I just heard about how Debian's propensity to modify every package has
> come back to bite them (with OpenSSL I believe.) Is it really safe to
> trust them any longer?
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Wed May 14 08:41:11 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 08:41:11 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] [LAST DAY REMIND] GRLUG Meeting Thursday May 15th - CUPS &
	gOS
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805140541v5a32ce4fg3e33bb59c2766760@mail.gmail.com>

Hello ALL,

GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) May Meeting

Food will be provided so please RSVP to casey at grlug.org so I can make
sure to have enough.

Date and Time:
Thursday May 15th
6:00 PM - 8:00 PM (food will be ready @ 6:00)

Location:
N-Vint, Inc., 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industrial+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.765625&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr&om=1

Presentation: Enterprise Printing via CUPS "Implementing CUPS and
using cups from Windows, Linux, HPUX and AIX"
Additional Topics:
gOS
USB Linux
Open source vs Closed source for Linux

See you soon,
Casey DuBois
Professor Inuyasha

From justin.denick at gmail.com  Wed May 14 08:55:18 2008
From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 08:55:18 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
Message-ID: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>

We should really think seriously about list moderation. I don't who is
maintaining this server anymore,
but perhaps they might adjust the spam settings to discard any message
containing certain buzz words like
"top posting". We may even extend that to include messages that only
serve to discredit our lists' reputation and inflame
our attitudes. The moderator may then choose to suspend the
individuals' grlug account for a week or so.


The constant discussion of RFC standards for electronic communication
has made me
wonder if we don't look more like the Email Police and less like Linux
enthusiasts! Imagine what a prospective
employer or recruitment firm thinks when reading our threads. I know
they've read our posts, I've had them
mentioned to me by a respected staffing firm.

Cheers,

Justin

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Wed May 14 09:23:48 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 09:23:48 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805140623r546037edq6340fc757e97524@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:55 AM, Justin Denick <justin.denick at gmail.com> wrote:
> We should really think seriously about list moderation.

I assume that's your way of volunteering...  or do you want others to
do the work?

>  I don't who is maintaining this server anymore,
>  but perhaps they might adjust the spam settings to discard any
>  message containing certain buzz words like "top posting".

You just tripped the filter yourself.  This topic was dead (or so I
thought) until you dredged it back up.

>  We may even extend that to include messages that only
>  serve to discredit our lists' reputation and inflame
>  our attitudes.

Ah, yes.  Let's ban everything controversial, and burn some books
while we're at it.

>  The moderator may then choose to suspend the individuals' grlug
>  account for a week or so.

IMHO, this sort of treatment should be reserved for spammers.  Normal
discussion is quite well regulated by communal consensus.

>  The constant discussion of RFC standards for electronic
>  communication

huh?

>  has made me  wonder if we don't look more like the Email Police
>  and less like Linux enthusiasts!

I don't particularly care what you or I look like...  Looks rarely
impart information of substance.

>  Imagine what a prospective employer or recruitment firm thinks
>  when reading our threads. I know they've read our posts, I've had
>  them mentioned to me by a respected staffing firm.

Are you implying that the words of individuals you may not have ever
met, may share nothing in common with (save membership to a diverse
mailing list), have never worked with, and have no other associations,
might influence your job prospects?

Ridiculous.

Your own actions, here, or anywhere else, are an employer's concern.
How you handle yourself when the things around you go to shit.

Were I an employer, I'd have liked to see you lead by example, and
attempt to reinforce and buttress upon existing community values.
That's how successful [community] management is done.  Instead, you
looked for someone else (a moderator, an objectionable content filter)
to fix your problems for you.  I'd be much more worried about what
_that_ says to a prospective employer than anything coming from my
email address.

--tim

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed May 14 09:37:41 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 09:37:41 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2
	Duo	Laptop	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <20080514133741.GA30239@jrichards.org>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 06:54:58AM -0400, Collin wrote:
> 
> > Yeah, its SUSE... I'd put Debian on it. I have Debian on my T61
> >
> >   
> I just heard about how Debian's propensity to modify every package has 
> come back to bite them (with OpenSSL I believe.) Is it really safe to 
> trust them any longer?

Debian has been doing this for *years*.  Back in the XFree86 days the
Debian developers applied over 100,000 lines of code to the XFree
codebase to "debianize" it.  (I do not know if they make that many
changes to Xorg.)  Debian is, however, very quick to issue bug fixes
when problems arise (such as with OpenSSL).  I remember some bug fixes
being available in Debian *STABLE* less than an hour after the bug
became public (security bug, that is).  All in all, Debian Stable is a
very secure, very stable operating system, even with the very rare
security bug introduced by their changes.  I do not think this instance
reveals Debian to be any less secure than it has been for the past
decade.
-- 
john-thomas
------
The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees, in every
object, only the traits which favor that theory.
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Wed May 14 09:43:36 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 09:43:36 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo Laptop
	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <20080514133741.GA30239@jrichards.org>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com> <20080514133741.GA30239@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805140643y6fcd815cm7803e343ac09e0d@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 9:37 AM, john-thomas richards <jtr at jrichards.org> wrote:
>  Debian has been doing this for *years*.  Back in the XFree86 days the
>  Debian developers applied over 100,000 lines of code to the XFree
>  codebase to "debianize" it.

There's a reason Debian does so much work on XFree and X.org.  They're
the only ones who do absolutely any testing at all on architectures
other than x86.  If you've ever used X on a ppc, sparc, mips, sh, or
any other non-x86 machine, you've Debian, and their massive patch
load, to thank.

>  I do not think this instance reveals Debian to be any less secure
>  than it has been for the past decade.

I'd tend to agree.

--tim

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed May 14 10:11:54 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 10:11:54 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080514141154.GB30239@jrichards.org>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 08:55:18AM -0400, Justin Denick wrote:
> We should really think seriously about list moderation. I don't who is
> maintaining this server anymore,
> but perhaps they might adjust the spam settings to discard any message
> containing certain buzz words like
> "top posting". We may even extend that to include messages that only
> serve to discredit our lists' reputation and inflame
> our attitudes. The moderator may then choose to suspend the
> individuals' grlug account for a week or so.
> 
> The constant discussion of RFC standards for electronic communication
> has made me
> wonder if we don't look more like the Email Police and less like Linux
> enthusiasts! Imagine what a prospective
> employer or recruitment firm thinks when reading our threads. I know
> they've read our posts, I've had them
> mentioned to me by a respected staffing firm.

I thought this issue was dead.  I find it ironic that said "constant
discussion of RFC standards" was started by a confessed newbie who idly
wondered why many on the list prefer to B077om p0$t (so this gets by the
"filter" ;-).  It was a very insightful question born of astute
observation.  My answer in response was brief and respectful and pointed
the questioner to a fuller answer elsewhere on line (so as to not get
into the subsequent discussion).  Those who have complained the loudest
about this issue have yet to offer a legitimate reason to alter what
has been the accepted standard for *decades*.  I find it interesting
that those who side with the long-accepted standard are the ones being
chided as rabble-rousers while those who violate this standard are held
up as champions of freedom.  "How dare you violate my freedom to smoke
by asking me to not blow smoke in your face!"

I have been a part of the GRLUG mailing list since 2001.  I have seen a
number of people come and go.  I remember people like Ann (do we have
any women on here anymore?) and Jim and Van.  The discussions on this
list are often helpful and educational.  Part of the education needs to
be how best to communicate.  Over the years (I have ~12,000 messages in
my GRLUG mbox) we have had the discussion of proper posting and
formatting of messages a number of times.  Some choose to post very
narrow columns of text.  Some choose to post in HTML with CSS. Some
choose to post one long run-on line that does not wrap properly.
These things prompt discussion.  I have yet to see a comment akin to
"you post in HTML, therefore I hate you; go away."  A discussion may
devolve into that but rarely has it done so.  These discussions will
continue to take place, and need to take place from time to time.  If
the GRLUG is going to implement a policy of censoring specific topics
then ban me now.  I have no interest in stirring up dissension.  I do
not wish to be adversarial.  My interest is in better communication.
Several have pointed out the advantages of bottom posting.  Decades of
online communication, be it mailing lists or USENET, have confirmed
that it is the best method of attribution and ongoing dialogue.  The
response to decades of affirmation has been "it's easier for me to
top-post" or "I prefer top-posting."  Contrast that to "it's easier for
*everyone else* when you bottom-post."

What I am really getting at is if this list has gotten to the point
where we will ban users for discussing the technical aspects of
communication on this list, I am not sure I want to be a part of it
anymore.  I love the GRLUG.  If the meetings were not on Thursday
evenings (I lead a Bible study every Thursday night so I am not
available) I would attend.  I try to take part in the discussions on
this list and help where I can.  I have come to deeply respect the
technical expertise of many on this list, even those I find a bit
irritating from time to time.  There is a wealth of knowledge and talent
on this list.  If we resort to banning participants because they wish to
attempt to self-regulate our communication, then I am greatly saddened.
There is an old proverb that says, "Iron sharpens iron, and one man
sharpens another."  I would like to point out that iron only sharpens
iron with friction.
-- 
john-thomas
------
Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.
Thomas Henry Huxley, biologist (1825-1895)

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Wed May 14 10:22:31 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 10:22:31 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <20080514141154.GB30239@jrichards.org>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080514141154.GB30239@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805140722o24fa0d1ar638a088f22dd3fcc@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 10:11 AM, john-thomas richards
<jtr at jrichards.org> wrote:
>  What I am really getting at is if this list has gotten to the point
>  where we will ban users for discussing the technical aspects of
>  communication on this list, I am not sure I want to be a part of it
>  anymore.  I love the GRLUG.

I'd just like to say I agree (with every point in your message), and
thank you for your past activity and current leadership.

--tim

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Wed May 14 10:42:20 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 10:42:20 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core
	2	Duo	Laptop	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <1210776140.32373.2.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 06:54 -0400, Collin wrote:
> > Yeah, its SUSE... I'd put Debian on it. I have Debian on my T61
> >
> >   
> I just heard about how Debian's propensity to modify every package has 
> come back to bite them (with OpenSSL I believe.) Is it really safe to 
> trust them any longer?

I just heard about Microsoft's criminal convictions in 15+ International
Countries.

Is it really safe to trust them any longer?


BTW, *EVERY* distribution modifies packages locally.

BTW, Collin stop being a mule's butt.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080514/4fb06094/attachment.pgp 

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Wed May 14 10:44:52 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 10:44:52 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210776292.32373.5.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 08:55 -0400, Justin Denick wrote:
> We should really think seriously about list moderation. I don't who is
> maintaining this server anymore,
> but perhaps they might adjust the spam settings to discard any message
> containing certain buzz words like
> "top posting". We may even extend that to include messages that only
> serve to discredit our lists' reputation and inflame
> our attitudes. The moderator may then choose to suspend the
> individuals' grlug account for a week or so.
> 
> 
> The constant discussion of RFC standards for electronic communication
> has made me
> wonder if we don't look more like the Email Police and less like Linux
> enthusiasts! Imagine what a prospective
> employer or recruitment firm thinks when reading our threads. I know
> they've read our posts, I've had them
> mentioned to me by a respected staffing firm.

If you want to suspend someone's account I heartily suggest they start
with yours then.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080514/e67a6b70/attachment.pgp 

From casey at grlug.org  Wed May 14 10:46:17 2008
From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 10:46:17 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo Laptop
	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <1210776140.32373.2.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
	<1210776140.32373.2.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <f0ffba670805140746s166bc49ao58e4db78a4069e96@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I just heard about Microsoft's criminal convictions in 15+ International
> Countries.
>
> Is it really safe to trust them any longer?
>


How about a link to this one????

Casey

From justin.denick at gmail.com  Wed May 14 10:48:19 2008
From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 10:48:19 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0805140623r546037edq6340fc757e97524@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805140623r546037edq6340fc757e97524@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <81e08d920805140748x6c596a07mf84fed178381d041@mail.gmail.com>

With the highest level of due respect, I commend the efforts of the
Grand Rapids Linux Users Group.

Many of you, like myself, joined this list to learn more about using
Linux at home or at work. The list
enabled us to get the support we needed without having to RTFM and if
we felt ambitious we could
post something that helped us so that someone else benefit from it

<flame>
Then you do actually post something and some geek with a keyboard,
finds fault with your logic. He posts
his drivel and you get pissed cause he thinks he has some authority
cause his buddies started the GRLUG.
Sweet, keep it. I like BASH, I have no problem RTFM, and debian is for
sissies who can't configure a kernel.
No need to suspend this account Mr. Folkert, my name is tado and I'm
out dis her biatch. Word.
.</flame>

GRLugers, I'm sure you're not jerks and I'm sure you all have mad
super human computer skillz and that your
list manners are just swell. But dude.


On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:55 AM, Justin Denick <justin.denick at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > We should really think seriously about list moderation.
>
>  I assume that's your way of volunteering...  or do you want others to
>  do the work?
>
>
>  >  I don't who is maintaining this server anymore,
>  >  but perhaps they might adjust the spam settings to discard any
>  >  message containing certain buzz words like "top posting".
>
>  You just tripped the filter yourself.  This topic was dead (or so I
>  thought) until you dredged it back up.
>
>
>  >  We may even extend that to include messages that only
>  >  serve to discredit our lists' reputation and inflame
>  >  our attitudes.
>
>  Ah, yes.  Let's ban everything controversial, and burn some books
>  while we're at it.
>
>
>  >  The moderator may then choose to suspend the individuals' grlug
>  >  account for a week or so.
>
>  IMHO, this sort of treatment should be reserved for spammers.  Normal
>  discussion is quite well regulated by communal consensus.
>
>
>  >  The constant discussion of RFC standards for electronic
>  >  communication
>
>  huh?
>
>
>  >  has made me  wonder if we don't look more like the Email Police
>  >  and less like Linux enthusiasts!
>
>  I don't particularly care what you or I look like...  Looks rarely
>  impart information of substance.
>
>
>  >  Imagine what a prospective employer or recruitment firm thinks
>  >  when reading our threads. I know they've read our posts, I've had
>  >  them mentioned to me by a respected staffing firm.
>
>  Are you implying that the words of individuals you may not have ever
>  met, may share nothing in common with (save membership to a diverse
>  mailing list), have never worked with, and have no other associations,
>  might influence your job prospects?
>
>  Ridiculous.
>
>  Your own actions, here, or anywhere else, are an employer's concern.
>  How you handle yourself when the things around you go to shit.
>
>  Were I an employer, I'd have liked to see you lead by example, and
>  attempt to reinforce and buttress upon existing community values.
>  That's how successful [community] management is done.  Instead, you
>  looked for someone else (a moderator, an objectionable content filter)
>  to fix your problems for you.  I'd be much more worried about what
>  _that_ says to a prospective employer than anything coming from my
>  email address.
>
>  --tim
>  _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
In vino veritas.
 [In wine there is truth.]
 -- Pliny

From networkman at triton.net  Wed May 14 10:50:56 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (networkman at triton.net)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 10:50:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo Laptop
 2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <f0ffba670805140746s166bc49ao58e4db78a4069e96@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
	<1210776140.32373.2.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<f0ffba670805140746s166bc49ao58e4db78a4069e96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1100.69.11.205.103.1210776656.squirrel@remotemail.triton.net>

I can't speak to "criminal convictions", although the flap over the
Windows Media Player in the EU some years back rings a bell:

http://www.icmrindia.org/casestudies/catalogue/International%20Business%20Environment/CLIBE043.htm

Rich

>>
>> I just heard about Microsoft's criminal convictions in 15+ International
>> Countries.
>>
>> Is it really safe to trust them any longer?
>>
>
>
> How about a link to this one????
>
> Casey
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>



From mikemol at gmail.com  Wed May 14 11:17:42 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:17:42 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805140817m5a1e0d45h6bb5f4da1245bb44@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:55 AM, Justin Denick <justin.denick at gmail.com> wrote:
> We should really think seriously about list moderation. I don't who is
>  maintaining this server anymore,
>  but perhaps they might adjust the spam settings to discard any message
>  containing certain buzz words like
>  "top posting". We may even extend that to include messages that only
>  serve to discredit our lists' reputation and inflame
>  our attitudes. The moderator may then choose to suspend the
>  individuals' grlug account for a week or so.

The people on this list aren't children.  We don't need parenting.
And this list can't be everyone's personal heaven; Part of life is
dealing with people and topics that irritate you.

Yes, there are (at least two) people on the list who are the first
individuals to bring up hot-button topics that cause conflict. Yes,
there are several more who see that the topic's been raised, and then
dive in themselves.  But aside from the propensity for flaming, these
folks all have useful perspectives on Linux, or at least want to know
something about it.  Why else would they be on the GRLUG mailing list?

I don't want to see a list moderator; GRLUG is nobody's baby (except
perhaps Casey and Godwin), and nobody on the list has more of a right
to decide what a list member can say than anyone else.

Finally, I don't want to see people suspended for participating in
high-traffic or presumably off-topic threads; Had we had something
like that, there wouldn't have been many people left to answer my
question about 64-bit Linux last week.

My message to all the people that get up in arms over the hot-button
issues, and all the people that get up in arms about the hot-button
threads: Chill...I think we've already established that nobody's going
to win the argument.  At the very least, try not to be flagrantly
insulting about it.

Most of you guys are a lot older than me...Why do I feel like *I'm*
the one who has to come out and say this stuff?

