From cdubois at n-vint.com  Wed Apr  2 13:26:29 2008
From: cdubois at n-vint.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:26:29 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
Message-ID: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B415F8101@NVMBX01.nvint.local>

Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
Intel's drive to put Linux on mobile Internet devices gains support as Adobe and RealNetworks will offer AIR and RealPlayer for handhelds that use the open source OS

http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/04/02/Adobe-RealNetworks-back-Linux-on-MIDs_1.html?source=NLC-MOBILEHARDWARE&cgd=2008-04-02


Sincerely,
Casey M. DuBois
N-VINT, Inc.
3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316
616-656-5500 Office
866-337-2686 Direct
AOL IM: CaseyNVINT
cdubois at n-vint.com

"To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer."


CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential information that is protected under state and/or federal law.  If you received this message in error, please notify the sender by fax or email and delete this message. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and we shall not be responsible or liable for the proper and complete transmission of the information contained in this e-mail, any delay in its receipt or damage to your systems. We do not guarantee that the integrity of this e-mail has been maintained or that this e-mail is free of viruses, interception or interference. If you properly received this message, you may use its contents only in strict accordance with our instructions, please do not disseminate without permission of the author.  If any person makes a false or misleading representation to obtain customer information, that person may have committed a federal crime, and we may report that person to the proper authorities.

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 14:23:39 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:23:39 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
In-Reply-To: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B415F8101@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B415F8101@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0804021123h3cd924e4h4ea0475d85300e9a@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Casey DuBois <cdubois at n-vint.com> wrote:
> Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
>  Intel's drive to put Linux on mobile Internet devices gains support as Adobe and RealNetworks will offer AIR and RealPlayer for handhelds that use the open source OS

Well that sucks.

--tim

From cdubois at n-vint.com  Wed Apr  2 14:34:19 2008
From: cdubois at n-vint.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:34:19 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0804021123h3cd924e4h4ea0475d85300e9a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B415F8101@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<2c97fe9d0804021123h3cd924e4h4ea0475d85300e9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B415F8161@NVMBX01.nvint.local>

Sucks???
I thought it was a good thing.

Casey

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Schmidt [mailto:timschmidt at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 2:24 PM
To: grlug at grlug.org
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Casey DuBois <cdubois at n-vint.com> wrote:
> Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
>  Intel's drive to put Linux on mobile Internet devices gains support as Adobe and RealNetworks will offer AIR and RealPlayer for handhelds that use the open source OS

Well that sucks.

--tim
_______________________________________________
grlug mailing list
grlug at grlug.org
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential information that is protected under state and/or federal law.  If you received this message in error, please notify the sender by fax or email and delete this message. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and we shall not be responsible or liable for the proper and complete transmission of the information contained in this e-mail, any delay in its receipt or damage to your systems. We do not guarantee that the integrity of this e-mail has been maintained or that this e-mail is free of viruses, interception or interference. If you properly received this message, you may use its contents only in strict accordance with our instructions, please do not disseminate without permission of the author.  If any person makes a false or misleading representation to obtain customer information, that person may have committed a federal crime, and we may report that person to the proper authorities.

From jodanlime at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 14:37:37 2008
From: jodanlime at gmail.com (Jordan Hudson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:37:37 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
In-Reply-To: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B415F8161@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B415F8101@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<2c97fe9d0804021123h3cd924e4h4ea0475d85300e9a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B415F8161@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <d6184eb20804021137k75cef078w9ab60cd74a35bf2e@mail.gmail.com>

adobe, sweet for the most part.
realnetworks? just reminds me of real player. 'nuf said.

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 2:34 PM, Casey DuBois <cdubois at n-vint.com> wrote:

> Sucks???
> I thought it was a good thing.
>
> Casey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Schmidt [mailto:timschmidt at gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 2:24 PM
> To: grlug at grlug.org
> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
>
> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Casey DuBois <cdubois at n-vint.com> wrote:
> > Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
> >  Intel's drive to put Linux on mobile Internet devices gains support as
> Adobe and RealNetworks will offer AIR and RealPlayer for handhelds that use
> the open source OS
>
> Well that sucks.
>
> --tim
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential information
> that is protected under state and/or federal law.  If you received this
> message in error, please notify the sender by fax or email and delete this
> message. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and we shall not
> be responsible or liable for the proper and complete transmission of the
> information contained in this e-mail, any delay in its receipt or damage to
> your systems. We do not guarantee that the integrity of this e-mail has been
> maintained or that this e-mail is free of viruses, interception or
> interference. If you properly received this message, you may use its
> contents only in strict accordance with our instructions, please do not
> disseminate without permission of the author.  If any person makes a false
> or misleading representation to obtain customer information, that person may
> have committed a federal crime, and we may report that person to the proper
> authorities.
> _______________________________________________
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> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From networkman at triton.net  Wed Apr  2 14:33:50 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (Rich Nagel)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:33:50 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B415F8101@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<2c97fe9d0804021123h3cd924e4h4ea0475d85300e9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001901c894f0$18b86a20$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>

Huh?  Why?  I'd think that backing from Adobe & RealNetworks would be a GOOD 
thing. :/

Please explain.

Rich

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Schmidt" <timschmidt at gmail.com>
To: <grlug at grlug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs


> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Casey DuBois <cdubois at n-vint.com> wrote:
>> Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
>>  Intel's drive to put Linux on mobile Internet devices gains support as 
>> Adobe and RealNetworks will offer AIR and RealPlayer for handhelds that 
>> use the open source OS
>
> Well that sucks.
>
> --tim
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> 


From grlugcasey at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 15:42:40 2008
From: grlugcasey at gmail.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:42:40 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] GRLUG April Meeting - Thursday April 10th 6-8PM
Message-ID: <f0ffba670804021242p308ab2b5w76b88f29e270abf6@mail.gmail.com>

*GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) April Meeting*

Food will be provided so please RSVP to grlugcasey at gmail.com so I can make
sure to have enough.

*Also let me know if you have any special needs (Allergies, Vegetarian,
Etc.).

*Date and Time:*

Thursday April 10th

6:00 PM - 8:00 PM (food will be ready @ 6:00)
*
Location:
*N-Vint, Inc.

3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industrial+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.765625&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr&om=1

*Topics:*

*What do we want to discuss???*

*Anyone have a presentation???*



<http://www.wmlug.org/>

Sincerely,

*Casey M. DuBois*

*N-VINT, Inc.*

3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316

616-656-5500 Office

*866-337-2686* Direct

*AOL IM: CaseyNVINT*

cdubois at n-vint.com**



"To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer."
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From cdubois at n-vint.com  Wed Apr  2 16:11:06 2008
From: cdubois at n-vint.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:11:06 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Need Topics * GRLUG April Meeting - next week Thursday
 April 10th 6-8PM
Message-ID: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B415F8213@NVMBX01.nvint.local>

GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) April Meeting
Food will be provided so please RSVP to cdubois at n-vint.com<mailto:cdubois at n-vint.com> so I can make sure to have enough.
*Also let me know if you have any special needs (Allergies, Vegetarian, Etc.).
Date and Time:
Thursday April 10th
6:00 PM - 8:00 PM (food will be ready @ 6:00)

Location:
N-Vint, Inc.
3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industrial+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.765625&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr&om=1
Topics:
What do we want to discuss???
Does anyone have a presentation???

Sincerely,
Casey M. DuBois
N-VINT, Inc.
3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316
616-656-5500 Office
866-337-2686 Direct
AOL IM: CaseyNVINT
cdubois at n-vint.com<mailto:cdubois at n-vint.com>

"Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems."
-Linus Torvalds

________________________________
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential information that is protected under state and/or federal law. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender by fax or email and delete this message. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and we shall not be responsible or liable for the proper and complete transmission of the information contained in this e-mail, any delay in its receipt or damage to your systems. We do not guarantee that the integrity of this e-mail has been maintained or that this e-mail is free of viruses, interception or interference. If you properly received this message, you may use its contents only in strict accordance with our instructions, please do not disseminate without permission of the author. If any person makes a false or misleading representation to obtain customer information, that person may have committed a federal crime, and we may report that person to the proper authorities.
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From timschmidt at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 16:12:26 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:12:26 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
In-Reply-To: <001901c894f0$18b86a20$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B415F8101@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<2c97fe9d0804021123h3cd924e4h4ea0475d85300e9a@mail.gmail.com>
	<001901c894f0$18b86a20$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0804021312i27bc1380y6434d002d971dcc8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Rich Nagel <networkman at triton.net> wrote:
> Huh?  Why?  I'd think that backing from Adobe & RealNetworks would be a GOOD
>  thing. :/
>
>  Please explain.

Flash and Real's video codec are two of the very few pieces of closed
source software many people still use regularly.  Seeing them spread
is not a good thing.

A Good ThingTM would be Adobe contributing programmer time,
documentation, or money toward Gnash or swfdec to encourage
interoperability and standards.  I, for one, am not excited to see
closed, buggy, impossible to fix software spread onto platforms I have
a chance of using.

--tim

From radiodurans at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  3 09:08:37 2008
From: radiodurans at yahoo.com (John Harig)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 06:08:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0804021312i27bc1380y6434d002d971dcc8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <415368.20347.qm@web80402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Presentations?  Maybe we could have a debate about the
benefits of closed sourced software supporting linux?
;)

I don't see anything inherently bad in it. At least it
shows interest in linux and helps to make linux
products more competitive in the market as well as
generating more corporate interest. 

As long as consumers can choose which programs to
install and uninstall, closed and open source should
be able to  co-exist (as long as you know the security
risks and bug risks).  The problem comes if you "have"
to run it and have no other alternative. 

Yes, Adobe Flash is by no means perfect and it allowed
hackers to win the Pwn to Own challenge: 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20080331/bs_nf/59043

I am told that Ubuntu was just as vulnerable by people
who say they know a lot about security. But Microsoft,
for one reason or another, is a popular target for
hackers ;). 

The ideal end of any project is to become "open
source" (and many if not most projects should start
that way from the beginning), closed source isn't
necessarily a bad thing for development:

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/dec/long-live-closed-source-software/

I think specifically using Adobe Flash as a negative
is a bit unfair since Flash is a relatively recent
acquisition of Adobe (they have had only one major
boxed release of it I think?).  

Most of the people who work at Adobe are all about
open source, but they feel they need to develop things
more at their company and of course "the suits" need
to make money.  The main reason given why they never
wrote Photoshop for Linux is that they never felt they
could make money off of it, which may be one reason
why they are going with the web Photoshop project.

I think a better Adobe counterexample is pdf, which
they developed and has been a format used for almost
forever in the linux community, and Adobe has turned
it over to make an ISO standard. 
http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS7542722606.html

Even before it was submitted to be an ISO standard
there were a great deal of 3rd party apps that you
could use for pdfs:

http://www.cogniview.com/convert-pdf-to-excel/post/pdf-editing-creation-50-open-sourcefree-alternatives-to-adobe-acrobat/

As for RealMedia . . . yeah . . . at least it is a
voice of support for linux, albeit one I don't really
care for.  They don't offer anything usefully
innovative but always becomes a default standard
because they have been around for awhile. When it
started out it was pretty cool (for a closed-source
product) but then it started getting bloated with ads
and killed itself.  I would definitely be happier with
a xiph.org alternative codec (theora).

Even if RealMedia is an impending failure, at least it
promotes more work on linux, and failures can always
teach lessons.

--- Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Rich Nagel
> <networkman at triton.net> wrote:
> > Huh?  Why?  I'd think that backing from Adobe &
> RealNetworks would be a GOOD
> >  thing. :/
> >
> >  Please explain.
> 
> Flash and Real's video codec are two of the very few
> pieces of closed
> source software many people still use regularly. 
> Seeing them spread
> is not a good thing.
> 
> A Good ThingTM would be Adobe contributing
> programmer time,
> documentation, or money toward Gnash or swfdec to
> encourage
> interoperability and standards.  I, for one, am not
> excited to see
> closed, buggy, impossible to fix software spread
> onto platforms I have
> a chance of using.
> 
> --tim
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
>
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 


From networkman at triton.net  Thu Apr  3 10:22:07 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (networkman at triton.net)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:22:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
In-Reply-To: <415368.20347.qm@web80402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <415368.20347.qm@web80402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3205.69.11.205.103.1207232527.squirrel@remotemail.triton.net>

Thanks John. :)  I'm just starting to get back into Linux again, so I'm
not "up" on what all has been going on.  Your explaination makes a good
deal of sense to me.

