[GRLUG] OFF TOPIC Electric Car

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 18:18 -0500, John-Thomas Richards wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 05:33:15PM -0500, David Pembrook wrote:
> > > I'm with you, Bob, but that ain't gonna fly for most people.  Most
> I agree completely!  This reminds me of a manufacturer (it may be local;
> don't remember who) that lost a ton of money every year due to downtime
> on their forklifts/hilos.

Yep, my employer provides a web site / application specifically for the
purpose of tracking forklift utilization, cost, and uptime. :)  It is a
big deal for lots of people.  <https://www.maintenancelogistics.com/>

>   (This particular manufacturer only uses
> electric-power so as to avoid the smoke from gas-powered forklifts.)
> When a forklift's batteries were drained, it was useless until it was
> recharged, which took several hours.  They worked with the manufacturer
> of the forklifts to devise a quick-replaceable battery and battery
> compartment and purchased a lot of extra batteries. 

Quick charge systems have been available for some time.  My
understanding is that the move is away from "extra batteries" as
industrial batteries are *extremely* heavy.   A modern battery has a
long life cycle and in conjunction with rapid charge systems there is
little or no need to change batteries.  The solution for the automobile
is already well-known: hybrid, an on-board charging system using
conventional fuels.

>  When a forklift was
> getting low, the driver would be able to swap to a newly-recharged
> battery in a couple minutes.  All this to say that the car manufacturers
> should come up with a standardized battery that can be replaced in less
> than five minutes.  

This won't work.  The system would be far to cumbersome and batteries
would be exposed to potential damage.

> A "power station" (like a gas station) could buy
> dozens (hundreds?  thousands?) of these to swap with customers, just
> like you do with your propane cylinder.  

But it isn't the same.  A modern batter is a very complex device which
can be damaged if used improperly.   A propane cylinder is just a valve
and a steel tank.  In either case a damaged unit is very dangerous.
Imagine the you-tube videos of laptops flaming out - only this time it's
your car (potentially with your child or pet inside).  A couple
instances of that would kill the electric car for decades.

> If a battery goes bad (as they
> are wont to do), the cost of replacing it is built in to the cost of
> swapping batteries with customers (sort of a surcharge for each battery
> swapped).  That would solve the problem of recharging taking way too
> long to be practical.

Charging times can be reduced to roughly half an hour with some
technologies.   This conversation happens all the time in industrial
applications;  electricity is safer, cleaner, and *dramatically* less
expensive then other fuels.  Cost per unit of work is ridiculously
lopsided toward electric systems.  But the upfront cost is *very* high,
industrial batteries are not cheap, and the rapid charge chargers are
an order of magnitude more expensive than conventional chargers.  [Note:
we're talking about *cost* per unit of work, not straight up
"efficiency".  For that diesel wins handily,  but given that it is
several times more expensive the cost argument goes to electric.]