-- 
:wq

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Wed May 14 11:28:05 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:28:05 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo
In-Reply-To: <482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <1210778885.5039.8.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> > Yeah, its SUSE... I'd put Debian on it. I have Debian on my T61
> I just heard about how Debian's propensity to modify every package has 
> come back to bite them (with OpenSSL I believe.) Is it really safe to 
> trust them any longer?

Was it ever?   I have no interest in distro-wars, people can use
whatever they like as far as I'm concerned.  But personally I
disregarded all things Debian from a production point-of-view a long
time ago.


From greg at gregfolkert.net  Wed May 14 11:35:23 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:35:23 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <81e08d920805140748x6c596a07mf84fed178381d041@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0805140623r546037edq6340fc757e97524@mail.gmail.com>
	<81e08d920805140748x6c596a07mf84fed178381d041@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210779323.32373.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 10:48 -0400, Justin Denick wrote:
[SNIP]
> <flame>
[SNIP]
> No need to suspend this account Mr. Folkert, my name is tado and I'm
> out dis her biatch. Word.
> .</flame>
> 
> GRLugers, I'm sure you're not jerks and I'm sure you all have mad
> super human computer skillz and that your
> list manners are just swell. But dude.

[SNIP]

W311 D3WD, I see you can't take your own medicine.

Nice job.

Saviour YEW R!

Suspend my account for a week at the exact time Justin's, its fine with
me.

You see, if you can't TAKE the punishment yourself...
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080514/9e5e770b/attachment.pgp 

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Wed May 14 11:43:35 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:43:35 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo
	Laptop	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <f0ffba670805140746s166bc49ao58e4db78a4069e96@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
	<1210776140.32373.2.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<f0ffba670805140746s166bc49ao58e4db78a4069e96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210779815.32373.20.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 10:46 -0400, Casey DuBois wrote:
> >
> > I just heard about Microsoft's criminal convictions in 15+ International
> > Countries.
> >
> > Is it really safe to trust them any longer?
> >
> 
> 
> How about a link to this one????

Over the years, Microsoft is and has shown to be a belligerent and
over-whelming company.

US: 1994 Sherman Act Violations
US: 2003 Sherman Act Violations
NZ, JP, EU (multiple countries in that conglomerate of countries), IN,
AU, etc... all similar laws to Sherman Act Violations.

There is also Microsoft and the whole ED CURRY thing about it claiming
C2-Redbook Certifications that NT never had on anything other than NT
v3.5sp3 on SPECIFIC HARDWARE in a SPECIFIC configuration.

Plus there are other convictions on Microsoft not following the
punishments from those other convictions... recently even its trying to
Appeal *ONLY* the punishment scale. That says something right?

Microsoft is a CONVICTED CRIMINAL CORPORATION. It continues to employ
the same tactics over and over and over again.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080514/d12c1a09/attachment-0001.pgp 

From erickson.adam.m at gmail.com  Wed May 14 11:44:25 2008
From: erickson.adam.m at gmail.com (Adam M. Erickson)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:44:25 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo Laptop
	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <7cd69fdf0805140844o6122ee7bjfb8e1050a412a74f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Casey DuBois <cdubois at n-vint.com> wrote:
> This is the FIRST time I've ever seen an IBM Loaded and Licensed with SUSE
> Linux Enterprise Version 10.
>
>
>
> I was thinking about getting one but wanted to ask the list for input.
>
>
>
> Is anyone else running SUSE 10 on a notebook?
>
> Have you had any issues?

Casey,

keep us updated on wither you end up getting it or not.

 I wasn't very impressed with openSUSE so I never chipped in the extra
money for SUSE (also I'm broke)

I agree with Greg F about using Debian instead. When I purchased HP
Pavilion last year I tried many free distributions and settled with
Ubuntu the only big I haven't bothered with is the built in WebCam.

Does SUSE have a good wireless manager so you can stay mobile?

-- 
Good Luck,

Adam M. Erickson
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton"

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Wed May 14 11:47:17 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:47:17 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo
In-Reply-To: <1210778885.5039.8.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
	<1210778885.5039.8.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <1210780037.32373.24.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 11:28 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > > Yeah, its SUSE... I'd put Debian on it. I have Debian on my T61
> > I just heard about how Debian's propensity to modify every package has 
> > come back to bite them (with OpenSSL I believe.) Is it really safe to 
> > trust them any longer?
> 
> Was it ever?   I have no interest in distro-wars, people can use
> whatever they like as far as I'm concerned.  But personally I
> disregarded all things Debian from a production point-of-view a long
> time ago.

So, exactly you know shouldn't be using Linux then. Debian *IS* the
source for many distribution package relating to authentication, fixes
to X, Kernel Enhancements, multiple MTAs being fixed, Apache using a
modular approach on configs... just to name a few.

Ignoring Debian, is like ignore the plague. (and yes I used that example
for a reason)
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080514/61c27e65/attachment.pgp 

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed May 14 11:51:26 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:51:26 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805140817m5a1e0d45h6bb5f4da1245bb44@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805140817m5a1e0d45h6bb5f4da1245bb44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080514155125.GB2883@jrichards.org>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 11:17:42AM -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
[snip]
> Most of you guys are a lot older than me...Why do I feel like *I'm*
> the one who has to come out and say this stuff?

Master Mol guide us.
Master Mol teach us.
Master Mol protect us.
In your light we thrive.
In your mercy we are sheltered.
In your wisdom we are humbled.
We live to serve.
Our lives are yours.

Just keep the Mord-Sith and Emperor Jagang away from us.

:-)
-- 
john-thomas
------
A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a
sign of weakness and malady.
Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed May 14 11:43:32 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:43:32 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo
In-Reply-To: <1210778885.5039.8.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
	<1210778885.5039.8.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <20080514154332.GA2883@jrichards.org>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 11:28:05AM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > > Yeah, its SUSE... I'd put Debian on it. I have Debian on my T61
> > I just heard about how Debian's propensity to modify every package has 
> > come back to bite them (with OpenSSL I believe.) Is it really safe to 
> > trust them any longer?
> 
> Was it ever?   I have no interest in distro-wars, people can use
> whatever they like as far as I'm concerned.  But personally I
> disregarded all things Debian from a production point-of-view a long
> time ago.

Why have you disregarded Debian?
-- 
john-thomas
------
The fetters imposed on liberty at home have ever been forged out of the
weapons provided for defence against real, pretended, or imaginary dangers
from abroad.
James Madison, 4th US president (1751-1836)

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Wed May 14 11:57:45 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:57:45 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61
 Core	2	Duo	Laptop	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <1210776140.32373.2.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
	<1210776140.32373.2.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <482B0BF9.50300@kkmfg.com>

  

>> I just heard about how Debian's propensity to modify every package has 
>> come back to bite them (with OpenSSL I believe.) Is it really safe to 
>> trust them any longer?
>>     
>
> I just heard about Microsoft's criminal convictions in 15+ International
> Countries.
>
> Is it really safe to trust them any longer?
>   
Who ever did? I wouldn't be using windows right now if I could help it. 
But, unfortunately a lot of business software tends to be windows only.

>
> BTW, *EVERY* distribution modifies packages locally.
>   
To some extent but how many modify so many packages so often? Also, the 
openssl vulnerability is pretty major and has been there for over a 
year. That's a pretty serious problem.  It's especially serious given 
these two facts: 1. There seems to have been no good reason to be 
touching that code 2: Now that they did any private keys generated on a 
Debian derivative in the past year are now as good as compromised and 
have to be replaced.

> BTW, Collin stop being a mule's butt.
>   
I still stand by my views on top posting and I still think that my 
current question is valid. The replies I've gotten tend to suggest that 
while Debian really screwed up badly with the openssl ordeal, that they 
still do much more good than harm. This is comforting to know.
 
The question: Is X linux distributor trustworthy if their maintainers 
remove security features from a really important package?

Is that really that bad of a question or are you just that grumpy?

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed May 14 12:10:21 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 12:10:21 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61
	Core	2	Duo	Laptop	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <482B0BF9.50300@kkmfg.com>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
	<1210776140.32373.2.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482B0BF9.50300@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <20080514161021.GA3258@jrichards.org>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 11:57:45AM -0400, Collin wrote:
[snip]
> I still think that my 
> current question is valid. The replies I've gotten tend to suggest that 
> while Debian really screwed up badly with the openssl ordeal, that they 
> still do much more good than harm. This is comforting to know.
>  
> The question: Is X linux distributor trustworthy if their maintainers 
> remove security features from a really important package?

Debian did not remove security features.  A bug "fix" inadvertently
introduced a *huge* security risk.  Keep in mind, though, that this
admittedly big security problem was discovered in the code itself and
not in a remote exploit.  Upgrading the necessary packages (that were
available almost immediately) and reissuing keys are all that is
necessary to avoid a remote exploit.  Granted, some may have a lot of
keys to issue, but it is an inconvenience more than anything else.

[snip]
-- 
john-thomas
------
Fame is a vapor; popularity an accident; the only earthly certainty is
oblivion.
Mark Twain, author and humorist (1835-1910)

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Wed May 14 12:25:38 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 12:25:38 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad
 T61	Core	2	Duo	Laptop	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <20080514161021.GA3258@jrichards.org>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>	<1210776140.32373.2.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>	<482B0BF9.50300@kkmfg.com>
	<20080514161021.GA3258@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <482B1282.2050501@kkmfg.com>


> Debian did not remove security features.  A bug "fix" inadvertently
> introduced a *huge* security risk.  Keep in mind, though, that this
> admittedly big security problem was discovered in the code itself and
> not in a remote exploit.  Upgrading the necessary packages (that were
> available almost immediately) and reissuing keys are all that is
> necessary to avoid a remote exploit.  Granted, some may have a lot of
> keys to issue, but it is an inconvenience more than anything else.
>
> [snip]
>   
Semantics... If you introduce something and call it a "bug fix" but it 
really screws the security up then it wasn't really a bug fix, was it? 
And if that bug fix removes a security feature then it was a removal of 
a security feature, not a bug fix. Call things what they are not what it 
was wished it would be.

I will, however, grant you that I'm sure that they did it on accident 
and that the vast majority of the time they get it right. It just sounds 
like they've got to be more careful in the future.

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Wed May 14 12:37:21 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 12:37:21 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM
	Thinkpad	T61	Core	2	Duo	Laptop	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN,
	WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <482B1282.2050501@kkmfg.com>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
	<1210776140.32373.2.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482B0BF9.50300@kkmfg.com> <20080514161021.GA3258@jrichards.org>
	<482B1282.2050501@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <1210783041.32373.38.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 12:25 -0400, Collin wrote:
> > Debian did not remove security features.  A bug "fix" inadvertently
> > introduced a *huge* security risk.  Keep in mind, though, that this
> > admittedly big security problem was discovered in the code itself and
> > not in a remote exploit.  Upgrading the necessary packages (that were
> > available almost immediately) and reissuing keys are all that is
> > necessary to avoid a remote exploit.  Granted, some may have a lot of
> > keys to issue, but it is an inconvenience more than anything else.
> >
> > [snip]
> >   
> Semantics... If you introduce something and call it a "bug fix" but it 
> really screws the security up then it wasn't really a bug fix, was it? 
> And if that bug fix removes a security feature then it was a removal of 
> a security feature, not a bug fix. Call things what they are not what it 
> was wished it would be.
> 
> I will, however, grant you that I'm sure that they did it on accident 
> and that the vast majority of the time they get it right. It just sounds 
> like they've got to be more careful in the future.

Which is EXACTLY the response they have provided.

        It was a mistake, let's fix it, move on and be more careful
        about these things.

RedHat, Novell, Gentoo, Debian, Ubuntu... even FreeBSD (big time in
ports) all do these things in large scale amounts.

There were times in RedHat's history that they were the single largest
"fixer" of bugs that introduced many other bugs or security problems.

Its a good thing everyone didn't say "Should we even continue to use
them as they broke something"... some of the exploits they introduced...
some of them were so trivial to do that the ONLY thing safe was to
unplug the network connection.

What about the fact the OpenBSD now has *TWO* exploits that happened in
the default install at one time or another... should we drop that
particular OS for it BRAZEN security problems?

Come on... THINK.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080514/6fce362d/attachment.pgp 

From networkman at triton.net  Wed May 14 12:41:26 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (Rich Nagel)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 12:41:26 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG]  - Webmaster position available
Message-ID: <9CE3862464EB44A5A3900504A6B57B09@kdl.net>

Hey all,

Apologies in advance if I'm breaking a rule, covenant, taboo, norm or other social stigma, but I figured that especially in this economy, some might want to know of an open position in the IT field:

http://tbe.taleo.net/NA9/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=KDL&cws=1&rid=47

Again, sincerest apologies if this isn't the kind of post that people want to be seeing in the GRLUG list.

Rich
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080514/7d9574c3/attachment-0001.htm 

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed May 14 12:59:17 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 12:59:17 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad
	T61	Core	2	Duo	Laptop	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <482B1282.2050501@kkmfg.com>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<1210732253.29843.11.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482AC502.8000208@kkmfg.com>
	<1210776140.32373.2.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<482B0BF9.50300@kkmfg.com> <20080514161021.GA3258@jrichards.org>
	<482B1282.2050501@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <20080514165917.GB3258@jrichards.org>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 12:25:38PM -0400, Collin wrote:
> 
> > Debian did not remove security features.  A bug "fix" inadvertently
> > introduced a *huge* security risk.  Keep in mind, though, that this
> > admittedly big security problem was discovered in the code itself and
> > not in a remote exploit.  Upgrading the necessary packages (that were
> > available almost immediately) and reissuing keys are all that is
> > necessary to avoid a remote exploit.  Granted, some may have a lot of
> > keys to issue, but it is an inconvenience more than anything else.
> >
> > [snip]
> >   
> Semantics... If you introduce something and call it a "bug fix" but it 
> really screws the security up then it wasn't really a bug fix, was it? 
> And if that bug fix removes a security feature then it was a removal of 
> a security feature, not a bug fix. Call things what they are not what it 
> was wished it would be.

I was addressing the statement you made (which you did not include in your
reply) that Debian "removed security features."  They did not.  This is
not a issue of semantics.  "Removes" implies intent.  Bugs are
accidental (except in Samba :-).

> I will, however, grant you that I'm sure that they did it on accident 
> and that the vast majority of the time they get it right. It just sounds 
> like they've got to be more careful in the future.

That it was accidental is the main point (in counterpoint to your
statement) I was making.
-- 
john-thomas
------
If the gods listened to the prayers of men, all humankind would quickly
perish since they constantly pray for many evils to befall one another.
Epicurus, philosopher (c. 341-270 BCE)

From casey at grlug.org  Wed May 14 13:05:57 2008
From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 13:05:57 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Sometimes we need to take a step back
Message-ID: <f0ffba670805141005l7f2138aaxb6645b6de52a6911@mail.gmail.com>

A man came home from work late, tired and irritated, to find his
5-year old son waiting for him at the door.

SON : "Daddy, may I ask you a question?"

DAD: "Yeah sure, what is it?"

SON : "Daddy, how much do you make an hour?"

DAD: "That's none of your business. Why do you ask such a thing?"

SON : "I just want to know. Please tell me, how much do you make an hour?"

DAD: "If you must know, I make $100 an hour."

SON : "Oh! (with his head down).

SON : "Daddy, may I please borrow $50?"

The father was furious.

DAD: "If the only reason you asked that is so you can borrow some
money to buy a silly toy or some other nonsense, then you march
yourself straight to your room and go to bed. Think about why you are
being so selfish. I work hard everyday for such this childish
behavior."

The little boy quietly went to his room and shut the door. The man sat
down and started to get even angrier about the little boy's questions.
How dare he ask such questions only to get some money?

After about an hour or so, the man had calmed down, and started to
think: Maybe there was something he really needed to buy with that $
50 and he really didn't ask for money very often. The man went to the
door of the little boy's room and opened the door.

DAD: "Are you asleep, son?"

SON : "No daddy, I'm awake".

DAD: "I've been thinking, maybe I was too hard on you earlier. It's
been a long day and I took out my aggravation on you. Here's the $50
you asked for." The little boy sat straight up, smiling.

SON : "Oh, thank you daddy! "

Then, reaching under his pillow he pulled out some crumpled up bills.
The man saw that the boy already had money, started to get angry
again. The little boy slowly counted out his money, and then looked up
at his father.

DAD: "Why do you want more money if you already have some?"

SON : "Because I didn't have enough, but now I do.

"Daddy, I have $100 now. Can I buy an hour of your time?

Please come home early tomorrow. I would like to have dinner with you."

The father was crushed. He put his arms around his little son, and he
begged for his forgiveness.

It's just a short reminder to all of you working so hard in life. We
should not let time slip through our fingers without having spent some
time with those who really matter to us, those close to our hearts.

Do remember to share that $100 worth of your time with someone you love?

If we die tomorrow, the company that we are working for could easily
replace us in a matter of days.

But the family and friends we leave behind will feel the loss for the
rest of their lives. And come to think of it, we pour ourselves more
into work than to our family.