Rich



> Presentations?  Maybe we could have a debate about the
> benefits of closed sourced software supporting linux?
> ;)
>
> I don't see anything inherently bad in it. At least it
> shows interest in linux and helps to make linux
> products more competitive in the market as well as
> generating more corporate interest.
>
> As long as consumers can choose which programs to
> install and uninstall, closed and open source should
> be able to  co-exist (as long as you know the security
> risks and bug risks).  The problem comes if you "have"
> to run it and have no other alternative.
>
> Yes, Adobe Flash is by no means perfect and it allowed
> hackers to win the Pwn to Own challenge:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20080331/bs_nf/59043
>
> I am told that Ubuntu was just as vulnerable by people
> who say they know a lot about security. But Microsoft,
> for one reason or another, is a popular target for
> hackers ;).
>
> The ideal end of any project is to become "open
> source" (and many if not most projects should start
> that way from the beginning), closed source isn't
> necessarily a bad thing for development:
>
> http://discovermagazine.com/2007/dec/long-live-closed-source-software/
>
> I think specifically using Adobe Flash as a negative
> is a bit unfair since Flash is a relatively recent
> acquisition of Adobe (they have had only one major
> boxed release of it I think?).
>
> Most of the people who work at Adobe are all about
> open source, but they feel they need to develop things
> more at their company and of course "the suits" need
> to make money.  The main reason given why they never
> wrote Photoshop for Linux is that they never felt they
> could make money off of it, which may be one reason
> why they are going with the web Photoshop project.
>
> I think a better Adobe counterexample is pdf, which
> they developed and has been a format used for almost
> forever in the linux community, and Adobe has turned
> it over to make an ISO standard.
> http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS7542722606.html
>
> Even before it was submitted to be an ISO standard
> there were a great deal of 3rd party apps that you
> could use for pdfs:
>
> http://www.cogniview.com/convert-pdf-to-excel/post/pdf-editing-creation-50-open-sourcefree-alternatives-to-adobe-acrobat/
>
> As for RealMedia . . . yeah . . . at least it is a
> voice of support for linux, albeit one I don't really
> care for.  They don't offer anything usefully
> innovative but always becomes a default standard
> because they have been around for awhile. When it
> started out it was pretty cool (for a closed-source
> product) but then it started getting bloated with ads
> and killed itself.  I would definitely be happier with
> a xiph.org alternative codec (theora).
>
> Even if RealMedia is an impending failure, at least it
> promotes more work on linux, and failures can always
> teach lessons.
>
> --- Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Rich Nagel
>> <networkman at triton.net> wrote:
>> > Huh?  Why?  I'd think that backing from Adobe &
>> RealNetworks would be a GOOD
>> >  thing. :/
>> >
>> >  Please explain.
>>
>> Flash and Real's video codec are two of the very few
>> pieces of closed
>> source software many people still use regularly.
>> Seeing them spread
>> is not a good thing.
>>
>> A Good ThingTM would be Adobe contributing
>> programmer time,
>> documentation, or money toward Gnash or swfdec to
>> encourage
>> interoperability and standards.  I, for one, am not
>> excited to see
>> closed, buggy, impossible to fix software spread
>> onto platforms I have
>> a chance of using.
>>
>> --tim
>> _______________________________________________
>> grlug mailing list
>> grlug at grlug.org
>>
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>



From timschmidt at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 10:31:22 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:31:22 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
In-Reply-To: <415368.20347.qm@web80402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <2c97fe9d0804021312i27bc1380y6434d002d971dcc8@mail.gmail.com>
	<415368.20347.qm@web80402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0804030731p53679c0epf3bcbbd813d5f1a3@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:08 AM, John Harig <radiodurans at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  I don't see anything inherently bad in it. At least it
>  shows interest in linux and helps to make linux
>  products more competitive in the market as well as
>  generating more corporate interest.

I don't use Linux because it's 'competitive in the market'.  I use
linux because the fundamental nature of FOSS software has and will
continue to encourage faster / better / more stable / standards
compliant / interoperable / innovative / secure / usable / flexible
tools that empower me to do what I want, when I want, how I want.

The very existence of Adobe's (previously Macromedia's) closed,
binary-only port of Flash for Linux encourages a 'good enough'
mentality.  Instead of encouraging others to contribute toward a
solution for everyone, you encourage others to thank Adobe for it's
blob of 32bit x86-only (soon to be DRM-laden) 'gift'.  PPC, x86-64,
MIPS, ARM, and Sparc users be damned.  Embedded users (read the flash
EULA lately?), non-X users, users with V4L2 devices, users without
ALSA (heard of Jack?), users who care about security; the existence of
a non-free flash that most people find 'good enough' discourages a
large portion (the majority?) of the community from focusing on flash
as a problem that needs fixing.  This harms all minority FOSS users.
And since I think we can all agree here that, as software grows to
support more varied operating conditions, it's code quality and
robustness generally improve, we are all losing.

Now, I occasionally use Adobe's non-free flash.  There are several
things I do on a semi-regular basis that Gnash can't accomplish yet.
But I don't see Adobe's choice to give us a poor quality port in
preference to rudimentary documentation as a good thing.  And I'm
certainly not content with the situation as is.  I encourage you all
to install Gnash, and evaluate it for your current workload.  File a
bug report if you find one, talk to the developers on IRC, join the
mailing list, perhaps send an email to Adobe, politely asking for
documentation (I think I will today), but most importantly, don't
forget why you use the software you do.

>  As long as consumers can choose which programs to
>  install and uninstall, closed and open source should
>  be able to  co-exist (as long as you know the security
>  risks and bug risks).  The problem comes if you "have"
>  to run it and have no other alternative.

Your supposition requires the precondition of a level playing field.
If Flash were documented - at all - I'd be perfectly willing to let
the implementations stand on their merits.

> [FUD snip]

>  The ideal end of any project is to become "open
>  source" (and many if not most projects should start
>  that way from the beginning), closed source isn't
>  necessarily a bad thing for development:

It's bad for my ability to develop, and yours.  And that is bad for all of us.

>  I think specifically using Adobe Flash as a negative
>  is a bit unfair since Flash is a relatively recent
>  acquisition of Adobe (they have had only one major
>  boxed release of it I think?).

Adobe acquired Macromedia on Dec 3 2005.  In 2.5 years they've not
released one page of format documentation, let alone code.  It's not
going to happen any time soon.

>  Most of the people who work at Adobe are all about
>  open source, but they feel they need to develop things
>  more at their company and of course "the suits" need
>  to make money.  The main reason given why they never
>  wrote Photoshop for Linux is that they never felt they
>  could make money off of it, which may be one reason
>  why they are going with the web Photoshop project.

Right.  That's why Photoshop is one of the primary Windows
applications Codeweavers makes a living supporting on Linux.  And
again, who wants a crippled port when we could be improving GIMP?
FOSS software empowers YOU to fix problems, make improvements,
influence others to do the same.  Squandering that gift is insulting.

> [PDF snip]

I don't really have anything bad to say about PDFs.  There seems to be
adequate documentation, and we have highly-featured FOSS
implementations.  Good stuff.

>  Even if RealMedia is an impending failure, at least it
>  promotes more work on linux, and failures can always
>  teach lessons.

With friends like that...

--tim

From ndrier at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 10:42:17 2008
From: ndrier at gmail.com (Nathan)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:42:17 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Computer goodies
Message-ID: <7f08d14b0804030742s1996ef02mc1053eb21408befd@mail.gmail.com>

I got the job offer that dreams are made of,  and that dream says 'we
will pay you to move to California'.  So i'm looking to lighten my
load a bit.

The Goods:

Sun Netra T1 1u server.  400Mhz SPARC / 512 megs of ram.

Dell Dimension 933r.  Believe its a 933 mhz, 256 megs.

AOPEN custom Tower.  400mhz, 256megs.

COMPAQ Deskpro with 3 nics, 1.0 CPU, and 256 megs of ram.  This is my
current smoothwall firewall,  so you can either trade me for a decent
broadband / wireless router,  or just wait until the day that I move
to take it.

A box of functional video cards, ram sticks, NIC's, WIFI cards, and
another motherboard for the Deskpro system.

I have the HDD for all the systems,  and only if I can find time to
zero them will I include them.  If anyone knows of a school or trade
center that is looking for computer stuff like this,  I would rather
give it to an organization like that.  If not,  hit me on or off list
and make me an offer.

Nate

From radiodurans at yahoo.com  Fri Apr  4 02:39:44 2008
From: radiodurans at yahoo.com (John Harig)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 23:39:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0804030731p53679c0epf3bcbbd813d5f1a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <612644.72697.qm@web80403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>>  I don't see anything inherently bad in it. At
least it shows interest in linux and helps to make
linux products more competitive in the market as well
as generating more corporate interest.

> I don't use Linux because it's 'competitive in the
market'.  I use linux because the fundamental nature
of FOSS software has and will continue to encourage
faster / better / more stable / standards compliant /
interoperable / innovative / secure / usable /
flexible
tools that empower me to do what I want, when I
want, how I want.

--> Yes, I personally use linux for many of those same
reasons, but I was trying to address the movement as a
whole, not my personal reasons for running linux. We
all have disagreements over our favorite app, favorite
distro, and favorite tools. But that's what is good
about choice with an OS like linux . . . even the
choice between closed and open software. 

Let's say that Adobe Flash is the worst piece of ****
ever, the Microsoft Bob of linux.  As long as there is
one person out there that wants to run that particular
application, isn't it a good thing that he/she can
choose to run or not run it rather than not having the
choice at all?

Because something isn't the best possible scenario it
doesn't mean it is automatically the worst case or
even a bad case.

Would it be a "better" thing for end users if Adobe
made flash open source? Most likely yes.  Does that
automatically make it "bad" thing that it isn't?  I
don't think it necessarily does. . . it probably just
means that it isn't as good as it could be.  Seeing as
how so many people use it, it seems like a good thing
that closed source flash has come about, but it would
be even better if it opened up at some point.

But I was specifically trying to address whether the
corporate sponsorship of linux products who have
closed sources linux apps is a good thing for the
linux movement as a whole, and I think it could argued
yes -- increasing the user base and generating
corporate interest in linux IS on the whole a good
thing for the movement, as long as it doesn't infringe
on your ability to make the modifications you desire.

I think there are many potential Linux users out there
who might be swayed by a company like Adobe even if I
will continue to use Linux for my own needs
regardless.
 
> The very existence of Adobe's (previously
Macromedia's) closed, binary-only port of Flash for
Linux encourages a 'good enough'mentality.  Instead of
encouraging others to contribute toward a solution for
everyone, you encourage others to thank Adobe for it's
blob of 32bit x86-only  And since I think we can all
agree here that, as software grows to support more
varied operating conditions, it's code quality and
robustness generally improve, we are all losing.

--> I disagree that the very existence of closed
source software encourages a "good enough" mentality,
especially on linux. The moment a new closed source
app is written, somebody somewhere is looking into
developing open source alternative.  But even in the
context of closed sourced software, you have to
continually update and improve your product to stay
competitive with other closed source alternatives. 
"Good enough" is really only an issue when something 
becomes a monopoly, which is a different issue from
open vs closed source apps.  The evolution might be
slower, but I have never seen a leader stop at "good
enough".
 
> Now, I occasionally use Adobe's non-free flash. 
There are several things I do on a semi-regular basis
that Gnash can't accomplish yet.  But I don't see
Adobe's choice to give us a poor quality port in
preference to rudimentary documentation as a good
thing.

--> OK so I think this actually demonstrates much of
what I said.  Again, having the option of having the
functionality of the non-free flash is better than not
having it at all . . . 

. . . And would Gnash even exist without the closed
source version?  Many great open source projects start
off as closed source ideas, like that whole AT&T UNIX
thing for example. 

Also, by stating tasks that "Gnash can't accomplish
yet", it sounds like you are also optimistic that it
will find a way even if adobe flash remains closed. 
If closed programs set a goal, open source usually
goes well beyond it.   Yes, opening Adobe Flash might
speed up development in the short run with Adobe
created solutions intitally to start from, but in the
long run, open source is completely capable of
developing its own solutions independently.  
 
A poor quality closed source port with poor
documentation is better than none at all, and is also
inspiration for open source programmers to do
something better and with better results. 

>I encourage you all to install Gnash, and evaluate it
for your current workload.  File a bug report if you
find one, talk to the developers on IRC, join the
mailing list, perhaps send an email to Adobe, politely
asking for documentation (I think I will today), but
most importantly, don't forget why you use the
software you do.

--> I agree with all of that, I think we differ only
at the point where closed source Adobe Flash for linux
and Adobe supporting a Linux MID is a bad thing rather
than saying it is a good thing, but just not as good
as it could be if it were open source.

>> As long as consumers can choose which programs to
install and uninstall, closed and open source should
be able to  co-exist (as long as you know the security
risks and bug risks).  The problem comes if you
"have" to run it and have no other alternative.
 
> Your supposition requires the precondition of a
level playing field.

No, I don't see that. A precondition of my statement
would be "no dependency conflicts".  A level playing
field would only be a description of a possible
condition, not a pre-condition. Running MS Word and
OpenOffice Writer on the same computer does not
necessitate a level playing field as a precondition.