Regards,

Casey

From david at pembrook.net  Wed May 14 13:09:27 2008
From: david at pembrook.net (David Pembrook)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 13:09:27 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo Laptop
 2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <482B1CC7.2030500@pembrook.net>

Casey DuBois wrote:
>
> This is the FIRST time I?ve ever seen an IBM Loaded and Licensed with 
> SUSE Linux Enterprise Version 10.
>
> I was thinking about getting one but wanted to ask the list for input.
>
> Is anyone else running SUSE 10 on a notebook?
>
> Have you had any issues?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> /Casey M. DuBois/
>
> *N-VINT, Inc.*
>
> 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316
>
> 616-656-5500 Office
>
> *866-337-2686* Direct
>
> /AOL IM: *CaseyNVINT*/
>
> cdubois at n-vint.com <mailto:cdubois at n-vint.com>*//*
>

I pitched in once and bought 9.1 some time back. I've always found it to 
have a nice install routine and a very nice out of the box experience. 
For day to day professional use I think its a fine way to go. I only got 
in trouble with it when I wanted all the eye candy with more recent 
versions (10.x) and I'm sure others have had issues in their own area. 
Another downside though is it seems slower than a nice lightweight 
Debian desktop (I like speed). For (at least) the computer enthusiast 
there are a lot of other choices.

I wind up back to openSuse when I want a nice out of the box experience 
(install and go to work). I installed it on my 2 year old HP laptop and 
everything worked but the wireless. I have some reading to do on that. 
Other than my hardware issue, it installed clean along side Windows and 
runs great.

just my 2 cents.

Dave

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Wed May 14 13:36:34 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 13:36:34 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] FW: $849 - New IBM Thinkpad T61 Core 2 Duo
	Laptop	2.0GHz with DVD-R, WWAN, WiFi and Widescreen
In-Reply-To: <7cd69fdf0805140844o6122ee7bjfb8e1050a412a74f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B418223EE@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<7cd69fdf0805140844o6122ee7bjfb8e1050a412a74f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210786594.4779.8.camel@aleph>

> Does SUSE have a good wireless manager so you can stay mobile?

Yes, the wireless manager in openSUSE [don't know about SLED] works very
well for all the various kinds of WPA/WPA2/EAP wireless networks.


From flanderb at gmail.com  Wed May 14 15:41:29 2008
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 15:41:29 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Kernel panic?
Message-ID: <e8898d550805141241v3845b565le5a123e5435680c7@mail.gmail.com>

I didn't have time to check it out besides rebooting to make sure it
still can(it can), but my Kubuntu 8.04 desktop froze and the numlock
and scrolllock kept flashing.  This happened a lot in my Kubuntu KDE4
partition.  I just thought it was KDE 4, but this just happened in
Kubuntu KDE3 which is my main OS and has got me worried.

Doing a quick google search I think this might be kernel panic.  Is
there anyway to find out what happened?  Does linux log this stuff
somewhere before going down?




-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From mikemol at gmail.com  Wed May 14 15:47:34 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 15:47:34 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Kernel panic?
In-Reply-To: <e8898d550805141241v3845b565le5a123e5435680c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805141241v3845b565le5a123e5435680c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805141247j36c1eff0i1f86337bc1027eb3@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Benjamin Flanders <flanderb at gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't have time to check it out besides rebooting to make sure it
>  still can(it can), but my Kubuntu 8.04 desktop froze and the numlock
>  and scrolllock kept flashing.  This happened a lot in my Kubuntu KDE4
>  partition.  I just thought it was KDE 4, but this just happened in
>  Kubuntu KDE3 which is my main OS and has got me worried.
>
>  Doing a quick google search I think this might be kernel panic.  Is
>  there anyway to find out what happened?  Does linux log this stuff
>  somewhere before going down?

The kernel can log Oopses, but panics are a lot harder.

Your best bet is try booting without X running. (i.e. in single user
mode.).  Then, at least, you'll see what the error is.

It's also to get such errors logged to a printer, but I don't know if
Ubuntu has that support compiled into the kernel.

-- 
:wq

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Wed May 14 15:51:27 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 15:51:27 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Kernel panic?
In-Reply-To: <e8898d550805141241v3845b565le5a123e5435680c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805141241v3845b565le5a123e5435680c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210794687.32373.49.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:41 -0400, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> I didn't have time to check it out besides rebooting to make sure it
> still can(it can), but my Kubuntu 8.04 desktop froze and the numlock
> and scrolllock kept flashing.  This happened a lot in my Kubuntu KDE4
> partition.  I just thought it was KDE 4, but this just happened in
> Kubuntu KDE3 which is my main OS and has got me worried.
> 
> Doing a quick google search I think this might be kernel panic.  Is
> there anyway to find out what happened?  Does linux log this stuff
> somewhere before going down?

You have to have magic sys request enabled... or whatever its called
now.

There is: http://lkcd.sourceforge.net/

But I'm not sure that is what you want.

Perhaps:

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-magic.html

But you have to enable it. Also there is a nice Search IBM Docs URL on
that page:

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/search/searchResults.jsp?source=google&searchType=1&searchSite=dW&searchScope=dW&query=Linux+kernel+Panic+magic+key

Hope this helps.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080514/92c943f2/attachment.pgp 

From erickson.adam.m at gmail.com  Wed May 14 15:59:03 2008
From: erickson.adam.m at gmail.com (Adam M. Erickson)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 15:59:03 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Kernel panic?
In-Reply-To: <1210794687.32373.49.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <e8898d550805141241v3845b565le5a123e5435680c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210794687.32373.49.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <7cd69fdf0805141259m6ce373c0yd4027ea879400ff@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Greg Folkert <greg at gregfolkert.net> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:41 -0400, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
>> I didn't have time to check it out besides rebooting to make sure it
>> still can(it can), but my Kubuntu 8.04 desktop froze and the numlock
>> and scrolllock kept flashing.  This happened a lot in my Kubuntu KDE4
>> partition.  I just thought it was KDE 4, but this just happened in
>> Kubuntu KDE3 which is my main OS and has got me worried.
>>

When you do have the time it sounds like a hardware problem.
Run Memtest86+ for a while. Sound like it could be a memory problem.

Regards,

Adam M. Erickson
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton"

From mikemol at gmail.com  Wed May 14 16:02:09 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 16:02:09 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Kernel panic?
In-Reply-To: <7cd69fdf0805141259m6ce373c0yd4027ea879400ff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805141241v3845b565le5a123e5435680c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210794687.32373.49.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<7cd69fdf0805141259m6ce373c0yd4027ea879400ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805141302i59fffcd1n620f9c4abcc11c0e@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Adam M. Erickson
<erickson.adam.m at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Greg Folkert <greg at gregfolkert.net> wrote:
>  >
>  > On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:41 -0400, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
>  >> I didn't have time to check it out besides rebooting to make sure it
>  >> still can(it can), but my Kubuntu 8.04 desktop froze and the numlock
>  >> and scrolllock kept flashing.  This happened a lot in my Kubuntu KDE4
>  >> partition.  I just thought it was KDE 4, but this just happened in
>  >> Kubuntu KDE3 which is my main OS and has got me worried.
>  >>
>
>  When you do have the time it sounds like a hardware problem.
>  Run Memtest86+ for a while. Sound like it could be a memory problem.

URL, to make sure you get the right one:
http://www.memtest.org/

There's another one, called Memtest86, but it's ancient and buggy.

-- 
:wq

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Wed May 14 16:22:34 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 16:22:34 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Kernel panic?
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805141302i59fffcd1n620f9c4abcc11c0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805141241v3845b565le5a123e5435680c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210794687.32373.49.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<7cd69fdf0805141259m6ce373c0yd4027ea879400ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805141302i59fffcd1n620f9c4abcc11c0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805141322s20503d56x546990c8908e4824@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Michael Mol
> URL, to make sure you get the right one:
> http://www.memtest.org/
>
> There's another one, called Memtest86, but it's ancient and buggy.

In my experience, a large gcc compile job - like 'make allyesconfig'
in a fresh kernel tree - does a much better job coaxing memory errors
from faulty machines.  I've had machines pass multiple days of
memtest86 and memtest86+ without error, but repeatedly segfault during
such a compile.  The same compile job, on the same source tree, on the
same base OS install on different hardware worked fine.  Solution:
faulty memory.  It was replaced and all was well.

I don't trust memtest86 any more.

--tim

From erickson.adam.m at gmail.com  Wed May 14 16:31:41 2008
From: erickson.adam.m at gmail.com (Adam M. Erickson)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 16:31:41 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Kernel panic?
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805141302i59fffcd1n620f9c4abcc11c0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805141241v3845b565le5a123e5435680c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210794687.32373.49.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<7cd69fdf0805141259m6ce373c0yd4027ea879400ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805141302i59fffcd1n620f9c4abcc11c0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7cd69fdf0805141331v1062acacmc150cfc759e89caf@mail.gmail.com>

> URL, to make sure you get the right one:
> http://www.memtest.org/
>
> There's another one, called Memtest86, but it's ancient and buggy.

Sorry I also forgot to mention that you can probably just use the one
that came with the install CD or select it during GRUB bootup.

-- 
Good Luck,

Adam M. Erickson
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton"

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Wed May 14 16:39:31 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 16:39:31 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Kernel panic?
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805141302i59fffcd1n620f9c4abcc11c0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805141241v3845b565le5a123e5435680c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210794687.32373.49.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<7cd69fdf0805141259m6ce373c0yd4027ea879400ff@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805141302i59fffcd1n620f9c4abcc11c0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210797571.32373.55.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 16:02 -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Adam M. Erickson
> <erickson.adam.m at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Greg Folkert <greg at gregfolkert.net> wrote:
> >  >
> >  > On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:41 -0400, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> >  >> I didn't have time to check it out besides rebooting to make sure it
> >  >> still can(it can), but my Kubuntu 8.04 desktop froze and the numlock
> >  >> and scrolllock kept flashing.  This happened a lot in my Kubuntu KDE4
> >  >> partition.  I just thought it was KDE 4, but this just happened in
> >  >> Kubuntu KDE3 which is my main OS and has got me worried.
> >  >>
> >
> >  When you do have the time it sounds like a hardware problem.
> >  Run Memtest86+ for a while. Sound like it could be a memory problem.
> 
> URL, to make sure you get the right one:
> http://www.memtest.org/
> 
> There's another one, called Memtest86, but it's ancient and buggy.

apt-get install memtest86+

pulls in the right one and makes it a selection from the boot prompt,
making it bootable as a selection.

memtest86 v3.4_2 is available in Debian.

memtest86+ v2.01 which is a fork of memtest86 v3.0 is also available in
Debian

They both work, but memtest86+ has support for the more advanced
hardware now a day.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080514/4e80da65/attachment.pgp 

From tim at izzyig.com  Wed May 14 17:06:05 2008
From: tim at izzyig.com (Tim)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:06:05 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AT&T's U-Verse is here in GR
In-Reply-To: <ca1715f80805091646y581a7443kd2d8d5d373938c2d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080509185811.GA28993@jrichards.org>	<d92a2d930805091213y4998a82embae55f177b1ec656@mail.gmail.com>	<f5e00c450805091216k764d320cu91c94af119c5a203@mail.gmail.com>	<20080509192340.GB28993@jrichards.org>	<f5e00c450805091242w5e5c7320geb79959c49456c06@mail.gmail.com>	<d92a2d930805091247v120ccc4do21ad8c935d34daa@mail.gmail.com>	<1fa63b160805091417s7b9da284pcde9f02a9b2a784c@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca1715f80805091646y581a7443kd2d8d5d373938c2d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <482B543D.3050606@izzyig.com>

Justin Popa wrote:
> ATT hates me. I'm out at Walker and 3 mile and I've been told by no 
> less than 3 techs installing in my building(of 6 apartments) that it's 
> available. However, ATT's system disagrees and I can't have it.
>
> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Aaron M. Brummitt <abrummitt at gmail.com 
> <mailto:abrummitt at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     >> > Do you live in GR?  If so, in which area do you live?  I live
>     in the
>     >> > northeast (Plainfield & Knapp) area and have an AT&T U-Verse
>     box (two,
>     >> > actually) installed two houses away from me).  It has been
>     there about
>     >> > a year.  I guess I thought this would be a city-wide rollout.
>     >>
>     >> I live in Grandville.  I guess they literally meant "Grand Rapids",
>     >> not "Grand Rapids area", as virtually every other regional business
>     >> endeavor means.
>     >
>     > I am in Wyoming and it is also not available yet. ATT installed
>     giant new
>     > boxes on Byron Center Ave near my house, so maybe it is coming soon.
>     >
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > grlug mailing list
>     > grlug at grlug.org <mailto:grlug at grlug.org>
>     > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>     >
>
>     U-Verse is also available in Holland:
>
>     http://www.hollandsentinel.com/news_community/x883026069
>
>     Unfortunately not yet in my neighborhood.
>
>     /AMB
>     _______________________________________________
>     grlug mailing list
>     grlug at grlug.org <mailto:grlug at grlug.org>
>     http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
I just ordered U-Verse. They have a salesman coming door-to-to. So I 
guess if it's available they'll be by you also.

From geektoyz at gmail.com  Wed May 14 19:25:27 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 19:25:27 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <20080514155125.GB2883@jrichards.org>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805140817m5a1e0d45h6bb5f4da1245bb44@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080514155125.GB2883@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805141625j7a12c75ate069b406d671eb7e@mail.gmail.com>

Greets,

I've managed our list from day one.  Should anyone have comments,
requests, etc. please feel free to email me directly.

Having said that, I've chosen not to moderate our list because, as
adults, I think we all can/should use our own moderation/discretion.
Yeah, things have flared up from time to time and, having been around
long enough, tend to see them all calm down again.

I, like Justin, have on occasion thought that others, who perhaps may
have joined our list in the middle of one of our "interesting
debates", may get intimidated or even discouraged at the prospect of
asking what may seem trivial to most of us.  Still, I've chosen not to
moderate.  If you follow my posts, you'll notice I either try to say
something helpful or just "hang back".  (Truth is, I'm deathly afraid
of showing my true ignorance.)  ;-)

Would anyone like to see a separate list, perhaps "chats at grlug.org"
where we can digress a topic?  If we wish to move far off from the
original post/request, we can simply Reply to original post, but send
to the other list instead.  For archiving purposes, it should help
those who google us searching for help from having to sift through
tons of irrelevant posts.

What do you guys think?

G-

P.S.  Yeah, I remember Van - Slack/KDE user and rocker (moved to AZ
[http://www.dedserius.com/]), Jim - GVSU SuSE/KDE linux advocate (I
believe he moved to Det area); and who could forget Ann - Redhat/Gnome
user?  She used to code Delphi for drive belt mechanisms at Xrite.
...trip down memory lane.

From clamrock at nmtdie.com  Wed May 14 10:52:38 2008
From: clamrock at nmtdie.com (Chris Lamrock)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 10:52:38 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com><2c97fe9d0805140623r546037edq6340fc757e97524@mail.gmail.com>
	<81e08d920805140748x6c596a07mf84fed178381d041@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00cf01c8b5d2$272d02c0$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>

This group just isn't fun anymore.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Denick" <justin.denick at gmail.com>
To: <grlug at grlug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] List Moderation


> With the highest level of due respect, I commend the efforts of the
> Grand Rapids Linux Users Group.
>
> Many of you, like myself, joined this list to learn more about using
> Linux at home or at work. The list
> enabled us to get the support we needed without having to RTFM and if
> we felt ambitious we could
> post something that helped us so that someone else benefit from it
>
> <flame>
> Then you do actually post something and some geek with a keyboard,
> finds fault with your logic. He posts
> his drivel and you get pissed cause he thinks he has some authority
> cause his buddies started the GRLUG.
> Sweet, keep it. I like BASH, I have no problem RTFM, and debian is for
> sissies who can't configure a kernel.
> No need to suspend this account Mr. Folkert, my name is tado and I'm
> out dis her biatch. Word.
> .</flame>
>
> GRLugers, I'm sure you're not jerks and I'm sure you all have mad
> super human computer skillz and that your
> list manners are just swell. But dude.
>
>
> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:55 AM, Justin Denick <justin.denick at gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>  > We should really think seriously about list moderation.
>>
>>  I assume that's your way of volunteering...  or do you want others to
>>  do the work?
>>
>>
>>  >  I don't who is maintaining this server anymore,
>>  >  but perhaps they might adjust the spam settings to discard any
>>  >  message containing certain buzz words like "top posting".
>>
>>  You just tripped the filter yourself.  This topic was dead (or so I
>>  thought) until you dredged it back up.
>>
>>
>>  >  We may even extend that to include messages that only
>>  >  serve to discredit our lists' reputation and inflame
>>  >  our attitudes.
>>
>>  Ah, yes.  Let's ban everything controversial, and burn some books
>>  while we're at it.
>>
>>
>>  >  The moderator may then choose to suspend the individuals' grlug
>>  >  account for a week or so.
>>
>>  IMHO, this sort of treatment should be reserved for spammers.  Normal
>>  discussion is quite well regulated by communal consensus.
>>
>>
>>  >  The constant discussion of RFC standards for electronic
>>  >  communication
>>
>>  huh?
>>
>>
>>  >  has made me  wonder if we don't look more like the Email Police
>>  >  and less like Linux enthusiasts!
>>
>>  I don't particularly care what you or I look like...  Looks rarely
>>  impart information of substance.
>>
>>
>>  >  Imagine what a prospective employer or recruitment firm thinks
>>  >  when reading our threads. I know they've read our posts, I've had
>>  >  them mentioned to me by a respected staffing firm.
>>
>>  Are you implying that the words of individuals you may not have ever
>>  met, may share nothing in common with (save membership to a diverse
>>  mailing list), have never worked with, and have no other associations,
>>  might influence your job prospects?
>>
>>  Ridiculous.
>>
>>  Your own actions, here, or anywhere else, are an employer's concern.
>>  How you handle yourself when the things around you go to shit.
>>
>>  Were I an employer, I'd have liked to see you lead by example, and
>>  attempt to reinforce and buttress upon existing community values.
>>  That's how successful [community] management is done.  Instead, you
>>  looked for someone else (a moderator, an objectionable content filter)
>>  to fix your problems for you.  I'd be much more worried about what
>>  _that_ says to a prospective employer than anything coming from my
>>  email address.
>>
>>  --tim
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  grlug mailing list
>>  grlug at grlug.org
>>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> In vino veritas.
> [In wine there is truth.]
> -- Pliny
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> !DSPAM:482afbd8220403599514348!
> 