But let's say there is a computer only with MS Word on
it.  MS Word can't do something OO Writer can, so I
just need to download Writer, install it and run it
with the help of all its good open source
documentation. 

But what if I have a computer with only OpenOffice and
I need some MS Word functionality not yet available?
Shell out the $$$$ consult the awful documentation.

So now take these two conditions: one where Adobe
supports linux and one where it does not.

In both cases I can use whatever open source
implementation I desire.  In the first case, however,
I can choose to run the Adobe closed sourced program
if I choose to and/or the open source implementation. 
More choice is a plus in that case.

> If Flash were documented - at all - I'd be perfectly
willing to let the implementations stand on their
merits.

--> Flash is documented:

http://www.adobe.com/support/documentation/en/flash/

But of course that is probably not in the way you mean
or at least as detailed as a developer would like . .
. and definitely not as well as an open source project
. due to the legality of closed source code.

>> The ideal end of any project is to become "open
source" (and many if not most projects should start
that way from the beginning), closed source isn't
necessarily a bad thing for development:

> It's bad for my ability to develop, and yours.  And
that is bad for all of us.

--> In cases such as Software patents it is clearly
bad -- the entire programs isn't patented, but the
algorithms and techniques used are . . . 

. . . but the existence of a closed source app
shouldn't hinder development for task it performs, it
should only hinder your ability to copy the closed
source solution or solve it in the same way.

If a closed source app finds a way to Detroit via
skateboard, that shouldn't hinder me from developing
an open source Ferrari to drive me there . . . or take
me  someplace better or further away like New York.  

(And the fact that my open source car has wheels as
the closed source skateboard has wheels shouldn't be
seen as infringement.  Circles, after all, are found
everywhere in nature.)

Did AMD say that Intel hindered it's chip design by
not sharing its proprietary designs?  AMD went right
ahead and reverse engineered its own.


>>  I think specifically using Adobe Flash as a
negative is a bit unfair since Flash is a relatively
recent acquisition of Adobe (they have had only one
major boxed release of it I think?).
 
> Adobe acquired Macromedia on Dec 3 2005.  In 2.5
years they've not released one page of format
documentation, let alone code.  It's not going to
happen any time soon.

--> I think the key there is "acquired".  You don't
fully merge two companies together even after 2.5
years.  

Sprint acquired Nextel about the same time, and  last
month I had to inquire about an old Nextel account so
I called Sprint Accounts.  I ended up calling a
different number because the records hadn't been
merged yet.  

I think for adobe to have released its first version
of flash in that time while buggy is pretty good
considering.  I would expect them to want to get at
least a couple of closed source releases in for such a
a multi-million dollar acquisition.


> >  Most of the people who work at Adobe are all
about
open source, but they feel they need to develop things
more at their company and of course "the suits" need
to make money.  The main reason given why they never
wrote Photoshop for Linux is that they never felt
they could make money off of it, which may be one
reason why they are going with the web Photoshop
project.
 
> Right.  That's why Photoshop is one of the primary
Windows applications Codeweavers makes a living
supporting on Linux.  And again, who wants a crippled
port when we could be improving GIMP?

GIMP wasn't designed to replace photoshop and will
probably never support the complete functionality of 
Photoshop, especially for things like Pantone numbers
for spot colors due to legal issues.  GIMP developers
have a different agenda than photoshop developers even
if more subtly different at times.  

However, 90% of the stuff I need to do I can use the
GIMP, but it would be nice to have the choice of a
photoshop for linux for that other 10%.  Until then
there will be VMs.

> FOSS software empowers YOU to fix problems, make
improvements, influence others to do the same. 
Squandering that gift is insulting.

That's a leap in logic I cannot make . . . accepting
that FOSS software empowering users to fix problems
doesn't mean that I've squandered the gift by running
closed source apps/ports for linux.


> I don't really have anything bad to say about PDFs. 
There seems to be adequate documentation, and we have
highly-featured FOSS implementations.  Good stuff.

--> Agreed!  Thank goodness for that originally closed
source Adobe project combined the power of open source
development to create implementation solutions over
the years. It has now become an ISO standard and an
open format.  Perhaps the same thing will happen with
flash in a few more years as the code matures . . . 

From dave at uvhosting.com  Sat Apr  5 00:04:29 2008
From: dave at uvhosting.com (David Szostek)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 00:04:29 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Xen
Message-ID: <003a01c896d2$25b0c720$6401a8c0@710M>

Hi,

Consider a server with a 4TB RAID5 volume of SATA drives and a 450GB RAID 5
volume of 15k SCSI drives.

When creating a guest domain in Xen, we specify the main storage for it on
the 4TB volume when we create it.

We would also like to allow this guest domain some storage on the 450GB
volume. 

How would this be accomplished? Anyone have any ideas? Google hasn't been
very helpful (though my search terms could suck too).

Thanks much!
~dave


------------------
Unlimited Ventures, 820 Monroe Ave NW - Suite 323, Grand Rapids, MI 49503. 
Phone: (616) 723-0098. Fax: (616) 723-0099. Website: www.unlimitedventures.com

LEGAL NOTICE:  This e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender by reply e-mail or by calling (616) 723-0098 x 1002, delete the e-mail from your computer and do not copy or disclose it to anyone else. Unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, reliance or use is prohibited. Neither this e-mail nor its attachment(s) constitute an electronic signature or provide consent to contract electronically, unless expressly so stated by an Unlimited Ventures Officer in the body of this e-mail or an attachment.


From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Sat Apr  5 00:29:31 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 00:29:31 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Xen
In-Reply-To: <003a01c896d2$25b0c720$6401a8c0@710M>
References: <003a01c896d2$25b0c720$6401a8c0@710M>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0804042129v7cb56886i39db26296a544e3c@mail.gmail.com>

Have you tried PLESK?

On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 12:04 AM, David Szostek <dave at uvhosting.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Consider a server with a 4TB RAID5 volume of SATA drives and a 450GB RAID
> 5
> volume of 15k SCSI drives.
>
> When creating a guest domain in Xen, we specify the main storage for it on
> the 4TB volume when we create it.
>
> We would also like to allow this guest domain some storage on the 450GB
> volume.
>
> How would this be accomplished? Anyone have any ideas? Google hasn't been
> very helpful (though my search terms could suck too).
>
> Thanks much!
> ~dave
>
>
> ------------------
> Unlimited Ventures, 820 Monroe Ave NW - Suite 323, Grand Rapids, MI 49503.
> Phone: (616) 723-0098. Fax: (616) 723-0099. Website:
> www.unlimitedventures.com
>
> LEGAL NOTICE:  This e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended
> recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender
> by reply e-mail or by calling (616) 723-0098 x 1002, delete the e-mail from
> your computer and do not copy or disclose it to anyone else. Unauthorized
> disclosure, copying, distribution, reliance or use is prohibited. Neither
> this e-mail nor its attachment(s) constitute an electronic signature or
> provide consent to contract electronically, unless expressly so stated by an
> Unlimited Ventures Officer in the body of this e-mail or an attachment.
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha
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From dave at unlimitedventures.com  Sat Apr  5 00:49:32 2008
From: dave at unlimitedventures.com (David Szostek)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 00:49:32 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Xen
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0804042129v7cb56886i39db26296a544e3c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004201c896d8$71385a40$6401a8c0@710M>

Do you mean their hosting control panel? I don't think that does
Virtualization. 
 
They do have a virtualization product, but it is still in beta. 
 
Do you have any experience with it for this kind of application?
 
~dave

-----Original Message-----
From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of
Professor Inuyasha
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 12:30 AM
To: grlug at grlug.org
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Xen


Have you tried PLESK?


On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 12:04 AM, David Szostek <dave at uvhosting.com> wrote:


Hi,

Consider a server with a 4TB RAID5 volume of SATA drives and a 450GB RAID 5
volume of 15k SCSI drives.

When creating a guest domain in Xen, we specify the main storage for it on
the 4TB volume when we create it.

We would also like to allow this guest domain some storage on the 450GB
volume.

How would this be accomplished? Anyone have any ideas? Google hasn't been
very helpful (though my search terms could suck too).

Thanks much!
~dave


------------------
Unlimited Ventures, 820 Monroe Ave NW - Suite 323, Grand Rapids, MI 49503.
Phone: (616) 723-0098. Fax: (616) 723-0099. Website:
www.unlimitedventures.com <http://www.unlimitedventures.com/> 

LEGAL NOTICE:  This e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended
recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender
by reply e-mail or by calling (616) 723-0098 x 1002, delete the e-mail from
your computer and do not copy or disclose it to anyone else. Unauthorized
disclosure, copying, distribution, reliance or use is prohibited. Neither
this e-mail nor its attachment(s) constitute an electronic signature or
provide consent to contract electronically, unless expressly so stated by an
Unlimited Ventures Officer in the body of this e-mail or an attachment.

_______________________________________________
grlug mailing list
grlug at grlug.org
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug





-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha 


------------------
Unlimited Ventures, 820 Monroe Ave NW - Suite 323, Grand Rapids, MI 49503. 
Phone: (616) 723-0098. Fax: (616) 723-0099. Website: www.unlimitedventures.com

LEGAL NOTICE:  This e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender by reply e-mail or by calling (616) 723-0098 x 1002, delete the e-mail from your computer and do not copy or disclose it to anyone else. Unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, reliance or use is prohibited. Neither this e-mail nor its attachment(s) constitute an electronic signature or provide consent to contract electronically, unless expressly so stated by an Unlimited Ventures Officer in the body of this e-mail or an attachment.

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From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Sat Apr  5 01:08:37 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 01:08:37 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Xen
In-Reply-To: <004201c896d8$71385a40$6401a8c0@710M>
References: <aecf8abe0804042129v7cb56886i39db26296a544e3c@mail.gmail.com>
	<004201c896d8$71385a40$6401a8c0@710M>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0804042208p4fa6d339q470e55cc11964e02@mail.gmail.com>

I know Novell can do it....that's what I heard

On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 12:49 AM, David Szostek <dave at unlimitedventures.com>
wrote:

>  Do you mean their hosting control panel? I don't think that does
> Virtualization.
>
> They do have a virtualization product, but it is still in beta.
>
> Do you have any experience with it for this kind of application?
>
> ~dave
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> *From:* grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Professor Inuyasha
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 05, 2008 12:30 AM
> *To:* grlug at grlug.org
> *Subject:* Re: [GRLUG] Xen
>
> Have you tried PLESK?
>
> On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 12:04 AM, David Szostek <dave at uvhosting.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Consider a server with a 4TB RAID5 volume of SATA drives and a 450GB
> > RAID 5
> > volume of 15k SCSI drives.
> >
> > When creating a guest domain in Xen, we specify the main storage for it
> > on
> > the 4TB volume when we create it.
> >
> > We would also like to allow this guest domain some storage on the 450GB
> > volume.
> >
> > How would this be accomplished? Anyone have any ideas? Google hasn't
> > been
> > very helpful (though my search terms could suck too).
> >
> > Thanks much!
> > ~dave
> >
> >
> > ------------------
> > Unlimited Ventures, 820 Monroe Ave NW - Suite 323, Grand Rapids, MI
> > 49503.
> > Phone: (616) 723-0098. Fax: (616) 723-0099. Website:
> > www.unlimitedventures.com
> >
> > LEGAL NOTICE:  This e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended
> > recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender
> > by reply e-mail or by calling (616) 723-0098 x 1002, delete the e-mail from
> > your computer and do not copy or disclose it to anyone else. Unauthorized
> > disclosure, copying, distribution, reliance or use is prohibited. Neither
> > this e-mail nor its attachment(s) constitute an electronic signature or
> > provide consent to contract electronically, unless expressly so stated by an
> > Unlimited Ventures Officer in the body of this e-mail or an attachment.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------
> Professor Inuyasha
>
>    ------------------------------
>
> Unlimited Ventures, 820 Monroe Ave NW - Suite 323, Grand Rapids, MI 49503.
>
> Phone: (616) 723-0098. Fax: (616) 723-0099. Website:
> www.unlimitedventures.com
>
> LEGAL NOTICE: This e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended
> recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender
> by reply e-mail or by calling (616) 723-0098 x 1002, delete the e-mail from
> your computer and do not copy or disclose it to anyone else. Unauthorized
> disclosure, copying, distribution, reliance or use is prohibited. Neither
> this e-mail nor its attachment(s) constitute an electronic signature or
> provide consent to contract electronically, unless expressly so stated by an
> Unlimited Ventures Officer in the body of this e-mail or an attachment.
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha
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From brousch at orthicomp.net  Sat Apr  5 10:42:36 2008
From: brousch at orthicomp.net (Ben Rousch)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 14:42:36 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [GRLUG] Xen
In-Reply-To: <003a01c896d2$25b0c720$6401a8c0@710M>
Message-ID: <966907808.10131207406556185.JavaMail.root@mail.orthicomp.net>

----- "David Szostek" <dave at uvhosting.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Consider a server with a 4TB RAID5 volume of SATA drives and a 450GB
> RAID 5 volume of 15k SCSI drives.
> 
> When creating a guest domain in Xen, we specify the main storage for
> it on the 4TB volume when we create it.
> 
> We would also like to allow this guest domain some storage on the
> 450GB volume. 
> 
> How would this be accomplished? Anyone have any ideas? Google hasn't
> been very helpful (though my search terms could suck too).
> 
> Thanks much!
> ~dave

I'm not very familiar with Xen and how it differs from VMWare. In VMWare you create virtual disk drives, so you would create a drive on the 4TB volume which is mounted as / in the guest OS and then create a drive on the 450GB volume which gets mounted as /mnt/awesome. The guest's user can then stick whatever they want in the main volume or in /mnt/awesome as they desire.
-- 
  -- Ben Rousch

From tomewarren at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 09:49:57 2008
From: tomewarren at gmail.com (Tom Warren)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:49:57 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
In-Reply-To: <415368.20347.qm@web80402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <2c97fe9d0804021312i27bc1380y6434d002d971dcc8@mail.gmail.com>
	<415368.20347.qm@web80402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <15f732370804030649h2dc9ffak4dd3cd3516471684@mail.gmail.com>

<delurk>

Didn't Realnetworks release the helix player as OSS?

</delurk>



On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:08 AM, John Harig <radiodurans at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Presentations?  Maybe we could have a debate about the
> benefits of closed sourced software supporting linux?
> ;)
>
> I don't see anything inherently bad in it. At least it
> shows interest in linux and helps to make linux
> products more competitive in the market as well as
> generating more corporate interest.
>
> As long as consumers can choose which programs to
> install and uninstall, closed and open source should
> be able to  co-exist (as long as you know the security
> risks and bug risks).  The problem comes if you "have"
> to run it and have no other alternative.
>
> Yes, Adobe Flash is by no means perfect and it allowed
> hackers to win the Pwn to Own challenge:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20080331/bs_nf/59043
>
> I am told that Ubuntu was just as vulnerable by people
> who say they know a lot about security. But Microsoft,
> for one reason or another, is a popular target for
> hackers ;).
>
> The ideal end of any project is to become "open
> source" (and many if not most projects should start
> that way from the beginning), closed source isn't
> necessarily a bad thing for development:
>
> http://discovermagazine.com/2007/dec/long-live-closed-source-software/
>
> I think specifically using Adobe Flash as a negative
> is a bit unfair since Flash is a relatively recent
> acquisition of Adobe (they have had only one major
> boxed release of it I think?).
>
> Most of the people who work at Adobe are all about
> open source, but they feel they need to develop things
> more at their company and of course "the suits" need
> to make money.  The main reason given why they never
> wrote Photoshop for Linux is that they never felt they
> could make money off of it, which may be one reason
> why they are going with the web Photoshop project.
>
> I think a better Adobe counterexample is pdf, which
> they developed and has been a format used for almost
> forever in the linux community, and Adobe has turned
> it over to make an ISO standard.
> http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS7542722606.html
>
> Even before it was submitted to be an ISO standard
> there were a great deal of 3rd party apps that you
> could use for pdfs:
>
>
> http://www.cogniview.com/convert-pdf-to-excel/post/pdf-editing-creation-50-open-sourcefree-alternatives-to-adobe-acrobat/
>
> As for RealMedia . . . yeah . . . at least it is a
> voice of support for linux, albeit one I don't really
> care for.  They don't offer anything usefully
> innovative but always becomes a default standard
> because they have been around for awhile. When it
> started out it was pretty cool (for a closed-source
> product) but then it started getting bloated with ads
> and killed itself.  I would definitely be happier with
> a xiph.org alternative codec (theora).
>
> Even if RealMedia is an impending failure, at least it
> promotes more work on linux, and failures can always
> teach lessons.
>
> --- Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Rich Nagel
> > <networkman at triton.net> wrote:
> > > Huh?  Why?  I'd think that backing from Adobe &
> > RealNetworks would be a GOOD
> > >  thing. :/
> > >
> > >  Please explain.
> >
> > Flash and Real's video codec are two of the very few
> > pieces of closed
> > source software many people still use regularly.
> > Seeing them spread
> > is not a good thing.
> >
> > A Good ThingTM would be Adobe contributing
> > programmer time,
> > documentation, or money toward Gnash or swfdec to
> > encourage
> > interoperability and standards.  I, for one, am not
> > excited to see
> > closed, buggy, impossible to fix software spread
> > onto platforms I have
> > a chance of using.
> >
> > --tim
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> >
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
Tom Warren
meijer ITS Enterprise Storage
Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE)
tomewarren at gmail.com
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From topher at wcsg.org  Sat Apr  5 13:09:18 2008
From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:09:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] Adobe, RealNetworks back Linux on MIDs
In-Reply-To: <15f732370804030649h2dc9ffak4dd3cd3516471684@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2c97fe9d0804021312i27bc1380y6434d002d971dcc8@mail.gmail.com>
	<415368.20347.qm@web80402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<15f732370804030649h2dc9ffak4dd3cd3516471684@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.0.82.0804051308370.17190@localhost>

> Didn't Realnetworks release the helix player as OSS?


Yes, but not their streaming protocols, which makes it Just Another 
Player, and not nearly as cool as many many other players out there.

>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:08 AM, John Harig <radiodurans at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Presentations?  Maybe we could have a debate about the
>> benefits of closed sourced software supporting linux?
>> ;)
>>
>> I don't see anything inherently bad in it. At least it
>> shows interest in linux and helps to make linux
>> products more competitive in the market as well as
>> generating more corporate interest.
>>
>> As long as consumers can choose which programs to
>> install and uninstall, closed and open source should
>> be able to  co-exist (as long as you know the security
>> risks and bug risks).  The problem comes if you "have"
>> to run it and have no other alternative.
>>
>> Yes, Adobe Flash is by no means perfect and it allowed
>> hackers to win the Pwn to Own challenge:
>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20080331/bs_nf/59043
>>
>> I am told that Ubuntu was just as vulnerable by people
>> who say they know a lot about security. But Microsoft,
>> for one reason or another, is a popular target for
>> hackers ;).
>>
>> The ideal end of any project is to become "open
>> source" (and many if not most projects should start
>> that way from the beginning), closed source isn't
>> necessarily a bad thing for development:
>>
>> http://discovermagazine.com/2007/dec/long-live-closed-source-software/
>>
>> I think specifically using Adobe Flash as a negative
>> is a bit unfair since Flash is a relatively recent
>> acquisition of Adobe (they have had only one major
>> boxed release of it I think?).
>>
>> Most of the people who work at Adobe are all about
>> open source, but they feel they need to develop things
>> more at their company and of course "the suits" need
>> to make money.  The main reason given why they never
>> wrote Photoshop for Linux is that they never felt they
>> could make money off of it, which may be one reason
>> why they are going with the web Photoshop project.
>>
>> I think a better Adobe counterexample is pdf, which
>> they developed and has been a format used for almost
>> forever in the linux community, and Adobe has turned
>> it over to make an ISO standard.
>> http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS7542722606.html
>>
>> Even before it was submitted to be an ISO standard
>> there were a great deal of 3rd party apps that you
>> could use for pdfs:
>>
>>
>> http://www.cogniview.com/convert-pdf-to-excel/post/pdf-editing-creation-50-open-sourcefree-alternatives-to-adobe-acrobat/
>>
>> As for RealMedia . . . yeah . . . at least it is a
>> voice of support for linux, albeit one I don't really
>> care for.  They don't offer anything usefully
>> innovative but always becomes a default standard
>> because they have been around for awhile. When it
>> started out it was pretty cool (for a closed-source
>> product) but then it started getting bloated with ads
>> and killed itself.  I would definitely be happier with
>> a xiph.org alternative codec (theora).
>>
>> Even if RealMedia is an impending failure, at least it
>> promotes more work on linux, and failures can always
>> teach lessons.
>>
>> --- Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Rich Nagel
>>> <networkman at triton.net> wrote:
>>>> Huh?  Why?  I'd think that backing from Adobe &
>>> RealNetworks would be a GOOD
>>>>  thing. :/
>>>>
>>>>  Please explain.
>>>
>>> Flash and Real's video codec are two of the very few
>>> pieces of closed
>>> source software many people still use regularly.
>>> Seeing them spread
>>> is not a good thing.
>>>
>>> A Good ThingTM would be Adobe contributing
>>> programmer time,
>>> documentation, or money toward Gnash or swfdec to
>>> encourage
>>> interoperability and standards.  I, for one, am not
>>> excited to see
>>> closed, buggy, impossible to fix software spread
>>> onto platforms I have
>>> a chance of using.
>>>
>>> --tim
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> grlug mailing list
>>> grlug at grlug.org
>>>
>> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> grlug mailing list
>> grlug at grlug.org
>> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Tom Warren
> meijer ITS Enterprise Storage
> Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE)
> tomewarren at gmail.com
>

From networkman at triton.net  Mon Apr  7 15:52:11 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (Rich Nagel)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:52:11 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Need Topics * GRLUG April Meeting - next week Thursday
	April 10th 6-8PM
References: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B415F8213@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <001701c898e8$df612760$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>

Hello GRLUG members,

Thought I'd give you all a heads-up.  I've already RSVP'd with Casey.  I'm planning to bring with me an IPAQ computer(Celeron 500 or P3-733 with 128meg ram), that we have configured to boot off of CD running Geexbox Linux.  The solution is designed to be as hands-off as possible for use by those with vision impairments. The PC connects over the internet to an audio stream provided by http://www.thesightseer.org an organization that provides a reading service to the blind and physically handicapped.  It's a non-profit and runs soley on donations -- there are no commericals in the broadcasts.  They've been broadcasting on a side-channel to fixed frequency radios in the past, but also now provide an audio stream on the web.  If you go to their web page and click on their icon it should spawn a player for the stream.

Right now, the CDRom based solution works, but I may need the group's help in making a hard drive based solution viable as well, since CDRom drives for IPAQs are somewhat difficult to obtain, cost being the most difficult hurdle.  I can explain at the meeting what we know so far and what we want to accomplish.  The solution has been promoted to several Lion's Clubs already so we're really excited to be making Linux an integral part of the solution. :)

Looking forward to seeing you all there!

Rich

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Casey DuBois 
  To: grlug at grlug.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 4:11 PM
  Subject: [GRLUG] Need Topics * GRLUG April Meeting - next week Thursday April 10th 6-8PM


  GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) April Meeting

  Food will be provided so please RSVP to cdubois at n-vint.com so I can make sure to have enough. 

  *Also let me know if you have any special needs (Allergies, Vegetarian, Etc.).

  Date and Time:

  Thursday April 10th

  6:00 PM - 8:00 PM (food will be ready @ 6:00)

  Location:
  N-Vint, Inc.

  3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
  http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industrial+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.765625&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr&om=1

  Topics:

  What do we want to discuss???

  Does anyone have a presentation???

   

  Sincerely,

  Casey M. DuBois

  N-VINT, Inc.

  3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316

  616-656-5500 Office

  866-337-2686 Direct

  AOL IM: CaseyNVINT

  cdubois at n-vint.com

   

  "Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems."
  -Linus Torvalds



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential information that is protected under state and/or federal law. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender by fax or email and delete this message. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and we shall not be responsible or liable for the proper and complete transmission of the information contained in this e-mail, any delay in its receipt or damage to your systems. We do not guarantee that the integrity of this e-mail has been maintained or that this e-mail is free of viruses, interception or interference. If you properly received this message, you may use its contents only in strict accordance with our instructions, please do not disseminate without permission of the author. If any person makes a false or misleading representation to obtain customer information, that person may have committed a federal crime, and we may report that person to the proper authorities.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com  Mon Apr  7 16:06:07 2008
From: Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com (Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 16:06:07 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Need Topics * GRLUG April Meeting - next week
 Thursday	April 10th 6-8PM
In-Reply-To: <001701c898e8$df612760$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
Message-ID: <OFEAC32616.DAD64363-ON85257424.006DC3AF-85257424.006E6A20@spartanstore.com>

Rich,
I'm sorry I can't make the meeting on the 10th, but I'm very interested in 
your IPAQ for the Blind project.  If you could send me any information you 
have as far as language, database, ports requirements, etc. I would 
appreciate it.  I've done some work in the '90s with a blind person who 
ran a snackbar, he's retired now, but the POS system was a super fun 
project.  I've loaded ubuntu onto an old Compaq server & that's about the 
extent of my training so far.  I plan to make it my linux/perl learning 
machine.  Please keep me in mind if you have anything a perl/linux noobie 
might be able to handle.
Thanks,
-Bill.