From djk at aiow.net  Wed May 14 18:28:12 2008
From: djk at aiow.net (Dennis Kaminski)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 18:28:12 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Sometimes we need to take a step back
In-Reply-To: <f0ffba670805141005l7f2138aaxb6645b6de52a6911@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0ffba670805141005l7f2138aaxb6645b6de52a6911@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210804092.31530.6.camel@lx52.ld>

On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 13:05 -0400, Casey DuBois wrote:
> A man came home from work late, tired and irritated, to find his
> 5-year old son waiting for him at the door.
> 
> SON : "Daddy, may I ask you a question?"
> 
> DAD: "Yeah sure, what is it?"
> 
> SON : "Daddy, how much do you make an hour?"
> 
> DAD: "That's none of your business. Why do you ask such a thing?"
> 
> SON : "I just want to know. Please tell me, how much do you make an hour?"
> 
> DAD: "If you must know, I make $100 an hour."
> 
> SON : "Oh! (with his head down).
> 
> SON : "Daddy, may I please borrow $50?"
> 
> The father was furious.
> 
> DAD: "If the only reason you asked that is so you can borrow some
> money to buy a silly toy or some other nonsense, then you march
> yourself straight to your room and go to bed. Think about why you are
> being so selfish. I work hard everyday for such this childish
> behavior."
> 
> The little boy quietly went to his room and shut the door. The man sat
> down and started to get even angrier about the little boy's questions.
> How dare he ask such questions only to get some money?
> 
> After about an hour or so, the man had calmed down, and started to
> think: Maybe there was something he really needed to buy with that $
> 50 and he really didn't ask for money very often. The man went to the
> door of the little boy's room and opened the door.
> 
> DAD: "Are you asleep, son?"
> 
> SON : "No daddy, I'm awake".
> 
> DAD: "I've been thinking, maybe I was too hard on you earlier. It's
> been a long day and I took out my aggravation on you. Here's the $50
> you asked for." The little boy sat straight up, smiling.
> 
> SON : "Oh, thank you daddy! "
> 
> Then, reaching under his pillow he pulled out some crumpled up bills.
> The man saw that the boy already had money, started to get angry
> again. The little boy slowly counted out his money, and then looked up
> at his father.
> 
> DAD: "Why do you want more money if you already have some?"
> 
> SON : "Because I didn't have enough, but now I do.
> 
> "Daddy, I have $100 now. Can I buy an hour of your time?
> 
> Please come home early tomorrow. I would like to have dinner with you."
> 
> The father was crushed. He put his arms around his little son, and he
> begged for his forgiveness.
> 
> It's just a short reminder to all of you working so hard in life. We
> should not let time slip through our fingers without having spent some
> time with those who really matter to us, those close to our hearts.
> 
> Do remember to share that $100 worth of your time with someone you love?
> 
> If we die tomorrow, the company that we are working for could easily
> replace us in a matter of days.
> 
> But the family and friends we leave behind will feel the loss for the
> rest of their lives. And come to think of it, we pour ourselves more
> into work than to our family.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Casey
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 
> 


Thanks Casey,

I never look back and wish that I had spent more time at work. 

Now that my son is grown I do wish I had spend more time with him when
he was a boy.

Some things just can't be taught to the next generation.

Best regards,
Dennis




From thisboyiscrazy at gmail.com  Fri May  2 13:27:55 2008
From: thisboyiscrazy at gmail.com (Joe Vanderstelt)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 13:27:55 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] VirtualBox one way bridge
In-Reply-To: <d92a2d930805020859s4912ba00p5b154f7da838e970@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cea1322a0805020852r47210616o81a9d5f5f839bd08@mail.gmail.com>
	<d92a2d930805020859s4912ba00p5b154f7da838e970@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cea1322a0805021027n4b6818fbr47215c31f428381c@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Ben Rousch <brousch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Joe Vanderstelt
> <thisboyiscrazy+grlug at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Any VirtualBox Users in the list?
> >
> > I have setup VirtualBox and I am trying to set up network birdgeing (I
> > am using ubuntu 8.04). I have tried bother methods out lined in the
> > manual (using vbox0 and tap0). Both ways give the same result.
> > Everything works fine on the VM, and everything works fine on the
> > Host, except I can not ping the VM from the host or the network, the
> > VM can ping the everything.
> >
> > Any Ideas?
>
> Firewall on the host or guest?
>
> _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

guest: by default yes and I have turned it off
host: no

From darth_linux at ameritech.net  Wed May 14 19:48:34 2008
From: darth_linux at ameritech.net (eah)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 19:48:34 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200805141948.35097.darth_linux@ameritech.net>

On Wednesday 14 May 2008 08:55:18 am Justin Denick wrote:
> We should really think seriously about list moderation. 

<snip> 

> Cheers,
>
> Justin
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

Here is the moderation then: 
On the topic of where to post comments: I call Hitler 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)
On the topic of politness: I call Hitler
On flame wars not Linux related: I call Hit.... don't make me finish the 
word.... I will. 

We can (briefly) discuss this tomorrow night. briefly. 

I agree with the poster that pointed out we are adults. We need not moderate 
the list. We know how to be polite. We need not start posts with "I don't 
know if this is polite or not" 'cause we know the Linux comminity is a caring 
community that *gently* reminds us off-list when we commit faux pas. 

On to Linux. 
Let's have some fun people! :-) 

eah  

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Wed May 14 22:04:08 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 22:04:08 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10805141625j7a12c75ate069b406d671eb7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805140817m5a1e0d45h6bb5f4da1245bb44@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080514155125.GB2883@jrichards.org>
	<8b72b8d10805141625j7a12c75ate069b406d671eb7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210817048.4935.2.camel@aleph>

> Would anyone like to see a separate list, perhaps "chats at grlug.org"
> where we can digress a topic?  If we wish to move far off from the
> original post/request, we can simply Reply to original post, but send
> to the other list instead.  For archiving purposes, it should help
> those who google us searching for help from having to sift through
> tons of irrelevant posts.
> What do you guys think?

My experience managing other lists/forums is that this
post-to-other-list just won't happen.  At first it won't happen because
people won't remember or think of it,  later it won't happen because
people will learn that when they do do it that it breaks the flow of the
thread/conversation backing the post pointless.


From mikemol at gmail.com  Wed May 14 22:22:44 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 22:22:44 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <1210817048.4935.2.camel@aleph>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805140817m5a1e0d45h6bb5f4da1245bb44@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080514155125.GB2883@jrichards.org>
	<8b72b8d10805141625j7a12c75ate069b406d671eb7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210817048.4935.2.camel@aleph>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805141922t390a19d8y754b68f9e1060ce0@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
<adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Would anyone like to see a separate list, perhaps "chats at grlug.org"
>  > where we can digress a topic?  If we wish to move far off from the
>  > original post/request, we can simply Reply to original post, but send
>  > to the other list instead.  For archiving purposes, it should help
>  > those who google us searching for help from having to sift through
>  > tons of irrelevant posts.
>  > What do you guys think?
>
>  My experience managing other lists/forums is that this
>  post-to-other-list just won't happen.  At first it won't happen because
>  people won't remember or think of it,  later it won't happen because
>  people will learn that when they do do it that it breaks the flow of the
>  thread/conversation backing the post pointless.

This matches my list-administrating experience as well.  I'd also add
that the primary list would likely only get further fuddled with posts
of "chats@ is that way -->".  And then there's the whole problem of
newbies not knowing about it. (Seriously...who reads the greeter
emails?)


-- 
:wq

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed May 14 22:32:02 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 22:32:02 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <1210817048.4935.2.camel@aleph>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805140817m5a1e0d45h6bb5f4da1245bb44@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080514155125.GB2883@jrichards.org>
	<8b72b8d10805141625j7a12c75ate069b406d671eb7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210817048.4935.2.camel@aleph>
Message-ID: <20080515023202.GA9571@jrichards.org>

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 10:04:08PM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > Would anyone like to see a separate list, perhaps "chats at grlug.org"
> > where we can digress a topic?  If we wish to move far off from the
> > original post/request, we can simply Reply to original post, but send
> > to the other list instead.  For archiving purposes, it should help
> > those who google us searching for help from having to sift through
> > tons of irrelevant posts.
> > What do you guys think?
> 
> My experience managing other lists/forums is that this
> post-to-other-list just won't happen.  At first it won't happen because
> people won't remember or think of it,  later it won't happen because
> people will learn that when they do do it that it breaks the flow of the
> thread/conversation backing the post pointless.

We had a grlug-chat list for "off-topic" posts.  My mbox for it has 31
messages, five of which are from majordomo.  I do not think it will
work.
-- 
john-thomas
------
It is almost impossible to carry the torch of truth through a crowd without
singeing somebody's beard.
George Christopher Lichtenberg, scientist and philosopher (1742-1799)

From mikemol at gmail.com  Thu May 15 01:15:46 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 01:15:46 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] USB Sound card
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805142215r34c2a957i909cac54227a72bf@mail.gmail.com>

It's time to get a new sound card for my desktop.  To avoid as much
electrical noise as possible, I'm planning on getting an external USB
device I can situate on top of my stereo (with the help of a long USB
cable), rather than running the audio cables six feet past a bunch of
noise sources.

Anyone have good Linux experiences with recent USB audio devices?
Preferably experiences that don't require special drivers?  I know
there's a standardized USB audio spec that works pretty well; I once
had a sweet pair of headphones that worked that way.  But I've also
encountered USB audio devices that required drivers only available on
Windows...

-- 
:wq

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Thu May 15 01:24:24 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 01:24:24 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] USB Sound card
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805142215r34c2a957i909cac54227a72bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805142215r34c2a957i909cac54227a72bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805142224w29f7c0fcs7e98a8279d52192d@mail.gmail.com>

I would recommend sound card that have express card

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
> It's time to get a new sound card for my desktop.  To avoid as much
> electrical noise as possible, I'm planning on getting an external USB
> device I can situate on top of my stereo (with the help of a long USB
> cable), rather than running the audio cables six feet past a bunch of
> noise sources.
>
> Anyone have good Linux experiences with recent USB audio devices?
> Preferably experiences that don't require special drivers?  I know
> there's a standardized USB audio spec that works pretty well; I once
> had a sweet pair of headphones that worked that way.  But I've also
> encountered USB audio devices that required drivers only available on
> Windows...
>
> --
> :wq
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha

From mikemol at gmail.com  Thu May 15 01:32:27 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 01:32:27 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] USB Sound card
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0805142224w29f7c0fcs7e98a8279d52192d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805142215r34c2a957i909cac54227a72bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805142224w29f7c0fcs7e98a8279d52192d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805142232g2b6a0166g7f2f66587f82c01b@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:24 AM, Professor Inuyasha
<profinuyasha at gmail.com> wrote:
> I would recommend sound card that have express card

A) I'm looking for a USB device
B) The computer in question has a couple ISA slots and 12 PCI slots.
B*) (details and pics here: http://mikemol.multiply.com/photos/album/15 )


-- 
:wq

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Thu May 15 01:48:29 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 01:48:29 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] USB Sound card
In-Reply-To: <f5e00c450805142232g2b6a0166g7f2f66587f82c01b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5e00c450805142215r34c2a957i909cac54227a72bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805142224w29f7c0fcs7e98a8279d52192d@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805142232g2b6a0166g7f2f66587f82c01b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805142248n75830b6dude59189612669943@mail.gmail.com>

oh right, if laptop then get express card :P

there have sound card for PCI too

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:32 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:24 AM, Professor Inuyasha
> <profinuyasha at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I would recommend sound card that have express card
>
> A) I'm looking for a USB device
> B) The computer in question has a couple ISA slots and 12 PCI slots.
> B*) (details and pics here: http://mikemol.multiply.com/photos/album/15 )
>
>
> --
> :wq
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha

From grlug at tankrip.com  Thu May 15 08:54:15 2008
From: grlug at tankrip.com (Colin Vallance)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 08:54:15 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10805141625j7a12c75ate069b406d671eb7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805140817m5a1e0d45h6bb5f4da1245bb44@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080514155125.GB2883@jrichards.org>
	<8b72b8d10805141625j7a12c75ate069b406d671eb7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C8191992-2D4E-4963-BC6B-DE25555FD359@tankrip.com>

Do we have an IRC channel anywhere?  That seems like a better place  
for petty bickering ;)

Seriously though, a channel with a bot that logs everything and posts  
it up somewhere might be good.  Sometimes it's nice to have a place to  
pop in to and ask a question when you're in the middle of something.   
(I find any X11 stuff I do tends to be a problem).


On May 14, 2008, at 7:25 PM, Godwin wrote:

> Greets,
>
> I've managed our list from day one.  Should anyone have comments,
> requests, etc. please feel free to email me directly.
>
> Having said that, I've chosen not to moderate our list because, as
> adults, I think we all can/should use our own moderation/discretion.
> Yeah, things have flared up from time to time and, having been around
> long enough, tend to see them all calm down again.
>
> I, like Justin, have on occasion thought that others, who perhaps may
> have joined our list in the middle of one of our "interesting
> debates", may get intimidated or even discouraged at the prospect of
> asking what may seem trivial to most of us.  Still, I've chosen not to
> moderate.  If you follow my posts, you'll notice I either try to say
> something helpful or just "hang back".  (Truth is, I'm deathly afraid
> of showing my true ignorance.)  ;-)
>
> Would anyone like to see a separate list, perhaps "chats at grlug.org"
> where we can digress a topic?  If we wish to move far off from the
> original post/request, we can simply Reply to original post, but send
> to the other list instead.  For archiving purposes, it should help
> those who google us searching for help from having to sift through
> tons of irrelevant posts.
>
> What do you guys think?
>
> G-
>
> P.S.  Yeah, I remember Van - Slack/KDE user and rocker (moved to AZ
> [http://www.dedserius.com/]), Jim - GVSU SuSE/KDE linux advocate (I
> believe he moved to Det area); and who could forget Ann - Redhat/Gnome
> user?  She used to code Delphi for drive belt mechanisms at Xrite.
> ...trip down memory lane.
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


From brousch at gmail.com  Thu May 15 08:59:38 2008
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 08:59:38 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <C8191992-2D4E-4963-BC6B-DE25555FD359@tankrip.com>
References: <81e08d920805140555k5390289do176c6c6414f65bf3@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805140817m5a1e0d45h6bb5f4da1245bb44@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080514155125.GB2883@jrichards.org>
	<8b72b8d10805141625j7a12c75ate069b406d671eb7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<C8191992-2D4E-4963-BC6B-DE25555FD359@tankrip.com>
Message-ID: <d92a2d930805150559j9a120c9p1618229934aa7d57@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 8:54 AM, Colin Vallance <grlug at tankrip.com> wrote:

> Do we have an IRC channel anywhere?  That seems like a better place
> for petty bickering ;)
>

#grlug on freenode
It doesn't have a bot, and it is usually very quiet. The same four people
are usually logged in, but there's not much activity.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080515/a2f19eed/attachment-0001.htm 

From Bill.Pribble at Haworth.com  Thu May 15 10:03:50 2008
From: Bill.Pribble at Haworth.com (Bill Pribble)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 10:03:50 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] CUPS Presentation - Next GRLUG Meeting Thursday May 15th
In-Reply-To: <cea1322a0804300520x498360b3o182247a1f4063290@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0ffba670804291120h4e27d3admc3dcbba7fad8ff08@mail.gmail.com><200804292155.42622.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	<cea1322a0804300520x498360b3o182247a1f4063290@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2DAD62F9671F2B4086B98467C14EE7D30E0FCA57@nahollex01.NA.Haworthinc.com>

I will be attending, it will be my first meeting.

Thanks
Bill Pribble

-----Original Message-----
From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf
Of Joe Vanderstelt
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:21 AM
To: grlug at grlug.org
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] CUPS Presentation - Next GRLUG Meeting Thursday May
15th

I have been using cups to modify print jobs in transit which has some
usefully applications. If any one is interested I'll bring some
information to the meeting.

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:55 PM, eah <darth_linux at ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> On Tuesday 29 April 2008 14:20:36 pm Casey DuBois wrote:
>  > Hello ALL,
>  >
>  > GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) May Meeting
>  >
>  > Food will be provided so please RSVP to casey at grlug.org so I can
make
>  > sure to have enough.
>  >
>  > Date and Time:
>  > Thursday May 15th
>  > 6:00 PM - 8:00 PM (food will be ready @ 6:00)
>  >
>  > Location:
>  > N-Vint, Inc., 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
>  >
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industr
ial
>
>+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.
76562
>
>5&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr
&om=1
>  >
>  > Presentation: Enterprise Printing via CUPS "Implementing CUPS and
>  > using cups from Windows, Linux, HPUX and AIX"
>  > Additional Topics:
>  > gOS
>  > USB Linux
>  > Open source vs Closed source for Linux
>  >
>  >
>  > *** REMINDER *** AIM West meeting TOMORROW
>  > An Open Discussion of Open Source: How FREE Software Can Help Your
>  > Business! Wednesday, April 30th
>  > Location: Eberhard Center, GVSU
>  > Networking Time:  5:30 p.m.
>  > Panel Discussion:  6:30 p.m.
>  >
>  > Panelists Are:
>  > Carl Erickson (Atomic Object)
>  > Brian Anderson (RCM Technologies)
>  > Andy Mann (Calhoun Intermediate School District)
>  > Eric Hartwell (ITT Technical Institute)
>  > More details @ www.aimwest.org
>  >
>  > See you soon,
>  > Casey DuBois
>  > casey at grlug.org
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > grlug mailing list
>  > grlug at grlug.org
>  > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>  I'll do my best to be there :-)
>
>
>  eah
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
_______________________________________________
grlug mailing list
grlug at grlug.org
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

From networkman at triton.net  Thu May 15 11:03:52 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (Rich Nagel)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:03:52 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] CUPS Presentation - Next GRLUG Meeting Thursday May 15th
References: <f0ffba670804291120h4e27d3admc3dcbba7fad8ff08@mail.gmail.com><200804292155.42622.darth_linux@ameritech.net><cea1322a0804300520x498360b3o182247a1f4063290@mail.gmail.com>
	<2DAD62F9671F2B4086B98467C14EE7D30E0FCA57@nahollex01.NA.Haworthinc.com>
Message-ID: <6B8029A3F4A74F9DB60120E46EAA26F0@kdl.net>

Gosh, I guess that means I'll have to play nice.

Actually, it's my 2nd meeting. :)

Rich

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Pribble" <Bill.Pribble at Haworth.com>
To: <grlug at grlug.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] CUPS Presentation - Next GRLUG Meeting Thursday May 
15th


>I will be attending, it will be my first meeting.
>
> Thanks
> Bill Pribble
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf
> Of Joe Vanderstelt
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:21 AM
> To: grlug at grlug.org
> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] CUPS Presentation - Next GRLUG Meeting Thursday May
> 15th
>
> I have been using cups to modify print jobs in transit which has some
> usefully applications. If any one is interested I'll bring some
> information to the meeting.
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:55 PM, eah <darth_linux at ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday 29 April 2008 14:20:36 pm Casey DuBois wrote:
>>  > Hello ALL,
>>  >
>>  > GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) May Meeting
>>  >
>>  > Food will be provided so please RSVP to casey at grlug.org so I can
> make
>>  > sure to have enough.
>>  >
>>  > Date and Time:
>>  > Thursday May 15th
>>  > 6:00 PM - 8:00 PM (food will be ready @ 6:00)
>>  >
>>  > Location:
>>  > N-Vint, Inc., 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
>>  >
> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industr
> ial
>>
>>+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.
> 76562
>>
>>5&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr
> &om=1
>>  >
>>  > Presentation: Enterprise Printing via CUPS "Implementing CUPS and
>>  > using cups from Windows, Linux, HPUX and AIX"
>>  > Additional Topics:
>>  > gOS
>>  > USB Linux
>>  > Open source vs Closed source for Linux
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > *** REMINDER *** AIM West meeting TOMORROW
>>  > An Open Discussion of Open Source: How FREE Software Can Help Your
>>  > Business! Wednesday, April 30th
>>  > Location: Eberhard Center, GVSU
>>  > Networking Time:  5:30 p.m.
>>  > Panel Discussion:  6:30 p.m.
>>  >
>>  > Panelists Are:
>>  > Carl Erickson (Atomic Object)
>>  > Brian Anderson (RCM Technologies)
>>  > Andy Mann (Calhoun Intermediate School District)
>>  > Eric Hartwell (ITT Technical Institute)
>>  > More details @ www.aimwest.org
>>  >
>>  > See you soon,
>>  > Casey DuBois
>>  > casey at grlug.org
>>  > _______________________________________________
>>  > grlug mailing list
>>  > grlug at grlug.org
>>  > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
>>  I'll do my best to be there :-)
>>
>>
>>  eah
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>  grlug mailing list
>>  grlug at grlug.org
>>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> 


From casey at grlug.org  Thu May 15 11:57:38 2008
From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:57:38 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] GRLUG Meeting Tonight 6-8
Message-ID: <f0ffba670805150857t477309b3t8c46086dcbecb014@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

I have not had time to respond to all of the RSVP's personally and
wanted to say that I look forward to seeing everyone that has RSVP'd
tonight. Even if you have not had the time to RSVP you are ALWAYS
welcome.

I'll be throwing some MEAT on the grill and plan on having it ready by 6:00

SeeYa,
Casey

From dond at standalelumber.com  Thu May 15 12:03:46 2008
From: dond at standalelumber.com (Don Wood)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:03:46 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] GRLUG Meeting Tonight 6-8
In-Reply-To: <f0ffba670805150857t477309b3t8c46086dcbecb014@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0ffba670805150857t477309b3t8c46086dcbecb014@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210867427.7116.30.camel@donw-laptop>




On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 11:57 -0400, Casey DuBois wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> I have not had time to respond to all of the RSVP's personally and
> wanted to say that I look forward to seeing everyone that has RSVP'd
> tonight. Even if you have not had the time to RSVP you are ALWAYS
> welcome.
> 
> I'll be throwing some MEAT on the grill and plan on having it ready by 6:00
> 
> SeeYa,
> Casey
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


I wish I could be there as I would really like to learn more about cups
but I have other plans tonight. Are you going to be recording this one?


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080515/5c58ae0e/attachment-0001.htm 

From erickson.adam.m at gmail.com  Thu May 15 14:14:17 2008
From: erickson.adam.m at gmail.com (Adam M. Erickson)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:14:17 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] GRLUG Meeting Tonight 6-8
In-Reply-To: <1210867427.7116.30.camel@donw-laptop>
References: <f0ffba670805150857t477309b3t8c46086dcbecb014@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210867427.7116.30.camel@donw-laptop>
Message-ID: <7cd69fdf0805151114u281d911ag4f641e990f169659@mail.gmail.com>

Please record it and post it you have the capabilities to.
-- 
Regards,

Adam M. Erickson
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton"

From casey at grlug.org  Thu May 15 14:41:45 2008
From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:41:45 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] GRLUG Meeting Tonight 6-8
In-Reply-To: <7cd69fdf0805151114u281d911ag4f641e990f169659@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0ffba670805150857t477309b3t8c46086dcbecb014@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210867427.7116.30.camel@donw-laptop>
	<7cd69fdf0805151114u281d911ag4f641e990f169659@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0ffba670805151141s165f21a8g71ef1732cd2f157a@mail.gmail.com>

I have a Video Cam and will do my best to record and post.
Casey

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Adam M. Erickson
<erickson.adam.m at gmail.com> wrote:
> Please record it and post it you have the capabilities to.
> --
> Regards,
>
> Adam M. Erickson
> "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.
> -Isaac Newton"
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Thu May 15 20:32:52 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 20:32:52 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] GRLUG Meeting Tonight 6-8
In-Reply-To: <f0ffba670805150857t477309b3t8c46086dcbecb014@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0ffba670805150857t477309b3t8c46086dcbecb014@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1210897972.8100.3.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>

To follow up on the commands needed to get Local Groups to be equivalent
to "Domain Groups"


As root of course, and perhaps (now that things have progressed), a
proper kerberos ticket issued from the Windows AD server.


net groupmap modify ntgroup="Domain Admins" unixgroup=admins
net groupmap modify ntgroup="Domain Users" unixgroup=users


Of course the mind endlessly can come up with combinations... but these
are the ones you've had issues with Jim. I hope this helps out.


On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 11:57 -0400, Casey DuBois wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I have not had time to respond to all of the RSVP's personally and
> wanted to say that I look forward to seeing everyone that has RSVP'd
> tonight. Even if you have not had the time to RSVP you are ALWAYS
> welcome.
> 
> I'll be throwing some MEAT on the grill and plan on having it ready by 6:00
> 
> SeeYa,
> Casey
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080515/56468d21/attachment.pgp 

From josephharnish at gmail.com  Fri May 16 13:02:14 2008
From: josephharnish at gmail.com (Joseph Harnish)
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 13:02:14 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] GRLUG Meeting Tonight 6-8
In-Reply-To: <1210897972.8100.3.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <f0ffba670805150857t477309b3t8c46086dcbecb014@mail.gmail.com>
	<1210897972.8100.3.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <bad7536b0805161002l13ba766bk6363f96dbe5af59d@mail.gmail.com>

Easy CUPS setup for OSX PrinterSetup
(http://osx.freshmeat.net/projects/printersetup/)

Also for restarting a printer queue you can use the cupseneable
command (http://cups.org/documentation.php/man-cupsenable.html).

--Joe
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080516/66e94bc7/attachment.htm 

From casey at grlug.org  Fri May 16 14:28:00 2008
From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois)
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 14:28:00 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Local Support for Linux Desktops
In-Reply-To: <1209758843.5393.12.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <f0ffba670805021201w304f7581s677622d71c9a1e27@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805021241h73ba0740yc1c425865f6829a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1209758843.5393.12.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <f0ffba670805161128h53c46feepd2290f211568e569@mail.gmail.com>

>> >  During the AIM West meeting on Open Source someone asked if anyone
>> >  knew of a local vendor that offered support for Linux Desktops and no
>> >  one knew of any.
>> >  Does anyone on the list offer Linux support or know of anyone that does?


Hello GRLUGGERS,

Thanks to Joe V.... I found someone local that offers Linux support
and have encouraged him to join our mailing list!!!

Here is his info:
CCS Technologies, 616-997-8808
Greg Slater, gslater at ccstech.net
300 Main Street, Coopersville, MI 49404

Have a GREAT weekend!

Casey

From ben at eavey.com  Mon May 19 11:09:48 2008
From: ben at eavey.com (Benjamin Eavey)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 11:09:48 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AtMail Open Source Edition
Message-ID: <4831983C.2050303@eavey.com>

I thought folks on here might be interested in this.  I've used AtMail's 
commercial mail server for years, but they just released an "open source 
edition" (Apache 2.0 license) today that you can implement for free. 
It's an awesome AJAX webmail interface, if you've never heard of it:

http://atmail.org/

If you're looking for slick webmail, then check it out.  It's one of the 
nicest interfaces I've ever used.  And free is good.  :)

Not trying to be spammy -- I just like their product.

-Ben

From david at pembrook.net  Mon May 19 11:48:34 2008
From: david at pembrook.net (David Pembrook)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 11:48:34 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AtMail Open Source Edition
In-Reply-To: <4831983C.2050303@eavey.com>
References: <4831983C.2050303@eavey.com>
Message-ID: <4831A152.8080800@pembrook.net>

Benjamin Eavey wrote:
> I thought folks on here might be interested in this.  I've used AtMail's 
> commercial mail server for years, but they just released an "open source 
> edition" (Apache 2.0 license) today that you can implement for free. 
> It's an awesome AJAX webmail interface, if you've never heard of it:
>
> http://atmail.org/
>
> If you're looking for slick webmail, then check it out.  It's one of the 
> nicest interfaces I've ever used.  And free is good.  :)
>
> Not trying to be spammy -- I just like their product.
>
> -Ben
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>   

spammy nothing! thanks for the tip! Looks nice from the screen shot

From erickson.adam.m at gmail.com  Mon May 19 14:41:26 2008
From: erickson.adam.m at gmail.com (Adam M. Erickson)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 14:41:26 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AtMail Open Source Edition
In-Reply-To: <4831A152.8080800@pembrook.net>
References: <4831983C.2050303@eavey.com> <4831A152.8080800@pembrook.net>
Message-ID: <7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>

Looks good. How well does it tie into groupware type services
for business group calendars and project management?
Also when considering business mail servers. What seems
to be the most popular with the GRLUGroup? is it MS Exchange?
-- 
Regards,

Adam M. Erickson
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton"

From erickson.adam.m at gmail.com  Mon May 19 14:44:41 2008
From: erickson.adam.m at gmail.com (Adam M. Erickson)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 14:44:41 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AtMail Open Source Edition
In-Reply-To: <7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4831983C.2050303@eavey.com> <4831A152.8080800@pembrook.net>
	<7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7cd69fdf0805191144w3e182763w2a7b6cfade4e7294@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry about the last post I just realized my mistake with what
atmail.org actually does.
--
Regards,
Adam M. Erickson

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Mon May 19 15:14:33 2008
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 15:14:33 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AtMail Open Source Edition
In-Reply-To: <7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4831983C.2050303@eavey.com> <4831A152.8080800@pembrook.net>
	<7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4831D199.30702@kkmfg.com>

Adam M. Erickson wrote:
> Looks good. How well does it tie into groupware type services
> for business group calendars and project management?
> Also when considering business mail servers. What seems
> to be the most popular with the GRLUGroup? is it MS Exchange?
>   
As far as business mail servers go I just use UW IMAP. For reasonable 
size businesses without the need for calender type stuff it's a good 
email server. And, it's a package in most any linux distro. That's 
always nice.

From ben at eavey.com  Mon May 19 15:33:57 2008
From: ben at eavey.com (Benjamin Eavey)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 15:33:57 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AtMail Open Source Edition
In-Reply-To: <7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4831983C.2050303@eavey.com> <4831A152.8080800@pembrook.net>
	<7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4831D625.6000003@eavey.com>

Adam M. Erickson wrote:
> Looks good. How well does it tie into groupware type services
> for business group calendars and project management?
> Also when considering business mail servers. What seems
> to be the most popular with the GRLUGroup? is it MS Exchange?

The free version doesn't do any of that stuff.  It's just a really nice 
webmail interface.  However, the commercial version does allow for 
shared calendaring and address books, synchronization with Outlook (if 
you need that), virus and spam screening, and lots of other stuff.  Hit 
atmail.com if you want to check out the non-free option.

-Ben

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon May 19 16:05:49 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 16:05:49 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AtMail Open Source Edition
In-Reply-To: <7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4831983C.2050303@eavey.com> <4831A152.8080800@pembrook.net>
	<7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1211227549.4629.4.camel@EVTLIS03.morrison.iserv.net>

> Looks good. How well does it tie into groupware type services
> for business group calendars and project management?
> Also when considering business mail servers. What seems
> to be the most popular with the GRLUGroup? is it MS Exchange?

We use Cyrus IMAP & Postfix for SMTP/IMAP/POP.  Really can't recommend
Cyrus strongly enough,  extremely fast and feature rich.

For groupware we use OpenGroupware;  and I'm an OpenGroupware developer.
Excellent integration capabilities,  we use it for all manner of things
via our PHP intranet and its XML-RPC API
<http://code.google.com/p/zogi/>
-- 
          Consonance: an Open Source .NET OpenGroupware client.
 Contact:awilliam at whitemiceconsulting.com   http://freshmeat.net/projects/consonance/


From brousch at gmail.com  Mon May 19 16:21:14 2008
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 16:21:14 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AtMail Open Source Edition
In-Reply-To: <7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4831983C.2050303@eavey.com> <4831A152.8080800@pembrook.net>
	<7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d92a2d930805191321g18dffde0i53e231c794b4370c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Adam M. Erickson <erickson.adam.m at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Looks good. How well does it tie into groupware type services
> for business group calendars and project management?
> Also when considering business mail servers. What seems
> to be the most popular with the GRLUGroup? is it MS Exchange?
>

We use Zimbra, Open Source version. http://www.zimbra.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080519/f8d20bbc/attachment.htm 

From david at pembrook.net  Mon May 19 17:13:04 2008
From: david at pembrook.net (David Pembrook)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 17:13:04 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AtMail Open Source Edition
In-Reply-To: <4831D625.6000003@eavey.com>
References: <4831983C.2050303@eavey.com>
	<4831A152.8080800@pembrook.net>	<7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>
	<4831D625.6000003@eavey.com>
Message-ID: <4831ED60.90207@pembrook.net>

Benjamin Eavey wrote:
> Adam M. Erickson wrote:
>   
>> Looks good. How well does it tie into groupware type services
>> for business group calendars and project management?
>> Also when considering business mail servers. What seems
>> to be the most popular with the GRLUGroup? is it MS Exchange?
>>     
>
> The free version doesn't do any of that stuff.  It's just a really nice 
> webmail interface.  However, the commercial version does allow for 
> shared calendaring and address books, synchronization with Outlook (if 
> you need that), virus and spam screening, and lots of other stuff.  Hit 
> atmail.com if you want to check out the non-free option.
>
> -Ben
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>   
I am looking for a nice webmail client. This looks nice for that. I have 
seen some really nice skins you can buy for squirrel mail. Anyone have 
anything they really like for webmail?