"Rich Nagel" <networkman at triton.net> 
Sent by: grlug-bounces at grlug.org
04/07/2008 03:52 PM
Please respond to
Rich Nagel <networkman at triton.net>; Please respond to
grlug at grlug.org


To
<grlug at grlug.org>
cc
AJ <f1tz81 at gmail.com>
Subject
Re: [GRLUG] Need Topics * GRLUG April Meeting - next week Thursday April 
10th 6-8PM






Hello GRLUG members,
 
Thought I'd give you all a heads-up.  I've already RSVP'd with Casey.  I'm 
planning to bring with me an IPAQ computer(Celeron 500 or P3-733 with 
128meg ram), that we have configured to boot off of CD running Geexbox 
Linux.  The solution is designed to be as hands-off as possible for use by 
those with vision impairments. The PC connects over the internet to an 
audio stream provided by http://www.thesightseer.org an organization that 
provides a reading service to the blind and physically handicapped.  It's 
a non-profit and runs soley on donations -- there are no commericals in 
the broadcasts.  They've been broadcasting on a side-channel to fixed 
frequency radios in the past, but also now provide an audio stream on the 
web.  If you go to their web page and click on their icon it should spawn 
a player for the stream.
 
Right now, the CDRom based solution works, but I may need the group's help 
in making a hard drive based solution viable as well, since CDRom drives 
for IPAQs are somewhat difficult to obtain, cost being the most difficult 
hurdle.  I can explain at the meeting what we know so far and what we want 
to accomplish.  The solution has been promoted to several Lion's Clubs 
already so we're really excited to be making Linux an integral part of the 
solution. :)
 
Looking forward to seeing you all there!
 
Rich
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Casey DuBois 
To: grlug at grlug.org 
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 4:11 PM
Subject: [GRLUG] Need Topics * GRLUG April Meeting - next week Thursday 
April 10th 6-8PM

GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) April Meeting
Food will be provided so please RSVP to cdubois at n-vint.com so I can make 
sure to have enough. 
*Also let me know if you have any special needs (Allergies, Vegetarian, 
Etc.).
Date and Time:
Thursday April 10th
6:00 PM - 8:00 PM (food will be ready @ 6:00)

Location:
N-Vint, Inc.
3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industrial+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.765625&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr&om=1
Topics:
What do we want to discuss???
Does anyone have a presentation???
 
Sincerely,
Casey M. DuBois
N-VINT, Inc.
3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316
616-656-5500 Office
866-337-2686 Direct
AOL IM: CaseyNVINT
cdubois at n-vint.com
 
"Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems."
-Linus Torvalds

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential information 
that is protected under state and/or federal law. If you received this 
message in error, please notify the sender by fax or email and delete this 
message. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and we shall 
not be responsible or liable for the proper and complete transmission of 
the information contained in this e-mail, any delay in its receipt or 
damage to your systems. We do not guarantee that the integrity of this 
e-mail has been maintained or that this e-mail is free of viruses, 
interception or interference. If you properly received this message, you 
may use its contents only in strict accordance with our instructions, 
please do not disseminate without permission of the author. If any person 
makes a false or misleading representation to obtain customer information, 
that person may have committed a federal crime, and we may report that 
person to the proper authorities.

_______________________________________________
grlug mailing list
grlug at grlug.org
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
_______________________________________________
grlug mailing list
grlug at grlug.org
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
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From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Mon Apr  7 17:30:28 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:30:28 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Need Topics * GRLUG April Meeting - next week Thursday
	April 10th 6-8PM
In-Reply-To: <OFEAC32616.DAD64363-ON85257424.006DC3AF-85257424.006E6A20@spartanstore.com>
References: <001701c898e8$df612760$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
	<OFEAC32616.DAD64363-ON85257424.006DC3AF-85257424.006E6A20@spartanstore.com>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0804071430l212df822o9baafe4d13fcfdbe@mail.gmail.com>

Psst guys.....

Blind Project....

the most common people always forget...

What about Deaf & Blind?

On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 4:06 PM, <Bill_Raterink at spartanstores.com> wrote:

>
> Rich,
> I'm sorry I can't make the meeting on the 10th, but I'm very interested in
> your IPAQ for the Blind project.  If you could send me any information you
> have as far as language, database, ports requirements, etc. I would
> appreciate it.  I've done some work in the '90s with a blind person who ran
> a snackbar, he's retired now, but the POS system was a super fun project.
>  I've loaded ubuntu onto an old Compaq server & that's about the extent of
> my training so far.  I plan to make it my linux/perl learning machine.
>  Please keep me in mind if you have anything a perl/linux noobie might be
> able to handle.
> Thanks,
> -Bill.
>
>
>
>
>   *"Rich Nagel" <networkman at triton.net>*
> Sent by: grlug-bounces at grlug.org
>
> 04/07/2008 03:52 PM   Please respond to
> Rich Nagel <networkman at triton.net>; Please respond to
> grlug at grlug.org
>
>    To
> <grlug at grlug.org>  cc
> AJ <f1tz81 at gmail.com>  Subject
> Re: [GRLUG] Need Topics * GRLUG April Meeting - next week Thursday
>  April 10th 6-8PM
>
>
>
>
> Hello GRLUG members,
>
> Thought I'd give you all a heads-up.  I've already RSVP'd with Casey.  I'm
> planning to bring with me an IPAQ computer(Celeron 500 or P3-733 with 128meg
> ram), that we have configured to boot off of CD running Geexbox Linux.  The
> solution is designed to be as hands-off as possible for use by those with
> vision impairments. The PC connects over the internet to an audio stream
> provided by *http://www.thesightseer.org* <http://www.thesightseer.org/>an organization that provides a reading service to the blind and physically
> handicapped.  It's a non-profit and runs soley on donations -- there are no
> commericals in the broadcasts.  They've been broadcasting on a side-channel
> to fixed frequency radios in the past, but also now provide an audio stream
> on the web.  If you go to their web page and click on their icon it should
> spawn a player for the stream.
>
> Right now, the CDRom based solution works, but I may need the group's help
> in making a hard drive based solution viable as well, since CDRom drives for
> IPAQs are somewhat difficult to obtain, cost being the most difficult
> hurdle.  I can explain at the meeting what we know so far and what we want
> to accomplish.  The solution has been promoted to several Lion's Clubs
> already so we're really excited to be making Linux an integral part of the
> solution. :)
>
> Looking forward to seeing you all there!
>
> Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* *Casey DuBois* <cdubois at n-vint.com>
> *To:* *grlug at grlug.org* <grlug at grlug.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 02, 2008 4:11 PM
> *Subject:* [GRLUG] Need Topics * GRLUG April Meeting - next week Thursday
> April 10th 6-8PM
>
> *GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) April Meeting*
> Food will be provided so please RSVP to *cdubois at n-vint.com*<cdubois at n-vint.com>so I can make sure to have enough.
> *Also let me know if you have any special needs (Allergies, Vegetarian,
> Etc.).
> *Date and Time:*
> Thursday April 10th
> 6:00 PM - 8:00 PM (food will be ready @ 6:00)*
>
> Location:*
> N-Vint, Inc.
> 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia*
> **
> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industrial+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.765625&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr&om=1
> *<http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industrial+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.765625&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr&om=1>
> *Topics:*
> *What do we want to discuss???*
> *Does anyone have a presentation???*
>
> Sincerely,
> *Casey M. DuBois*
> *N-VINT, Inc.*
> 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316
> 616-656-5500 Office
> *866-337-2686* Direct
> *AOL IM: CaseyNVINT*
> *cdubois at n-vint.com* <cdubois at n-vint.com>
>
> "Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems."
> -Linus Torvalds
>
>
> ------------------------------
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential information
> that is protected under state and/or federal law. If you received this
> message in error, please notify the sender by fax or email and delete this
> message. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and we shall not
> be responsible or liable for the proper and complete transmission of the
> information contained in this e-mail, any delay in its receipt or damage to
> your systems. We do not guarantee that the integrity of this e-mail has been
> maintained or that this e-mail is free of viruses, interception or
> interference. If you properly received this message, you may use its
> contents only in strict accordance with our instructions, please do not
> disseminate without permission of the author. If any person makes a false or
> misleading representation to obtain customer information, that person may
> have committed a federal crime, and we may report that person to the proper
> authorities.
>
> ------------------------------
>
>  _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug_______________________________________________
>
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha
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From tobert at gmail.com  Tue Apr  8 01:50:47 2008
From: tobert at gmail.com (Al Tobey)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 22:50:47 -0700
Subject: [GRLUG] Xen
In-Reply-To: <003a01c896d2$25b0c720$6401a8c0@710M>
References: <003a01c896d2$25b0c720$6401a8c0@710M>
Message-ID: <5ac7acb10804072250q7e867e7bof9bc9616f8858d31@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 9:04 PM, David Szostek <dave at uvhosting.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>  Consider a server with a 4TB RAID5 volume of SATA drives and a 450GB RAID 5
>  volume of 15k SCSI drives.
>
>  When creating a guest domain in Xen, we specify the main storage for it on
>  the 4TB volume when we create it.
>
>  We would also like to allow this guest domain some storage on the 450GB
>  volume.
>
>  How would this be accomplished? Anyone have any ideas? Google hasn't been
>  very helpful (though my search terms could suck too).

Sorry for the late post.   I don't follow the list very closely these
days, since I live in San Diego now ;)

I'm doing a big Xen rollout right now and for your situation, I'd
highly recommend LVM backed storage.    Put one volume group on the
4TB volume, and another on the 450GB volume.    Don't use the terrible
naming convention Fedora has by default - call them something useful
like vgxen00.

So if your 4TB drive is one LUN on /dev/sda, create one big partition
with type "Linux LVM" (8e) then:
pvcreate /dev/sda1
vgcreate vgxen00 /dev/sda1

Then you can lvcreate your VM's and do all kinds of neat stuff.
There are plenty of LVM howto's on the 'net.    virt-install also
supports LVM volumes and they're typically a bit faster than
file-backed VM's.

lvcreate -n ${vm_hostname}-disk0 -L 20G vgxen00

Good luck!
-Al Tobey

>
>  Thanks much!
>  ~dave
>
>
>  ------------------
>  Unlimited Ventures, 820 Monroe Ave NW - Suite 323, Grand Rapids, MI 49503.
>  Phone: (616) 723-0098. Fax: (616) 723-0099. Website: www.unlimitedventures.com
>
>  LEGAL NOTICE:  This e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender by reply e-mail or by calling (616) 723-0098 x 1002, delete the e-mail from your computer and do not copy or disclose it to anyone else. Unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, reliance or use is prohibited. Neither this e-mail nor its attachment(s) constitute an electronic signature or provide consent to contract electronically, unless expressly so stated by an Unlimited Ventures Officer in the body of this e-mail or an attachment.
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

From dave at unlimitedventures.com  Tue Apr  8 09:53:48 2008
From: dave at unlimitedventures.com (David Szostek)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 09:53:48 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Xen
In-Reply-To: <5ac7acb10804072250q7e867e7bof9bc9616f8858d31@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00cc01c8997f$f8df4fe0$6401a8c0@710M>

Thanks Al!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org 
> [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of Al Tobey
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 1:51 AM
> To: grlug at grlug.org
> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Xen
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 9:04 PM, David Szostek 
> <dave at uvhosting.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >  Consider a server with a 4TB RAID5 volume of SATA drives 
> and a 450GB 
> > RAID 5  volume of 15k SCSI drives.
> >
> >  When creating a guest domain in Xen, we specify the main 
> storage for 
> > it on  the 4TB volume when we create it.
> >
> >  We would also like to allow this guest domain some storage on the 
> > 450GB  volume.
> >
> >  How would this be accomplished? Anyone have any ideas? 
> Google hasn't 
> > been  very helpful (though my search terms could suck too).
> 
> Sorry for the late post.   I don't follow the list very closely these
> days, since I live in San Diego now ;)
> 
> I'm doing a big Xen rollout right now and for your situation, I'd
> highly recommend LVM backed storage.    Put one volume group on the
> 4TB volume, and another on the 450GB volume.    Don't use the terrible
> naming convention Fedora has by default - call them something 
> useful like vgxen00.
> 
> So if your 4TB drive is one LUN on /dev/sda, create one big 
> partition with type "Linux LVM" (8e) then: pvcreate /dev/sda1 
> vgcreate vgxen00 /dev/sda1
> 
> Then you can lvcreate your VM's and do all kinds of neat stuff.
> There are plenty of LVM howto's on the 'net.    virt-install also
> supports LVM volumes and they're typically a bit faster than 
> file-backed VM's.
> 
> lvcreate -n ${vm_hostname}-disk0 -L 20G vgxen00
> 
> Good luck!
> -Al Tobey
> 
> >
> >  Thanks much!
> >  ~dave
> >
> >
> >  ------------------
> >  Unlimited Ventures, 820 Monroe Ave NW - Suite 323, Grand 
> Rapids, MI 
> > 49503.
> >  Phone: (616) 723-0098. Fax: (616) 723-0099. Website: 
> www.unlimitedventures.com
> >
> >  LEGAL NOTICE:  This e-mail is for the exclusive use of the 
> intended 
> > recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, please 
> notify the 
> > sender by reply e-mail or by calling (616) 723-0098 x 1002, 
> delete the 
> > e-mail from your computer and do not copy or disclose it to anyone 
> > else. Unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, 
> reliance or use 
> > is prohibited. Neither this e-mail nor its attachment(s) 
> constitute an 
> > electronic signature or provide consent to contract electronically, 
> > unless expressly so stated by an Unlimited Ventures Officer in the 
> > body of this e-mail or an attachment.
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  grlug mailing list
> >  grlug at grlug.org  
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org 
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 


------------------
Unlimited Ventures, 820 Monroe Ave NW - Suite 323, Grand Rapids, MI 49503. 
Phone: (616) 723-0098. Fax: (616) 723-0099. Website: www.unlimitedventures.com

LEGAL NOTICE:  This e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender by reply e-mail or by calling (616) 723-0098 x 1002, delete the e-mail from your computer and do not copy or disclose it to anyone else. Unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, reliance or use is prohibited. Neither this e-mail nor its attachment(s) constitute an electronic signature or provide consent to contract electronically, unless expressly so stated by an Unlimited Ventures Officer in the body of this e-mail or an attachment.


From cdubois at n-vint.com  Tue Apr  8 15:34:21 2008
From: cdubois at n-vint.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 15:34:21 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] An Open Discussion of Open Source: How FREE Software Can
 Help Your Business
Message-ID: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B415F8ED3@NVMBX01.nvint.local>

Hello GRLUG,

I thought this meeting would be of interest.

aimWest April Meeting

TOPIC:
An Open Discussion of Open Source: How FREE Software Can Help Your Business

How can free software impact your bottom line? What does "free" really mean? Explore the myths and realities of open-source software in our interactive panel discussion.

Panelists will discuss the open-source software movement and how it affects businesses in every industry. We will address the opportunities and caveats of working with these free tools, and explore some of the options to select and implement these tools.

Most importantly, we want to answer your questions! This will be an audience-led discussion, so please come prepared with your own open-source queries.

The event is free for aimWest members.  $20 for non-members (cash or check).  If you would like to register for this event, click here<mailto:meetings at aimwest.org?body=Please%20include%20name%20and%20company%20affiliation%20below...&subject=Registration%20for%20May%2030th%202008%20aimWest%20Event%20-%20Open%20Source%20Discussion>.

Date and Time:
Wednesday April 30th
Networking @ 5:30 PM
Panel Discussion @ 6:30 PM

Location:
Eberhard Center, GVSU
301 Fulton St W
Grand Rapids, MI 49504

More Details:
http://www.aimwest.org/events/index.htm

Sincerely,
Casey M. DuBois
N-VINT, Inc.
3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316
616-656-5500 Office
866-337-2686 Direct
AOL IM: CaseyNVINT
cdubois at n-vint.com<mailto:cdubois at n-vint.com>

"Real men don't use backups, they post their stuff on a public ftp server and let the rest of the world make copies."
- Linus Torvalds


________________________________
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential information that is protected under state and/or federal law. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender by fax or email and delete this message. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and we shall not be responsible or liable for the proper and complete transmission of the information contained in this e-mail, any delay in its receipt or damage to your systems. We do not guarantee that the integrity of this e-mail has been maintained or that this e-mail is free of viruses, interception or interference. If you properly received this message, you may use its contents only in strict accordance with our instructions, please do not disseminate without permission of the author. If any person makes a false or misleading representation to obtain customer information, that person may have committed a federal crime, and we may report that person to the proper authorities.
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From cdubois at n-vint.com  Wed Apr  9 12:36:12 2008
From: cdubois at n-vint.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:36:12 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Reminder  GRLUG April Meeting - Tomorrow,
	Thursday April 10th 6-8PM
Message-ID: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B4165720F@NVMBX01.nvint.local>

GRLUG (Grand Rapids Linux Users Group) April Meeting
Food will be provided so please RSVP to cdubois at n-vint.com<mailto:cdubois at n-vint.com> so I can make sure to have enough.
Date and Time:
Thursday April 10th
6:00 PM - 8:00 PM (food will be ready @ 6:00)

Topics:
DEMO - www.thesightseer.org<http://www.thesightseer.org/>
I'm planning to bring with me an IPAQ computer(Celeron 500 or P3-733 with 128meg ram), that we have configured to boot off of CD running Geexbox Linux.  The solution is designed to be as hands-off as possible for use by those with vision impairments. The PC connects over the internet to an audio stream provided by http://www.thesightseer.org an organization that provides a reading service to the blind and physically handicapped.  It's a non-profit and runs soley on donations -- there are no commericals in the broadcasts.  They've been broadcasting on a side-channel to fixed frequency radios in the past, but also now provide an audio stream on the web.  If you go to their web page and click on their icon it should spawn a player for the stream.

Right now, the CDRom based solution works, but I may need the group's help in making a hard drive based solution viable as well, since CDRom drives for IPAQs are somewhat difficult to obtain, cost being the most difficult hurdle.  I can explain at the meeting what we know so far and what we want to accomplish.  The solution has been promoted to several Lion's Clubs already so we're really excited to be making Linux an integral part of the solution. :)

Debate about the benefits of closed sourced software supporting linux?

Boot and run Linux from a USB flash memory stick
www.pendrivelinux.com<http://www.pendrivelinux.com/>

Location:
N-Vint, Inc.
3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industrial+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.765625&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr&om=1

Sincerely,
Casey M. DuBois
N-VINT, Inc.
3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316
616-656-5500 Office
866-337-2686 Direct
AOL IM: CaseyNVINT
cdubois at n-vint.com<mailto:cdubois at n-vint.com>

"Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems."
-Linus Torvalds

________________________________
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential information that is protected under state and/or federal law. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender by fax or email and delete this message. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and we shall not be responsible or liable for the proper and complete transmission of the information contained in this e-mail, any delay in its receipt or damage to your systems. We do not guarantee that the integrity of this e-mail has been maintained or that this e-mail is free of viruses, interception or interference. If you properly received this message, you may use its contents only in strict accordance with our instructions, please do not disseminate without permission of the author. If any person makes a false or misleading representation to obtain customer information, that person may have committed a federal crime, and we may report that person to the proper authorities.
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From verduin at ameritech.net  Wed Apr  9 12:37:39 2008
From: verduin at ameritech.net (George (Skip) VerDuin)
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 12:37:39 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] BIND configuration for LAN
Message-ID: <1207759059.2929.419.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>

Greetings...

Is there an experienced BIND admin in GR-LUG who can take a few minutes
to "talk" to me?

Issue: I am running named on a LAN workstation, almost everything works
OK -- but I hold a public registration at no-ip.org that I have not
successfully "overridden" with a local LAN IP address only for private
machines on the LAN.  I believe the problem I can't solve relates to
forwarding a request when the local named can't find a reference in the
table.  ?An authority setting?

My workaround is to stop named while I need a no-ip IP from the public
name server.  This works, but is not a satisfactory situation.

If this sounds quickly solvable, let me know what you need to know...

THANKS!

Warmest regards from here,
George


From rick at vargo.org  Wed Apr  9 13:25:27 2008
From: rick at vargo.org (Rick Vargo)
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:25:27 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] BIND configuration for LAN
In-Reply-To: <1207759059.2929.419.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
References: <1207759059.2929.419.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
Message-ID: <47FCFC07.1000001@vargo.org>

George,

If the zone is locally defined on the machine running bind (either 
master or slave) it will not use forwarders for that domain because it 
thinks it is authoritative. You can however setup the zone in question 
to be dynamic and pull the info from no-ip using a script of sorts.

You may try adding both the local IP and the IP of no-ip's DNS servers 
to your resolv.conf file. This may or may not work. If it does there 
will be a delay as it queries named on your local box first for the IP 
address.

Rick


George (Skip) VerDuin wrote:
> Greetings...
>
> Is there an experienced BIND admin in GR-LUG who can take a few minutes
> to "talk" to me?
>
> Issue: I am running named on a LAN workstation, almost everything works
> OK -- but I hold a public registration at no-ip.org that I have not
> successfully "overridden" with a local LAN IP address only for private
> machines on the LAN.  I believe the problem I can't solve relates to
> forwarding a request when the local named can't find a reference in the
> table.  ?An authority setting?
>
> My workaround is to stop named while I need a no-ip IP from the public
> name server.  This works, but is not a satisfactory situation.
>
> If this sounds quickly solvable, let me know what you need to know...
>
> THANKS!
>
> Warmest regards from here,
> George
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>   

From cdubois at n-vint.com  Wed Apr  9 13:29:23 2008
From: cdubois at n-vint.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:29:23 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Linux showing signs of solid growth
Message-ID: <1BAA77C18160E14CBDF66C8369EDAFDB1B41657258@NVMBX01.nvint.local>

Linux showing signs of solid growth

http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/04/09/Linux-showing-signs-of-solid-growth_1.html?source=NLC-PLATFORMS&cgd=2008-04-09

Sincerely,
Casey M. DuBois
N-VINT, Inc.
3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316
616-656-5500 Office
866-337-2686 Direct
AOL IM: CaseyNVINT
cdubois at n-vint.com<mailto:cdubois at n-vint.com>

"To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer."


________________________________
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential information that is protected under state and/or federal law. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender by fax or email and delete this message. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and we shall not be responsible or liable for the proper and complete transmission of the information contained in this e-mail, any delay in its receipt or damage to your systems. We do not guarantee that the integrity of this e-mail has been maintained or that this e-mail is free of viruses, interception or interference. If you properly received this message, you may use its contents only in strict accordance with our instructions, please do not disseminate without permission of the author. If any person makes a false or misleading representation to obtain customer information, that person may have committed a federal crime, and we may report that person to the proper authorities.
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From dvz at cyberatech.com  Thu Apr 10 13:21:56 2008
From: dvz at cyberatech.com (David Vander Zwaag)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:21:56 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Squid to Authenticate against Active Directory
Message-ID: <b8ea32850804101021y7ba3b5f9r83999b7ce7938f97@mail.gmail.com>

I have been asked to setup a Squid server for my organization.  I have squid
up and running on a Fedora Core 8 OS.  I now need to have the users
authenticate against Active Directory.  I have found some articles on the
internet, but nothing has worked yet.  Has anyone done this before, and if
so, could someone provide examples.  I am running Squid Stable 2.6.

Thanks


David Vander Zwaag

TechVZ

dvz at techvz.com
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From timschmidt at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 13:32:02 2008
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:32:02 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Squid to Authenticate against Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <b8ea32850804101021y7ba3b5f9r83999b7ce7938f97@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b8ea32850804101021y7ba3b5f9r83999b7ce7938f97@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0804101032t3a0d34b2o17d10f391e421354@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 1:21 PM, David Vander Zwaag <dvz at cyberatech.com> wrote:
>  [snip]

Step 1: don't send HTML mail.

--tim

From profinuyasha at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 13:39:59 2008
From: profinuyasha at gmail.com (Professor Inuyasha)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:39:59 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Squid to Authenticate against Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0804101032t3a0d34b2o17d10f391e421354@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b8ea32850804101021y7ba3b5f9r83999b7ce7938f97@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0804101032t3a0d34b2o17d10f391e421354@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aecf8abe0804101039k4bf29c19s38d5b5b5efd9734f@mail.gmail.com>

*removing HTML*

I have been asked to setup a Squid server for my organization. I have squid
up and running on a Fedora Core 8 OS. I now need to have the users
authenticate against Active Directory. I have found some articles on the
internet, but nothing has worked yet. Has anyone done this before, and if
so, could someone provide examples. I am running Squid Stable 2.6.


David Vander Zwaag
TechVZ
dvz at techvz.com<dvz at techvz.com%22%3Edvz at techvz.com%3C/a%3E&nbsp;%3C/p%3E%3C/div>

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Tim Schmidt <timschmidt at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 1:21 PM, David Vander Zwaag <dvz at cyberatech.com>
> wrote:
> >  [snip]
>
> Step 1: don't send HTML mail.
>
> --tim
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
------------------
Professor Inuyasha
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From greg at gregfolkert.net  Thu Apr 10 14:13:19 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:13:19 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Squid to Authenticate against Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <b8ea32850804101021y7ba3b5f9r83999b7ce7938f97@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b8ea32850804101021y7ba3b5f9r83999b7ce7938f97@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1207851199.23791.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>

On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 13:21 -0400, David Vander Zwaag wrote:
> I have been asked to setup a Squid server for my organization.  I have squid
> up and running on a Fedora Core 8 OS.  I now need to have the users
> authenticate against Active Directory.  I have found some articles on the
> internet, but nothing has worked yet.  Has anyone done this before, and if
> so, could someone provide examples.  I am running Squid Stable 2.6.
> 
> Thanks

More than likely you are running up against the differences in NT_Auth
you are finding across the internet and your admins not your AD to act
as a credentails checking server, therefore allowing "old style" auth
with out the Kerberos ticketing being active.

One way o fix this, your admins need to allow legacy authentication for
the machine in question. That machine being the FC machine.

Another way would be to install SAMBA, join it to the AD and have you
users auth against the PAM stuff using Winbind to query AD.

This means setting up a "proper" Samba server but with out any home
directory enumeration or login being allowed. It *MUST* act as only an
"auth server" for local request (local coming from Squid).

Then you must setup squid to use "localhost" PAM authentication.


There are many examples of getting Samba joined to Active Directory and
getting PAM to use Winbind as the first source (vs files/nis/ldap/etc). 

There are also examples showing how to get Squid to use PAM.

If you get PAM to work with Windbind (and hence AD) and then get Squid
to use PAM... connect the dots.

Cheers.
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
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From thisboyiscrazy at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 14:21:56 2008
From: thisboyiscrazy at gmail.com (Joe Vanderstelt)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:21:56 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Squid to Authenticate against Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <1207851199.23791.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <b8ea32850804101021y7ba3b5f9r83999b7ce7938f97@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207851199.23791.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <cea1322a0804101121q798e62bcg8086c7e3cb601116@mail.gmail.com>

Would using squid_ldap_auth be a more direct approch?

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Greg Folkert <greg at gregfolkert.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 13:21 -0400, David Vander Zwaag wrote:
>  > I have been asked to setup a Squid server for my organization.  I have squid
>  > up and running on a Fedora Core 8 OS.  I now need to have the users
>  > authenticate against Active Directory.  I have found some articles on the
>  > internet, but nothing has worked yet.  Has anyone done this before, and if
>  > so, could someone provide examples.  I am running Squid Stable 2.6.
>  >
>  > Thanks
>
>  More than likely you are running up against the differences in NT_Auth
>  you are finding across the internet and your admins not your AD to act
>  as a credentails checking server, therefore allowing "old style" auth
>  with out the Kerberos ticketing being active.
>
>  One way o fix this, your admins need to allow legacy authentication for
>  the machine in question. That machine being the FC machine.
>
>  Another way would be to install SAMBA, join it to the AD and have you
>  users auth against the PAM stuff using Winbind to query AD.
>
>  This means setting up a "proper" Samba server but with out any home
>  directory enumeration or login being allowed. It *MUST* act as only an
>  "auth server" for local request (local coming from Squid).
>
>  Then you must setup squid to use "localhost" PAM authentication.
>
>
>  There are many examples of getting Samba joined to Active Directory and
>  getting PAM to use Winbind as the first source (vs files/nis/ldap/etc).
>
>  There are also examples showing how to get Squid to use PAM.
>
>  If you get PAM to work with Windbind (and hence AD) and then get Squid
>  to use PAM... connect the dots.
>
>  Cheers.
>  --
>  greg at gregfolkert.net
>  PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
>  Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
>  Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
>  Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
>
> _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

From drehfeldtusa at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 15:10:43 2008
From: drehfeldtusa at gmail.com (Douglas Rehfeldt)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:10:43 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Network gateway - Untangle
In-Reply-To: <mailman.682.1207851058.3996.grlug@grlug.org>
References: <mailman.682.1207851058.3996.grlug@grlug.org>
Message-ID: <1207854643.6865.18.camel@redtop>

Has anyone checked out the new network gateway, Untangle?  It's supposed
to be a "commercial-grade open source alternative to SonicWALL and
WatchGuard."  It reminds me of Smoothwall and other projects that use
open source software, but offer a paid version with additional
features. 

The free version provides 12 Applications, software updates and
community support through their Wiki and Forums.  A list of apps
includes:  Spam Blocker - Spyware Blocker - Open VPN - Web Filter -
Phish Blocker - Attack Blocker - Protocol Control - Virus Blocker -
Untangle Reports - Intrusion Prevention - Firewall - Router

http://www.untangle.com/

There is an a free and professional version.  The professional version
is supposed to be capable of integrating with Active Directory.  I do
notice that they use snort signatures, but their own engine for IPS.  I
would prefer a snort engine.


From colin at tankrip.com  Thu Apr 10 15:58:16 2008
From: colin at tankrip.com (Colin Vallance)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:58:16 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Network gateway - Untangle
In-Reply-To: <1207854643.6865.18.camel@redtop>
References: <mailman.682.1207851058.3996.grlug@grlug.org>
	<1207854643.6865.18.camel@redtop>
Message-ID: <223E675E-93FD-4B25-A046-10E71D64DEA9@tankrip.com>

That looks pretty slick actually.  We have Sonicwall stuff here at  
work and I know a bit about how it can indeed be a pain.  I'm  
currently "converting" a WatchGuard box in to a firewall/router/WAP  
but that's just going to run bare bones pyramid linux.

If anyone indeed has played with untangle I'd be interested to hear  
about it as well.  Just the virus and spam blocker may be enough for  
me to give it a shot.

-Colin


On Apr 10, 2008, at 3:10 PM, Douglas Rehfeldt wrote:

> Has anyone checked out the new network gateway, Untangle?  It's  
> supposed
> to be a "commercial-grade open source alternative to SonicWALL and
> WatchGuard."  It reminds me of Smoothwall and other projects that use
> open source software, but offer a paid version with additional
> features.
>
> The free version provides 12 Applications, software updates and
> community support through their Wiki and Forums.  A list of apps
> includes:  Spam Blocker - Spyware Blocker - Open VPN - Web Filter -
> Phish Blocker - Attack Blocker - Protocol Control - Virus Blocker -
> Untangle Reports - Intrusion Prevention - Firewall - Router
>
> http://www.untangle.com/
>
> There is an a free and professional version.  The professional version
> is supposed to be capable of integrating with Active Directory.  I do
> notice that they use snort signatures, but their own engine for  
> IPS.  I
> would prefer a snort engine.
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>


From dond at standalelumber.com  Thu Apr 10 16:23:07 2008
From: dond at standalelumber.com (Don Wood)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:23:07 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Network gateway - Untangle
In-Reply-To: <223E675E-93FD-4B25-A046-10E71D64DEA9@tankrip.com>
References: <mailman.682.1207851058.3996.grlug@grlug.org>	
	<1207854643.6865.18.camel@redtop>	
	<223E675E-93FD-4B25-A046-10E71D64DEA9@tankrip.com>
Message-ID: <1207858987.9715.9.camel@donw-laptop>




On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 15:58 -0400, Colin Vallance wrote:
> That looks pretty slick actually.  We have Sonicwall stuff here at  
> work and I know a bit about how it can indeed be a pain.  I'm  
> currently "converting" a WatchGuard box in to a firewall/router/WAP  
> but that's just going to run bare bones pyramid linux.
> 
> If anyone indeed has played with untangle I'd be interested to hear  
> about it as well.  Just the virus and spam blocker may be enough for  
> me to give it a shot.
> 
> -Colin
> 
> 
> On Apr 10, 2008, at 3:10 PM, Douglas Rehfeldt wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone checked out the new network gateway, Untangle?  It's  
> > supposed
> > to be a "commercial-grade open source alternative to SonicWALL and
> > WatchGuard."  It reminds me of Smoothwall and other projects that
> use
> > open source software, but offer a paid version with additional
> > features.
> >
> > The free version provides 12 Applications, software updates and
> > community support through their Wiki and Forums.  A list of apps
> > includes:  Spam Blocker - Spyware Blocker - Open VPN - Web Filter -
> > Phish Blocker - Attack Blocker - Protocol Control - Virus Blocker -
> > Untangle Reports - Intrusion Prevention - Firewall - Router
> >
> > http://www.untangle.com/
> >
> > There is an a free and professional version.  The professional
> version
> > is supposed to be capable of integrating with Active Directory.  I
> do
> > notice that they use snort signatures, but their own engine for  
> > IPS.  I
> > would prefer a snort engine.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug



We use Sonicwall too and would have to pay for most of these modules.
Seems too good to be true if it works as advertised.



From codeshepherd at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 17:08:30 2008
From: codeshepherd at gmail.com (Deepan)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 02:38:30 +0530
Subject: [GRLUG] Mysql connection problem
Message-ID: <b96882263ec76b280cbe60434c5de2f7@localhost.localdomain>

Hi All,
I am able to connect to Mysql via command line
using mysql client. I am also able to connect to
mysql via php if I run those php programs via
command line. However when I hit those php pages
via the browser it throws the error Can't connect
to local MySQL server through socket
'/tmp/mysql.sock' (2). Please note that this is
the same socket the mysql client tries to connect
to the server.
Regards 
Deepan 
Sudoku Solver: http://www.sudoku-solver.net/ 



From topher at wcsg.org  Thu Apr 10 17:35:27 2008
From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:35:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] Mysql connection problem
In-Reply-To: <b96882263ec76b280cbe60434c5de2f7@localhost.localdomain>
References: <b96882263ec76b280cbe60434c5de2f7@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.0.82.0804101735040.17190@localhost>

> I am able to connect to Mysql via command line using mysql client. I am 
> also able to connect to mysql via php if I run those php programs via 
> command line. However when I hit those php pages via the browser it 
> throws the error Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket 
> '/tmp/mysql.sock' (2). Please note that this is the same socket the 
> mysql client tries to connect to the server.

In your php, are you using localhost as the hostname, or an actual 
hostname?

From geektoyz at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 17:42:50 2008
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:42:50 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] BIND configuration for LAN
In-Reply-To: <47FCFC07.1000001@vargo.org>
References: <1207759059.2929.419.camel@tango.gfvhome.org>
	<47FCFC07.1000001@vargo.org>
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10804101442o13845cc8wead6dee6730013ec@mail.gmail.com>

George, I think Rick's on the money there...  I run BIND to resolve an
internal LAN, but have a zone defined for a particular domain (not
owned by us and totally unrelated).  While inside our network, you can
type "http://box1.notmine.com" and are directed to a local box serving
that domain.

While outside, "http://box1.notmine.com" likely doesn't exist, but
"http://www.notmine.com" surely does and takes you to their site.  I
guess the drawback to that approach is that we'll never see the actual
site from inside our LAN.  ;-)

So, define a "no-ip.org" zone for BIND in your local LAN and forward
for anything else to your ISP.

Excerpt from /etc/bind/named.conf.options  {in debian}:
 forwarders {
        208.67.222.222;
 };

Excerpt from /etc/bin/named.conf.local {in debian}:
zone "notmine.com" {
        type master;
        file "/etc/bind/zone.notmine.com";
};

zone "38.168.192.in-addr.arpa" {
        type master;
        file "/etc/bind/192.168.38.rev";
};

//--- Disable logging of "lame servers"
logging {
category lame-servers { null; };

};


cheers,
G-



On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Rick Vargo <rick at vargo.org> wrote:
> George,
>
>  If the zone is locally defined on the machine running bind (either
>  master or slave) it will not use forwarders for that domain because it
>  thinks it is authoritative. You can however setup the zone in question
>  to be dynamic and pull the info from no-ip using a script of sorts.
>
>  You may try adding both the local IP and the IP of no-ip's DNS servers
>  to your resolv.conf file. This may or may not work. If it does there
>  will be a delay as it queries named on your local box first for the IP
>  address.
>
>  Rick
>
>
>
>
>  George (Skip) VerDuin wrote:
>  > Greetings...
>  >
>  > Is there an experienced BIND admin in GR-LUG who can take a few minutes
>  > to "talk" to me?
>  >
>  > Issue: I am running named on a LAN workstation, almost everything works
>  > OK -- but I hold a public registration at no-ip.org that I have not
>  > successfully "overridden" with a local LAN IP address only for private
>  > machines on the LAN.  I believe the problem I can't solve relates to
>  > forwarding a request when the local named can't find a reference in the
>  > table.  ?An authority setting?
>  >
>  > My workaround is to stop named while I need a no-ip IP from the public
>  > name server.  This works, but is not a satisfactory situation.
>  >
>  > If this sounds quickly solvable, let me know what you need to know...
>  >
>  > THANKS!
>  >
>  > Warmest regards from here,
>  > George
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > grlug mailing list
>  > grlug at grlug.org
>  > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>  >
>  _______________________________________________
>  grlug mailing list
>  grlug at grlug.org
>  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Thu Apr 10 18:05:39 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:05:39 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Squid to Authenticate against Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <cea1322a0804101121q798e62bcg8086c7e3cb601116@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b8ea32850804101021y7ba3b5f9r83999b7ce7938f97@mail.gmail.com>
	<1207851199.23791.12.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
	<cea1322a0804101121q798e62bcg8086c7e3cb601116@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1207865139.23791.20.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 14:21 -0400, Joe Vanderstelt wrote:
> Would using squid_ldap_auth be a more direct approch?

Not really, as Micrsoft's Active directory cannot expose everything you
need to do it properly, plus the SSL/TLS certs business end will get
mighty tediuos rather quickly as Microsoft's implementation REALLY
*REALLY* hates self-signed certs.

You might get it to work, but as soon as you update your AD servers (in
Peer mode, right? not Primary/secondary) it'll break anything with
self-signed certs and you'll have to force it to re-accept them.

But, in the long run, you'll have better luck, keeping up with Samba and
Microsoft, vs Microsoft and keeping the LDAP stuff working.

> On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Greg Folkert <greg at gregfolkert.net> wrote:
> > On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 13:21 -0400, David Vander Zwaag wrote:
> >  > I have been asked to setup a Squid server for my organization.  I have squid
> >  > up and running on a Fedora Core 8 OS.  I now need to have the users
> >  > authenticate against Active Directory.  I have found some articles on the
> >  > internet, but nothing has worked yet.  Has anyone done this before, and if
> >  > so, could someone provide examples.  I am running Squid Stable 2.6.
> >  >
> >  > Thanks
> >
> >  More than likely you are running up against the differences in NT_Auth
> >  you are finding across the internet and your admins not your AD to act
> >  as a credentails checking server, therefore allowing "old style" auth
> >  with out the Kerberos ticketing being active.
[snip]
-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
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From blubdog at gmail.com  Thu Apr 10 19:17:44 2008
From: blubdog at gmail.com (Bruce Smith)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:17:44 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Squid to Authenticate against Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <aecf8abe0804101039k4bf29c19s38d5b5b5efd9734f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b8ea32850804101021y7ba3b5f9r83999b7ce7938f97@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0804101032t3a0d34b2o17d10f391e421354@mail.gmail.com>
	<aecf8abe0804101039k4bf29c19s38d5b5b5efd9734f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b52f2d360804101617i319f10d7ve0b9b2105dac5800@mail.gmail.com>

> I have been asked to setup a Squid server for my organization. I have squid
> up and running on a Fedora Core 8 OS. I now need to have the users
> authenticate against Active Directory. I have found some articles on the
> internet, but nothing has worked yet. Has anyone done this before, and if
> so, could someone provide examples. I am running Squid Stable 2.6.

I just got it working at my workplace.

With AD you cannot browse anonymously, so in the example below, I
authenticate as "AD User" with password "adpasswd" as a user in AD
who's pw never expires. (names & pw changed to protect my security :)

auth_param basic program /usr/sbin/squid_ldap_auth
 -P -R -b "CN=Users,DC=domain,DC=com"
 -D "CN=AD User,CN=Users,DC=domain,DC=com"
 -f "(&(sAMAccountName=%s)(objectClass=Person)(memberOf=CN=Internet,CN=Users,DC=domain,DC=com))"
 -w "adpasswd" adserver.domain.com

(all one long line, not broken up like I did for this posting)

This also only allows users who are a member of the group "Internet",
so you can select who can and who can't surf.

 - BS

From casey at grlug.org  Fri Apr 11 12:08:17 2008
From: casey at grlug.org (Casey DuBois)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:08:17 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] GRLUG Meetings
Message-ID: <f0ffba670804110908j65d834a2t101ae8a0faf31cef@mail.gmail.com>

Hello GRLUG,

I want to say THANK YOU to everyone that attended last night's meeting
and helped get the IPAQ/GeexBox install working for
www.thesightseer.org.

Mark your calendars for the next GRLUG meeting on May 15th.

Topics will be:
Debate about the benefits of closed sourced software supporting linux? (Tim)
Boot and run Linux from a USB flash memory stick -
www.pendrivelinux.com - bring in a USB flash drives with your favorite
Linux distro.
gOS

Regards,

Casey at grlug.org

From radiodurans at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 11 18:51:47 2008
From: radiodurans at yahoo.com (John Harig)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:51:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] GRLUG Meetings
In-Reply-To: <f0ffba670804110908j65d834a2t101ae8a0faf31cef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <142176.90796.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I just wanted to second that . . . given the very
limited resources (no vi???!!!) it was an awesome job.
 I learned a lot just watching.  Next time maybe next
time we can see try it with sed? :)


--- Casey DuBois <casey at grlug.org> wrote:

> Hello GRLUG,
> 
> I want to say THANK YOU to everyone that attended
> last night's meeting
> and helped get the IPAQ/GeexBox install working for
> www.thesightseer.org.
> 
> Mark your calendars for the next GRLUG meeting on
> May 15th.
> 
> Topics will be:
> Debate about the benefits of closed sourced software
> supporting linux? (Tim)
> Boot and run Linux from a USB flash memory stick -
> www.pendrivelinux.com - bring in a USB flash drives
> with your favorite
> Linux distro.
> gOS
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Casey at grlug.org
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
>
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 


From slestak989 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 11 19:06:04 2008
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:06:04 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] GRLUG Meetings
In-Reply-To: <142176.90796.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <142176.90796.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47FFEEDC.10905@gmail.com>

I wasn't at the meeting, but am very interested in the geexbox/sightseer 
project.  What was that?

Regards,

Steve R

From networkman at triton.net  Fri Apr 11 20:45:02 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (networkman at triton.net)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:45:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [GRLUG] GRLUG Meetings
In-Reply-To: <142176.90796.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <142176.90796.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2103.69.11.205.103.1207961102.squirrel@remotemail.triton.net>

Hello all,

Yes, I just wanted to say "Many thanks!" to all who participated and tried
their best to make the CD-to-HD conversion work.  I guess sometimes that
last 5 percent really is more problematic than the previous 95 percent!!

Great bunch of guys - loved the can-do attitude and teamwork!  I'm looking
forward to the next meeting!  Do you want me to try bring an easier
problem? :P

Rich



> I just wanted to second that . . . given the very
> limited resources (no vi???!!!) it was an awesome job.
>  I learned a lot just watching.  Next time maybe next
> time we can see try it with sed? :)
>
>
> --- Casey DuBois <casey at grlug.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello GRLUG,
>>
>> I want to say THANK YOU to everyone that attended
>> last night's meeting
>> and helped get the IPAQ/GeexBox install working for
>> www.thesightseer.org.
>>
>> Mark your calendars for the next GRLUG meeting on
>> May 15th.
>>
>> Topics will be:
>> Debate about the benefits of closed sourced software
>> supporting linux? (Tim)
>> Boot and run Linux from a USB flash memory stick -
>> www.pendrivelinux.com - bring in a USB flash drives
>> with your favorite
>> Linux distro.
>> gOS
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Casey at grlug.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> grlug mailing list
>> grlug at grlug.org
>>
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>



From greg at gregfolkert.net  Fri Apr 11 23:01:51 2008
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:01:51 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] GRLUG Meetings
In-Reply-To: <2103.69.11.205.103.1207961102.squirrel@remotemail.triton.net>
References: <142176.90796.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2103.69.11.205.103.1207961102.squirrel@remotemail.triton.net>
Message-ID: <1207969311.23791.22.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Fri, 2008-04-11 at 20:45 -0400, networkman at triton.net wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> Yes, I just wanted to say "Many thanks!" to all who participated and tried
> their best to make the CD-to-HD conversion work.  I guess sometimes that
> last 5 percent really is more problematic than the previous 95 percent!!
> 
> Great bunch of guys - loved the can-do attitude and teamwork!  I'm looking
> forward to the next meeting!  Do you want me to try bring an easier
> problem? :P


As the saying goes (some what paraphrased): 
	Given enough eyes, all bugs are shallow.

-- 
greg at gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
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From networkman at triton.net  Mon Apr 14 19:09:29 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (Rich Nagel)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:09:29 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG]  Question of how to copy 20 Gig HD to smaller HD?
Message-ID: <003001c89e84$98139130$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>

Greetings once again!

Where to start..?  Okay, here's what I know:  I don't understand what the process was to get necessary files copied onto the hard drive for the whole IPAQ/SightSeer project, but I know it's working on the one hard drive in the IPAQ.  So, what I attempted to do was to take an image of the drive so as to restore that to another hard drive.  Unfortunately, Symantec Ghost 8.0(Win32), with which I'm quite familiar doesn't work on the restoration part even though it's supposed to support ext2 & ext3.  What I get is gobbledy-gook that doesn't work.  Have also tried G4L and DD, both of which also seem to image fine but can't restore to another drive, even one the same size or larger. :(

Taking another tack, I ran across this nifty System Rescue CD located here: http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page which amoung other things has a utility called GPartEd - pretty cool actually.  Throwing caution to the wind, I managed to make a copy of the partition from the 20 Gig HD onto a 30 Gig HD that I had sitting around; doing so was successful, until I found I couldn't boot off the 30 Gig. Grr...  Thinking back to my DOS days, I remembered that partitions needed to be "Active" in order to boot, so I checked the "Flag" for the drive and found it wasn't set to "Boot" - checkmark on that - problem solved!  Working 30 Gig HD. :)

Okay, so now I've got a duplicate which is a big step forward!!  Next item: how to get it on a smaller hard drive?  Well, I found that GPartEd allows me to shrink partitions so I found I could shrink it down to around 572 meg and it would still work; going under about 540 meg(or roughly 512 multiplied out) gave me some "geometry errors", so I just left it at about 572 meg.  One would think I could then copy onto a smaller HD?  Wrong!!  Have tried a 4 gig, 8 gig, 10 gig, 15 gig - nothing works!  Ideally, I'd like to place this sucker on a 2 Gig drive, as that would allow me the greatest flexibility.  Any ideas?

By the way, I tried Acronis True Image (Echo Workstation) Trial, but apparently the "fully operational" version which lasts for 15 days doesn't bother mentioning that that's only inside of Windows!!   I'd created the bootable CD and it was ready to clone the 30 Gig onto a 4 Gig before reporting that issue.  Grrrr....  There's gonna be a heated note to Acronis about that one!

So I'm open to ideas.  Anyone?

Rich


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From networkman at triton.net  Mon Apr 14 19:38:03 2008
From: networkman at triton.net (Rich Nagel)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:38:03 -0400
Subject: [GRLUG] Question of how to copy 20 Gig HD to smaller HD?
References: <003001c89e84$98139130$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>
Message-ID: <005601c89e88$95d3b680$7e0aa8c0@kdl.net>

Yeah, now I'm replying to my own post because I have something to add that I don't completely understand.

For some reason, I began to think that there might be some hidden boot block or something that might not get included in the partition copying, so I figured what the heck?!  Why not try out a crazy idea - nothing else has worked!  So what I did was I used the original Sight Seer CD to install Geexbox 1.0 onto the 4 gig hard drive, partitioning it to just 600 meg, and let it do the install.  Did a test boot - booted as expected(without the auto-play).  Then I took the hd out and slaved it to the 30 Gig hd in another system, ran the GPartEd util and copied the partition from the 30 Gig onto the 4 gig hd (WITHOUT first deleting the existing 600meg partition on the 4 gig hd).  Everything copied fine, and I put the 4 Gig hd in the IPAQ -- and viola! it's booting and running perfectly.  Question now is: why?!?  :/

Rich

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rich Nagel 
  To: grlug at grlug.org 
  Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 7:09 PM
  Subject: [GRLUG] Question of how to copy 20 Gig HD to smaller HD?


  Greetings once again!

  Where to start..?  Okay, here's what I know:  I don't understand what the process was to get necessary files copied onto the hard drive for the whole IPAQ/SightSeer project, but I know it's working on the one hard drive in the IPAQ.  So, what I attempted to do was to take an image of the drive so as to restore that to another hard drive.  Unfortunately, Symantec Ghost 8.0(Win32), with which I'm quite familiar doesn't work on the restoration part even though it's supposed to support ext2 & ext3.  What I get is gobbledy-gook that doesn't work.  Have also tried G4L and DD, both of which also seem to image fine but can't restore to another drive, even one the same size or larger. :(

  Taking another tack, I ran across this nifty System Rescue CD located here: http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page which amoung other things has a utility called GPartEd - pretty cool actually.  Throwing caution to the wind, I managed to make a copy of the partition from the 20 Gig HD onto a 30 Gig HD that I had sitting around; doing so was successful, until I found I couldn't boot off the 30 Gig. Grr...  Thinking back to my DOS days, I remembered that partitions needed to be "Active" in order to boot, so I checked the "Flag" for the drive and found it wasn't set to "Boot" - checkmark on that - problem solved!  Working 30 Gig HD. :)

  Okay, so now I've got a duplicate which is a big step forward!!  Next item: how to get it on a smaller hard drive?  Well, I found that GPartEd allows me to shrink partitions so I found I could shrink it down to around 572 meg and it would still work; going under about 540 meg(or roughly 512 multiplied out) gave me some "geometry errors", so I just left it at about 572 meg.  One would think I could then copy onto a smaller