Dave

From brousch at gmail.com  Mon May 19 18:54:14 2008
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 18:54:14 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AtMail Open Source Edition
In-Reply-To: <4831ED60.90207@pembrook.net>
References: <4831983C.2050303@eavey.com> <4831A152.8080800@pembrook.net>
	<7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>
	<4831D625.6000003@eavey.com> <4831ED60.90207@pembrook.net>
Message-ID: <d92a2d930805191554s12f1ad0esbba0561475e6b78c@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I am looking for a nice webmail client. This looks nice for that. I have
> seen some really nice skins you can buy for squirrel mail. Anyone have
> anything they really like for webmail?
>

Roundcube is pretty good for a simple AJAX webmail client.
 http://roundcube.net/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080519/dde19c1c/attachment.htm 

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon May 19 21:14:38 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 21:14:38 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] AtMail Open Source Edition
In-Reply-To: <d92a2d930805191554s12f1ad0esbba0561475e6b78c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4831983C.2050303@eavey.com> <4831A152.8080800@pembrook.net>
	<7cd69fdf0805191141r2717cf89ud51148460c269147@mail.gmail.com>
	<4831D625.6000003@eavey.com> <4831ED60.90207@pembrook.net>
	<d92a2d930805191554s12f1ad0esbba0561475e6b78c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1211246078.5129.4.camel@aleph>

On Mon, 2008-05-19 at 18:54 -0400, Ben Rousch wrote:
> > I am looking for a nice webmail client. This looks nice for that. I
> > have seen some really nice skins you can buy for squirrel mail. 
> > Anyone have anything they really like for webmail
> Roundcube is pretty good for a simple AJAX webmail client.
> http://roundcube.net/

We use Horde; it has a very nice interface and is extremely
configurable.  The best feature is that it works with all e-email,  even
the tortured messages produced by antique versions of Notes.


From bhaskin at gmail.com  Tue May 20 17:48:27 2008
From: bhaskin at gmail.com (Brian Haskin)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 17:48:27 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] CUPS Presentation - Next GRLUG Meeting Thursday May 15th
In-Reply-To: <6B8029A3F4A74F9DB60120E46EAA26F0@kdl.net>
References: <f0ffba670804291120h4e27d3admc3dcbba7fad8ff08@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804292155.42622.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	<cea1322a0804300520x498360b3o182247a1f4063290@mail.gmail.com>
	<2DAD62F9671F2B4086B98467C14EE7D30E0FCA57@nahollex01.NA.Haworthinc.com>
	<6B8029A3F4A74F9DB60120E46EAA26F0@kdl.net>
Message-ID: <9329fcc90805201448r2c46125fwf3614acd744ac97@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Rich Nagel <networkman at triton.net> wrote:

> Gosh, I guess that means I'll have to play nice.
>
> Actually, it's my 2nd meeting. :)
>
> Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Pribble" <Bill.Pribble at Haworth.com>
> To: <grlug at grlug.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 10:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] CUPS Presentation - Next GRLUG Meeting Thursday May
> 15th
>
>
> >I will be attending, it will be my first meeting.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bill Pribble
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf
> > Of Joe Vanderstelt
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:21 AM
> > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] CUPS Presentation - Next GRLUG Meeting Thursday May
> > 15th
> >
> > I have been using cups to modify print jobs in transit which has some
> > usefully applications. If any one is interested I'll bring some
> > information to the meeting.
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:55 PM, eah <darth_linux at ameritech.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tuesday 29 April 2008 14:20:36 pm Casey DuBois wrote:
> >>  > Hello ALL,
> >>  >
> >>  > GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) May Meeting
> >>  >
> >>  > Food will be provided so please RSVP to casey at grlug.org so I can
> > make
> >>  > sure to have enough.
> >>  >
> >>  > Date and Time:
> >>  > Thursday May 15th
> >>  > 6:00 PM - 8:00 PM (food will be ready @ 6:00)
> >>  >
> >>  > Location:
> >>  > N-Vint, Inc., 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
> >>  >
> > http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industr
> > ial
> >>
> >>+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.
> > 76562
> >>
> >>5&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr
> > &om=1
> >>  >
> >>  > Presentation: Enterprise Printing via CUPS "Implementing CUPS and
> >>  > using cups from Windows, Linux, HPUX and AIX"
> >>  > Additional Topics:
> >>  > gOS
> >>  > USB Linux
> >>  > Open source vs Closed source for Linux
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  > *** REMINDER *** AIM West meeting TOMORROW
> >>  > An Open Discussion of Open Source: How FREE Software Can Help Your
> >>  > Business! Wednesday, April 30th
> >>  > Location: Eberhard Center, GVSU
> >>  > Networking Time:  5:30 p.m.
> >>  > Panel Discussion:  6:30 p.m.
> >>  >
> >>  > Panelists Are:
> >>  > Carl Erickson (Atomic Object)
> >>  > Brian Anderson (RCM Technologies)
> >>  > Andy Mann (Calhoun Intermediate School District)
> >>  > Eric Hartwell (ITT Technical Institute)
> >>  > More details @ www.aimwest.org
> >>  >
> >>  > See you soon,
> >>  > Casey DuBois
> >>  > casey at grlug.org
> >>  > _______________________________________________
> >>  > grlug mailing list
> >>  > grlug at grlug.org
> >>  > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >>
> >>  I'll do my best to be there :-)
> >>
> >>
> >>  eah
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>  grlug mailing list
> >>  grlug at grlug.org
> >>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

Joe,

Would you be willing to make the information available to those of us who
couldn't make the meeting?

(I think this is my first post to the list, after lurking for several
months. Hope I'm doing this right. :) )

~~Brian
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080520/6be9d446/attachment-0001.htm 

From jodanlime at gmail.com  Tue May 20 21:53:08 2008
From: jodanlime at gmail.com (Jordan Hudson)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 21:53:08 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Actiontec external modem
Message-ID: <d6184eb20805201853v41405b4bj7220207e318e20a7@mail.gmail.com>

I have an Actiontec external dial-up  modem that I would like to use with
Fedora Core 9. The model is EX560LKU. It used to work just fine with just
about every Distro I tried, but I took a break from linux for a while
(couple years) and now Ubuntu, Fedora, Mepis, none of it will find my modem.
It can connect with either Serial Connection or USB. Any help is
appreciated.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080520/bbe9f59b/attachment.htm 

From josephharnish at gmail.com  Tue May 20 22:05:54 2008
From: josephharnish at gmail.com (Joseph Harnish)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 22:05:54 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] CUPS Presentation - Next GRLUG Meeting Thursday May 15th
In-Reply-To: <9329fcc90805201448r2c46125fwf3614acd744ac97@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0ffba670804291120h4e27d3admc3dcbba7fad8ff08@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804292155.42622.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	<cea1322a0804300520x498360b3o182247a1f4063290@mail.gmail.com>
	<2DAD62F9671F2B4086B98467C14EE7D30E0FCA57@nahollex01.NA.Haworthinc.com>
	<6B8029A3F4A74F9DB60120E46EAA26F0@kdl.net>
	<9329fcc90805201448r2c46125fwf3614acd744ac97@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bad7536b0805201905y7502b7fbh8e1f526a8034ace8@mail.gmail.com>

Sure it is available as a google presentation that I can have Casey
put on the site.  But for right now you can go to
http://bigjoe1008.googlepages.com/cupsintheenterprise<http://bigjoe1008.googlepages.com/>


The HPUX depot file mention is at: http://bigjoe1008.googlepages.com/rpms

Casey attached is the html code to embed the presentation on the wiki so if
I update slides they will be reflected on the site.


--Joe
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080520/d2b092f0/attachment.htm 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: presentation.txt
Url: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080520/d2b092f0/attachment.txt 

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Tue May 20 23:06:15 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 23:06:15 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Actiontec external modem
In-Reply-To: <d6184eb20805201853v41405b4bj7220207e318e20a7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d6184eb20805201853v41405b4bj7220207e318e20a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805202006v27051081ub462f77a9eb8a7a@mail.gmail.com>

You might need use internal modem

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 9:53 PM, Jordan Hudson <jodanlime at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have an Actiontec external dial-up  modem that I would like to use with
> Fedora Core 9. The model is EX560LKU. It used to work just fine with just
> about every Distro I tried, but I took a break from linux for a while
> (couple years) and now Ubuntu, Fedora, Mepis, none of it will find my modem.
> It can connect with either Serial Connection or USB. Any help is
> appreciated.
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080520/b540e175/attachment.htm 

From jodanlime at gmail.com  Tue May 20 23:09:07 2008
From: jodanlime at gmail.com (Jordan Hudson)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 23:09:07 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Actiontec external modem
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0805202006v27051081ub462f77a9eb8a7a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d6184eb20805201853v41405b4bj7220207e318e20a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0805202006v27051081ub462f77a9eb8a7a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6184eb20805202009k19d9eb2dxd621bf089ff8a328@mail.gmail.com>

from what I've done in the past, internal modems do not work nearly as well
in linux, as most of them are soft modems and not hardware controlled.

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Professor Inuyasha <profinuyasha at gmail.com>
wrote:

> You might need use internal modem
>
> On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 9:53 PM, Jordan Hudson <jodanlime at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have an Actiontec external dial-up  modem that I would like to use with
>> Fedora Core 9. The model is EX560LKU. It used to work just fine with just
>> about every Distro I tried, but I took a break from linux for a while
>> (couple years) and now Ubuntu, Fedora, Mepis, none of it will find my modem.
>> It can connect with either Serial Connection or USB. Any help is
>> appreciated.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> grlug mailing list
>> grlug at grlug.org
>> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------
> Professor Inuyasha
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080520/6d429493/attachment-0001.htm 

From josh at hulst.ws  Tue May 20 23:22:03 2008
From: josh at hulst.ws (Joshua Hulst)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 23:22:03 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Actiontec external modem
In-Reply-To: <d6184eb20805201853v41405b4bj7220207e318e20a7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d6184eb20805201853v41405b4bj7220207e318e20a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200805202322.07581.josh@hulst.ws>

On Tuesday 20 May 2008 09:53:08 pm Jordan Hudson wrote:
> I have an Actiontec external dial-up  modem that I would like to use with
> Fedora Core 9. The model is EX560LKU. It used to work just fine with just
> about every Distro I tried, but I took a break from linux for a while
> (couple years) and now Ubuntu, Fedora, Mepis, none of it will find my
> modem. It can connect with either Serial Connection or USB. Any help is
> appreciated.

A quick search came up with this page, 
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=24504&sid=4c2b271b0b616c7d6f3fa4dd49520fdb.

It also would know what you've tried so we don't duplicate effort and know how 
far along you've gotten.  I would make sure the module listed in the linked 
page is loaded.  If that doesn't work, make sure the modem shows up when you 
enter in `lsusb` when it's connected by USB.  Also, look in dmesg for any 
errors or information when you plug in the modem.

Josh


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 194 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080520/cdc8aca9/attachment.pgp 

From jjfoerch at earthlink.net  Wed May 21 11:04:11 2008
From: jjfoerch at earthlink.net (John J Foerch)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 11:04:11 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG]  Actiontec external modem
In-Reply-To: <d6184eb20805201853v41405b4bj7220207e318e20a7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d6184eb20805201853v41405b4bj7220207e318e20a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18484.14827.453820.852504@gargle.gargle.HOWL>

Jordan Hudson writes:
 > I have an Actiontec external dial-up  modem that I would like to use with
 > Fedora Core 9. The model is EX560LKU. It used to work just fine with just
 > about every Distro I tried, but I took a break from linux for a while
 > (couple years) and now Ubuntu, Fedora, Mepis, none of it will find my modem.
 > It can connect with either Serial Connection or USB. Any help is
 > appreciated.

Hi Jordan,

  A hardware modem connected over a serial line does not need a
driver.  Here is a page I found helpful when setting up my external
serial modem under debian.

 http://www.aboutdebian.com/modems.htm

-- 
John Foerch

From geektoyz at gmail.com  Wed May 21 18:54:47 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 18:54:47 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Actiontec external modem
In-Reply-To: <18484.14827.453820.852504@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
References: <d6184eb20805201853v41405b4bj7220207e318e20a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<18484.14827.453820.852504@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805211554q44d969bai37cae33f3d4c9941@mail.gmail.com>

I noticed on the link Joshua posted the user inserted kernel module
"pl2303".  I have a[n] USB-to-Serial adapter which uses the same
module and works like a charm.   See if you have that module.  It will
create some funky serial port like /dev/ttyUSB0 or something like
that:

find /lib/modules/2.6.* -name pl*

Which should turn up something like:

/lib/modules/2.6.20-16-server/kernel/drivers/usb/serial/pl2303.ko

then try to manually insert the module.  By the way, when you plug in
the modem, it really *should* have been loaded automagically (check
"dmesg" and "lsusb" like Joshua mentioned).

(as root): /sbin/modprobe pl2303   or   /sbin/insmod [full/path/to]pl2303.ko

then check your log:

tail /var/log/messages   or   tail /var/log/syslog   or   dmesg | tail

post what you see.

cheers,
G-


On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:04 AM, John J Foerch <jjfoerch at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Jordan Hudson writes:
>  > I have an Actiontec external dial-up  modem that I would like to use with
>  > Fedora Core 9. The model is EX560LKU. It used to work just fine with just
>  > about every Distro I tried, but I took a break from linux for a while
>  > (couple years) and now Ubuntu, Fedora, Mepis, none of it will find my modem.
>  > It can connect with either Serial Connection or USB. Any help is
>  > appreciated.
>
> Hi Jordan,
>
>  A hardware modem connected over a serial line does not need a
> driver.  Here is a page I found helpful when setting up my external
> serial modem under debian.
>
>  http://www.aboutdebian.com/modems.htm
>
> --
> John Foerch
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From jtr at jrichards.org  Fri May 23 23:30:02 2008
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 23:30:02 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] DVD/CD drive failure?
Message-ID: <20080524033002.GA9803@jrichards.org>

My Gateway MT6840 laptop was generating errors for the Optiarc DVD RW
drive.  It is still under warranty so after going through Gateway's
Tech Support scripts twice via email, they sent me a new drive.  Upon
booting with the new drive, I am getting the same error message:

rondo:/# tail /var/log/messages
May 23 23:01:19 rondo kernel: Restarting tasks ... done.
May 23 23:01:20 rondo kernel: hda: drive_cmd: status=0x51 { DriveReady
SeekComplete Error }
May 23 23:01:20 rondo kernel: hda: drive_cmd: error=0x04 {
AbortedCommand }
May 23 23:01:20 rondo kernel: ide: failed opcode was: 0xef

I compared this message to what I had in the earlier logs and it is
identical, i.e., the new drive has the exact same problem as the
original drive.  The original drive would often hang when trying to
mount a disc.  Playing music would work, but it would take several
minutes to begin each track (once a track started it played flawlessly).
Each track would have this delay.  A DVD movie would start playing but
would always hang shortly after starting.  With the new drive I get a
delay when mounting a disc or when starting a DVD movie but once a disc
is mounted or a movie starts it seems to work properly thereafter.
Music CDs play properly with no delay between tracks.  When I bought the
laptop it had Windows Vista installed.  I immediately upgraded Vista to
Debian and had a terrible time with the drive (it would spin extremely
fast and then stop spinning for several minutes and then spin up again
and start working for a time).  Other than a delay when mounting CDs
and starting DVD movies, and error messages (I also get "kernel: hda:
lost interrupt"), the drive seems to be working fine.  Is it at all
possible that this is a kernel issue?  Perhaps something is not
configured quite right.  Any ideas?  Google just says the drive is
failing and should be replaced.  Since the drive is new (or would
Gateway send me a bad replacement?) could this be a motherboard problem?
-- 
john-thomas
------
There is no man so good, who, were he to submit all his thoughts and
actions to the laws, would not deserve hanging ten times in his life.
Michel de Montaigne, essayist (1533-1592)

From tim at izzyig.com  Sat May 24 00:17:30 2008
From: tim at izzyig.com (Tim)
Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 00:17:30 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] DVD/CD drive failure?
In-Reply-To: <20080524033002.GA9803@jrichards.org>
References: <20080524033002.GA9803@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <483796DA.9030803@izzyig.com>

john-thomas richards wrote:
> My Gateway MT6840 laptop was generating errors for the Optiarc DVD RW
> drive.  It is still under warranty so after going through Gateway's
> Tech Support scripts twice via email, they sent me a new drive.  Upon
> booting with the new drive, I am getting the same error message:
>
> rondo:/# tail /var/log/messages
> May 23 23:01:19 rondo kernel: Restarting tasks ... done.
> May 23 23:01:20 rondo kernel: hda: drive_cmd: status=0x51 { DriveReady
> SeekComplete Error }
> May 23 23:01:20 rondo kernel: hda: drive_cmd: error=0x04 {
> AbortedCommand }
> May 23 23:01:20 rondo kernel: ide: failed opcode was: 0xef
>
> I compared this message to what I had in the earlier logs and it is
> identical, i.e., the new drive has the exact same problem as the
> original drive.  The original drive would often hang when trying to
> mount a disc.  Playing music would work, but it would take several
> minutes to begin each track (once a track started it played flawlessly).
> Each track would have this delay.  A DVD movie would start playing but
> would always hang shortly after starting.  With the new drive I get a
> delay when mounting a disc or when starting a DVD movie but once a disc
> is mounted or a movie starts it seems to work properly thereafter.
> Music CDs play properly with no delay between tracks.  When I bought the
> laptop it had Windows Vista installed.  I immediately upgraded Vista to
> Debian and had a terrible time with the drive (it would spin extremely
> fast and then stop spinning for several minutes and then spin up again
> and start working for a time).  Other than a delay when mounting CDs
> and starting DVD movies, and error messages (I also get "kernel: hda:
> lost interrupt"), the drive seems to be working fine.  Is it at all
> possible that this is a kernel issue?  Perhaps something is not
> configured quite right.  Any ideas?  Google just says the drive is
> failing and should be replaced.  Since the drive is new (or would
> Gateway send me a bad replacement?) could this be a motherboard problem?
>   
I'd reset the bios to defaults then try a live cd. Also check to see if 
there are any firmware upgrades for the drive.

From casey at grlug.org  Thu May 29 09:36:05 2008
From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 09:36:05 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] A linux cluster in a IKEA Helmer cabinet.
Message-ID: <f0ffba670805290636w1188e5edyd2c25673c3b05884@mail.gmail.com>

This is the story of Helmer.
A linux cluster in a IKEA Helmer cabinet.

http://helmer.sfe.se/

Enjoy....

From josephharnish at gmail.com  Thu May 29 14:15:00 2008
From: josephharnish at gmail.com (Joseph Harnish)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 14:15:00 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Firefox Launch party
Message-ID: <bad7536b0805291115l1653a33ao8101fc70e0180863@mail.gmail.com>

Anybody want to host a Firefox launch party?

>From www.spreadfirefox.com :
 Host a party to download Firefox; you provide the people and we'll
provide the party favors.

http://www.mozillaparty.com/en-US/


--Joe
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080529/ccd0256f/attachment.htm 

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Thu May 29 16:00:38 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 16:00:38 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] SoC for a project
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0805291300r28fde281y6cc370b15394420e@mail.gmail.com>

Looking for a linux-compatible SoC for a project that could
potentially see some volume production.  All parts of the design will
be made freely available under a liberal license (mostly likely GPL).
Just wondering if anyone on the list has any experience?

What it needs:

- Linux compatible
- As low a pin / ball count as possible.
- LCD controller
- External memory interface or embedded DRAM suitable to run a small
userspace (32Mb+)
- SD card interface (SPI will work in a pinch)
- USB host and device ports
- 20+ GPIO pins
- Built-in ROM for bootloader (64k+ would be nice, but can get by with less)

I've been looking at these: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS3787254777.html

Any other suggestions?

--tim

From flanderb at gmail.com  Thu May 29 16:59:13 2008
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 16:59:13 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fat32 to ntfs
Message-ID: <e8898d550805291359v2d39d1a5l594ff2e98b490772@mail.gmail.com>

Short question:
How can I convert a large partition from fat32 to ntfs without loss of
data?  Basically does changing cluster size reformat the partition?

Long story:
I dual boot Windows XP and Linux.  I've been doing this for years and
I have a rather large hard drive with a smallish ntfs "c:" and some
smaller xfs partitions for linux.  The majority of the drive I
formatted with fat32 and have this as my "shared" partition.  I did
this because at the time linux didn't have good read/write for ntfs.

Several upgrades later the latest Kubuntu has ntfs-3g with, if I hear
correctly, great support for ntfs.  I am getting sick of the fsck's on
boot, seemly always happening when I boot up for quick directions to a
meeting that I am almost late for.

Googleing, I found that fat32 to ntfs is a simple "convert drive
letter: /fs:ntfs" this can be done without lose of data.

I also found that the optimal cluster sizes of the two file systems
are different.  I can't seem to find any information as to whether
changing cluster sizes destroys the data in a partition or not.

Is there a free solution for changing the cluster sizes?

Thanks in advance
-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From mikemol at gmail.com  Thu May 29 17:06:52 2008
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 17:06:52 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fat32 to ntfs
In-Reply-To: <e8898d550805291359v2d39d1a5l594ff2e98b490772@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805291359v2d39d1a5l594ff2e98b490772@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f5e00c450805291406x46ad71e3o205aaf68a9cda420@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Benjamin Flanders <flanderb at gmail.com> wrote:
> Short question:
> How can I convert a large partition from fat32 to ntfs without loss of
> data?  Basically does changing cluster size reformat the partition?
>
> Googleing, I found that fat32 to ntfs is a simple "convert drive
> letter: /fs:ntfs" this can be done without lose of data.

Is this a Windows command?  I hadn't heard of it.

Otherwise, NTFS and FAT32 are fundamentally different; Your best bet
would be to attack a large external disk to the system, format it as
NTFS, and use cp -ra to copy the files from your FAT32 disk to your
NTFS disk.  Then reformat your FAT32 disk as NTFS, and use cp -ra to
copy the files back.

>
> I also found that the optimal cluster sizes of the two file systems
> are different.  I can't seem to find any information as to whether
> changing cluster sizes destroys the data in a partition or not.
>

Keyword: optimal.

It doesn't really matter unless you're dealing with millions of really
tiny files.  So unless you're in that situation, don't worry about it.

-- 
:wq

From networkman at triton.net  Thu May 29 17:59:23 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (Rich Nagel)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 17:59:23 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fat32 to ntfs
References: <e8898d550805291359v2d39d1a5l594ff2e98b490772@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805291406x46ad71e3o205aaf68a9cda420@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3EB9312B1D714872AD994EAB2092D79C@kdl.net>

I just "googled" the same command in quotes and got the following link at 
Microsoft's site:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307881

Frankly, were it me, at the very least I'd take an image or make a backup of 
the partition in question before attempting this conversion command.  My 
preference though would be to image/backup the data, delete the partition in 
question and create another natively NTFS (or whatever you want) from the 
start.

Rich

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Mol" <mikemol at gmail.com>
To: <grlug at grlug.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] fat32 to ntfs


> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Benjamin Flanders <flanderb at gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>> Short question:
>> How can I convert a large partition from fat32 to ntfs without loss of
>> data?  Basically does changing cluster size reformat the partition?
>>
>> Googleing, I found that fat32 to ntfs is a simple "convert drive
>> letter: /fs:ntfs" this can be done without lose of data.
>
> Is this a Windows command?  I hadn't heard of it.
>
> Otherwise, NTFS and FAT32 are fundamentally different; Your best bet
> would be to attack a large external disk to the system, format it as
> NTFS, and use cp -ra to copy the files from your FAT32 disk to your
> NTFS disk.  Then reformat your FAT32 disk as NTFS, and use cp -ra to
> copy the files back.
>
>>
>> I also found that the optimal cluster sizes of the two file systems
>> are different.  I can't seem to find any information as to whether
>> changing cluster sizes destroys the data in a partition or not.
>>
>
> Keyword: optimal.
>
> It doesn't really matter unless you're dealing with millions of really
> tiny files.  So unless you're in that situation, don't worry about it.
>
> -- 
> :wq
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> 


From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Thu May 29 18:38:35 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 18:38:35 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fat32 to ntfs
In-Reply-To: <3EB9312B1D714872AD994EAB2092D79C@kdl.net>
References: <e8898d550805291359v2d39d1a5l594ff2e98b490772@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805291406x46ad71e3o205aaf68a9cda420@mail.gmail.com>
	<3EB9312B1D714872AD994EAB2092D79C@kdl.net>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805291538m565a2246o852575bc48525bd0@mail.gmail.com>

Well I'm Windows User & Linux User, I would recommend you to grab second
hard drive and backup your files from primary then format primary from fat32
into ntfs then restore your backup files

if OS installed on primary, then you would have to re-install

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 5:59 PM, Rich Nagel <networkman at triton.net> wrote:

> I just "googled" the same command in quotes and got the following link at
> Microsoft's site:
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307881
>
> Frankly, were it me, at the very least I'd take an image or make a backup
> of
> the partition in question before attempting this conversion command.  My
> preference though would be to image/backup the data, delete the partition
> in
> question and create another natively NTFS (or whatever you want) from the
> start.
>
> Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Mol" <mikemol at gmail.com>
> To: <grlug at grlug.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] fat32 to ntfs
>
>
> > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Benjamin Flanders <flanderb at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Short question:
> >> How can I convert a large partition from fat32 to ntfs without loss of
> >> data?  Basically does changing cluster size reformat the partition?
> >>
> >> Googleing, I found that fat32 to ntfs is a simple "convert drive
> >> letter: /fs:ntfs" this can be done without lose of data.
> >
> > Is this a Windows command?  I hadn't heard of it.
> >
> > Otherwise, NTFS and FAT32 are fundamentally different; Your best bet
> > would be to attack a large external disk to the system, format it as
> > NTFS, and use cp -ra to copy the files from your FAT32 disk to your
> > NTFS disk.  Then reformat your FAT32 disk as NTFS, and use cp -ra to
> > copy the files back.
> >
> >>
> >> I also found that the optimal cluster sizes of the two file systems
> >> are different.  I can't seem to find any information as to whether
> >> changing cluster sizes destroys the data in a partition or not.
> >>
> >
> > Keyword: optimal.
> >
> > It doesn't really matter unless you're dealing with millions of really
> > tiny files.  So unless you're in that situation, don't worry about it.
> >
> > --
> > :wq
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080529/52115f34/attachment.htm 

From blubdog at gmail.com  Thu May 29 22:58:24 2008
From: blubdog at gmail.com (Bruce Smith)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 22:58:24 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fat32 to ntfs
In-Reply-To: <3EB9312B1D714872AD994EAB2092D79C@kdl.net>
References: <e8898d550805291359v2d39d1a5l594ff2e98b490772@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805291406x46ad71e3o205aaf68a9cda420@mail.gmail.com>
	<3EB9312B1D714872AD994EAB2092D79C@kdl.net>
Message-ID: <b52f2d360805291958g32114d84n53627e5be1cb592f@mail.gmail.com>

> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307881

Microsoft has had the ability to convert from FAT16/32 to NTFS for
many years.  I remember doing it back on a NT box (back when NT was
the latest).

I've never had a problem with it, but as with anything like this, I'd
backup first.

I've also done it on the Windows drive (C:) without any problems.
IIRC, you run the command and reboot, and the actual conversion is
done during the boot process.

Also, make sure that's what you really want to do.  I'm fairly sure
there is no easy way to convert back from NTFS to FAT32 (without a
back/format/restore, or fresh install if it's a Windows partition).

 - BS

From darth_linux at ameritech.net  Fri May 30 06:59:03 2008
From: darth_linux at ameritech.net (eah)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 06:59:03 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] I neerd Linux and system security people
Message-ID: <200805300659.04510.darth_linux@ameritech.net>

Hi all, 


If you have a Master's degree in computers please contact me immediately. (The 
Linux person only needs a Bachelor's degree if they have certs like RHCE or 
MSCE) 

thanks, 

eah

From darth_linux at ameritech.net  Fri May 30 07:22:39 2008
From: darth_linux at ameritech.net (eah)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 07:22:39 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Firefox Launch party
In-Reply-To: <bad7536b0805291115l1653a33ao8101fc70e0180863@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bad7536b0805291115l1653a33ao8101fc70e0180863@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200805300722.40261.darth_linux@ameritech.net>

On Thursday 29 May 2008 14:15:00 pm Joseph Harnish wrote:
> Anybody want to host a Firefox launch party?
>
> >From www.spreadfirefox.com :
>
>  Host a party to download Firefox; you provide the people and we'll
> provide the party favors.
>
> http://www.mozillaparty.com/en-US/
>
>
> --Joe

yeah lets do that!!
We need to party more especially during the summer. 


eah

From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Fri May 30 08:42:56 2008
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 08:42:56 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fat32 to ntfs
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360805291958g32114d84n53627e5be1cb592f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805291359v2d39d1a5l594ff2e98b490772@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805291406x46ad71e3o205aaf68a9cda420@mail.gmail.com>
	<3EB9312B1D714872AD994EAB2092D79C@kdl.net>
	<b52f2d360805291958g32114d84n53627e5be1cb592f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1212151376.5097.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> Also, make sure that's what you really want to do.  I'm fairly sure
> there is no easy way to convert back from NTFS to FAT32 (without a
> back/format/restore, or fresh install if it's a Windows partition).

There is also a noticeable performance hit if you have a large
drive/partition.


From geektoyz at gmail.com  Fri May 30 20:14:08 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 20:14:08 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fat32 to ntfs
In-Reply-To: <1212151376.5097.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <e8898d550805291359v2d39d1a5l594ff2e98b490772@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805291406x46ad71e3o205aaf68a9cda420@mail.gmail.com>
	<3EB9312B1D714872AD994EAB2092D79C@kdl.net>
	<b52f2d360805291958g32114d84n53627e5be1cb592f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1212151376.5097.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10805301714m6b6e260crc234c18fdf30faa4@mail.gmail.com>

Back in my CompUSA tech days... I would do this with Partition Magic.
It never lost my data.  Well, the customer's data.  ;-)  I wouldn't be
surprised if Gparted LiveCD could do it also.

G-

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Adam Tauno Williams
<adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Also, make sure that's what you really want to do.  I'm fairly sure
>> there is no easy way to convert back from NTFS to FAT32 (without a
>> back/format/restore, or fresh install if it's a Windows partition).
>
> There is also a noticeable performance hit if you have a large
> drive/partition.
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From bigjoe1008 at gmail.com  Tue May 20 19:50:25 2008
From: bigjoe1008 at gmail.com (Joe Harnish)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 19:50:25 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] CUPS Presentation - Next GRLUG Meeting Thursday May 15th
In-Reply-To: <9329fcc90805201448r2c46125fwf3614acd744ac97@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0ffba670804291120h4e27d3admc3dcbba7fad8ff08@mail.gmail.com>
	<200804292155.42622.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	<cea1322a0804300520x498360b3o182247a1f4063290@mail.gmail.com>
	<2DAD62F9671F2B4086B98467C14EE7D30E0FCA57@nahollex01.NA.Haworthinc.com>
	<6B8029A3F4A74F9DB60120E46EAA26F0@kdl.net>
	<9329fcc90805201448r2c46125fwf3614acd744ac97@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <763fc8580805201650r1227d0a6l9800333123f19ee2@mail.gmail.com>

Sure it is available as a google presentation that I can have Casey
put on the site.  But for right now you can go to
http://bigjoe1008.googlepages.com and click on presentations.  I am on
my blackberry right now or else I would just send a link to the
presentation.  Plus there is the hpux cups depot file there.


--Joe



On 5/20/08, Brian Haskin <bhaskin at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Rich Nagel <networkman at triton.net> wrote:
>
>> Gosh, I guess that means I'll have to play nice.
>>
>> Actually, it's my 2nd meeting. :)
>>
>> Rich
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bill Pribble" <Bill.Pribble at Haworth.com>
>> To: <grlug at grlug.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 10:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] CUPS Presentation - Next GRLUG Meeting Thursday May
>> 15th
>>
>>
>> >I will be attending, it will be my first meeting.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Bill Pribble
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf
>> > Of Joe Vanderstelt
>> > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:21 AM
>> > To: grlug at grlug.org
>> > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] CUPS Presentation - Next GRLUG Meeting Thursday May
>> > 15th
>> >
>> > I have been using cups to modify print jobs in transit which has some
>> > usefully applications. If any one is interested I'll bring some
>> > information to the meeting.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:55 PM, eah <darth_linux at ameritech.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Tuesday 29 April 2008 14:20:36 pm Casey DuBois wrote:
>> >>  > Hello ALL,
>> >>  >
>> >>  > GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) May Meeting
>> >>  >
>> >>  > Food will be provided so please RSVP to casey at grlug.org so I can
>> > make
>> >>  > sure to have enough.
>> >>  >
>> >>  > Date and Time:
>> >>  > Thursday May 15th
>> >>  > 6:00 PM - 8:00 PM (food will be ready @ 6:00)
>> >>  >
>> >>  > Location:
>> >>  > N-Vint, Inc., 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
>> >>  >
>> > http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industr
>> > ial
>> >>
>> >>+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.
>> > 76562
>> >>
>> >>5&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr
>> > &om=1
>> >>  >
>> >>  > Presentation: Enterprise Printing via CUPS "Implementing CUPS and
>> >>  > using cups from Windows, Linux, HPUX and AIX"
>> >>  > Additional Topics:
>> >>  > gOS
>> >>  > USB Linux
>> >>  > Open source vs Closed source for Linux
>> >>  >
>> >>  >
>> >>  > *** REMINDER *** AIM West meeting TOMORROW
>> >>  > An Open Discussion of Open Source: How FREE Software Can Help Your
>> >>  > Business! Wednesday, April 30th
>> >>  > Location: Eberhard Center, GVSU
>> >>  > Networking Time:  5:30 p.m.
>> >>  > Panel Discussion:  6:30 p.m.
>> >>  >
>> >>  > Panelists Are:
>> >>  > Carl Erickson (Atomic Object)
>> >>  > Brian Anderson (RCM Technologies)
>> >>  > Andy Mann (Calhoun Intermediate School District)
>> >>  > Eric Hartwell (ITT Technical Institute)
>> >>  > More details @ www.aimwest.org
>> >>  >
>> >>  > See you soon,
>> >>  > Casey DuBois
>> >>  > casey at grlug.org
>> >>  > _______________________________________________
>> >>  > grlug mailing list
>> >>  > grlug at grlug.org
>> >>  > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>> >>
>> >>  I'll do my best to be there :-)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  eah
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>  grlug mailing list
>> >>  grlug at grlug.org
>> >>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > grlug mailing list
>> > grlug at grlug.org
>> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > grlug mailing list
>> > grlug at grlug.org
>> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
>
> Joe,
>
> Would you be willing to make the information available to those of us who
> couldn't make the meeting?
>
> (I think this is my first post to the list, after lurking for several
> months. Hope I'm doing this right. :) )
>
> ~~Brian
>

-- 
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

From mail at prbarnes.us  Wed May 14 21:23:39 2008
From: mail at prbarnes.us (phil)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 01:23:39 -0000
Subject: [GRLUG] Need help to stop BSOD
In-Reply-To: <15f732370804300957o5be3b87al3acc139fbaa2916e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aecf8abe0804300906i18c485b8oa4e0e0f2170a16@mail.gmail.com>	<f5e00c450804300912i66946c43w245b1c9166588038@mail.gmail.com>	<aecf8abe0804300935icb58bf1g276de5c3323a48eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<15f732370804300957o5be3b87al3acc139fbaa2916e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <482B9214.8060305@prbarnes.us>

You can use a utility called Debugging Tools for Windoze to analyze 
crash dump files (*.dmp) that can tell which driver may be causing the 
issue.

Phil

Tom Warren wrote:
> Most BSOD's are due to faulty hardware. Linux does help let you know 
> more of what hardware may be failing, but since this isn't the case 
> here, the first thing I would do is download the memtest86 iso and run 
> a memory test to verify that you don't have a bad DIMM. Once you 
> verify its not the memory you need to run a stress test on the cpu. I 
> recommend Prime95 for windows.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Professor Inuyasha 
> <profinuyasha at gmail.com <mailto:profinuyasha at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Guys, I know it is not relate to Linux but I really want stop that
>     damned BSOD!
>
>     I am running Windows Vista Ultimate SP1 and I kept get BSOD when I
>     play game
>
>     two BSOD caused by
>     -Intel ICH9
>     -ATK0110 ACPI Utility
>
>     My computer specs:
>     ASUS MAXIMUS FORMULA LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Intel Motherboard
>     Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 Conroe 3.0GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor
>     Model BX80557E6850
>     Corsair XMS2 DHX 4096MB Dual Channel PC6400 DDR2 800MHz Memory (2
>     x 2048MB)
>     Seagate Barracuda ES ST3500630NS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard
>     Drive
>     Seagate Barracuda ES.2 ST31000340NS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard
>     Drive
>     DIAMOND Viper 2900XT1GPE Radeon HD 2900XT 1GB 512-bit GDDR4 PCI
>     Express x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card
>     Ultra X3 ULT40064 1000-Watt Power Supply - ATX, SATA-Ready, PCI-E
>     Ready, Energy Efficient, Modular
>     SAMSUNG 20X DVD?R DVD Burner Black SATA Model SH-S203B
>
>
>     I think I might got wrong PSU......
>
>     my PSU link:
>     http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?Sku=ULT40064
>     and it say SLi Certificated
>
>     my ATI support Crossfire Certificated
>
>     ======================
>
>     I called to Ultra company about PSU, no error found yet
>
>     I am going to call to ASUS, Intel, and ATI company to find what's
>     going on with my Luna PC and find way to stop BSOD
>
>     On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol at gmail.com
>     <mailto:mikemol at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     > Professor Inuyasha, when writing emails to the mailing list,
>     turn off Rich Formatting in GMail. (Click on the link that says
>     "Plain Text").
>     >
>     > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Professor Inuyasha
>     <profinuyasha at gmail.com <mailto:profinuyasha at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     > > <div>Hi Guys, I know it is not relate to Linux but I really
>     want stop that damned BSOD!</div>
>     > >  <div>&nbsp;</div>
>     > >  <div>I am running Windows Vista Ultimate SP1 and I kept get
>     BSOD when I play game</div>
>     > >  <div>&nbsp;</div>
>     > >  <div>two BSOD caused by</div>
>     > >  <div>-Intel ICH9</div>
>     > >  <div>-ATK0110 ACPI Utility</div>
>     > >  <div>&nbsp;</div>
>     > >  <div>My computer specs:</div>
>     > >  <div><font color="#000000">ASUS MAXIMUS FORMULA LGA 775 Intel
>     X38 ATX Intel Motherboard </font></div>
>     > >  <div>Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 Conroe 3.0GHz LGA 775 65W
>     Dual-Core Processor Model BX80557E6850 </div>
>     > >  <div>Corsair XMS2 DHX 4096MB Dual Channel PC6400 DDR2 800MHz
>     Memory (2 x 2048MB)</div>
>     > >  <div>Seagate Barracuda ES ST3500630NS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA
>     3.0Gb/s Hard Drive </div>
>     > >  <div>Seagate Barracuda ES.2 ST31000340NS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA
>     3.0Gb/s Hard Drive </div>
>     > >  <div>DIAMOND Viper 2900XT1GPE Radeon HD 2900XT 1GB 512-bit
>     GDDR4 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card </div>
>     > >  <div>Ultra X3 ULT40064 1000-Watt Power Supply - ATX,
>     SATA-Ready, PCI-E Ready, Energy Efficient, Modular</div>
>     > >  <div>SAMSUNG 20X DVD?R DVD Burner Black SATA Model SH-S203B</div>
>     > >  <div>&nbsp;</div>
>     > >  <div>&nbsp;</div>
>     > >  <div>I think I might got wrong PSU......</div>
>     > >  <div>&nbsp;</div>
>     > >  <div>my PSU link: <a
>     href="http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?Sku=ULT40064">http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?Sku=ULT40064</a></div>
>     > >  <div>and it say SLi Certificated</div>
>     > >  <div>&nbsp;</div>
>     > >  <div>my ATI support Crossfire Certificated</div>
>     > >  <div><br clear="all"><br>--
>     <br>------------------<br>Professor Inuyasha </div>
>     > >
>     > > _______________________________________________
>     > >  grlug mailing list
>     > >  grlug at grlug.org <mailto:grlug at grlug.org>
>     > >  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>     > >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > --
>     > :wq
>     >
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > grlug mailing list
>     > grlug at grlug.org <mailto:grlug at grlug.org>
>     > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>     >
>
>
>
>     --
>     ------------------
>     Professor Inuyasha
>     _______________________________________________
>     grlug mailing list
>     grlug at grlug.org <mailto:grlug at grlug.org>
>     http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Tom Warren
> meijer ITS Enterprise Storage
> Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE)
> tomewarren at gmail.com <mailto:tomewarren at gmail.com>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Fri May 30 21:58:55 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 21:58:55 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] fat32 to ntfs
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10805301714m6b6e260crc234c18fdf30faa4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e8898d550805291359v2d39d1a5l594ff2e98b490772@mail.gmail.com>
	<f5e00c450805291406x46ad71e3o205aaf68a9cda420@mail.gmail.com>
	<3EB9312B1D714872AD994EAB2092D79C@kdl.net>
	<b52f2d360805291958g32114d84n53627e5be1cb592f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1212151376.5097.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<8b72b8d10805301714m6b6e260crc234c18fdf30faa4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805301858mecf05ebh6fa34c6cee966595@mail.gmail.com>

If you need convert fat32 to ntfs, I can do it for you because I have 1.5TB
hard drive

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Godwin <geektoyz at gmail.com> wrote:

> Back in my CompUSA tech days... I would do this with Partition Magic.
> It never lost my data.  Well, the customer's data.  ;-)  I wouldn't be
> surprised if Gparted LiveCD could do it also.
>
> G-
>
> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Adam Tauno Williams
> <adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Also, make sure that's what you really want to do.  I'm fairly sure
> >> there is no easy way to convert back from NTFS to FAT32 (without a
> >> back/format/restore, or fresh install if it's a Windows partition).
> >
> > There is also a noticeable performance hit if you have a large
> > drive/partition.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ubber::Geek
> http://grlug.org/
>  _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080530/932b0837/attachment.htm 

From rh90p at comcast.net  Sat May 31 16:20:04 2008
From: rh90p at comcast.net (rh90p at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 20:20:04 +0000
Subject: [GRLUG] Choice of MB - Trouble Installing
Message-ID: <053120082020.5251.4841B2F40006E1BF000014832207024553CECACDCA059C@comcast.net>

What Motherboards do you run Linux on?  I have 3 ASUS machines that I have been unable to install any flavor of Linux on since SuSE 9.3.  People I know from work are saying that they have been unable to install on their machines also.  

I have an ASUS A8V Deluxe 64bit dual core 3800+AMD w/ 3GB ram.  On that one Fedora 9 installer goes black screen just after I pick the keyboard type (in graphic mode).  In ran the installer in text mode and got a kernel panic in about the same place.

I also have an ASUS CUV4X-DLS 32bit dual processor 1000 Intel w750MB and an ASUS P3V4X 32bit 600 Intel w/ 512MB ram.  The behavior varies but the result is that I can't install on anything I have using openSuSE 10.1 to 10.3, Fedora 8 to 9, Ubunto, etc.

I am no newbie.  I've been running Linux at home since Redhat 6.2 (the first version that looed serious) and I was the Linux guru for an entire division of a large company.

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Sat May 31 19:25:01 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 19:25:01 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Choice of MB - Trouble Installing
In-Reply-To: <053120082020.5251.4841B2F40006E1BF000014832207024553CECACDCA059C@comcast.net>
References: <053120082020.5251.4841B2F40006E1BF000014832207024553CECACDCA059C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0805311625m138456ddg7b790a2a60b7aeff@mail.gmail.com>

I have ASUS Maximus Formula and I can run 32/64bit OS

On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 4:20 PM, <rh90p at comcast.net> wrote:

> What Motherboards do you run Linux on?  I have 3 ASUS machines that I have
> been unable to install any flavor of Linux on since SuSE 9.3.  People I know
> from work are saying that they have been unable to install on their machines
> also.
>
> I have an ASUS A8V Deluxe 64bit dual core 3800+AMD w/ 3GB ram.  On that one
> Fedora 9 installer goes black screen just after I pick the keyboard type (in
> graphic mode).  In ran the installer in text mode and got a kernel panic in
> about the same place.
>
> I also have an ASUS CUV4X-DLS 32bit dual processor 1000 Intel w750MB and an
> ASUS P3V4X 32bit 600 Intel w/ 512MB ram.  The behavior varies but the result
> is that I can't install on anything I have using openSuSE 10.1 to 10.3,
> Fedora 8 to 9, Ubunto, etc.
>
> I am no newbie.  I've been running Linux at home since Redhat 6.2 (the
> first version that looed serious) and I was the Linux guru for an entire
> division of a large company.
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20080531/4821e0e8/attachment.htm 

From jd.walsh at comcast.net  Sat May 31 19:26:22 2008
From: jd.walsh at comcast.net (JD Walsh III)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 19:26:22 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Choice of MB - Trouble Installing
In-Reply-To: <053120082020.5251.4841B2F40006E1BF000014832207024553CECACDCA059C@comcast.net>
References: <053120082020.5251.4841B2F40006E1BF000014832207024553CECACDCA059C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4841DE9E.1050501@comcast.net>

I've run Linux on ASUS motherboards without trouble for some time. 
Currently I'm writing this using Kubuntu 8.04 and an ASUS M2N32-SLI 
Deluxe (wireless) board.

--jd

rh90p at comcast.net wrote:
> What Motherboards do you run Linux on?  I have 3 ASUS machines that I have been unable to install any flavor of Linux on since SuSE 9.3.  People I know from work are saying that they have been unable to install on their machines also.  
>
> I have an ASUS A8V Deluxe 64bit dual core 3800+AMD w/ 3GB ram.  On that one Fedora 9 installer goes black screen just after I pick the keyboard type (in graphic mode).  In ran the installer in text mode and got a kernel panic in about the same place.
>
> I also have an ASUS CUV4X-DLS 32bit dual processor 1000 Intel w750MB and an ASUS P3V4X 32bit 600 Intel w/ 512MB ram.  The behavior varies but the result is that I can't install on anything I have using openSuSE 10.1 to 10.3, Fedora 8 to 9, Ubunto, etc.
>
> I am no newbie.  I've been running Linux at home since Redhat 6.2 (the first version that looed serious) and I was the Linux guru for an entire division of a large company.
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>   

From jjfoerch at earthlink.net  Sat May 31 20:34:09 2008
From: jjfoerch at earthlink.net (John J Foerch)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 20:34:09 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG]  Choice of MB - Trouble Installing
In-Reply-To: <053120082020.5251.4841B2F40006E1BF000014832207024553CECACDCA059C@comcast.net>
References: <053120082020.5251.4841B2F40006E1BF000014832207024553CECACDCA059C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <18497.61057.280348.721675@gargle.gargle.HOWL>

rh90p at comcast.net writes:
 > I also have an ASUS CUV4X-DLS 32bit dual processor 1000 Intel w750MB ...

 My mainboard is the normal Asus CUV4X.  I run a blazing 600mhz PIII
with no major trouble.

-- 
John Foerch


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sat May 31 22:15:22 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 22:15:22 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Choice of MB - Trouble Installing
In-Reply-To: <053120082020.5251.4841B2F40006E1BF000014832207024553CECACDCA059C@comcast.net>
References: <053120082020.5251.4841B2F40006E1BF000014832207024553CECACDCA059C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4842063A.6070902@ameritech.net>

rh90p at comcast.net wrote:
> What Motherboards do you run Linux on?  I have 3 ASUS machines
> that I have been unable to install any flavor of Linux on since
> SuSE 9.3.

Are you saying that you have tried and failed to install on all three
machines?

> People I know from work are saying that they have been
> unable to install on their machines also.  
> I have an ASUS A8V Deluxe 64bit dual core 3800+AMD w/ 3GB ram.  
> On that one Fedora 9 installer goes black screen just after I pick
> the keyboard type (in graphic mode). In ran the installer in text
> mode and got a kernel panic in about the same place.

Is the keyboard PS2 or USB?
How does this system behave if you boot a live run CD like Knoppix?

> I also have an ASUS CUV4X-DLS 32bit dual processor 1000 Intel 
> w750MB and an ASUS P3V4X 32bit 600 Intel w/ 512MB ram.  The 
> behavior varies but the result is that I can't install on anything
> I have using openSuSE 10.1 to 10.3, Fedora 8 to 9, Ubunto, etc.

By "on anything" do you mean on any of these three identical machines?


> I am no newbie.  I've been running Linux at home since Redhat 6.2
> (the first version that looked serious) and I was the Linux guru
> for an entire division of a large company.

This outbreak of uninstallability is indeed very curious!


From greg at gregfolkert.net  Sat May 31 22:29:15 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 22:29:15 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Choice of MB - Trouble Installing
In-Reply-To: <053120082020.5251.4841B2F40006E1BF000014832207024553CECACDCA059C@comcast.net>
References: <053120082020.5251.4841B2F40006E1BF000014832207024553CECACDCA059C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1212287355.6257.5.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>

On Sat, 2008-05-31 at 20:20 +0000, rh90p at comcast.net wrote:
> What Motherboards do you run Linux on?  I have 3 ASUS machines that I
> have been unable to install any flavor of Linux on since SuSE 9.3.
> People I know from work are saying that they have been unable to
> install on their machines also.  
> 
> I have an ASUS A8V Deluxe 64bit dual core 3800+AMD w/ 3GB ram.  On
> that one Fedora 9 installer goes black screen just after I pick the
> keyboard type (in graphic mode).  In ran the installer in text mode
> and got a kernel panic in about the same place.
> 
> I also have an ASUS CUV4X-DLS 32bit dual processor 1000 Intel w750MB
> and an ASUS P3V4X 32bit 600 Intel w/ 512MB ram.  The behavior varies
> but the result is that I can't install on anything I have using
> openSuSE 10.1 to 10.3, Fedora 8 to 9, Ubunto, etc.
> 
> I am no newbie.  I've been running Linux at home since Redhat 6.2 (the
> first version that looed serious) and I was the Linux guru for an
> entire division of a large company.

Okay, quick question:

Have you used the same Optical reader and/or the Video Card for them
all?

I dealt with a man that said Linux would not load at all on any setups.
Turns out he was using the same Optical Reader (which had a sticky read
head in some places) and the same ATI Video card PCI card he took out of
his Windows machine that had issues in Windows as well.

Lesson here: Make sure you are using usable hardware.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2


From rh90p at comcast.net  Sat May 31 22:29:59 2008
From: rh90p at comcast.net (rh90p at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 02:29:59 +0000
Subject: [GRLUG] Choice of MB - Trouble Installing
Message-ID: <060120080229.23181.484209A70006D5CE00005A8D2200750438CECACDCA059C@comcast.net>

All three run windows OK.  All three have run SuSE 9.3.  They all run Knoppix Live CD.  But the newer Linux's will not install correctly and the Fedora 9 Live CD doesn't run on the A8V Deluxe but I haven't tried it on the others.

I have another problem with the A8V Deluxe: I was running the SuSE 9.3 in SATA RAID but now RAID support was dropped since the 2.4 kernels (why?) but I cant get the BIOS to enter either the Promise or VIA RAID setup.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: John J Foerch <jjfoerch at earthlink.net>
> rh90p at comcast.net writes:
>  > I also have an ASUS CUV4X-DLS 32bit dual processor 1000 Intel w750MB ...
> 
>  My mainboard is the normal Asus CUV4X.  I run a blazing 600mhz PIII
> with no major trouble.
> 
> -- 
> John Foerch
> 
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug