From bob.kline at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 16:15:12 2007 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:15:12 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 Message-ID: It's been a couple of weeks now since the launch, does anyone here have anything good to say about Ubuntu 7.10? Many of the reviews have been quite bullish. I'm running Kubuntu 7.04 now, and have so far taking an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach. But I'd hate to miss out on anything either.... -Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071101/4a550c1c/attachment.htm From joshgant at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 16:19:02 2007 From: joshgant at gmail.com (Josh Gant) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:19:02 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've noticed that on my box that has an intel graphics card, I lost all enhanced desktop effects. Nvidia cards have even more effects. Other than that it seems fine. On 11/1/07, Bob Kline wrote: > > It's been a couple of weeks now > since the launch, does anyone here > have anything good to say about > Ubuntu 7.10? > > Many of the reviews have been > quite bullish. I'm running > Kubuntu 7.04 now, and have so > far taking an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" > approach. But I'd hate to miss out on > anything either.... > > > -Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- Josh Gant 616.437.0060 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071101/099f9389/attachment.htm From bob.kline at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 16:23:56 2007 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:23:56 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There was a lot of talk about graphics cards early on. This has come up in reviews too. Is there anything to indicate that the Ubuntu people are addressing the issue? This is the kind of thing that would make me wait for a corrected version. -Bob On Nov 1, 2007 4:19 PM, Josh Gant wrote: > I've noticed that on my box that has an intel graphics card, I lost all > enhanced desktop effects. Nvidia cards have even more effects. Other than > that it seems fine. > > On 11/1/07, Bob Kline wrote: > > > It's been a couple of weeks now > > since the launch, does anyone here > > have anything good to say about > > Ubuntu 7.10? > > > > Many of the reviews have been > > quite bullish. I'm running > > Kubuntu 7.04 now, and have so > > far taking an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" > > approach. But I'd hate to miss out on > > anything either.... > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > grlug mailing list > > grlug at grlug.org > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > > > > -- > Josh Gant > 616.437.0060 > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071101/54d8c81a/attachment-0001.htm From ben at eavey.com Thu Nov 1 16:41:16 2007 From: ben at eavey.com (Benjamin Eavey) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 16:41:16 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <472A39EC.3090200@eavey.com> Bob Kline wrote: > It's been a couple of weeks now > since the launch, does anyone here > have anything good to say about > Ubuntu 7.10? I switched from 7.04 to 7.10 on my home machine and my work laptop. The home machine was running Feisty perfectly, so I went through the upgrade procedure to bring it to 7.10. My work laptop was all kinds of messed up anyway, so I wiped it clean and installed from scratch. I'm generally happy with both boxes, but I'm much more satisfied with the laptop that was loaded fresh. Everything is snappy and works well, and I even have dual-screen 3D effects now with the latest ATI driver (it's about time they got AIGLX working). The only problem I ran into was configuring the video, simply because I wanted to use the new driver (not included in the distro), and it's still a bit funky with dual screens. The end result is fantastic, though. I have absolutely no complaints now, and it runs great. The home machine, for whatever reason, seems to be a little pokier after the upgrade. I'm still quite happy with it, but there are some things that take just a bit longer than they used to. Most noticeable is the time it takes to get to a desktop after logging in, which has gone from just a few seconds in Feisty to nearly a minute in Gutsy. Granted, I haven't bothered to troubleshoot the problem at all, so it might be something simple. Hard to say. I like Gutsy a lot. I'd probably recommend installing fresh as opposed to upgrading, based on my own weird slowness experience and on what I've read from others about their own upgrade woes. Google around and see what people are saying. Overall, I'd say it's worth it... -Ben From mikemol at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 16:45:41 2007 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:45:41 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/1/07, Bob Kline wrote: > It's been a couple of weeks now > since the launch, does anyone here > have anything good to say about > Ubuntu 7.10? > > Many of the reviews have been > quite bullish. I'm running > Kubuntu 7.04 now, and have so > far taking an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" > approach. But I'd hate to miss out on > anything either.... > > I actually wrote a second review on my blog, earlier this week. Here's the text: So I've been using it a couple weeks, now, and I figured it was a good time to give it a second look. I've had to leave Compiz enabled, because without it, It becomes a hassle to have both Firefox open and watch videos using mplayer. (Firefox hogs X11's XV extension, thanks to the flash plugin. Compiz seems to perform the functional equivalent of providing a separate copy of the extension to anyone who asks for it.) As a result, I've learned a bit about its behavior. The alt-tab behavior is nice. I realize some of you more advanced folks (Including OS X users and Linux folks using experimental window managers as far back as 2002) have had window previews in your window-switching service for a while. Sure, yeah, it's a convenient feature if you've got multiple windows from the same app loaded. (Web development with Firefox would be a lot easier if I had this at work.) At home, that's not really an issue for me. What's really nice is how passing through the alt-tab list draws the window immediately to the foreground, before I let go of alt-tab. (FWIW, all my apps are full-screen at home, so I don't know if the window order is permanently adjusted as I pass through.) Now, on Windows, this would be a problem. Each time a portion of a window becomes visible, Windows sends the application a paint message to get it to redraw itself. At work, when my box was churning over one thing or another, or waiting on some silly user-global lock (Damn you Visual Studio, damn yooou!), I could watch the application ponderously fill in the window with information. In Gutsy Gibbon, with Compiz enabled, the screen contents just flip to the window, pre-drawn. (If I had to guess, I'd think the window never knew it was covered.) The screen changes quickly enough that the new data appears to be there right at the start of the screen's next vertical refresh. Also, there's a neat feature for dealing with unstable applications. If the application "stops responding", to steal a phrase from the Windows world, the window desaturates until it's wholly in grayscale. That way, you know why it's not doing what you thought it was doing. This doesn't seem to work entirely, though. I was scrolling through Google Reader--albeit painfully slowly--when the window desaturated. I hadn't stopped scrolling, and the window was still updating, but the window manager decided for some reason that the window had stopped responding. However, it corrected itself, and resaturated the window after I stopped rolling the scroll wheel on my mouse. However, Firefox seems to have taken a hit. It's weird. Up until a couple weeks ago, I never had noticeable stability problems with Firefox, at work or home, despite both machines being low-end (3GHz or 2.2GHz P4s, respectively, though the work machine has 2GB of RAM and the home machine only has 512MB/). In contrast, it's run slow or crashed three times in the last week. This is only at home, though. My box at work is still running strong. The obvious answer is that Firefox's memory leaks are likely coming into play earlier on my home box. And I'm still irritated that I can't play StepMania. That might change this weekend, though. -- :wq From mikemol at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 16:48:05 2007 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:48:05 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/1/07, Bob Kline wrote: > There was a lot of talk about > graphics cards early on. This > has come up in reviews too. > > Is there anything to indicate that > the Ubuntu people are addressing > the issue? This is the kind of thing > that would make me wait for a > corrected version. As I recall, the intel graphics issue is a problem with the Intel drivers. Intel had put the drivers on a back burner, betting nobody would release a mainstream distro with Compiz enabled by default. The Ubuntu folks enabled it by default, apparently to jog Intel into action. FWIW, my system uses an Intel chipset. > > On Nov 1, 2007 4:19 PM, Josh Gant wrote: > > I've noticed that on my box that has an intel graphics card, I lost all > enhanced desktop effects. Nvidia cards have even more effects. Other than > that it seems fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/1/07, Bob Kline wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's been a couple of weeks now > > > since the launch, does anyone here > > > have anything good to say about > > > Ubuntu 7.10? > > > > > > Many of the reviews have been > > > quite bullish. I'm running > > > Kubuntu 7.04 now, and have so > > > far taking an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" > > > approach. But I'd hate to miss out on > > > anything either.... > > > > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > grlug mailing list > > > grlug at grlug.org > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Josh Gant > > 616.437.0060 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > grlug mailing list > > grlug at grlug.org > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- :wq From matt.maxted at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 16:52:10 2007 From: matt.maxted at gmail.com (Matt Maxted) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:52:10 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have upgraded a Lenovo Thinkpad x60s from Feisty to Gusty. Everything went well with the exception of vmware server and display settings. I had to recompile vmware to their latest release. I am having difficulty with the dual screen options in Gusty. If your dual screens are permanent, it works great. If you use a laptop screen with another monitor and you undock and dock, then I run into issues. Other than that, my experience has been good. On 11/1/07, Michael Mol wrote: > > On 11/1/07, Bob Kline wrote: > > It's been a couple of weeks now > > since the launch, does anyone here > > have anything good to say about > > Ubuntu 7.10? > > > > Many of the reviews have been > > quite bullish. I'm running > > Kubuntu 7.04 now, and have so > > far taking an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" > > approach. But I'd hate to miss out on > > anything either.... > > > > > > I actually wrote a second review on my blog, earlier this week. > Here's the text: > > So I've been using it a couple weeks, now, and I figured it was a good > time to give it a second look. > > I've had to leave Compiz enabled, because without it, It becomes a > hassle to have both Firefox open and watch videos using mplayer. > (Firefox hogs X11's XV extension, thanks to the flash plugin. Compiz > seems to perform the functional equivalent of providing a separate > copy of the extension to anyone who asks for it.) As a result, I've > learned a bit about its behavior. > > The alt-tab behavior is nice. I realize some of you more advanced > folks (Including OS X users and Linux folks using experimental window > managers as far back as 2002) have had window previews in your > window-switching service for a while. Sure, yeah, it's a convenient > feature if you've got multiple windows from the same app loaded. (Web > development with Firefox would be a lot easier if I had this at work.) > At home, that's not really an issue for me. > > What's really nice is how passing through the alt-tab list draws the > window immediately to the foreground, before I let go of alt-tab. > (FWIW, all my apps are full-screen at home, so I don't know if the > window order is permanently adjusted as I pass through.) Now, on > Windows, this would be a problem. Each time a portion of a window > becomes visible, Windows sends the application a paint message to get > it to redraw itself. At work, when my box was churning over one thing > or another, or waiting on some silly user-global lock (Damn you Visual > Studio, damn yooou!), I could watch the application ponderously fill > in the window with information. > > In Gutsy Gibbon, with Compiz enabled, the screen contents just flip to > the window, pre-drawn. (If I had to guess, I'd think the window never > knew it was covered.) The screen changes quickly enough that the new > data appears to be there right at the start of the screen's next > vertical refresh. > > Also, there's a neat feature for dealing with unstable applications. > If the application "stops responding", to steal a phrase from the > Windows world, the window desaturates until it's wholly in grayscale. > That way, you know why it's not doing what you thought it was doing. > This doesn't seem to work entirely, though. I was scrolling through > Google Reader--albeit painfully slowly--when the window desaturated. I > hadn't stopped scrolling, and the window was still updating, but the > window manager decided for some reason that the window had stopped > responding. However, it corrected itself, and resaturated the window > after I stopped rolling the scroll wheel on my mouse. > > However, Firefox seems to have taken a hit. It's weird. Up until a > couple weeks ago, I never had noticeable stability problems with > Firefox, at work or home, despite both machines being low-end (3GHz or > 2.2GHz P4s, respectively, though the work machine has 2GB of RAM and > the home machine only has 512MB/). In contrast, it's run slow or > crashed three times in the last week. This is only at home, though. My > box at work is still running strong. The obvious answer is that > Firefox's memory leaks are likely coming into play earlier on my home > box. > > And I'm still irritated that I can't play StepMania. That might change > this weekend, though. > > > -- > :wq > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071101/1194e1a3/attachment-0001.htm From ben at eavey.com Thu Nov 1 16:53:51 2007 From: ben at eavey.com (Benjamin Eavey) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 16:53:51 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <472A3CDF.5090808@eavey.com> Michael Mol wrote: > The alt-tab behavior is nice. I realize some of you more advanced > folks (Including OS X users and Linux folks using experimental window > managers as far back as 2002) have had window previews in your > window-switching service for a while. Sure, yeah, it's a convenient > feature if you've got multiple windows from the same app loaded. (Web > development with Firefox would be a lot easier if I had this at work.) > At home, that's not really an issue for me. The Scale plugin for Compiz has become my new favorite method of switching windows. Have you played with it yet? It's enabled by default, I believe. Shift-Alt-Up arrow. Very nice. :) From bob.kline at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 17:06:08 2007 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 17:06:08 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've seen problems with Firefox under 7.04 if I leave it up long enough. Seems to depend on what I'm doing with Firefox. Number of windows, and maybe what's in them. Sometimes it will go a long time without problems, and other times I'll get a hard wedge. The screen locks up. I reboot, because I don't have a separate terminal hooked up, but it does come to that. Sad. Control of memory leakage has long been a hallmark of Unix and Linux. Using the supplied memory control routines you wonder how the application writers get it wrong. But then, I suppose Firefox could be tight, and the plugins are the problem? There are lots of them, and who knows who wrote some of them. -Bob On Nov 1, 2007 4:45 PM, Michael Mol wrote: > On 11/1/07, Bob Kline wrote: > > It's been a couple of weeks now > > since the launch, does anyone here > > have anything good to say about > > Ubuntu 7.10? > > > > Many of the reviews have been > > quite bullish. I'm running > > Kubuntu 7.04 now, and have so > > far taking an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" > > approach. But I'd hate to miss out on > > anything either.... > > > > > > I actually wrote a second review on my blog, earlier this week. > Here's the text: > > So I've been using it a couple weeks, now, and I figured it was a good > time to give it a second look. > > I've had to leave Compiz enabled, because without it, It becomes a > hassle to have both Firefox open and watch videos using mplayer. > (Firefox hogs X11's XV extension, thanks to the flash plugin. Compiz > seems to perform the functional equivalent of providing a separate > copy of the extension to anyone who asks for it.) As a result, I've > learned a bit about its behavior. > > The alt-tab behavior is nice. I realize some of you more advanced > folks (Including OS X users and Linux folks using experimental window > managers as far back as 2002) have had window previews in your > window-switching service for a while. Sure, yeah, it's a convenient > feature if you've got multiple windows from the same app loaded. (Web > development with Firefox would be a lot easier if I had this at work.) > At home, that's not really an issue for me. > > What's really nice is how passing through the alt-tab list draws the > window immediately to the foreground, before I let go of alt-tab. > (FWIW, all my apps are full-screen at home, so I don't know if the > window order is permanently adjusted as I pass through.) Now, on > Windows, this would be a problem. Each time a portion of a window > becomes visible, Windows sends the application a paint message to get > it to redraw itself. At work, when my box was churning over one thing > or another, or waiting on some silly user-global lock (Damn you Visual > Studio, damn yooou!), I could watch the application ponderously fill > in the window with information. > > In Gutsy Gibbon, with Compiz enabled, the screen contents just flip to > the window, pre-drawn. (If I had to guess, I'd think the window never > knew it was covered.) The screen changes quickly enough that the new > data appears to be there right at the start of the screen's next > vertical refresh. > > Also, there's a neat feature for dealing with unstable applications. > If the application "stops responding", to steal a phrase from the > Windows world, the window desaturates until it's wholly in grayscale. > That way, you know why it's not doing what you thought it was doing. > This doesn't seem to work entirely, though. I was scrolling through > Google Reader--albeit painfully slowly--when the window desaturated. I > hadn't stopped scrolling, and the window was still updating, but the > window manager decided for some reason that the window had stopped > responding. However, it corrected itself, and resaturated the window > after I stopped rolling the scroll wheel on my mouse. > > However, Firefox seems to have taken a hit. It's weird. Up until a > couple weeks ago, I never had noticeable stability problems with > Firefox, at work or home, despite both machines being low-end (3GHz or > 2.2GHz P4s, respectively, though the work machine has 2GB of RAM and > the home machine only has 512MB/). In contrast, it's run slow or > crashed three times in the last week. This is only at home, though. My > box at work is still running strong. The obvious answer is that > Firefox's memory leaks are likely coming into play earlier on my home > box. > > And I'm still irritated that I can't play StepMania. That might change > this weekend, though. > > > -- > :wq > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071101/6cadc3e9/attachment-0001.htm From brousch at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 20:57:13 2007 From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 20:57:13 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have not experienced problems with Firefox in Gutsy. I usually have two or more instances with 3-15 tabs open in each and leave them open sometimes for a week or more. My only plugin is Flashblock, so it may well be plugins that are responsible for your woes. On 11/1/07, Bob Kline wrote: > > I've seen problems with Firefox > under 7.04 if I leave it up long > enough. Seems to depend on what > I'm doing with Firefox. Number of > windows, and maybe what's in them. > > Sometimes it will go a long time > without problems, and other times > I'll get a hard wedge. The screen > locks up. I reboot, because I don't > have a separate terminal hooked up, > but it does come to that. > > Sad. Control of memory leakage > has long been a hallmark of Unix > and Linux. Using the supplied > memory control routines you wonder > how the application writers get it > wrong. But then, I suppose Firefox > could be tight, and the plugins are > the problem? There are lots of them, > and who knows who wrote some of > them. > > -Bob > > > On Nov 1, 2007 4:45 PM, Michael Mol wrote: > > > On 11/1/07, Bob Kline < bob.kline at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > It's been a couple of weeks now > > > since the launch, does anyone here > > > have anything good to say about > > > Ubuntu 7.10 ? > > > > > > Many of the reviews have been > > > quite bullish. I'm running > > > Kubuntu 7.04 now, and have so > > > far taking an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" > > > approach. But I'd hate to miss out on > > > anything either.... > > > > > > > > > > I actually wrote a second review on my blog, earlier this week. > > Here's the text: > > > > So I've been using it a couple weeks, now, and I figured it was a good > > time to give it a second look. > > > > I've had to leave Compiz enabled, because without it, It becomes a > > hassle to have both Firefox open and watch videos using mplayer. > > (Firefox hogs X11's XV extension, thanks to the flash plugin. Compiz > > seems to perform the functional equivalent of providing a separate > > copy of the extension to anyone who asks for it.) As a result, I've > > learned a bit about its behavior. > > > > The alt-tab behavior is nice. I realize some of you more advanced > > folks (Including OS X users and Linux folks using experimental window > > managers as far back as 2002) have had window previews in your > > window-switching service for a while. Sure, yeah, it's a convenient > > feature if you've got multiple windows from the same app loaded. (Web > > development with Firefox would be a lot easier if I had this at work.) > > At home, that's not really an issue for me. > > > > What's really nice is how passing through the alt-tab list draws the > > window immediately to the foreground, before I let go of alt-tab. > > (FWIW, all my apps are full-screen at home, so I don't know if the > > window order is permanently adjusted as I pass through.) Now, on > > Windows, this would be a problem. Each time a portion of a window > > becomes visible, Windows sends the application a paint message to get > > it to redraw itself. At work, when my box was churning over one thing > > or another, or waiting on some silly user-global lock (Damn you Visual > > Studio, damn yooou!), I could watch the application ponderously fill > > in the window with information. > > > > In Gutsy Gibbon, with Compiz enabled, the screen contents just flip to > > the window, pre-drawn. (If I had to guess, I'd think the window never > > knew it was covered.) The screen changes quickly enough that the new > > data appears to be there right at the start of the screen's next > > vertical refresh. > > > > Also, there's a neat feature for dealing with unstable applications. > > If the application "stops responding", to steal a phrase from the > > Windows world, the window desaturates until it's wholly in grayscale. > > That way, you know why it's not doing what you thought it was doing. > > This doesn't seem to work entirely, though. I was scrolling through > > Google Reader--albeit painfully slowly--when the window desaturated. I > > hadn't stopped scrolling, and the window was still updating, but the > > window manager decided for some reason that the window had stopped > > responding. However, it corrected itself, and resaturated the window > > after I stopped rolling the scroll wheel on my mouse. > > > > However, Firefox seems to have taken a hit. It's weird. Up until a > > couple weeks ago, I never had noticeable stability problems with > > Firefox, at work or home, despite both machines being low-end (3GHz or > > 2.2GHz P4s, respectively, though the work machine has 2GB of RAM and > > the home machine only has 512MB/). In contrast, it's run slow or > > crashed three times in the last week. This is only at home, though. My > > box at work is still running strong. The obvious answer is that > > Firefox's memory leaks are likely coming into play earlier on my home > > box. > > > > And I'm still irritated that I can't play StepMania. That might change > > this weekend, though. > > > > > > -- > > :wq > > > > _______________________________________________ > > grlug mailing list > > grlug at grlug.org > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071101/5ce552fb/attachment.htm From topher at wcsg.org Thu Nov 1 21:29:40 2007 From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Bob Kline wrote: > I've seen problems with Firefox > under 7.04 if I leave it up long > enough. Seems to depend on what > I'm doing with Firefox. Number of > windows, and maybe what's in them. Bob, just out of curiosity, why are your posts always so narrow? Topher Manager of Internet Services Cornerstone University Radio ------ "I laughed, I cried, it moved me, Bob" -- Larry Boy From bob.kline at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 21:45:24 2007 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:45:24 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's something I started doing with all my e-mails. Newspaper columns are as narrow as they are so people can read them without moving their eyes. Bottom line, it's much faster than trying to follow a long line across a page. Just a habit I got in to. -Bob On Nov 1, 2007 9:29 PM, Topher wrote: > On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Bob Kline wrote: > > > I've seen problems with Firefox > > under 7.04 if I leave it up long > > enough. Seems to depend on what > > I'm doing with Firefox. Number of > > windows, and maybe what's in them. > > Bob, just out of curiosity, why are your posts always so narrow? > > Topher > Manager of Internet Services > Cornerstone University Radio > > ------ > "I laughed, I cried, it moved me, Bob" > -- Larry Boy > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071101/0205b620/attachment.htm From driveray at ameritech.net Thu Nov 1 23:29:21 2007 From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 23:29:21 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <472A9991.80404@ameritech.net> Bob Kline wrote: started doing > with all my e-mails. Newspaper > columns are as narrow as they > are so people can read them > without moving their eyes. Moving up and down is motion just as much as back and forth is. > Bottom line, it's much faster > than trying to follow a long line > across a page. > W i t h i n l i m i t s , m a y b e . Generally I prefer longer lines, depending on the situation. I have encountered this "less movement" argument before and I'm frankly puzzled by it. Not only is up to down just as much "motion" as left to right. But I would argue that reading more, shorter, lines involves more, and more complex, eye movement. To be specific: reading one long line, from left to right, is a single fluid motion; reading several shorter lines entails just as much left to right movement, PLUS there is the downward and right to left movement, and in addition to that each "new line" entails the mental effort of finding the beginning of the CORRECT line. Granted, this last argument cuts both ways. The longer the line, the more effort is required to find the beginning of the following line. Conversely the shorter the lines, the more often the reader has to make this effort. Invariably a compromise must be made, and where to make it is, IMHO, both situational and subjective. By situational, I mean both the content of the text, and where it is to be displayed or printed. I think the reason newspaper columns are printed the way they are has as much to do with over all page lay out: such considerations as which and how many articles are "above the fold", and other placement considerations, as to do with the simple readability of the column. When it comes to the command line I go to great lengths (pun accidental, but I'll take it) to avoid line wrap. This applies to source code generally, but especially command lines. Maybe it's my own limited "attention span band width", but when I'm trying to mentally parse the meaning of complicated code I find it distracting to have to "hold that idea" while my attention is diverted to finding the line continuation. Of course the notion of "phrasing" borrowed from music helps in this regard. Subjective is of course subjective. I find general text reading to be most comfortable at around 72-80 characters per line. And here I was about to point out that the rfc standard for mail was 72. I was about to be wrong :) I just double checked the Netiquette Guidelines in rfc1855 and it says: > - Limit line length to fewer than 65 characters and end a line > with a carriage return. I still prefer 72-80, but it's not much different. Your narrow posts are well within the rfc, b u t t h e n a g a i n , s o i s t h i s . You are, of course, free to post as you like. I won't complain. But If you want input on the subject I, for one, prefer lines around 65-80 character lines. Raymond McLaughlin From driveray at ameritech.net Thu Nov 1 23:37:01 2007 From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 23:37:01 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <472A9B5D.6070707@ameritech.net> Matt Maxted wrote: > I have upgraded a Lenovo Thinkpad x60s from Feisty to Gusty. Everything > went well with the exception of vmware server and display settings. I > had to recompile vmware to their latest release. Did you actually compile from source, or are you talking about re-running vmware-config.pl ? Raymond McLaughlin From driveray at ameritech.net Fri Nov 2 00:12:53 2007 From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:12:53 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <472AA3C5.4050702@ameritech.net> Bob Kline wrote: > I've seen problems with Firefox > under 7.04 if I leave it up long > enough. Seems to depend on what > I'm doing with Firefox. Number of > windows, and maybe what's in them. > > Sometimes it will go a long time > without problems, and other times > I'll get a hard wedge. The screen > locks up. I reboot, because I don't > have a separate terminal hooked up, > but it does come to that. Do you know about using ++ to switch to a real, text mode, console? And failing that ++ will kill/restart your grapic display, still better than rebooting the whole machine. No offense if you do, some people don't. In many instances a program can lock up the graphical display, but you can still get to a text console to kill the rogue process(es). Still there are times when a program grabs the console so tightly that ++ works. I had this happen this afternoon while running adobe acrobat reader through an ssh tunnel. It's in cases like this that a second computer is handy so you can ssh in to fix things, which is what I did. > Sad. Control of memory leakage > has long been a hallmark of Unix > and Linux. Unix and Linux, as opposed to what? Actually the whole mozilla family of browsers are notorious for leaking memory regardless of the platform, although some blame must be assigned to the OS for permitting it. Actually, in some cases, it could be the display driver and/or the windowmanager/ desktop environment. Generally I think that if killing all instances of the application and then restarting it clears things up then I would say it was a case of the application "fouling it's own nest". In my experience periodically (every couple of days, depending on usage) closing all instances of firefox helps keep these problems at bay. > Using the supplied > memory control routines you wonder > how the application writers get it > wrong. But then, I suppose Firefox > could be tight, and the plugins are > the problem? The flash-player plugin is notorious for this. I also sometimes find that flash "enhanced" web pages will grab and hold my sound card so that I get "device busy" errors when I try to play music or movies. For these and other reasons I recommend the flashblock addin. Raymond McLaughlin > There are lots of them, > and who knows who wrote some of > them. > > -Bob From bob.kline at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 00:22:48 2007 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 00:22:48 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: <472AA3C5.4050702@ameritech.net> References: <472AA3C5.4050702@ameritech.net> Message-ID: On Nov 2, 2007 12:12 AM, Raymond McLaughlin wrote: > Bob Kline wrote: > > zilla family of > browsers are notorious for leaking memory regardless of the platform, > although some blame must be assigned to the OS for permitting it. > > > > Sad. Control of memory leakage > > has long been a hallmark of Unix > > and Linux. > > Unix and Linux, as opposed to what? > > Raymond McLaughlin > Windoz. -Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/e45a3c15/attachment.htm From driveray at ameritech.net Fri Nov 2 00:20:33 2007 From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:20:33 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <472AA591.9040408@ameritech.net> Ben Rousch wrote: > I have not experienced problems with Firefox in Gutsy. I usually have > two or more instances with 3-15 tabs open in each and leave them open > sometimes for a week or more. My only plugin is Flashblock, Your ONLY plugin??? If you don't have the flashplayer plugin installed, what does the flashblock plugin do for you? > so it may well be plugins that are responsible for your woes. > > -- > :wq From jtr at jrichards.org Fri Nov 2 08:06:46 2007 From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:06:46 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: <472A9991.80404@ameritech.net> References: <472A9991.80404@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <20071102120646.GA2956@jrichards.org> On Thu, Nov 01, 2007 at 11:29:21PM -0400, Raymond McLaughlin wrote: > Bob Kline wrote: > started doing > > with all my e-mails. Newspaper > > columns are as narrow as they > > are so people can read them > > without moving their eyes. > > Moving up and down is motion just as much as back and forth is. > > > Bottom line, it's much faster > > than trying to follow a long line > > across a page. > > [snip] > > Generally I prefer longer lines, depending on the situation. I have > encountered this "less movement" argument before and I'm frankly puzzled > by it. Not only is up to down just as much "motion" as left to right. > But I would argue that reading more, shorter, lines involves more, and > more complex, eye movement. To be specific: reading one long line, from > left to right, is a single fluid motion; reading several shorter lines > entails just as much left to right movement, PLUS there is the downward > and right to left movement, and in addition to that each "new line" > entails the mental effort of finding the beginning of the CORRECT line. > > Granted, this last argument cuts both ways. The longer the line, the > more effort is required to find the beginning of the following line. > Conversely the shorter the lines, the more often the reader has to make > this effort. Invariably a compromise must be made, and where to make it > is, IMHO, both situational and subjective. Bob is correct. Shorter lines such as his are easier to read on a printed page. Ever wonder why Bibles are printed with two narrow columns rather than like most other books? It is for this reason: it is easier to read. It makes sense that the eye has less up and down movement with longer lines but the reality is that most people have a much more difficult time moving their eyes back to the beginning of the next line if it is several inches away from the end of the previous line. So the reality is that the extra eye movements are compensated by a lack of "getting lost" trying to find the next line. [snip] > Your narrow posts are well within the rfc, > b > u > t > > t > h > e > n > > a > g > a > i > n > , > > s > o > > i > s > > t > h > i > s > . > > You are, of course, free to post as you like. I won't complain. But If > you want input on the subject I, for one, prefer lines around 65-80 > character lines. Heh. If people posted like *that*, methinks I would unsubscribe. :-) -- john-thomas ------ Grace is a provision for men who are so fallen that they cannot lift the axe of justice, so corrupt that they cannot change their own natures, so averse to God that they cannot turn to Him, so blind that they cannot see Him, so deaf that they cannot hear Him, and so dead that He Himself must open their graves and lift them into resurrection. G.S. Bishop From brousch at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 08:13:47 2007 From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:13:47 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: <472AA591.9040408@ameritech.net> References: <472AA591.9040408@ameritech.net> Message-ID: On 11/2/07, Raymond McLaughlin wrote: > > Ben Rousch wrote: > > I have not experienced problems with Firefox in Gutsy. I usually have > > two or more instances with 3-15 tabs open in each and leave them open > > sometimes for a week or more. My only plugin is Flashblock, > > Your ONLY plugin??? > If you don't have the flashplayer plugin installed, what does the > flashblock plugin do for you? You are correct. I got plugins confused with Firefox Add-ons. Flashblock is the only one listed in Firefox Add-ons, but by looking at my ~/.mozilla/firefox/pluginreg.dat I see a few more (Flash, Totem, and Java). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/7fcdc495/attachment-0001.htm From brousch at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 08:23:29 2007 From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:23:29 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: <20071102120646.GA2956@jrichards.org> References: <472A9991.80404@ameritech.net> <20071102120646.GA2956@jrichards.org> Message-ID: I prefer to let the email recipient handle line length rather than try to guess what he wants while I'm writing. If you want lines 65 characters long, then set your email client to wrap it there. If you want lines that span all available space (like I do), then maximize the reading area. I've 1600x1200 here, so I don't want a 2" wide column of words with 8" of whitespace next to it! Also it is annoying if you're reading at 50 columns and your sender has new lines every 65 columns so you get a normal line followed by a short line. Are there any modern email clients that won't wrap text automatically? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/defanged-5027 Size: 642 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/f3ba1cc0/attachment.bin From adderd at kkmfg.com Fri Nov 2 08:24:44 2007 From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin Kidder) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 08:24:44 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: <20071102120646.GA2956@jrichards.org> References: <472A9991.80404@ameritech.net> <20071102120646.GA2956@jrichards.org> Message-ID: <472B170C.6050901@kkmfg.com> john-thomas richards wrote: > > Bob is correct. Shorter lines such as his are easier to read on a printed > page. Ever wonder why Bibles are printed with two narrow columns rather than > like most other books? It is for this reason: it is easier to read. It > makes sense that the eye has less up and down movement with longer lines but > the reality is that most people have a much more difficult time moving their > eyes back to the beginning of the next line if it is several inches away from > the end of the previous line. So the reality is that the extra eye movements > are compensated by a lack of "getting lost" trying to find the next line. > > [snip] > Umm... No... try again... Bob's posts are way harder to read. Take your post for instance. That's a nice, easy to read line length. His posts are like reading an obituary. The number of characters across a line in a paperback novel is really a decent compromise between long and short line length. Too short is just as annoying as READING ALL CAPS. From justin.denick at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 08:37:32 2007 From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:37:32 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: <472B170C.6050901@kkmfg.com> References: <472A9991.80404@ameritech.net> <20071102120646.GA2956@jrichards.org> <472B170C.6050901@kkmfg.com> Message-ID: <81e08d920711020537p6e4e5636g49a426bbbb88ef8a@mail.gmail.com> On 11/2/07, Collin Kidder wrote: > > john-thomas richards wrote: > > > > Bob is correct. Shorter lines such as his are easier to read on a > printed > > page. Ever wonder why Bibles are printed with two narrow columns rather > than > > like most other books? It is for this reason: it is easier to read. It > > makes sense that the eye has less up and down movement with longer lines > but > > the reality is that most people have a much more difficult time moving > their > > eyes back to the beginning of the next line if it is several inches away > from > > the end of the previous line. So the reality is that the extra eye > movements > > are compensated by a lack of "getting lost" trying to find the next > line. > > > > [snip] > > > Umm... No... try again... Bob's posts are way harder to read. Take your > post for instance. That's a nice, easy to read line length. His posts > are like reading an obituary. The number of characters across a line in > a paperback novel is really a decent compromise between long and short > line length. Too short is just as annoying as READING ALL CAPS. The writing style should be suitable for the intended audience. Newspapers have columns, to maximize the amount of content and structure the flow of text around captions and pictures. Nobody wants to read paragraph that has only one or two words in it, with others having been mangled by hyphenations. Like wise nobody wants to read a line that has too many words in it. But hey, I went to Grand Rapids Public, so I may not be the one to say which is best. When coding, I tend to really over do the format, double spaces, camelBack, 2 space indentation, and I like my comments to be written in Arabic with butter and jam, so that I can really obfuscate my program. That last part was a complete dramatization. _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- In vino veritas. [In wine there is truth.] -- Pliny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/f744ee1c/attachment.htm From justin.denick at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 08:40:28 2007 From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:40:28 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors Message-ID: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> All this jazz about writing got me thinking about programming practice and coding styles What about you? How do you code? What's your favorite editor. I like Kate. Simple, fast, opens remote files, great syntax highlighting, though I wish it would utilize the html tag completion that we see in Quanta. I've installed Eclipse, but found it to be more difficult than it was worth, cause everything revolves around java. I tried Bluefish, but I didn't like that one either. Too much overhead. I used to use vim exclusively, but I like having the ability to scroll, and I don't get that with vim. -- In vino veritas. [In wine there is truth.] -- Pliny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/36bc71a3/attachment-0001.htm From topher at wcsg.org Fri Nov 2 08:42:02 2007 From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: <472B170C.6050901@kkmfg.com> References: <472A9991.80404@ameritech.net> <20071102120646.GA2956@jrichards.org> <472B170C.6050901@kkmfg.com> Message-ID: Sorry Bob, I didn't mean to rain on your parade, I was just curious. :) Topher Manager of Internet Services Cornerstone University Radio ------ "Usually people believe their motives and emotions are known to themselves alone, yet few things remain concealed from an intelligent observer with time to see, to consider, and to speculate." -- Louis L'Amour, Guns of the Timberlands From brousch at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 08:53:54 2007 From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:53:54 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/2/07, Justin Denick wrote: > > All this jazz about writing got me thinking about programming practice and > coding styles > > What about you? > How do you code? > What's your favorite editor. When I was writing PHP, I liked gPHPEdit. Now that I'm writing Java, I'm in love with Netbeans. The GUI builder is fantastic. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/7c43494d/attachment.htm From mikemol at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 08:58:02 2007 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:58:02 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/2/07, Justin Denick wrote: > All this jazz about writing got me thinking about programming practice and > coding styles > > What about you? > How do you code? By my self, getting another coder's eyes as needed. > What's your favorite editor. > I like Kate. Simple, fast, opens remote files, great syntax highlighting, > though I wish it would utilize the html tag completion that we see in > Quanta. > I've installed Eclipse, but found it to be more difficult than it was worth, > cause everything revolves around java. > I tried Bluefish, but I didn't like that one either. Too much overhead. > I used to use vim exclusively, but I like having the ability to scroll, and > I don't get that with vim. On Linux, I've primarily used vim or JEdit, though I gave KDevelop a shot years ago. For PHP, HTML and Javascript work, I use JEdit, regardless of OS. -- :wq From ben at eavey.com Fri Nov 2 09:01:16 2007 From: ben at eavey.com (Benjamin Eavey) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:01:16 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <472B1F9C.5060806@eavey.com> Justin Denick wrote: > I used to use vim exclusively, but I like having the ability to scroll, > and I don't get that with vim. You don't? Weird... works for me. -Ben From justin.denick at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 09:21:32 2007 From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 09:21:32 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <472B1F9C.5060806@eavey.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> <472B1F9C.5060806@eavey.com> Message-ID: <81e08d920711020621m71f2b649s5566584247431ef4@mail.gmail.com> On 11/2/07, Benjamin Eavey wrote: > > Justin Denick wrote: > > I used to use vim exclusively, but I like having the ability to scroll, > > and I don't get that with vim. > > You don't? Weird... works for me. With a mouse or the keyboard? -Ben > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- In vino veritas. [In wine there is truth.] -- Pliny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/21a2a360/attachment.htm From ben at eavey.com Fri Nov 2 09:35:04 2007 From: ben at eavey.com (Benjamin Eavey) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:35:04 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711020621m71f2b649s5566584247431ef4@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> <472B1F9C.5060806@eavey.com> <81e08d920711020621m71f2b649s5566584247431ef4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <472B2788.6080603@eavey.com> Justin Denick wrote: > > > On 11/2/07, *Benjamin Eavey* > wrote: > > Justin Denick wrote: > > I used to use vim exclusively, but I like having the ability to > scroll, > > and I don't get that with vim. > > You don't? Weird... works for me. > > With a mouse or the keyboard? > > -Ben Both. I don't generally use the mouse, but I can. Just tried it to make sure I was remembering correctly. -Ben From justin.denick at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 09:50:26 2007 From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 09:50:26 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <472B2788.6080603@eavey.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> <472B1F9C.5060806@eavey.com> <81e08d920711020621m71f2b649s5566584247431ef4@mail.gmail.com> <472B2788.6080603@eavey.com> Message-ID: <81e08d920711020650r4a50756en8df6cdeae60786a9@mail.gmail.com> On 11/2/07, Benjamin Eavey wrote: > > Justin Denick wrote: > > > > > > On 11/2/07, *Benjamin Eavey* > > wrote: > > > > Justin Denick wrote: > > > I used to use vim exclusively, but I like having the ability to > > scroll, > > > and I don't get that with vim. > > > > You don't? Weird... works for me. > > > > With a mouse or the keyboard? > > > > -Ben > > > Both. I don't generally use the mouse, but I can. Just tried it to > make sure I was remembering correctly. Hmm, for the past 4 years I just thought that vim was anti-mouse. I guess, I have to turn something on. -Ben > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- In vino veritas. [In wine there is truth.] -- Pliny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/69782b60/attachment.htm From ben at eavey.com Fri Nov 2 09:59:19 2007 From: ben at eavey.com (Benjamin Eavey) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:59:19 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711020650r4a50756en8df6cdeae60786a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> <472B1F9C.5060806@eavey.com> <81e08d920711020621m71f2b649s5566584247431ef4@mail.gmail.com> <472B2788.6080603@eavey.com> <81e08d920711020650r4a50756en8df6cdeae60786a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <472B2D37.6040209@eavey.com> Justin Denick wrote: > > Hmm, for the past 4 years I just thought that vim was anti-mouse. I > guess, I have to turn something on. Try this in your vimrc: set mouse=a From justin.denick at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 10:03:44 2007 From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 10:03:44 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <472B2D37.6040209@eavey.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> <472B1F9C.5060806@eavey.com> <81e08d920711020621m71f2b649s5566584247431ef4@mail.gmail.com> <472B2788.6080603@eavey.com> <81e08d920711020650r4a50756en8df6cdeae60786a9@mail.gmail.com> <472B2D37.6040209@eavey.com> Message-ID: <81e08d920711020703v54351185h9ce81d04846f5b12@mail.gmail.com> On 11/2/07, Benjamin Eavey wrote: > > Justin Denick wrote: > > > > Hmm, for the past 4 years I just thought that vim was anti-mouse. I > > guess, I have to turn something on. > > Try this in your vimrc: set mouse=a Thanks after, reading your post, I poked around the :help and found that same command :-) What a gem! _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- In vino veritas. [In wine there is truth.] -- Pliny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/48d1bf1f/attachment.htm From topher at wcsg.org Fri Nov 2 10:13:26 2007 From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 10:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711020650r4a50756en8df6cdeae60786a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> <472B1F9C.5060806@eavey.com> <81e08d920711020621m71f2b649s5566584247431ef4@mail.gmail.com> <472B2788.6080603@eavey.com> <81e08d920711020650r4a50756en8df6cdeae60786a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Hmm, for the past 4 years I just thought that vim was anti-mouse. I > guess, I have to turn something on. There's vim, and then there's gvim, which is a GUI version. gvmi runs in windows as well. Topher Manager of Internet Services Cornerstone University Radio ------ "How long is a girl a child? She is a child, then one morning you wake up and she's a woman, and a dozen different people of whom you recognize none." -- Louis L'Amour, Bendigo Shafter From jtr at jrichards.org Fri Nov 2 10:10:59 2007 From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 10:10:59 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711020650r4a50756en8df6cdeae60786a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> <472B1F9C.5060806@eavey.com> <81e08d920711020621m71f2b649s5566584247431ef4@mail.gmail.com> <472B2788.6080603@eavey.com> <81e08d920711020650r4a50756en8df6cdeae60786a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071102141059.GA4756@jrichards.org> On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 09:50:26AM -0400, Justin Denick wrote: > On 11/2/07, Benjamin Eavey wrote: > > Justin Denick wrote: > > > On 11/2/07, *Benjamin Eavey* > > > wrote: > > > Justin Denick wrote: > > > > I used to use vim exclusively, but I like having the ability to > > > scroll, > > > > and I don't get that with vim. > > > > > > You don't? Weird... works for me. > > > > > > With a mouse or the keyboard? > > > > Both. I don't generally use the mouse, but I can. Just tried it to > > make sure I was remembering correctly. > > Hmm, for the past 4 years I just thought that vim was anti-mouse. I guess, I > have to turn something on. For the past ten years I thought it was the vim *user* that was anti-mouse. :-) Years ago when I was in the trucking maintenance industry, we hired a consultant to make some changes to our in-house Informix database. This guy had about ten different telnet sessions opened up and was editing two or three files in each session with vi (not vim; old SCO UNIX box). He was accessing the server from a Windows machine. I do not think he touched the mouse once. Literally. This guy knew more about vi than anyone I have ever seen. He was amazing. He was not writing a lot of 4GL code, but he was editing a *ton* of it. I don't think I know a quarter of the vi commands he knows and I have been using Linux & vim for over ten years. His hands never left the keyboard. -- john-thomas ------ Lots of people think they're charitable if they give away their old clothes and things they don't want. It isn't charity to give away things you want to get rid of and it isn't a sacrifice to do things you don't mind doing. Myrtle Reed, author (1874-1911) From matt.maxted at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 10:23:07 2007 From: matt.maxted at gmail.com (Matt Maxted) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 10:23:07 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: <472A9B5D.6070707@ameritech.net> References: <472A9B5D.6070707@ameritech.net> Message-ID: I recompiled from source after downloading the newest version of vmware server On 11/1/07, Raymond McLaughlin wrote: > > Matt Maxted wrote: > > I have upgraded a Lenovo Thinkpad x60s from Feisty to Gusty. Everything > > went well with the exception of vmware server and display settings. I > > had to recompile vmware to their latest release. > > Did you actually compile from source, or are you talking about > re-running vmware-config.pl ? > > Raymond McLaughlin > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/647cea89/attachment.htm From matt.maxted at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 10:23:07 2007 From: matt.maxted at gmail.com (Matt Maxted) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 10:23:07 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu 7.10 In-Reply-To: <472A9B5D.6070707@ameritech.net> References: <472A9B5D.6070707@ameritech.net> Message-ID: I recompiled from source after downloading the newest version of vmware server On 11/1/07, Raymond McLaughlin wrote: > > Matt Maxted wrote: > > I have upgraded a Lenovo Thinkpad x60s from Feisty to Gusty. Everything > > went well with the exception of vmware server and display settings. I > > had to recompile vmware to their latest release. > > Did you actually compile from source, or are you talking about > re-running vmware-config.pl ? > > Raymond McLaughlin > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/647cea89/attachment-0001.htm From bob.kline at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 11:02:16 2007 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 11:02:16 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: References: <472A9991.80404@ameritech.net> <20071102120646.GA2956@jrichards.org> <472B170C.6050901@kkmfg.com> Message-ID: On Nov 2, 2007 8:42 AM, Topher wrote: > Sorry Bob, I didn't mean to rain on your parade, I was just curious. :) > > Topher > Manager of Internet Services > Cornerstone University Radio > > No problem. -Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/5b208c8f/attachment.htm From thisboyiscrazy at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 11:29:50 2007 From: thisboyiscrazy at gmail.com (Joe Vanderstelt) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 11:29:50 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <20071102141059.GA4756@jrichards.org> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> <472B1F9C.5060806@eavey.com> <81e08d920711020621m71f2b649s5566584247431ef4@mail.gmail.com> <472B2788.6080603@eavey.com> <81e08d920711020650r4a50756en8df6cdeae60786a9@mail.gmail.com> <20071102141059.GA4756@jrichards.org> Message-ID: Vim and gVim on linux and windows. never actually tried emacs On 11/2/07, john-thomas richards wrote: > On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 09:50:26AM -0400, Justin Denick wrote: > > On 11/2/07, Benjamin Eavey wrote: > > > Justin Denick wrote: > > > > On 11/2/07, *Benjamin Eavey* > > > > wrote: > > > > Justin Denick wrote: > > > > > I used to use vim exclusively, but I like having the ability to > > > > scroll, > > > > > and I don't get that with vim. > > > > > > > > You don't? Weird... works for me. > > > > > > > > With a mouse or the keyboard? > > > > > > Both. I don't generally use the mouse, but I can. Just tried it to > > > make sure I was remembering correctly. > > > > Hmm, for the past 4 years I just thought that vim was anti-mouse. I guess, I > > have to turn something on. > > For the past ten years I thought it was the vim *user* that was anti-mouse. > :-) > > Years ago when I was in the trucking maintenance industry, we hired a > consultant to make some changes to our in-house Informix database. This guy > had about ten different telnet sessions opened up and was editing two or three > files in each session with vi (not vim; old SCO UNIX box). He was accessing > the server from a Windows machine. I do not think he touched the mouse once. > Literally. This guy knew more about vi than anyone I have ever seen. He was > amazing. He was not writing a lot of 4GL code, but he was editing a *ton* of > it. I don't think I know a quarter of the vi commands he knows and I have > been using Linux & vim for over ten years. His hands never left the keyboard. > -- > john-thomas > ------ > Lots of people think they're charitable if they give away their old clothes > and things they don't want. It isn't charity to give away things you want > to get rid of and it isn't a sacrifice to do things you don't mind doing. > Myrtle Reed, author (1874-1911) > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > From driveray at ameritech.net Fri Nov 2 11:41:19 2007 From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 11:41:19 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <472B451F.8000704@ameritech.net> Justin Denick wrote: > All this jazz about writing got me thinking about programming practice > and coding styles > > What about you? > How do you code? > What's your favorite editor. > I like Kate. Simple, fast, opens remote files, great syntax > highlighting, though I wish it would utilize the html tag completion > that we see in Quanta. > I've installed Eclipse, but found it to be more difficult than it was > worth, cause everything revolves around java. > I tried Bluefish, but I didn't like that one either. Too much overhead. > I used to use vim exclusively, but I like having the ability to scroll, > and I don't get that with vim. > > -- > In vino veritas. > [In wine there is truth.] > -- Pliny I like vim, but not vi, though I can use it. My favorite "simple" editor in joe. I used it for my first couple of years on the Linux learning curve. From jjfoerch at earthlink.net Fri Nov 2 12:20:47 2007 From: jjfoerch at earthlink.net (John J Foerch) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 12:20:47 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18219.20063.853717.864062@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Justin Denick writes: > All this jazz about writing got me thinking about programming practice and > coding styles > > What about you? > How do you code? > What's your favorite editor. Editors--a favorite topic! I use Emacs with Vi[m]-style key bindings. I consider Emacs to be, in general, for all practical purposes, the best program. Period. Yet I have never liked Emacs' default key bindings, so over the years I have tried many different bindings in Emacs. This year, for unrelated reasons, I decided to learn Vim. I really liked Vim's style of modal editing, because in command-mode, all the unmodified alphanumeric keys have useful functions bound to them, as opposed to always being "self-insert". I particularly love vim's `dot' command (.). Still, I don't see myself switching over to Vim, because Emacs is such an infinitely more useful program for all kinds of stuff other than text-editing. So I use the Emacs packages VIPER, Vimpulse, Viper-In-More-Modes, and many, many of my own customizations to create an editing environment that I call "best of three worlds"--emacs, vi, and vim. --John From topher at wcsg.org Fri Nov 2 12:51:26 2007 From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 12:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > What about you? > How do you code? > What's your favorite editor. I've been a vim guy for about 10 years. I used Pico before that. At work I code alone, with music going loudly most times. At home I code in the living room on my laptop, while my wife watches some sporting event or another. Topher Manager of Internet Services Cornerstone University Radio ------ "Seems to me a man has trouble enough in this world without borrowing more with careless words." -- Louis L'Amour, Mojave Crossing From fusion at darktech.org Fri Nov 2 13:41:18 2007 From: fusion at darktech.org (Alexander Grotewohl) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:41:18 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071102174118.GE21477@atlantis> I use FTE.. Kind of a remnant from when I used to use OS/2.. Surprisingly though, even though it's "The Folding Text Editor", I've never been much interested in folding in general.. It's a novelty imo.. And I just noticed I'm writing this email in FTE.. cheers :) -- Alexander Grotewohl http://cfbbs.net/ On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 12:51:26PM -0400, Topher wrote: > > What about you? > > How do you code? > > What's your favorite editor. > > I've been a vim guy for about 10 years. I used Pico before that. At work > I code alone, with music going loudly most times. > > At home I code in the living room on my laptop, while my wife watches some > sporting event or another. > > Topher > Manager of Internet Services > Cornerstone University Radio > > ------ > "Seems to me a man has trouble enough in this world without borrowing more > with careless words." > -- Louis L'Amour, Mojave Crossing > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug From flanderb at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 13:45:39 2007 From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:45:39 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Favorite Music: I like coding while listening to "Sigur Ros" or "Explosions in the sky". Favorite Editor: Java - Eclipse Scripting languages(Ruby, Perl, Python etc): Linux - jEdit, Kate, vim Windows - Crimson Editor, jEdit, Vim How do I code? Very poorly :) and not enough. I love it, but the job doesn't allow me to do much, and I am too busy at home right now. Favorite Place: The ratty old recliner in the living room with the laptop on my lap. On 11/2/07, Topher wrote: > > What about you? > > How do you code? > > What's your favorite editor. > > I've been a vim guy for about 10 years. I used Pico before that. At work > I code alone, with music going loudly most times. > > At home I code in the living room on my laptop, while my wife watches some > sporting event or another. > > Topher > Manager of Internet Services > Cornerstone University Radio > > ------ > "Seems to me a man has trouble enough in this world without borrowing more > with careless words." > -- Louis L'Amour, Mojave Crossing > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- Share and Enjoy Ben From jtr at jrichards.org Fri Nov 2 13:51:19 2007 From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:51:19 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071102175118.GB7457@jrichards.org> On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 12:51:26PM -0400, Topher wrote: > > What about you? > > How do you code? > > What's your favorite editor. > > I've been a vim guy for about 10 years. I used Pico before that. At work > I code alone, with music going loudly most times. It has never occurred to me before now, but I have never used a *nix text editor other than vi/vim. About fifteen years ago I cut my teeth on a SCO UNIX box using vi. In Linux it has always been vim. I tried pico briefly but it did not "feel" right, after having used vim so much. Having to use Outlook at work, I often look at my screen in confusion wondering why in the world my editor put ":x" in the middle of my email. > At home I code in the living room on my laptop, while my wife watches some > sporting event or another. Heh. That is funny. If I didn't know you, I would think you were lying about having a wife. Geek. ;-) -- john-thomas ------ It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. Voltaire (1694-1778) From timschmidt at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 13:59:34 2007 From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:59:34 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <20071102175118.GB7457@jrichards.org> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> <20071102175118.GB7457@jrichards.org> Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711021059nd51d7b2n80cbb2fce4764c4a@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 2, 2007 1:51 PM, john-thomas richards wrote: > Heh. That is funny. If I didn't know you, I would think you were lying > about having a wife. Geek. ;-) He is... the man you know (and presumably the woman) was hired via a craigslist ad. ;) --tim From mikemol at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 14:03:13 2007 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 14:03:13 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <20071102175118.GB7457@jrichards.org> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> <20071102175118.GB7457@jrichards.org> Message-ID: On 11/2/07, john-thomas richards wrote: > On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 12:51:26PM -0400, Topher wrote: > > > What about you? > > > How do you code? > > > What's your favorite editor. > > > > I've been a vim guy for about 10 years. I used Pico before that. At work > > I code alone, with music going loudly most times. > > Having to use Outlook at work, I often look at my screen in confusion wondering why in > the world my editor put ":x" in the middle of my email. I used to have that problem with GMail. So I set my signature as a reminder. :-) -- :wq From rlauzon at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 15:05:41 2007 From: rlauzon at gmail.com (Ron Lauzon) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:05:41 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/1/07, Bob Kline wrote: > It's something I started doing > with all my e-mails. Newspaper > columns are as narrow as they > are so people can read them > without moving their eyes. I thought that you were just using a VIC20 to surf the web. 8-) -- Ron Lauzon - rlauzon at acm dot org Homepage: http://7lauzon.home.comcast.net/ Weblog: http://ronsapartment.blogspot.com/ DNRC: Lord of All Things That Are Fattening "To be sure, conservative radio talk show hosts have a built-in audience unavailable to liberals: People driving cars to some sort of job." - Ann Coulter Microsoft Free since July 06, 2001 Running Mandrake Linux 2007 From bob.kline at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 15:19:13 2007 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:19:13 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey, ASCII browsers are fast! Useless, but fast... -Bob On Nov 2, 2007 3:05 PM, Ron Lauzon wrote: > On 11/1/07, Bob Kline wrote: > > It's something I started doing > > with all my e-mails. Newspaper > > columns are as narrow as they > > are so people can read them > > without moving their eyes. > > I thought that you were just using a VIC20 to surf the web. 8-) > > -- > Ron Lauzon - rlauzon at acm dot org > Homepage: http://7lauzon.home.comcast.net/ > Weblog: http://ronsapartment.blogspot.com/ > > DNRC: Lord of All Things That Are Fattening > > "To be sure, conservative radio talk show hosts have a built-in > audience unavailable to liberals: People driving cars to some > sort of job." - Ann Coulter > > Microsoft Free since July 06, 2001 > Running Mandrake Linux 2007 > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/a10eb6d3/attachment.htm From jtr at jrichards.org Fri Nov 2 15:24:44 2007 From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:24:44 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071102192444.GA8953@jrichards.org> On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 03:19:13PM -0400, Bob Kline wrote: > Hey, ASCII browsers are fast! > > Useless, but fast... Useless? Hey, now, I use elinks almost as often as I use Firefox. It even has tabbed browsing! [snip] -- john-thomas ------ In a perfect union the man and woman are like a strung bow. Who is to say whether the string bends the bow, or the bow tightens the string? Cyril Connolly, critic and editor (1903-1974) From bob.kline at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 15:36:37 2007 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:36:37 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: <20071102192444.GA8953@jrichards.org> References: <20071102192444.GA8953@jrichards.org> Message-ID: Just a little gasoline on the fire. :-) -Bob On Nov 2, 2007 3:24 PM, john-thomas richards wrote: > On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 03:19:13PM -0400, Bob Kline wrote: > > Hey, ASCII browsers are fast! > > > > Useless, but fast... > > Useless? Hey, now, I use elinks almost as often as I use Firefox. It > even > has tabbed browsing! > > [snip] > -- > john-thomas > ------ > In a perfect union the man and woman are like a strung bow. Who is to > say whether the string bends the bow, or the bow tightens the string? > Cyril Connolly, critic and editor (1903-1974) > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071102/72472291/attachment.htm From nicholas at iserv.net Fri Nov 2 15:46:39 2007 From: nicholas at iserv.net (Mike Nicholas / The Personal Connection) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:46:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: References: <20071102192444.GA8953@jrichards.org> Message-ID: <29202.66.202.195.43.1194032799.squirrel@webmail.iserv.net> At least we didn't debate top posting or bottom posting.... marshmellows anyone? Mike On Fri, November 2, 2007 3:36 pm, Bob Kline wrote: > Just a little gasoline on the fire. :-) > > -Bob > > > On Nov 2, 2007 3:24 PM, john-thomas richards wrote: > >> On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 03:19:13PM -0400, Bob Kline wrote: >> > Hey, ASCII browsers are fast! >> > >> > Useless, but fast... >> >> Useless? Hey, now, I use elinks almost as often as I use Firefox. It >> even >> has tabbed browsing! >> >> [snip] >> -- >> john-thomas >> ------ >> In a perfect union the man and woman are like a strung bow. Who is to >> say whether the string bends the bow, or the bow tightens the string? >> Cyril Connolly, critic and editor (1903-1974) >> _______________________________________________ >> grlug mailing list >> grlug at grlug.org >> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug >> > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug -- Mike Nicholas The Personal Connection Computer Consultants Kalamazoo, Michigan USA From mikemol at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 16:18:59 2007 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:18:59 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: <29202.66.202.195.43.1194032799.squirrel@webmail.iserv.net> References: <20071102192444.GA8953@jrichards.org> <29202.66.202.195.43.1194032799.squirrel@webmail.iserv.net> Message-ID: On 11/2/07, Mike Nicholas / The Personal Connection wrote: > At least we didn't debate top posting or bottom posting.... > > marshmellows anyone? > > Mike > > On Fri, November 2, 2007 3:36 pm, Bob Kline wrote: > > Just a little gasoline on the fire. :-) > > > > -Bob > > > > > > On Nov 2, 2007 3:24 PM, john-thomas richards wrote: > > > >> On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 03:19:13PM -0400, Bob Kline wrote: > >> > Hey, ASCII browsers are fast! > >> > > >> > Useless, but fast... > >> > >> Useless? Hey, now, I use elinks almost as often as I use Firefox. It > >> even > >> has tabbed browsing! > >> > >> [snip] > >> -- > >> john-thomas > >> ------ > >> In a perfect union the man and woman are like a strung bow. Who is to > >> say whether the string bends the bow, or the bow tightens the string? > >> Cyril Connolly, critic and editor (1903-1974) > >> _______________________________________________ > >> grlug mailing list > >> grlug at grlug.org > >> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > grlug mailing list > > grlug at grlug.org > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > -- > Mike Nicholas > The Personal Connection > Computer Consultants > Kalamazoo, Michigan USA I'll bring the chocolate bars. -- :wq From radiodurans at yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 22:08:50 2007 From: radiodurans at yahoo.com (John Harig) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <691582.69101.qm@web80411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ummm ... before you throw that gasoline on the fire . . . ill take it considering the price per barrel of oil. --- Michael Mol wrote: > On 11/2/07, Mike Nicholas / The Personal Connection > wrote: > > At least we didn't debate top posting or bottom > posting.... > > > > marshmellows anyone? > > > > Mike > > > > On Fri, November 2, 2007 3:36 pm, Bob Kline wrote: > > > Just a little gasoline on the fire. :-) > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > > > > On Nov 2, 2007 3:24 PM, john-thomas richards > wrote: > > > > > >> On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 03:19:13PM -0400, Bob > Kline wrote: > > >> > Hey, ASCII browsers are fast! > > >> > > > >> > Useless, but fast... > > >> > > >> Useless? Hey, now, I use elinks almost as > often as I use Firefox. It > > >> even > > >> has tabbed browsing! > > >> > > >> [snip] > > >> -- > > >> john-thomas > > >> ------ > > >> In a perfect union the man and woman are like a > strung bow. Who is to > > >> say whether the string bends the bow, or the > bow tightens the string? > > >> Cyril Connolly, critic and editor (1903-1974) > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> grlug mailing list > > >> grlug at grlug.org > > >> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > grlug mailing list > > > grlug at grlug.org > > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > > > > -- > > Mike Nicholas > > The Personal Connection > > Computer Consultants > > Kalamazoo, Michigan USA > > I'll bring the chocolate bars. > > -- > :wq > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > From investmgmt at s91195370.onlinehome.us Fri Nov 2 23:24:21 2007 From: investmgmt at s91195370.onlinehome.us (Brad Becker) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 20:24:21 -0700 Subject: [GRLUG] My Webradio Site Message-ID: <200711022024.21455.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us> I've set up a Webradio site using Icecast2 in linux. The server has 3 mpbs down/ 512k up DSL service. I'm pretty much clueless what kind of bandwidth it can handle with concurrent connections so I'm hoping you could connect and see if comes crashing down :) 11 songs, light jazz & pop, a bit of ambient, roughly 1 hours worth total. If you don't like the music just keep playing and mute, hopefully thru 1 cycle at least to increase the chance of mutliple connects from others. http://oberon.gotdns.com:8000/ Brad Becker CPU[AMD Socket A clocked at 2341.119 Mhz] Kernel[Linux 2.6.23.1-slh-smp-8 i686] Up[-56min-] Mem[-129.0/503.9MB-] HDD[-81GB(10%used)-] Procs[-81-] Client[Shell] From mikemol at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 23:56:36 2007 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:56:36 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] Just for Bob In-Reply-To: <691582.69101.qm@web80411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <691582.69101.qm@web80411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: S'alright. You're supposed to cook s'mores over the coals after the fire's burned down. On 11/2/07, John Harig wrote: > ummm ... before you throw that gasoline on the fire . > . . ill take it considering the price per barrel of > oil. > > --- Michael Mol wrote: > > > On 11/2/07, Mike Nicholas / The Personal Connection > > wrote: > > > At least we didn't debate top posting or bottom > > posting.... > > > > > > marshmellows anyone? > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > On Fri, November 2, 2007 3:36 pm, Bob Kline wrote: > > > > Just a little gasoline on the fire. :-) > > > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 2, 2007 3:24 PM, john-thomas richards > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 03:19:13PM -0400, Bob > > Kline wrote: > > > >> > Hey, ASCII browsers are fast! > > > >> > > > > >> > Useless, but fast... > > > >> > > > >> Useless? Hey, now, I use elinks almost as > > often as I use Firefox. It > > > >> even > > > >> has tabbed browsing! > > > >> > > > >> [snip] > > > >> -- > > > >> john-thomas > > > >> ------ > > > >> In a perfect union the man and woman are like a > > strung bow. Who is to > > > >> say whether the string bends the bow, or the > > bow tightens the string? > > > >> Cyril Connolly, critic and editor (1903-1974) > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> grlug mailing list > > > >> grlug at grlug.org > > > >> > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > grlug mailing list > > > > grlug at grlug.org > > > > > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Mike Nicholas > > > The Personal Connection > > > Computer Consultants > > > Kalamazoo, Michigan USA > > > > I'll bring the chocolate bars. > > > > -- > > :wq > > _______________________________________________ > > grlug mailing list > > grlug at grlug.org > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- :wq From mikemol at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 00:03:35 2007 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 00:03:35 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] My Webradio Site In-Reply-To: <200711022024.21455.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us> References: <200711022024.21455.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us> Message-ID: All Creative Commons songs, right? :-) (If not, look over at archive.org; There's some incredible free, legal stuff on there.) Got through the tail end of the first song, and it seems to have paused or died. Going to leave it running overnight, as my normal night net radio seems to be limiting connection duration, so it's gone by the time I get up. On 11/2/07, Brad Becker wrote: > I've set up a Webradio site using Icecast2 in linux. The server has 3 > mpbs down/ 512k up DSL service. I'm pretty much clueless what kind of > bandwidth it can handle with concurrent connections so I'm hoping you > could connect and see if comes crashing down :) > > 11 songs, light jazz & pop, a bit of ambient, roughly 1 hours worth > total. If you don't like the music just keep playing and mute, > hopefully thru 1 cycle at least to increase the chance of mutliple > connects from others. > > http://oberon.gotdns.com:8000/ > > Brad Becker > CPU[AMD Socket A clocked at 2341.119 Mhz] Kernel[Linux > 2.6.23.1-slh-smp-8 i686] Up[-56min-] Mem[-129.0/503.9MB-] > HDD[-81GB(10%used)-] Procs[-81-] Client[Shell] > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- :wq From bob.kline at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 00:23:54 2007 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 00:23:54 -0400 Subject: [GRLUG] My Webradio Site In-Reply-To: <200711022024.21455.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us> References: <200711022024.21455.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us> Message-ID: If you want to add some old time radio, try http://www.archive.org/details/oldtimeradio There are thousands of hours of programming, and it's free. -Bob On Nov 2, 2007 11:24 PM, Brad Becker wrote: > I've set up a Webradio site using Icecast2 in linux. The server has 3 > mpbs down/ 512k up DSL service. I'm pretty much clueless what kind of > bandwidth it can handle with concurrent connections so I'm hoping you > could connect and see if comes crashing down :) > > 11 songs, light jazz & pop, a bit of ambient, roughly 1 hours worth > total. If you don't like the music just keep playing and mute, > hopefully thru 1 cycle at least to increase the chance of mutliple > connects from others. > > http://oberon.gotdns.com:8000/ > > Brad Becker > CPU[AMD Socket A clocked at 2341.119 Mhz] Kernel[Linux > 2.6.23.1-slh-smp-8 i686] Up[-56min-] Mem[-129.0/503.9MB-] > HDD[-81GB(10%used)-] Procs[-81-] Client[Shell] > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071103/c0681e4b/attachment-0001.htm From bob.kline at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 17:22:02 2007 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 17:22:02 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] External drive transfer rates In-Reply-To: <81e08d920710220905s13d5ebc8wbdae35ddfbecb36e@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920710220905s13d5ebc8wbdae35ddfbecb36e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2007 11:05 AM, Justin Denick wrote: > > > > > Be sure to see what the DMA specs are too. > > hdparm -cuda /devx > > As you can see it makes a big differnece > > justin at da-boxx ~ $ sudo hdparm -t /dev/hda > > /dev/hda: > Timing buffered disk reads: 166 MB in 3.02 seconds = 54.92 MB/sec > justin at da-boxx ~ $ sudo hdparm -d0 /dev/hda > > /dev/hda: > setting using_dma to 0 (off) > using_dma = 0 (off) > justin at da-boxx ~ $ sudo hdparm -t /dev/hda > > /dev/hda: > Timing buffered disk reads: 18 MB in 3.26 seconds = 5.53 MB/sec > justin at da-boxx ~ $ sudo hdparm -d1 /dev/hda > > /dev/hda: > setting using_dma to 1 (on) > using_dma = 1 (on) > justin at da-boxx ~ $ sudo hdparm -t /dev/hda > > /dev/hda: > Timing buffered disk reads: 166 MB in 3.02 seconds = 54.88 MB/sec > justin at da-boxx ~ $ > > It's a kernel option > CONFIG_IDEDMA_AUTO=y > hdparm -cuda /dev/x only reports for a: "readahead = 256 (on) Running "hdparm -d1 /dev/x" result in "HDIO_SET_DEM failed: Invalid argument." The hdparm man page suggest that in rare cases one has to use the -X parameter. It also says this can cause real headaches. -Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071105/99fbe55e/attachment.htm From cmilkins at tds.net Mon Nov 5 15:18:52 2007 From: cmilkins at tds.net (Cameron) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:18:52 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help Message-ID: <001001c81fe9$1782aca0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Hi, I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way to filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use some help. I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a half dozen times for a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I can't get any of them to boot. I have tried some user forums and followed all kinds of advice to no avail. I have tried different disk burning programs, different speeds, bit torrent downloads, and the list goes on. Does anyone have a clean copy of a current release for a user-friendly Linux distribution that is easily understood by newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for getting a clean iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and want to change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. Regards, Cam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071105/51d0583a/attachment.htm From brousch at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 07:41:34 2007 From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 07:41:34 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: <001001c81fe9$1782aca0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> References: <001001c81fe9$1782aca0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Message-ID: I have run into similar problems in the last couple of years, and my friend actually had the same problem last week. Usually the disk images are OK, and swapping out the CD-ROM on the computer fixes the problem. I don't know whether to blame the drive manufacturers, the CDR manufacturers, or something in the Linux distros, but it is an annoying situation. So my advice is, try one of your already burned CDs, but use a different CD drive. On 11/5/07, Cameron wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way to > filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use some > help. I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a half dozen > times for a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I can't get any of > them to boot. I have tried some user forums and followed all kinds of > advice to no avail. I have tried different disk burning programs, different > speeds, bit torrent downloads, and the list goes on. Does anyone have a > clean copy of a current release for a user-friendly Linux distribution that > is easily understood by newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for > getting a clean iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and > want to change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. > > > > Regards, > > > > *Cam* > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071106/d6bf09b0/attachment-0001.htm From cmilkins at tds.net Tue Nov 6 08:39:10 2007 From: cmilkins at tds.net (Cameron) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:39:10 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001501c8207a$6aa004f0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Thanks, Ben. Cam Milkins National Real Estate Advisor Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company cameron.milkins at svn.com cmilkins at tds.net (616) 780-5634 -----Original Message----- From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of Ben Rousch Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 7:42 AM To: grlug at grlug.org Subject: Re: [GRLUG] newbie help I have run into similar problems in the last couple of years, and my friend actually had the same problem last week. Usually the disk images are OK, and swapping out the CD-ROM on the computer fixes the problem. I don't know whether to blame the drive manufacturers, the CDR manufacturers, or something in the Linux distros, but it is an annoying situation. So my advice is, try one of your already burned CDs, but use a different CD drive. On 11/5/07, Cameron wrote: Hi, I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way to filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use some help. I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a half dozen times for a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I can't get any of them to boot. I have tried some user forums and followed all kinds of advice to no avail. I have tried different disk burning programs, different speeds, bit torrent downloads, and the list goes on. Does anyone have a clean copy of a current release for a user-friendly Linux distribution that is easily understood by newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for getting a clean iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and want to change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. Regards, Cam _______________________________________________ grlug mailing list grlug at grlug.org http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071106/7b923736/attachment.htm From flanderb at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 08:52:07 2007 From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:52:07 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: <001501c8207a$6aa004f0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> References: <001501c8207a$6aa004f0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Message-ID: Cameron, I hope you really didn't think your e-mail was spam. It is my belief, and I hope that of the other members, that questions like this is one of the reasons for the group. To disseminate knowledge and help the newbies as well as having discourse on the pertinent technologies related to Linux as a whole.(You like that last sentence?) This goes out to anyone here, feel free to ask questions if "The Google" isn't forthcoming with mountains of information. Ben "I hope to make it to a meeting sometime" Flanders On Nov 6, 2007 8:39 AM, Cameron wrote: > > > > > > Thanks, Ben. > > > > > > Cam Milkins > > National Real Estate Advisor > > Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company > > cameron.milkins at svn.com > > cmilkins at tds.net > > (616) 780-5634 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of > Ben Rousch > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 7:42 AM > To: grlug at grlug.org > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] newbie help > > > > I have run into similar problems in the last couple of years, and my friend > actually had the same problem last week. Usually the disk images are OK, and > swapping out the CD-ROM on the computer fixes the problem. I don't know > whether to blame the drive manufacturers, the CDR manufacturers, or > something in the Linux distros, but it is an annoying situation. So my > advice is, try one of your already burned CDs, but use a different CD drive. > > On 11/5/07, Cameron wrote: > > > Hi, > > I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way to > filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use some help. > I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a half dozen times for > a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I can't get any of them to > boot. I have tried some user forums and followed all kinds of advice to no > avail. I have tried different disk burning programs, different speeds, bit > torrent downloads, and the list goes on. Does anyone have a clean copy of a > current release for a user-friendly Linux distribution that is easily > understood by newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for getting a > clean iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and want to > change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. > > > > Regards, > > > > Cam > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- Share and Enjoy Ben From cmilkins at tds.net Tue Nov 6 09:15:08 2007 From: cmilkins at tds.net (Cameron) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:15:08 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002001c8207f$713f2c00$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Thanks, Ben. Cam Milkins National Real Estate Advisor Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company cameron.milkins at svn.com cmilkins at tds.net (616) 780-5634 -----Original Message----- From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin Flanders Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 8:52 AM To: grlug at grlug.org Subject: Re: [GRLUG] newbie help Cameron, I hope you really didn't think your e-mail was spam. It is my belief, and I hope that of the other members, that questions like this is one of the reasons for the group. To disseminate knowledge and help the newbies as well as having discourse on the pertinent technologies related to Linux as a whole.(You like that last sentence?) This goes out to anyone here, feel free to ask questions if "The Google" isn't forthcoming with mountains of information. Ben "I hope to make it to a meeting sometime" Flanders On Nov 6, 2007 8:39 AM, Cameron wrote: > > > > > > Thanks, Ben. > > > > > > Cam Milkins > > National Real Estate Advisor > > Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company > > cameron.milkins at svn.com > > cmilkins at tds.net > > (616) 780-5634 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of > Ben Rousch > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 7:42 AM > To: grlug at grlug.org > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] newbie help > > > > I have run into similar problems in the last couple of years, and my friend > actually had the same problem last week. Usually the disk images are OK, and > swapping out the CD-ROM on the computer fixes the problem. I don't know > whether to blame the drive manufacturers, the CDR manufacturers, or > something in the Linux distros, but it is an annoying situation. So my > advice is, try one of your already burned CDs, but use a different CD drive. > > On 11/5/07, Cameron wrote: > > > Hi, > > I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way to > filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use some help. > I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a half dozen times for > a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I can't get any of them to > boot. I have tried some user forums and followed all kinds of advice to no > avail. I have tried different disk burning programs, different speeds, bit > torrent downloads, and the list goes on. Does anyone have a clean copy of a > current release for a user-friendly Linux distribution that is easily > understood by newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for getting a > clean iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and want to > change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. > > > > Regards, > > > > Cam > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- Share and Enjoy Ben _______________________________________________ grlug mailing list grlug at grlug.org http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug From rick.vargo at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 09:29:21 2007 From: rick.vargo at gmail.com (Rick Vargo) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 09:29:21 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: <001001c81fe9$1782aca0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> References: <001001c81fe9$1782aca0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Message-ID: <47307A41.6090204@gmail.com> Cameron, Can this computer see everything that is on the CD your burned after it is booted into the old OS on the machine you are trying to install to? Frequently your issue is due to a format that your CD drive doesn't understand or media that is not rated for the speed of your drive. For example, A couple of year old CD burner may not be able to use a 700 mb CD-R/CD-RW format but can read a 650 mb format just fine (Unfortunately most distros require a 700 mb disc). Also check the speeds that your media supports on the label and compare it to you drive and verify that your media is compatible with your burner. Hopefully, this will help you out. Rick Cameron wrote: > > Hi, > > I?m not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn?t see any way > to filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use > some help. I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a > half dozen times for a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I > can?t get any of them to boot. I have tried some user forums and > followed all kinds of advice to no avail. I have tried different disk > burning programs, different speeds, bit torrent downloads, and the > list goes on. Does anyone have a clean copy of a current release for > a user-friendly Linux distribution that is easily understood by > newbies. Or, does anyone have a ?silver bullet? for getting a clean > iso image disk for installation. I?m sick of Windows and want to > change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. > > > > Regards, > > > > */Cam/* > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug From mikemol at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 10:42:56 2007 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:42:56 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: <001001c81fe9$1782aca0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> References: <001001c81fe9$1782aca0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Message-ID: What are you using to burn the ISO images? Are you using the software's "Burn image" feature, or are you adding the ISO to the file list? On 11/5/07, Cameron wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way to > filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use some help. > I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a half dozen times > for a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I can't get any of them to > boot. I have tried some user forums and followed all kinds of advice to no > avail. I have tried different disk burning programs, different speeds, bit > torrent downloads, and the list goes on. Does anyone have a clean copy of a > current release for a user-friendly Linux distribution that is easily > understood by newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for getting a > clean iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and want to > change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. > > > > Regards, > > > > Cam > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- :wq From munroej at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 11:59:43 2007 From: munroej at gmail.com (Jesse Munroe) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:59:43 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: References: <001001c81fe9$1782aca0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Message-ID: <74d820590711060859y64b2db2byfa22c6b520f6119e@mail.gmail.com> Is it possible that a real newbie fix is in order here? Just checking, are your boot drives in the new linux machine set to boot from CD ROM before your Hard Disk? On 11/6/07, Michael Mol wrote: > > What are you using to burn the ISO images? Are you using the > software's "Burn image" feature, or are you adding the ISO to the file > list? > > On 11/5/07, Cameron wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way to > > filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use some > help. > > I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a half dozen > times > > for a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I can't get any of > them to > > boot. I have tried some user forums and followed all kinds of advice to > no > > avail. I have tried different disk burning programs, different speeds, > bit > > torrent downloads, and the list goes on. Does anyone have a clean copy > of a > > current release for a user-friendly Linux distribution that is easily > > understood by newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for > getting a > > clean iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and want to > > change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Cam > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > grlug mailing list > > grlug at grlug.org > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > > > -- > :wq > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071106/7b8cc914/attachment-0001.htm From cmilkins at tds.net Tue Nov 6 13:24:46 2007 From: cmilkins at tds.net (Cameron) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:24:46 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c820a2$513d9400$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Using the "burn iso image" of a software called Burn4Free that was recommended in Ubuntu Forum in one of the threads. Thanks for your reply, Cam Milkins National Real Estate Advisor Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company cameron.milkins at svn.com cmilkins at tds.net (616) 780-5634 -----Original Message----- From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of Michael Mol Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 10:43 AM To: grlug at grlug.org Subject: Re: [GRLUG] newbie help What are you using to burn the ISO images? Are you using the software's "Burn image" feature, or are you adding the ISO to the file list? On 11/5/07, Cameron wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way to > filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use some help. > I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a half dozen times > for a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I can't get any of them to > boot. I have tried some user forums and followed all kinds of advice to no > avail. I have tried different disk burning programs, different speeds, bit > torrent downloads, and the list goes on. Does anyone have a clean copy of a > current release for a user-friendly Linux distribution that is easily > understood by newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for getting a > clean iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and want to > change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. > > > > Regards, > > > > Cam > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- :wq _______________________________________________ grlug mailing list grlug at grlug.org http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug From cmilkins at tds.net Tue Nov 6 13:24:46 2007 From: cmilkins at tds.net (Cameron) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:24:46 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: <74d820590711060859y64b2db2byfa22c6b520f6119e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000101c820a2$56d416f0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Jesse, I believe I have set the boot drives to boot from the CD Rom. I have listed CD Rom as the first boot source. Also, I have been using the "burn iso image" icon in my burn program (third recommended burn program that I have downloaded). I made every attempt to review the threads at the Ubuntu Forum before tracking down a local group. Thanks for your reply. Regards, Cam Milkins National Real Estate Advisor Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company cameron.milkins at svn.com cmilkins at tds.net (616) 780-5634 -----Original Message----- From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of Jesse Munroe Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 12:00 PM To: grlug at grlug.org Subject: Re: [GRLUG] newbie help Is it possible that a real newbie fix is in order here? Just checking, are your boot drives in the new linux machine set to boot from CD ROM before your Hard Disk? On 11/6/07, Michael Mol wrote: What are you using to burn the ISO images? Are you using the software's "Burn image" feature, or are you adding the ISO to the file list? On 11/5/07, Cameron < cmilkins at tds.net > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way to > filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use some help. > I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a half dozen times > for a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I can't get any of them to > boot. I have tried some user forums and followed all kinds of advice to no > avail. I have tried different disk burning programs, different speeds, bit > torrent downloads, and the list goes on. Does anyone have a clean copy of a > current release for a user-friendly Linux distribution that is easily > understood by newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for getting a > clean iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and want to > change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. > > > > Regards, > > > > Cam > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- :wq _______________________________________________ grlug mailing list grlug at grlug.org http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071106/bd39d7a7/attachment-0001.htm From cmilkins at tds.net Tue Nov 6 13:31:15 2007 From: cmilkins at tds.net (Cameron) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:31:15 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: <47307A41.6090204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601c820a3$38a318b0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Rick, I put the disk into the computer. I opened "my computer" in Windows XP. The CD Rom drive showed as having Ubuntu in it. I opened the disk with explorer. I believe that all the files that should be on the installation disk were listed on the CD. So, to make a short story long, yes the current OS recognizes the disk. It does seem to be slow, however. Thanks for replying. Any wisdom? Regards, Cam Milkins National Real Estate Advisor Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company cameron.milkins at svn.com cmilkins at tds.net (616) 780-5634 -----Original Message----- From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of Rick Vargo Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:29 AM To: grlug at grlug.org Subject: Re: [GRLUG] newbie help Cameron, Can this computer see everything that is on the CD your burned after it is booted into the old OS on the machine you are trying to install to? Frequently your issue is due to a format that your CD drive doesn't understand or media that is not rated for the speed of your drive. For example, A couple of year old CD burner may not be able to use a 700 mb CD-R/CD-RW format but can read a 650 mb format just fine (Unfortunately most distros require a 700 mb disc). Also check the speeds that your media supports on the label and compare it to you drive and verify that your media is compatible with your burner. Hopefully, this will help you out. Rick Cameron wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way > to filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use > some help. I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a > half dozen times for a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I > can't get any of them to boot. I have tried some user forums and > followed all kinds of advice to no avail. I have tried different disk > burning programs, different speeds, bit torrent downloads, and the > list goes on. Does anyone have a clean copy of a current release for > a user-friendly Linux distribution that is easily understood by > newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for getting a clean > iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and want to > change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. > > > > Regards, > > > > */Cam/* > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug _______________________________________________ grlug mailing list grlug at grlug.org http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug From mikemol at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 15:07:07 2007 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 15:07:07 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: <000001c820a2$513d9400$0d02a8c0@Laptop> References: <000001c820a2$513d9400$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Message-ID: Sorry, just part of the script, y'know. :-) Do you have any known-good bootable CDs, such as a Windows install disc? On 11/6/07, Cameron wrote: > Using the "burn iso image" of a software called Burn4Free that was > recommended in Ubuntu Forum in one of the threads. > > Thanks for your reply, > > Cam Milkins > National Real Estate Advisor > Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company > cameron.milkins at svn.com > cmilkins at tds.net > (616) 780-5634 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of > Michael Mol > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 10:43 AM > To: grlug at grlug.org > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] newbie help > > What are you using to burn the ISO images? Are you using the > software's "Burn image" feature, or are you adding the ISO to the file > list? > > On 11/5/07, Cameron wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way to > > filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use some > help. > > I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a half dozen times > > for a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I can't get any of them > to > > boot. I have tried some user forums and followed all kinds of advice to > no > > avail. I have tried different disk burning programs, different speeds, > bit > > torrent downloads, and the list goes on. Does anyone have a clean copy of > a > > current release for a user-friendly Linux distribution that is easily > > understood by newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for getting > a > > clean iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and want to > > change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Cam > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > grlug mailing list > > grlug at grlug.org > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > > > -- > :wq > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- :wq From justin.denick at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 15:30:43 2007 From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 15:30:43 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] External drive transfer rates In-Reply-To: References: <81e08d920710220905s13d5ebc8wbdae35ddfbecb36e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <81e08d920711061230j64f9483cq16c0564eb0a76943@mail.gmail.com> On 11/5/07, Bob Kline wrote: > > > > On Oct 22, 2007 11:05 AM, Justin Denick wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Be sure to see what the DMA specs are too. > > > > hdparm -cuda /devx > > > > As you can see it makes a big differnece > > > > justin at da-boxx ~ $ sudo hdparm -t /dev/hda > > > > /dev/hda: > > Timing buffered disk reads: 166 MB in 3.02 seconds = 54.92 MB/sec > > justin at da-boxx ~ $ sudo hdparm -d0 /dev/hda > > > > /dev/hda: > > setting using_dma to 0 (off) > > using_dma = 0 (off) > > justin at da-boxx ~ $ sudo hdparm -t /dev/hda > > > > /dev/hda: > > Timing buffered disk reads: 18 MB in 3.26 seconds = 5.53 MB/sec > > justin at da-boxx ~ $ sudo hdparm -d1 /dev/hda > > > > /dev/hda: > > setting using_dma to 1 (on) > > using_dma = 1 (on) > > justin at da-boxx ~ $ sudo hdparm -t /dev/hda > > > > /dev/hda: > > Timing buffered disk reads: 166 MB in 3.02 seconds = 54.88 MB/sec > > justin at da-boxx ~ $ > > > > It's a kernel option > > CONFIG_IDEDMA_AUTO=y > > > > > > > hdparm -cuda /dev/x > I forgot about one thing Bob. hdparm only works for IDE drives, since your drive is interfaced via USB it must be /dev/s-something right? if that it the case than DMA shouldn't be needed at all. As the purpose of DMA is to free up the processor maybe you should watch the Load Avg when copying a file to see if it's abnormally high. only reports for a: "readahead = 256 (on) > > Running "hdparm -d1 /dev/x" > result in "HDIO_SET_DEM failed: Invalid argument." > > The hdparm man page suggest that > in rare cases one has to use the -X > parameter. It also says this can cause > real headaches. > > -Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- In vino veritas. [In wine there is truth.] -- Pliny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071106/1b5e508a/attachment-0001.htm From rick.vargo at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 15:35:12 2007 From: rick.vargo at gmail.com (Rick Vargo) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:35:12 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: <000601c820a3$38a318b0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> References: <000601c820a3$38a318b0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Message-ID: <4730D000.1020103@gmail.com> I guess we need to narrow it down further. Are you getting the Linux boot loader at all when you attempt to boot from CD? Rick Cameron wrote: > Rick, > I put the disk into the computer. I opened "my computer" in Windows XP. > The CD Rom drive showed as having Ubuntu in it. I opened the disk with > explorer. I believe that all the files that should be on the installation > disk were listed on the CD. So, to make a short story long, yes the current > OS recognizes the disk. It does seem to be slow, however. Thanks for > replying. Any wisdom? > > Regards, > > Cam Milkins > National Real Estate Advisor > Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company > cameron.milkins at svn.com > cmilkins at tds.net > (616) 780-5634 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of > Rick Vargo > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:29 AM > To: grlug at grlug.org > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] newbie help > > Cameron, > > Can this computer see everything that is on the CD your burned after it > is booted into the old OS on the machine you are trying to install to? > Frequently your issue is due to a format that your CD drive doesn't > understand or media that is not rated for the speed of your drive. For > example, A couple of year old CD burner may not be able to use a 700 mb > CD-R/CD-RW format but can read a 650 mb format just fine (Unfortunately > most distros require a 700 mb disc). Also check the speeds that your > media supports on the label and compare it to you drive and verify that > your media is compatible with your burner. Hopefully, this will help > you out. > > Rick > > > Cameron wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way >> to filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use >> some help. I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a >> half dozen times for a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I >> can't get any of them to boot. I have tried some user forums and >> followed all kinds of advice to no avail. I have tried different disk >> burning programs, different speeds, bit torrent downloads, and the >> list goes on. Does anyone have a clean copy of a current release for >> a user-friendly Linux distribution that is easily understood by >> newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for getting a clean >> iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and want to >> change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> */Cam/* >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> grlug mailing list >> grlug at grlug.org >> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug >> > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > From bob.kline at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 16:00:32 2007 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:00:32 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] External drive transfer rates In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711061230j64f9483cq16c0564eb0a76943@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920710220905s13d5ebc8wbdae35ddfbecb36e@mail.gmail.com> <81e08d920711061230j64f9483cq16c0564eb0a76943@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Both the internal drive and the one hanging off the USB 2 cable are IDE. When I run the backup, the machine is doing little else, so I'd guess the CPU is not particularly loaded. I'm a little puzzled as to why the hdparm "d" parameter does not function, but the write says hdparm does not work with all chip sets. Well, for now the backups work. I just have to wait. The transfer rate is the 8 Mbps I mentioned. Yet on another USB 2 port I can move data between two machines over a wireless link at 45 to 50 Mbps. So I think there is a mystery here yet. I'd like to see at least that when backing up to an external drive on a USB 2 port. Someday... -Bob > > hdparm -cuda /dev/x > > > > I forgot about one thing Bob. > hdparm only works for IDE drives, since your drive is interfaced via USB > it must be /dev/s-something right? > > if that it the case than DMA shouldn't be needed at all. > > As the purpose of DMA is to free up the processor maybe you should watch > the Load Avg when copying a file to see if it's > abnormally high. > > > only reports for a: "readahead = 256 (on) > > > > Running "hdparm -d1 /dev/x" > > result in "HDIO_SET_DEM failed: Invalid argument." > > > > The hdparm man page suggest that > > in rare cases one has to use the -X > > parameter. It also says this can cause > > real headaches. > > > > -Bob > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071106/b76950b0/attachment.htm From bob.kline at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 16:28:55 2007 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:28:55 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: References: <001001c81fe9$1782aca0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Message-ID: The the alignment on the drives does go out, albeit uncommonly. Given the cost, just replacing the unit does make most sense. It's not worth the hassles to keep them around, and that can include losing inter unit operability. Things made on the misaligned drive will play on it, but the overall consequences are clear. -Bob On Nov 6, 2007 7:41 AM, Ben Rousch wrote: > I have run into similar problems in the last couple of years, and my > friend actually had the same problem last week. Usually the disk images are > OK, and swapping out the CD-ROM on the computer fixes the problem. I don't > know whether to blame the drive manufacturers, the CDR manufacturers, or > something in the Linux distros, but it is an annoying situation. So my > advice is, try one of your already burned CDs, but use a different CD drive. > > > On 11/5/07, Cameron wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way to > > filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use some > > help. I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a half dozen > > times for a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I can't get any of > > them to boot. I have tried some user forums and followed all kinds of > > advice to no avail. I have tried different disk burning programs, different > > speeds, bit torrent downloads, and the list goes on. Does anyone have a > > clean copy of a current release for a user-friendly Linux distribution that > > is easily understood by newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for > > getting a clean iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and > > want to change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > *Cam* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > grlug mailing list > > grlug at grlug.org > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071106/97fa95d6/attachment-0001.htm From justin.denick at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 16:35:53 2007 From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:35:53 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] External drive transfer rates In-Reply-To: References: <81e08d920710220905s13d5ebc8wbdae35ddfbecb36e@mail.gmail.com> <81e08d920711061230j64f9483cq16c0564eb0a76943@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <81e08d920711061335p7d6125b8wcdf38653390e6e59@mail.gmail.com> On 11/6/07, Bob Kline wrote: > > Both the internal drive and the > one hanging off the USB 2 cable > are IDE. > > When I run the backup, the > machine is doing little else, so I'd > guess the CPU is not particularly > loaded. > > I'm a little puzzled as to why the > hdparm "d" parameter does not > function, but the write says hdparm > does not work with all chip sets. I tried setting DMA on one of my IDE drives connected via usb and I got the same error message. The kernel doesn't see it as a PATA drive but rather SATA. Well, for now the backups work. > I just have to wait. The transfer > rate is the 8 Mbps I mentioned. Yet > on another USB 2 port I can move > data between two machines over > a wireless link at 45 to 50 Mbps. > > So I think there is a mystery here > yet. I'd like to see at least that when > backing up to an external drive on > a USB 2 port. > > Someday... > > -Bob > > > > > hdparm -cuda /dev/x > > > > > > > I forgot about one thing Bob. > > hdparm only works for IDE drives, since your drive is interfaced via USB > > it must be /dev/s-something right? > > > > if that it the case than DMA shouldn't be needed at all. > > > > As the purpose of DMA is to free up the processor maybe you should watch > > the Load Avg when copying a file to see if it's > > abnormally high. > > > > > > only reports for a: "readahead = 256 (on) > > > > > > Running "hdparm -d1 /dev/x" > > > result in "HDIO_SET_DEM failed: Invalid argument." > > > > > > The hdparm man page suggest that > > > in rare cases one has to use the -X > > > parameter. It also says this can cause > > > real headaches. > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- In vino veritas. [In wine there is truth.] -- Pliny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071106/ff126ff4/attachment.htm From bob.kline at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 16:57:21 2007 From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:57:21 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] External drive transfer rates In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711061335p7d6125b8wcdf38653390e6e59@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920710220905s13d5ebc8wbdae35ddfbecb36e@mail.gmail.com> <81e08d920711061230j64f9483cq16c0564eb0a76943@mail.gmail.com> <81e08d920711061335p7d6125b8wcdf38653390e6e59@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 6, 2007 4:35 PM, Justin Denick wrote: > > > On 11/6/07, Bob Kline wrote: > > > > Both the internal drive and the > > one hanging off the USB 2 cable > > are IDE. > > > > When I run the backup, the > > machine is doing little else, so I'd > > guess the CPU is not particularly > > loaded. > > > > I'm a little puzzled as to why the > > hdparm "d" parameter does not > > function, but the write says hdparm > > does not work with all chip sets. > > > I tried setting DMA on one of my IDE drives connected via usb > and I got the same error message. > The kernel doesn't see it as a PATA drive but rather SATA. > As I mentioned of the options c, u, d, and a, hdparm only reports anything for a. Either there are a lot of unsupported chip sets out there, as the man page writeup suggests, or hdparm needs work. Anyway, for now I'll just set my backups to run overnight and consider the rest of it an unresolved problem for now. I gather not too many people are doing what I'm doing here - using a drive at the end of a USB 2 port. I wonder whether FireWire works any better? -Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071106/feeb1fa9/attachment.htm From mikemol at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 17:40:18 2007 From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:40:18 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] External drive transfer rates In-Reply-To: References: <81e08d920710220905s13d5ebc8wbdae35ddfbecb36e@mail.gmail.com> <81e08d920711061230j64f9483cq16c0564eb0a76943@mail.gmail.com> <81e08d920711061335p7d6125b8wcdf38653390e6e59@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I saw this tool mentioned on KernelTrap a week or so ago. It's like hdparm, but for SCSI devices (Including the SCSI generic layer): http://sg.torque.net/sg/sdparm.html On 11/6/07, Bob Kline wrote: > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007 4:35 PM, Justin Denick wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/6/07, Bob Kline wrote: > > > Both the internal drive and the > > > one hanging off the USB 2 cable > > > are IDE. > > > > > > When I run the backup, the > > > machine is doing little else, so I'd > > > guess the CPU is not particularly > > > loaded. > > > > > > I'm a little puzzled as to why the > > > hdparm "d" parameter does not > > > function, but the write says hdparm > > > does not work with all chip sets. > > > > > > I tried setting DMA on one of my IDE drives connected via usb > and I got the same error message. > The kernel doesn't see it as a PATA drive but rather SATA. > > > > As I mentioned of the options c, u, d, and a, > hdparm only reports anything for a. Either > there are a lot of unsupported chip sets out > there, as the man page writeup suggests, or > hdparm needs work. > > Anyway, for now I'll just set my backups > to run overnight and consider the rest of it > an unresolved problem for now. I gather > not too many people are doing what I'm > doing here - using a drive at the end of a > USB 2 port. > > I wonder whether FireWire works any better? > > > -Bob > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > -- :wq From dave at brondsema.net Tue Nov 6 23:01:02 2007 From: dave at brondsema.net (Dave Brondsema) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 23:01:02 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] Editors In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4731387E.5040203@brondsema.net> SciTE (http://scintilla.org/SciTE.html) in Windows and Linux for nearly everything.. its simple, fast, and has syntax highlighting for many languages. For bigger PHP or Java projects (or files I'm working a lot on) I use Eclipse. It does PHP pretty well (e.g. inline content assist) with the right extensions. Justin Denick wrote: > All this jazz about writing got me thinking about programming practice > and coding styles > > What about you? > How do you code? > What's your favorite editor. > I like Kate. Simple, fast, opens remote files, great syntax > highlighting, though I wish it would utilize the html tag completion > that we see in Quanta. > I've installed Eclipse, but found it to be more difficult than it was > worth, cause everything revolves around java. > I tried Bluefish, but I didn't like that one either. Too much overhead. > I used to use vim exclusively, but I like having the ability to scroll, > and I don't get that with vim. > > -- > In vino veritas. > [In wine there is truth.] > -- Pliny > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug -- Dave Brondsema : dave at brondsema.net http://www.brondsema.net : personal http://www.splike.com : programming <>< -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 890 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071106/05f4dbb9/attachment.pgp From driveray at ameritech.net Wed Nov 7 03:54:06 2007 From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 03:54:06 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: <000601c820a3$38a318b0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> References: <000601c820a3$38a318b0$0d02a8c0@Laptop> Message-ID: <47317D2E.2000507@ameritech.net> Cameron wrote: > Rick, > I put the disk into the computer. I opened "my computer" in Windows XP. > The CD Rom drive showed as having Ubuntu in it. Please forgive if this is insultingly obvious, but, for the record, you are not at this point seeing a single big file on the CD, with the extension .iso. Right? > I opened the disk with > explorer. I believe that all the files that should be on the installation > disk were listed on the CD. So, to make a short story long, yes the current > OS recognizes the disk. It does seem to be slow, however. Thanks for > replying. Any wisdom? > > Regards, > > Cam Milkins > National Real Estate Advisor > Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company > cameron.milkins at svn.com > cmilkins at tds.net > (616) 780-5634 From cmilkins at tds.net Wed Nov 7 06:44:13 2007 From: cmilkins at tds.net (Cameron) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 06:44:13 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: <47317D2E.2000507@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <003101c82133$88385120$0500a8c0@Laptop> No. All the files are there, I believe. Cam Milkins National Real Estate Advisor Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company cameron.milkins at svn.com cmilkins at tds.net (616) 780-5634 -----Original Message----- From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of Raymond McLaughlin Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 3:54 AM To: grlug at grlug.org Subject: Re: [GRLUG] newbie help Cameron wrote: > Rick, > I put the disk into the computer. I opened "my computer" in Windows XP. > The CD Rom drive showed as having Ubuntu in it. Please forgive if this is insultingly obvious, but, for the record, you are not at this point seeing a single big file on the CD, with the extension .iso. Right? > I opened the disk with > explorer. I believe that all the files that should be on the installation > disk were listed on the CD. So, to make a short story long, yes the current > OS recognizes the disk. It does seem to be slow, however. Thanks for > replying. Any wisdom? > > Regards, > > Cam Milkins > National Real Estate Advisor > Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company > cameron.milkins at svn.com > cmilkins at tds.net > (616) 780-5634 _______________________________________________ grlug mailing list grlug at grlug.org http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug From cmilkins at tds.net Wed Nov 7 06:44:13 2007 From: cmilkins at tds.net (Cameron) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 06:44:13 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] newbie help In-Reply-To: <4730D000.1020103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003201c82133$889eb410$0500a8c0@Laptop> No. The boot stops at the error screen that I described. The only other information seems to be some kind of copyright statement that precedes the error message. Cam Milkins National Real Estate Advisor Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company cameron.milkins at svn.com cmilkins at tds.net (616) 780-5634 -----Original Message----- From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of Rick Vargo Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 3:35 PM To: grlug at grlug.org Subject: Re: [GRLUG] newbie help I guess we need to narrow it down further. Are you getting the Linux boot loader at all when you attempt to boot from CD? Rick Cameron wrote: > Rick, > I put the disk into the computer. I opened "my computer" in Windows XP. > The CD Rom drive showed as having Ubuntu in it. I opened the disk with > explorer. I believe that all the files that should be on the installation > disk were listed on the CD. So, to make a short story long, yes the current > OS recognizes the disk. It does seem to be slow, however. Thanks for > replying. Any wisdom? > > Regards, > > Cam Milkins > National Real Estate Advisor > Sperry Van Ness/Silveri Company > cameron.milkins at svn.com > cmilkins at tds.net > (616) 780-5634 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf Of > Rick Vargo > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:29 AM > To: grlug at grlug.org > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] newbie help > > Cameron, > > Can this computer see everything that is on the CD your burned after it > is booted into the old OS on the machine you are trying to install to? > Frequently your issue is due to a format that your CD drive doesn't > understand or media that is not rated for the speed of your drive. For > example, A couple of year old CD burner may not be able to use a 700 mb > CD-R/CD-RW format but can read a 650 mb format just fine (Unfortunately > most distros require a 700 mb disc). Also check the speeds that your > media supports on the label and compare it to you drive and verify that > your media is compatible with your burner. Hopefully, this will help > you out. > > Rick > > > Cameron wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm not trying to create rookie spam here, but I couldn't see any way >> to filter this email to the appropriate parties. I could really use >> some help. I have tried to download and burn iso images at least a >> half dozen times for a few distros of Linux. No matter what I do, I >> can't get any of them to boot. I have tried some user forums and >> followed all kinds of advice to no avail. I have tried different disk >> burning programs, different speeds, bit torrent downloads, and the >> list goes on. Does anyone have a clean copy of a current release for >> a user-friendly Linux distribution that is easily understood by >> newbies. Or, does anyone have a "silver bullet" for getting a clean >> iso image disk for installation. I'm sick of Windows and want to >> change, but currently frustrated by obtaining Linux. Please help. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> */Cam/* >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> grlug mailing list >> grlug at grlug.org >> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug >> > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > > _______________________________________________ > grlug mailing list > grlug at grlug.org > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug > _______________________________________________ grlug mailing list grlug at grlug.org http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug From flanderb at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 07:22:41 2007 From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 07:22:41 -0500 Subject: [GRLUG] Wiki Message-ID: Check out this page http://wiki.grlug.org/index.php?title=Help:Editing I have added some stuff and one addition is a wierd 
 and list
issue.  Is there anything I am doing wrong, or is this just how the
wiki works?

-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From mikemol at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 09:47:49 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:47:49 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Wiki
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

Whoa, the wiki is world-writable now?  When did that happen?

I'll admit, it's been a while (probably a couple years) since I
visited the wiki.  I remember asking for an edit-capable account, and
being asked why I needed one.

On 11/7/07, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:
> Check out this page http://wiki.grlug.org/index.php?title=Help:Editing
> I have added some stuff and one addition is a wierd 
 and list
> issue.  Is there anything I am doing wrong, or is this just how the
> wiki works?
>
> --
> Share and Enjoy
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>


-- 
:wq

From flanderb at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 10:00:23 2007
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:00:23 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Wiki
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
Message-ID: 

I needed to create an account, but yea.  I am using it for some linux
documentation for myself and I thought that would be the best place
for it.

On Nov 7, 2007 9:47 AM, Michael Mol  wrote:
> Whoa, the wiki is world-writable now?  When did that happen?
>
> I'll admit, it's been a while (probably a couple years) since I
> visited the wiki.  I remember asking for an edit-capable account, and
> being asked why I needed one.
>
>
> On 11/7/07, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:
> > Check out this page http://wiki.grlug.org/index.php?title=Help:Editing
> > I have added some stuff and one addition is a wierd 
 and list
> > issue.  Is there anything I am doing wrong, or is this just how the
> > wiki works?
> >
> > --
> > Share and Enjoy
> > Ben
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> --
> :wq
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From mikemol at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 21:13:39 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 21:13:39 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Wiki
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
	
Message-ID: 

Cool.

So long as there's active contribution, I'll add the GRLUG Wiki RSS
feed to my Google Reader.

For those that didn't know such a thing existed, here's the URL:
http://wiki.grlug.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&feed=rss

For those who prefer Atom:
http://wiki.grlug.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&feed=atom

It's a great tool for monitoring MediaWiki activity.  I use it to
monitor Rosetta Code.

Incidentally, GRLUG's wiki version is ancient, not to mention
difficult to contribute to.  My (nearly full-time) hobby is to
administer a growing publicly-writable MediaWiki-based wiki.  If
whoever runs the GRLUG wiki is looking for help with things, I'm game.
 Drop me an email, or catch me on Google Talk. (Do we have our own
Jabber server?)  I also idle on #grlug, but I'm usually home when
everyone else has signed off.


On 11/7/07, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:
> I needed to create an account, but yea.  I am using it for some linux
> documentation for myself and I thought that would be the best place
> for it.
>
> On Nov 7, 2007 9:47 AM, Michael Mol  wrote:
> > Whoa, the wiki is world-writable now?  When did that happen?
> >
> > I'll admit, it's been a while (probably a couple years) since I
> > visited the wiki.  I remember asking for an edit-capable account, and
> > being asked why I needed one.
> >
> >
> > On 11/7/07, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:
> > > Check out this page http://wiki.grlug.org/index.php?title=Help:Editing
> > > I have added some stuff and one addition is a wierd 
 and list
> > > issue.  Is there anything I am doing wrong, or is this just how the
> > > wiki works?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Share and Enjoy
> > > Ben
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > grlug mailing list
> > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > :wq
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Share and Enjoy
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>


-- 
:wq

From clamrock at nmtdie.com  Thu Nov  8 12:30:29 2007
From: clamrock at nmtdie.com (Chris Lamrock)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 12:30:29 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
References: 
	
Message-ID: <00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>

Hey guys,

I've got ubuntu on my family box at home.  I've been looking around at 
different content filtering schemes - i.e. dansguardian.  Previously we were 
using Bsafe online for Windows - which really did a good job - they don't 
make a linux version.  My wife uses the box as well so I need something that 
I can assign only to certain users - or have a fairly easy way of turning it 
on & off.  I'm also not opposed to blocking everything for the kids and only 
allowing a list of sites that I list...

Does anyone have any experience with a good content filter for kids and 
linux?

Thanks,

Chris 



From adderd at kkmfg.com  Thu Nov  8 13:38:14 2007
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin Kidder)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:38:14 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
In-Reply-To: <00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>
References: 	
	<00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>
Message-ID: <47335796.2070202@kkmfg.com>

Chris Lamrock wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience with a good content filter for kids and 
> linux?
>
>
>   

Yeah, I know of an excellent one. It's foolproof even. It's called 
parents. ;-) Seriously... Content filtering is a losing game. It never 
seems to work right. Things always slip through the cracks. On top of 
that, you either trust your kids on the net (which I wouldn't... I was a 
teenager once) or you supervise. I suppose you might want some sort of 
content filtering in case they accidentally get to somewhere bad.  
Still, this is a losing game. I don't care how good you think your kids 
are kids will try to get to places they shouldn't and content filters 
tend to work worth dog crap. Just my incredibly sunshiny opinion. ;-)

From brousch at gmail.com  Thu Nov  8 13:50:39 2007
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:50:39 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
In-Reply-To: <47335796.2070202@kkmfg.com>
References: 
	
	
	
	<00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>
	<47335796.2070202@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: 

>
>
> Yeah, I know of an excellent one. It's foolproof even. It's called
> parents. ;-) Seriously... Content filtering is a losing game. It never
> seems to work right. Things always slip through the cracks. On top of
> that, you either trust your kids on the net (which I wouldn't... I was a
> teenager once) or you supervise. I suppose you might want some sort of
> content filtering in case they accidentally get to somewhere bad.
> Still, this is a losing game. I don't care how good you think your kids
> are kids will try to get to places they shouldn't and content filters
> tend to work worth dog crap. Just my incredibly sunshiny opinion. ;-)
> _______________________________________________
>

Your opinion is spot-on when applied to adults (in the workplace) and
teenagers, who will actively attempt to defeat filters. But I think a
content filter for a young child is a good thing until he can understand the
difference between places he is allowed to go and places he should not be
going. The age when that happens will be different for each child. I think a
whitelist is good for very small children, a strict porn/gore filter is
appropriate for pre-teens, and hopefully he will have a sense of right and
wrong by the time he is a teenager and able to hack around whatever you put
in front of him.

I have been thinking a lot about this subject because my first child is
currently overdue by five days.
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From adderd at kkmfg.com  Thu Nov  8 13:59:12 2007
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin Kidder)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:59:12 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 				<00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>	<47335796.2070202@kkmfg.com>
	
Message-ID: <47335C80.10205@kkmfg.com>


>
> Your opinion is spot-on when applied to adults (in the workplace) and 
> teenagers, who will actively attempt to defeat filters. But I think a 
> content filter for a young child is a good thing until he can 
> understand the difference between places he is allowed to go and 
> places he should not be going. The age when that happens will be 
> different for each child. I think a whitelist is good for very small 
> children, a strict porn/gore filter is appropriate for pre-teens, and 
> hopefully he will have a sense of right and wrong by the time he is a 
> teenager and able to hack around whatever you put in front of him.
>
> I have been thinking a lot about this subject because my first child 
> is currently overdue by five days.
>
Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any kid 
over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be a 
decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by themselves 
anyway.

From brousch at gmail.com  Thu Nov  8 14:10:55 2007
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:10:55 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
In-Reply-To: <47335C80.10205@kkmfg.com>
References: 
	
	
	
	<00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>
	<47335796.2070202@kkmfg.com>
	
	<47335C80.10205@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: 

>
>
> Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any kid
> over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be a
> decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by themselves
> anyway.
> _______________________________________________
> 
>

Maybe I'm naive and overly optimistic, but I hope that by age 7 my child
will have the moral fiber and tech skills to surf the (porn/gore filtered)
web without my constant supervision. Personally, I think IM will be a bigger
problem than web surfing.
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From tehpopa at gmail.com  Thu Nov  8 14:26:12 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:26:12 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
	
	
	<00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>
	<47335796.2070202@kkmfg.com>
	
	<47335C80.10205@kkmfg.com>
	
Message-ID: 

I know everyone here is talking about why content filtering shouldn't be
needed, but I have a tip on what you can look into. It's called squid, and
it's mainly used as a proxy. You could even set up a different ruleset per
user as to what's granted. Setup is a bit tricky, but once it's set up it's
good to go. The upside is too that you can use it on other PC's in the
house. What's even more is that there are some freeware apps to check the
logs as well. We use a shareware app at our office called iam that gives us
a 1000 foot view of all traffic use.

On Nov 8, 2007 2:10 PM, Ben Rousch  wrote:

>
> > Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any kid
> >
> > over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be a
> > decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by themselves
> > anyway.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > 
> >
>
> Maybe I'm naive and overly optimistic, but I hope that by age 7 my child
> will have the moral fiber and tech skills to surf the (porn/gore filtered)
> web without my constant supervision. Personally, I think IM will be a bigger
> problem than web surfing.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From adderd at kkmfg.com  Thu Nov  8 14:27:45 2007
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin Kidder)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:27:45 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 				<00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>	<47335796.2070202@kkmfg.com>		<47335C80.10205@kkmfg.com>
	
Message-ID: <47336331.6080504@kkmfg.com>

Ben Rousch wrote:
>
>
>     Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For
>     any kid
>     over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be a
>     decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by themselves
>     anyway.
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>
> Maybe I'm naive and overly optimistic, but I hope that by age 7 my 
> child will have the moral fiber and tech skills to surf the (porn/gore 
> filtered) web without my constant supervision. Personally, I think IM 
> will be a bigger problem than web surfing.
>

Well no one said constant supervision but some wouldn't hurt. You do 
however also bring up an interesting point. Blocking webpages is all 
well and good but there is more to the net than HTTP. IM really can be a 
big problem sometimes.

From jtr at jrichards.org  Thu Nov  8 14:35:43 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:35:43 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
	
	
	<00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>
	<47335796.2070202@kkmfg.com>
	
	<47335C80.10205@kkmfg.com>
	
Message-ID: <20071108193543.GA4219@jrichards.org>

On Thu, Nov 08, 2007 at 02:10:55PM -0500, Ben Rousch wrote:
> > Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any kid
> > over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be a
> > decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by themselves
> > anyway.
> >
> 
> Maybe I'm naive and overly optimistic, but I hope that by age 7 my child
> will have the moral fiber and tech skills to surf the (porn/gore filtered)
> web without my constant supervision. Personally, I think IM will be a bigger
> problem than web surfing.

It is the "accidental" images that concern me.  Last winter, after getting a
Wii and the new Zelda for Christmas, I was looking for a bit of help figuring
out a task in the game.  I - with my son beside me - was reading a Zelda
walkthrough on a popular game site (the name eludes me at this point) when I
scrolled down a bit more to find a picture of a sex act that...well, somebody
please poke out my mind's eye.  Please.  At the time my son was looking at
the television screen so I was able to close the browser before he saw this
image.  Try explaining what those people were doing to a *nine* year old.  I
love elinks.  Safer browsing, especially for kids.  Honestly, though,
browsing the web is little different from watching "Kid Nation" and seeing a
provocative commercial from some adult drama that is on long after the
kiddies are asleep.  I really hate watching a *family show* and seeing a
commercial for Victoria's Secret.  My five-year-old girl does not need to
know Victoria has a secret, yet.
-- 
john-thomas
------
The worst thing about new books is that they keep us from reading the
old ones.
Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Thu Nov  8 14:43:06 2007
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin Kidder)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:43:06 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
In-Reply-To: <20071108193543.GA4219@jrichards.org>
References: 				<00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>	<47335796.2070202@kkmfg.com>		<47335C80.10205@kkmfg.com>	
	<20071108193543.GA4219@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <473366CA.20104@kkmfg.com>


> It is the "accidental" images that concern me.  Last winter, after getting a
> Wii and the new Zelda for Christmas, I was looking for a bit of help figuring
> out a task in the game.  I - with my son beside me - was reading a Zelda
> walkthrough on a popular game site (the name eludes me at this point) when I
> scrolled down a bit more to find a picture of a sex act that...well, somebody
> please poke out my mind's eye.  Please.  
>   
Actually thats one of the reasons that filters are so ineffective. You 
can do your best to block the bad sites and then still accidentally see 
a bad image on an otherwise good site. You could get spyware/adware and 
have them display bad content on good pages.
This makes even whitelisting far from foolproof. It's a hard, hard 
problem to solve.

From carlushenry at sagetech-llc.com  Thu Nov  8 20:53:09 2007
From: carlushenry at sagetech-llc.com (Carlus Henry)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:53:09 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] grlug Digest, Vol 20, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

Finally, a discussion that I feel that I can contribute to.....hehehe

I have been using Open DNS for the past
6 months.  I absolutely love it.  I love it so much that I sent emails
out to all of my friends, family members, local churches and schools
as a means to filter out unwanted content.

It took minutes to set up, and did not require any kind of install.
Also it is absolutely free to use.  Another benefit is that you can
control it remotely.  It already has categorized many websites into
adult themed, and gore to name a few.  You can choose to block these
sites, as well as maintain your own black and white lists.  I have
joked with my wife, that if she buys one more thing from ebay, that I
am going to start blocking it from coming to our house.

So if you are looking for a good solution that requires little
maintenance, I would definitely recommend giving Open DNS a look.

Carlus

On Nov 8, 2007 2:23 PM,   wrote:
> Send grlug mailing list submissions to
>         grlug at grlug.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         grlug-request at grlug.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         grlug-owner at grlug.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of grlug digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Web filter for kids? (Ben Rousch)
>    2. Re: Web filter for kids? (Collin Kidder)
>    3. Re: Web filter for kids? (Ben Rousch)
>    4. Re: Web filter for kids? (Justin Popa)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:50:39 -0500
> From: "Ben Rousch" 
> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> To: grlug at grlug.org
> Message-ID:
>         
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> >
> >
> > Yeah, I know of an excellent one. It's foolproof even. It's called
> > parents. ;-) Seriously... Content filtering is a losing game. It never
> > seems to work right. Things always slip through the cracks. On top of
> > that, you either trust your kids on the net (which I wouldn't... I was a
> > teenager once) or you supervise. I suppose you might want some sort of
> > content filtering in case they accidentally get to somewhere bad.
> > Still, this is a losing game. I don't care how good you think your kids
> > are kids will try to get to places they shouldn't and content filters
> > tend to work worth dog crap. Just my incredibly sunshiny opinion. ;-)
> > _______________________________________________
> >
>
> Your opinion is spot-on when applied to adults (in the workplace) and
> teenagers, who will actively attempt to defeat filters. But I think a
> content filter for a young child is a good thing until he can understand the
> difference between places he is allowed to go and places he should not be
> going. The age when that happens will be different for each child. I think a
> whitelist is good for very small children, a strict porn/gore filter is
> appropriate for pre-teens, and hopefully he will have a sense of right and
> wrong by the time he is a teenager and able to hack around whatever you put
> in front of him.
>
> I have been thinking a lot about this subject because my first child is
> currently overdue by five days.
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071108/808b279e/attachment-0001.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:59:12 -0500
> From: Collin Kidder 
> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> To: grlug at grlug.org
> Message-ID: <47335C80.10205 at kkmfg.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>
>
> >
> > Your opinion is spot-on when applied to adults (in the workplace) and
> > teenagers, who will actively attempt to defeat filters. But I think a
> > content filter for a young child is a good thing until he can
> > understand the difference between places he is allowed to go and
> > places he should not be going. The age when that happens will be
> > different for each child. I think a whitelist is good for very small
> > children, a strict porn/gore filter is appropriate for pre-teens, and
> > hopefully he will have a sense of right and wrong by the time he is a
> > teenager and able to hack around whatever you put in front of him.
> >
> > I have been thinking a lot about this subject because my first child
> > is currently overdue by five days.
> >
> Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any kid
> over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be a
> decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by themselves
> anyway.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:10:55 -0500
> From: "Ben Rousch" 
> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> To: grlug at grlug.org
> Message-ID:
>         
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> >
> >
> > Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any kid
> > over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be a
> > decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by themselves
> > anyway.
> > _______________________________________________
> > 
> >
>
> Maybe I'm naive and overly optimistic, but I hope that by age 7 my child
> will have the moral fiber and tech skills to surf the (porn/gore filtered)
> web without my constant supervision. Personally, I think IM will be a bigger
> problem than web surfing.
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071108/0dde5369/attachment-0001.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:26:12 -0500
> From: "Justin Popa" 
> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> To: grlug at grlug.org
> Message-ID:
>         
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I know everyone here is talking about why content filtering shouldn't be
> needed, but I have a tip on what you can look into. It's called squid, and
> it's mainly used as a proxy. You could even set up a different ruleset per
> user as to what's granted. Setup is a bit tricky, but once it's set up it's
> good to go. The upside is too that you can use it on other PC's in the
> house. What's even more is that there are some freeware apps to check the
> logs as well. We use a shareware app at our office called iam that gives us
> a 1000 foot view of all traffic use.
>
> On Nov 8, 2007 2:10 PM, Ben Rousch  wrote:
>
> >
> > > Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any kid
> > >
> > > over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be a
> > > decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by themselves
> > > anyway.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > 
> > >
> >
> > Maybe I'm naive and overly optimistic, but I hope that by age 7 my child
> > will have the moral fiber and tech skills to surf the (porn/gore filtered)
> > web without my constant supervision. Personally, I think IM will be a bigger
> > problem than web surfing.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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> Type: application/defanged-32556
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> Desc: not available
> Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071108/78b6a543/attachment.bin
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> End of grlug Digest, Vol 20, Issue 24
> *************************************
>



-- 
Carlus Henry
SageTech L.L.C.
616.295.0149 cell
www.sagetech-llc.com | http://jdcarlflip.blogspot.com/

From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Nov  8 21:00:21 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:00:21 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
In-Reply-To: <00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>
References: 	
	<00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>
Message-ID: <4733BF35.3050202@ameritech.net>

Chris Lamrock wrote:
> Hey guys,
> 
SNIP

> I'm also not opposed to blocking everything for the kids and only 
> allowing a list of sites that I list...

At the risk of actually answering the question you asked, this last is
not hard to do. Disable DNS for the little ones and put your "whitelist"
of allowed sites, with their IP addresses in /etc/hosts. Maybe you could
teach them to add the inaccessible sites that they want to visit onto a
"wish list" that you can review, perhaps while you sit down with them.
It might take a while to build up a workable set, and it's likely to
need some maintenance, but this plan seems like a start.

Oh, it seems to me that the easiest way to disable DNS only for *some*
users is to make the file /etc/resolv.conf readable to one group and
putting the kids in a group without such permissions.


> Does anyone have any experience with a good content filter for kids and 
> linux?

Experience? No, I'm just putting this forward a a plausible idea.
Ray

> Thanks,
> 
> Chris 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 


From ndrier at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 07:23:09 2007
From: ndrier at gmail.com (Nathan Drier)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 07:23:09 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
In-Reply-To: <4733BF35.3050202@ameritech.net>
References: 		<00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>
	<4733BF35.3050202@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <4734512D.6000308@gmail.com>


> Chris Lamrock wrote:
>   
>> Hey guys,
>>
>>     
> SNIPITY SNIP SNIP

Check out www.smoothwall.org

Its a linux based firewall with some goodies built in.  It runs a squid
proxy - which will log all the sites requested by IP.  Also has a ton
plugins such as Dans Guardian to help filter out unwanted content.  It
can also schedule internet access for certian times,  and can log /
block all IM conversations.  Also comes stock with Antivirus scanner,
QoS, and an IDS.  All you need is a low-end box with a couple nic's. 
Mine runs on a 1.0ghz / 256MB / 20 GIG, and idles at about 5 or 6% with
everything turned on.

Ive been running it for a few years now - really stable product. 


From flanderb at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 07:33:24 2007
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 07:33:24 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Open DNS was Re:  grlug Digest, Vol 20, Issue 24
Message-ID: 

I have nothing but trouble with openDNS.  I tried it for about two
weeks when comcast DNS servers were flaky a while back.

The issues I had were, I had to (I forget the wording for this)
reregister google with the service at least twice a day.  This is
where I would get the message saying that OpenDNS didn't think
www.google.com was a valid domain name and it went to an openDNS
webpage where I had to type in a captcha and click a link so I could
go to Google.  This was a big issue because I use gmail and google
calendar.

Also, I would get google maps with part of the map not showing up.
Nothing I did would fix the issue.  It wasn't consistent as to which
parts of the map would be greyed out but there was usually 3-4 squares
gone.

The reregister thing happened to a lot of other sites as well, but not
as consistently as google.

Am I the only one that has the issue?  I remember googling it but not
finding any remedy.


On Nov 8, 2007 8:53 PM, Carlus Henry  wrote:
> Finally, a discussion that I feel that I can contribute to.....hehehe
>
> I have been using Open DNS for the past
> 6 months.  I absolutely love it.  I love it so much that I sent emails
> out to all of my friends, family members, local churches and schools
> as a means to filter out unwanted content.
>
> It took minutes to set up, and did not require any kind of install.
> Also it is absolutely free to use.  Another benefit is that you can
> control it remotely.  It already has categorized many websites into
> adult themed, and gore to name a few.  You can choose to block these
> sites, as well as maintain your own black and white lists.  I have
> joked with my wife, that if she buys one more thing from ebay, that I
> am going to start blocking it from coming to our house.
>
> So if you are looking for a good solution that requires little
> maintenance, I would definitely recommend giving Open DNS a look.
>
> Carlus
>
> On Nov 8, 2007 2:23 PM,   wrote:
> > Send grlug mailing list submissions to
> >         grlug at grlug.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >         http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >         grlug-request at grlug.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >         grlug-owner at grlug.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of grlug digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Re: Web filter for kids? (Ben Rousch)
> >    2. Re: Web filter for kids? (Collin Kidder)
> >    3. Re: Web filter for kids? (Ben Rousch)
> >    4. Re: Web filter for kids? (Justin Popa)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:50:39 -0500
> > From: "Ben Rousch" 
> > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > Message-ID:
> >         
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah, I know of an excellent one. It's foolproof even. It's called
> > > parents. ;-) Seriously... Content filtering is a losing game. It never
> > > seems to work right. Things always slip through the cracks. On top of
> > > that, you either trust your kids on the net (which I wouldn't... I was a
> > > teenager once) or you supervise. I suppose you might want some sort of
> > > content filtering in case they accidentally get to somewhere bad.
> > > Still, this is a losing game. I don't care how good you think your kids
> > > are kids will try to get to places they shouldn't and content filters
> > > tend to work worth dog crap. Just my incredibly sunshiny opinion. ;-)
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> >
> > Your opinion is spot-on when applied to adults (in the workplace) and
> > teenagers, who will actively attempt to defeat filters. But I think a
> > content filter for a young child is a good thing until he can understand the
> > difference between places he is allowed to go and places he should not be
> > going. The age when that happens will be different for each child. I think a
> > whitelist is good for very small children, a strict porn/gore filter is
> > appropriate for pre-teens, and hopefully he will have a sense of right and
> > wrong by the time he is a teenager and able to hack around whatever you put
> > in front of him.
> >
> > I have been thinking a lot about this subject because my first child is
> > currently overdue by five days.
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071108/808b279e/attachment-0001.htm
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:59:12 -0500
> > From: Collin Kidder 
> > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > Message-ID: <47335C80.10205 at kkmfg.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Your opinion is spot-on when applied to adults (in the workplace) and
> > > teenagers, who will actively attempt to defeat filters. But I think a
> > > content filter for a young child is a good thing until he can
> > > understand the difference between places he is allowed to go and
> > > places he should not be going. The age when that happens will be
> > > different for each child. I think a whitelist is good for very small
> > > children, a strict porn/gore filter is appropriate for pre-teens, and
> > > hopefully he will have a sense of right and wrong by the time he is a
> > > teenager and able to hack around whatever you put in front of him.
> > >
> > > I have been thinking a lot about this subject because my first child
> > > is currently overdue by five days.
> > >
> > Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any kid
> > over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be a
> > decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by themselves
> > anyway.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:10:55 -0500
> > From: "Ben Rousch" 
> > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > Message-ID:
> >         
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any kid
> > > over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be a
> > > decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by themselves
> > > anyway.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > 
> > >
> >
> > Maybe I'm naive and overly optimistic, but I hope that by age 7 my child
> > will have the moral fiber and tech skills to surf the (porn/gore filtered)
> > web without my constant supervision. Personally, I think IM will be a bigger
> > problem than web surfing.
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071108/0dde5369/attachment-0001.htm
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:26:12 -0500
> > From: "Justin Popa" 
> > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > Message-ID:
> >         
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > I know everyone here is talking about why content filtering shouldn't be
> > needed, but I have a tip on what you can look into. It's called squid, and
> > it's mainly used as a proxy. You could even set up a different ruleset per
> > user as to what's granted. Setup is a bit tricky, but once it's set up it's
> > good to go. The upside is too that you can use it on other PC's in the
> > house. What's even more is that there are some freeware apps to check the
> > logs as well. We use a shareware app at our office called iam that gives us
> > a 1000 foot view of all traffic use.
> >
> > On Nov 8, 2007 2:10 PM, Ben Rousch  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any kid
> > > >
> > > > over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be a
> > > > decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by themselves
> > > > anyway.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > > Maybe I'm naive and overly optimistic, but I hope that by age 7 my child
> > > will have the moral fiber and tech skills to surf the (porn/gore filtered)
> > > web without my constant supervision. Personally, I think IM will be a bigger
> > > problem than web surfing.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > grlug mailing list
> > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > Name: not available
> > Type: application/defanged-32556
> > Size: 1988 bytes
> > Desc: not available
> > Url : http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071108/78b6a543/attachment.bin
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
> > End of grlug Digest, Vol 20, Issue 24
> > *************************************
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Carlus Henry
> SageTech L.L.C.
> 616.295.0149 cell
> www.sagetech-llc.com | http://jdcarlflip.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From brousch at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 08:00:18 2007
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:00:18 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Open DNS was Re: grlug Digest, Vol 20, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 9, 2007 7:33 AM, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:

> I have nothing but trouble with openDNS.  I tried it for about two
> weeks when comcast DNS servers were flaky a while back.
>
> The issues I had were, I had to (I forget the wording for this)
> reregister google with the service at least twice a day.  This is
> where I would get the message saying that OpenDNS didn't think
> www.google.com was a valid domain name and it went to an openDNS
> webpage where I had to type in a captcha and click a link so I could
> go to Google.  This was a big issue because I use gmail and google
> calendar.
>
> Also, I would get google maps with part of the map not showing up.
> Nothing I did would fix the issue.  It wasn't consistent as to which
> parts of the map would be greyed out but there was usually 3-4 squares
> gone.
>
> The reregister thing happened to a lot of other sites as well, but not
> as consistently as google.
>
> Am I the only one that has the issue?  I remember googling it but not
> finding any remedy.
>

I have been using OpenDNS at work and at home for about a year and have not
experienced any problems with it. I also use Google and Gmail all the time.
OpenDNS did help clear up about 3/4 of the problems he was having with
Comcast a while ago.
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From clamrock at nmtdie.com  Fri Nov  9 08:27:54 2007
From: clamrock at nmtdie.com (Chris Lamrock)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:27:54 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
References: 		<00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock><4733BF35.3050202@ameritech.net>
	<4734512D.6000308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004101c822d4$559e0690$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>

Thanks Nathan - I'll check this out!


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nathan Drier" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?


> 
>> Chris Lamrock wrote:
>>   
>>> Hey guys,
>>>
>>>     
>> SNIPITY SNIP SNIP
> 
> Check out www.smoothwall.org
> 
> Its a linux based firewall with some goodies built in.  It runs a squid
> proxy - which will log all the sites requested by IP.  Also has a ton
> plugins such as Dans Guardian to help filter out unwanted content.  It
> can also schedule internet access for certian times,  and can log /
> block all IM conversations.  Also comes stock with Antivirus scanner,
> QoS, and an IDS.  All you need is a low-end box with a couple nic's. 
> Mine runs on a 1.0ghz / 256MB / 20 GIG, and idles at about 5 or 6% with
> everything turned on.
> 
> Ive been running it for a few years now - really stable product. 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 
> !DSPAM:47344fa2144261003210959!
>


From clamrock at nmtdie.com  Fri Nov  9 08:28:39 2007
From: clamrock at nmtdie.com (Chris Lamrock)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:28:39 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
References: 	<00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>
	<4733BF35.3050202@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <004701c822d4$70838de0$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>

Thanks also Ray - I might explore this idea as well... I do like the idea of 
whitelisting.....


----- Original Mess age ----- 
From: "Raymond McLaughlin" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?


> Chris Lamrock wrote:
>> Hey guys,
>>
> SNIP
>
>> I'm also not opposed to blocking everything for the kids and only
>> allowing a list of sites that I list...
>
> At the risk of actually answering the question you asked, this last is
> not hard to do. Disable DNS for the little ones and put your "whitelist"
> of allowed sites, with their IP addresses in /etc/hosts. Maybe you could
> teach them to add the inaccessible sites that they want to visit onto a
> "wish list" that you can review, perhaps while you sit down with them.
> It might take a while to build up a workable set, and it's likely to
> need some maintenance, but this plan seems like a start.
>
> Oh, it seems to me that the easiest way to disable DNS only for *some*
> users is to make the file /etc/resolv.conf readable to one group and
> putting the kids in a group without such permissions.
>
>
>> Does anyone have any experience with a good content filter for kids and
>> linux?
>
> Experience? No, I'm just putting this forward a a plausible idea.
> Ray
>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> grlug mailing list
>> grlug at grlug.org
>> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> !DSPAM:4733c04f130101080112844!
> 



From jtr at jrichards.org  Fri Nov  9 08:44:49 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:44:49 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Open DNS was Re:  grlug Digest, Vol 20, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20071109134449.GA2792@jrichards.org>

On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 07:33:24AM -0500, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> I have nothing but trouble with openDNS.  I tried it for about two
> weeks when comcast DNS servers were flaky a while back.
> 
> The issues I had were, I had to (I forget the wording for this)
> reregister google with the service at least twice a day.  This is
> where I would get the message saying that OpenDNS didn't think
> www.google.com was a valid domain name and it went to an openDNS
> webpage where I had to type in a captcha and click a link so I could
> go to Google.  This was a big issue because I use gmail and google
> calendar.
> 
> Also, I would get google maps with part of the map not showing up.
> Nothing I did would fix the issue.  It wasn't consistent as to which
> parts of the map would be greyed out but there was usually 3-4 squares
> gone.
> 
> The reregister thing happened to a lot of other sites as well, but not
> as consistently as google.
> 
> Am I the only one that has the issue?  I remember googling it but not
> finding any remedy.
[sniiiiiiiip]

I have been using OpenDNS' DNS service for some time.  The only problem I
have had is with machine names within a domain.  For example, www.foo.com
works but bar.foo.com may not.

If you have trouble reaching Google, I think I know why googling for help
failed to turn up a remedy.  ;-)
-- 
john-thomas
------
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much
liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

From brousch at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 09:01:49 2007
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:01:49 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
In-Reply-To: <4734512D.6000308@gmail.com>
References: 
	
	
	
	<00f201c8222d$0eb51400$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>
	<4733BF35.3050202@ameritech.net> <4734512D.6000308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

>
>
> Check out www.smoothwall.org
>
> Its a linux based firewall with some goodies built in.  It runs a squid
> proxy - which will log all the sites requested by IP.  Also has a ton
> plugins such as Dans Guardian to help filter out unwanted content.  It
> can also schedule internet access for certian times,  and can log /
> block all IM conversations.  Also comes stock with Antivirus scanner,
> QoS, and an IDS.  All you need is a low-end box with a couple nic's.
> Mine runs on a 1.0ghz / 256MB / 20 GIG, and idles at about 5 or 6% with
> everything turned on.
>
> Ive been running it for a few years now - really stable product.
>
> _______________________________________________
>

I have also been using Smoothwall for a long time. I ran it at home on P-133
with 64MB for a couple of years. It ran well, but the web interface was slow
on that setup. I now use it at work as the firewall/squid proxy/content
filter for 20 users running on a Duron-933MHz with 512MB. The interface runs
at an acceptable speed, but updating the content filters can be tedious.
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From greenhulk at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 10:06:22 2007
From: greenhulk at gmail.com (Matthew Whitaker)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:06:22 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Open DNS was Re: grlug Digest, Vol 20, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

I have been using openDNS for the last 6 months or so, and I love it.  I
found the Charter DNS servers to be flaky at best, and my experience has
been much better since switching over to openDNS.  I also use gmail, google
documents, calendar, and maps all on a regular basis and have not
experienced any problems with any of them.

On Nov 9, 2007 7:33 AM, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:

> I have nothing but trouble with openDNS.  I tried it for about two
> weeks when comcast DNS servers were flaky a while back.
>
> The issues I had were, I had to (I forget the wording for this)
> reregister google with the service at least twice a day.  This is
> where I would get the message saying that OpenDNS didn't think
> www.google.com was a valid domain name and it went to an openDNS
> webpage where I had to type in a captcha and click a link so I could
> go to Google.  This was a big issue because I use gmail and google
> calendar.
>
> Also, I would get google maps with part of the map not showing up.
> Nothing I did would fix the issue.  It wasn't consistent as to which
> parts of the map would be greyed out but there was usually 3-4 squares
> gone.
>
> The reregister thing happened to a lot of other sites as well, but not
> as consistently as google.
>
> Am I the only one that has the issue?  I remember googling it but not
> finding any remedy.
>
>
> On Nov 8, 2007 8:53 PM, Carlus Henry  wrote:
> > Finally, a discussion that I feel that I can contribute to.....hehehe
> >
> > I have been using Open DNS for the past
> > 6 months.  I absolutely love it.  I love it so much that I sent emails
> > out to all of my friends, family members, local churches and schools
> > as a means to filter out unwanted content.
> >
> > It took minutes to set up, and did not require any kind of install.
> > Also it is absolutely free to use.  Another benefit is that you can
> > control it remotely.  It already has categorized many websites into
> > adult themed, and gore to name a few.  You can choose to block these
> > sites, as well as maintain your own black and white lists.  I have
> > joked with my wife, that if she buys one more thing from ebay, that I
> > am going to start blocking it from coming to our house.
> >
> > So if you are looking for a good solution that requires little
> > maintenance, I would definitely recommend giving Open DNS a look.
> >
> > Carlus
> >
> > On Nov 8, 2007 2:23 PM,   wrote:
> > > Send grlug mailing list submissions to
> > >         grlug at grlug.org
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > >         http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > >         grlug-request at grlug.org
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > >         grlug-owner at grlug.org
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > than "Re: Contents of grlug digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > >    1. Re: Web filter for kids? (Ben Rousch)
> > >    2. Re: Web filter for kids? (Collin Kidder)
> > >    3. Re: Web filter for kids? (Ben Rousch)
> > >    4. Re: Web filter for kids? (Justin Popa)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:50:39 -0500
> > > From: "Ben Rousch" 
> > > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> > > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > > Message-ID:
> > >         
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, I know of an excellent one. It's foolproof even. It's called
> > > > parents. ;-) Seriously... Content filtering is a losing game. It
> never
> > > > seems to work right. Things always slip through the cracks. On top
> of
> > > > that, you either trust your kids on the net (which I wouldn't... I
> was a
> > > > teenager once) or you supervise. I suppose you might want some sort
> of
> > > > content filtering in case they accidentally get to somewhere bad.
> > > > Still, this is a losing game. I don't care how good you think your
> kids
> > > > are kids will try to get to places they shouldn't and content
> filters
> > > > tend to work worth dog crap. Just my incredibly sunshiny opinion.
> ;-)
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > >
> > > Your opinion is spot-on when applied to adults (in the workplace) and
> > > teenagers, who will actively attempt to defeat filters. But I think a
> > > content filter for a young child is a good thing until he can
> understand the
> > > difference between places he is allowed to go and places he should not
> be
> > > going. The age when that happens will be different for each child. I
> think a
> > > whitelist is good for very small children, a strict porn/gore filter
> is
> > > appropriate for pre-teens, and hopefully he will have a sense of right
> and
> > > wrong by the time he is a teenager and able to hack around whatever
> you put
> > > in front of him.
> > >
> > > I have been thinking a lot about this subject because my first child
> is
> > > currently overdue by five days.
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL:
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071108/808b279e/attachment-0001.htm
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:59:12 -0500
> > > From: Collin Kidder 
> > > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> > > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > > Message-ID: <47335C80.10205 at kkmfg.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Your opinion is spot-on when applied to adults (in the workplace)
> and
> > > > teenagers, who will actively attempt to defeat filters. But I think
> a
> > > > content filter for a young child is a good thing until he can
> > > > understand the difference between places he is allowed to go and
> > > > places he should not be going. The age when that happens will be
> > > > different for each child. I think a whitelist is good for very small
> > > > children, a strict porn/gore filter is appropriate for pre-teens,
> and
> > > > hopefully he will have a sense of right and wrong by the time he is
> a
> > > > teenager and able to hack around whatever you put in front of him.
> > > >
> > > > I have been thinking a lot about this subject because my first child
> > > > is currently overdue by five days.
> > > >
> > > Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any
> kid
> > > over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be a
> > > decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by themselves
> > > anyway.
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:10:55 -0500
> > > From: "Ben Rousch" 
> > > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> > > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > > Message-ID:
> > >         
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any
> kid
> > > > over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be
> a
> > > > decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by
> themselves
> > > > anyway.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > > Maybe I'm naive and overly optimistic, but I hope that by age 7 my
> child
> > > will have the moral fiber and tech skills to surf the (porn/gore
> filtered)
> > > web without my constant supervision. Personally, I think IM will be a
> bigger
> > > problem than web surfing.
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL:
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071108/0dde5369/attachment-0001.htm
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 4
> > > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:26:12 -0500
> > > From: "Justin Popa" 
> > > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> > > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > > Message-ID:
> > >         
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >
> > > I know everyone here is talking about why content filtering shouldn't
> be
> > > needed, but I have a tip on what you can look into. It's called squid,
> and
> > > it's mainly used as a proxy. You could even set up a different ruleset
> per
> > > user as to what's granted. Setup is a bit tricky, but once it's set up
> it's
> > > good to go. The upside is too that you can use it on other PC's in the
> > > house. What's even more is that there are some freeware apps to check
> the
> > > logs as well. We use a shareware app at our office called iam that
> gives us
> > > a 1000 foot view of all traffic use.
> > >
> > > On Nov 8, 2007 2:10 PM, Ben Rousch  wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For
> any kid
> > > > >
> > > > > over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could
> be a
> > > > > decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by
> themselves
> > > > > anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Maybe I'm naive and overly optimistic, but I hope that by age 7 my
> child
> > > > will have the moral fiber and tech skills to surf the (porn/gore
> filtered)
> > > > web without my constant supervision. Personally, I think IM will be
> a bigger
> > > > problem than web surfing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > grlug mailing list
> > > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > > >
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > > Name: not available
> > > Type: application/defanged-32556
> > > Size: 1988 bytes
> > > Desc: not available
> > > Url :
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071108/78b6a543/attachment.bin
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > grlug mailing list
> > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > >
> > > End of grlug Digest, Vol 20, Issue 24
> > > *************************************
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Carlus Henry
> > SageTech L.L.C.
> > 616.295.0149 cell
> > www.sagetech-llc.com | http://jdcarlflip.blogspot.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Share and Enjoy
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From flanderb at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 10:22:25 2007
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:22:25 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Open DNS was Re: grlug Digest, Vol 20, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
Message-ID: 

:)
It must have been something with my computer because all the google
results I found were experiences like you are describing i.e. glowing
reports.  That or my router configuration.

I'll have to take a look at it when I get home.  Is there anything
specific I should look at?



On Nov 9, 2007 10:06 AM, Matthew Whitaker  wrote:
> I have been using openDNS for the last 6 months or so, and I love it.  I
> found the Charter DNS servers to be flaky at best, and my experience has
> been much better since switching over to openDNS.  I also use gmail, google
> documents, calendar, and maps all on a regular basis and have not
> experienced any problems with any of them.
>
>
>
> On Nov 9, 2007 7:33 AM, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:
>
>
> > I have nothing but trouble with openDNS.  I tried it for about two
> > weeks when comcast DNS servers were flaky a while back.
> >
> > The issues I had were, I had to (I forget the wording for this)
> > reregister google with the service at least twice a day.  This is
> > where I would get the message saying that OpenDNS didn't think
> > www.google.com was a valid domain name and it went to an openDNS
> > webpage where I had to type in a captcha and click a link so I could
> > go to Google.  This was a big issue because I use gmail and google
> > calendar.
> >
> > Also, I would get google maps with part of the map not showing up.
> > Nothing I did would fix the issue.  It wasn't consistent as to which
> > parts of the map would be greyed out but there was usually 3-4 squares
> > gone.
> >
> > The reregister thing happened to a lot of other sites as well, but not
> > as consistently as google.
> >
> > Am I the only one that has the issue?  I remember googling it but not
> > finding any remedy.
> >
> >
> > On Nov 8, 2007 8:53 PM, Carlus Henry  wrote:
> > > Finally, a discussion that I feel that I can contribute to.....hehehe
> > >
> > > I have been using Open DNS for the past
> > > 6 months.  I absolutely love it.  I love it so much that I sent emails
> > > out to all of my friends, family members, local churches and schools
> > > as a means to filter out unwanted content.
> > >
> > > It took minutes to set up, and did not require any kind of install.
> > > Also it is absolutely free to use.  Another benefit is that you can
> > > control it remotely.  It already has categorized many websites into
> > > adult themed, and gore to name a few.  You can choose to block these
> > > sites, as well as maintain your own black and white lists.  I have
> > > joked with my wife, that if she buys one more thing from ebay, that I
> > > am going to start blocking it from coming to our house.
> > >
> > > So if you are looking for a good solution that requires little
> > > maintenance, I would definitely recommend giving Open DNS a look.
> > >
> > > Carlus
> > >
> > > On Nov 8, 2007 2:23 PM,   wrote:
> > > > Send grlug mailing list submissions to
> > > >         grlug at grlug.org
> > > >
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > >         http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > >         grlug-request at grlug.org
> > > >
> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > >         grlug-owner at grlug.org
> > > >
> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > > than "Re: Contents of grlug digest..."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Today's Topics:
> > > >
> > > >    1. Re: Web filter for kids? (Ben Rousch)
> > > >    2. Re: Web filter for kids? (Collin Kidder)
> > > >    3. Re: Web filter for kids? (Ben Rousch)
> > > >    4. Re: Web filter for kids? (Justin Popa)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 1
> > > > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:50:39 -0500
> > > > From: "Ben Rousch" < brousch at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> > > > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > >         < d92a2d930711081050g529a02c4y67019d8a0c1227c8 at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah, I know of an excellent one. It's foolproof even. It's called
> > > > > parents. ;-) Seriously... Content filtering is a losing game. It
> never
> > > > > seems to work right. Things always slip through the cracks. On top
> of
> > > > > that, you either trust your kids on the net (which I wouldn't... I
> was a
> > > > > teenager once) or you supervise. I suppose you might want some sort
> of
> > > > > content filtering in case they accidentally get to somewhere bad.
> > > > > Still, this is a losing game. I don't care how good you think your
> kids
> > > > > are kids will try to get to places they shouldn't and content
> filters
> > > > > tend to work worth dog crap. Just my incredibly sunshiny opinion.
> ;-)
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your opinion is spot-on when applied to adults (in the workplace) and
> > > > teenagers, who will actively attempt to defeat filters. But I think a
> > > > content filter for a young child is a good thing until he can
> understand the
> > > > difference between places he is allowed to go and places he should not
> be
> > > > going. The age when that happens will be different for each child. I
> think a
> > > > whitelist is good for very small children, a strict porn/gore filter
> is
> > > > appropriate for pre-teens, and hopefully he will have a sense of right
> and
> > > > wrong by the time he is a teenager and able to hack around whatever
> you put
> > > > in front of him.
> > > >
> > > > I have been thinking a lot about this subject because my first child
> is
> > > > currently overdue by five days.
> > > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > URL:
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071108/808b279e/attachment-0001.htm
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 2
> > > > Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:59:12 -0500
> > > > From: Collin Kidder 
> > > > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> > > > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > > > Message-ID: <47335C80.10205 at kkmfg.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your opinion is spot-on when applied to adults (in the workplace)
> and
> > > > > teenagers, who will actively attempt to defeat filters. But I think
> a
> > > > > content filter for a young child is a good thing until he can
> > > > > understand the difference between places he is allowed to go and
> > > > > places he should not be going. The age when that happens will be
> > > > > different for each child. I think a whitelist is good for very small
> > > > > children, a strict porn/gore filter is appropriate for pre-teens,
> and
> > > > > hopefully he will have a sense of right and wrong by the time he is
> a
> > > > > teenager and able to hack around whatever you put in front of him.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been thinking a lot about this subject because my first child
> > > > > is currently overdue by five days.
> > > > >
> > > > Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any
> kid
> > > > over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be a
> > > > decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by themselves
> > > > anyway.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 3
> > > > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:10:55 -0500
> > > > From: "Ben Rousch" 
> > > > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> > > > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > >         < d92a2d930711081110s4cfd986fi7f32fb2560da4204 at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For any
> kid
> > > > > over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could be
> a
> > > > > decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by
> themselves
> > > > > anyway.
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Maybe I'm naive and overly optimistic, but I hope that by age 7 my
> child
> > > > will have the moral fiber and tech skills to surf the (porn/gore
> filtered)
> > > > web without my constant supervision. Personally, I think IM will be a
> bigger
> > > > problem than web surfing.
> > > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > URL:
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071108/0dde5369/attachment-0001.htm
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 4
> > > > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:26:12 -0500
> > > > From: "Justin Popa" 
> > > > Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Web filter for kids?
> > > > To: grlug at grlug.org
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > >         
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > > >
> > > > I know everyone here is talking about why content filtering shouldn't
> be
> > > > needed, but I have a tip on what you can look into. It's called squid,
> and
> > > > it's mainly used as a proxy. You could even set up a different ruleset
> per
> > > > user as to what's granted. Setup is a bit tricky, but once it's set up
> it's
> > > > good to go. The upside is too that you can use it on other PC's in the
> > > > house. What's even more is that there are some freeware apps to check
> the
> > > > logs as well. We use a shareware app at our office called iam that
> gives us
> > > > a 1000 foot view of all traffic use.
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 8, 2007 2:10 PM, Ben Rousch < brousch at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, sorry... It does really depend on the age of the child. For
> any kid
> > > > > >
> > > > > > over 12 I'd say filters are worthless. For younger kids it could
> be a
> > > > > > decent idea but I wouldn't let a 7 year old surf the net by
> themselves
> > > > > > anyway.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe I'm naive and overly optimistic, but I hope that by age 7 my
> child
> > > > > will have the moral fiber and tech skills to surf the (porn/gore
> filtered)
> > > > > web without my constant supervision. Personally, I think IM will be
> a bigger
> > > > > problem than web surfing.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > grlug mailing list
> > > > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > > > >
> > > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > Name: not available
> > > > Type: application/defanged-32556
> > > > Size: 1988 bytes
> > > > Desc: not available
> > > > Url :
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/pipermail/grlug/attachments/20071108/78b6a543/attachment.bin
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > grlug mailing list
> > > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > > >
> > > > End of grlug Digest, Vol 20, Issue 24
> > > > *************************************
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Carlus Henry
> > > SageTech L.L.C.
> > > 616.295.0149 cell
> > > www.sagetech-llc.com | http://jdcarlflip.blogspot.com/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > grlug mailing list
> > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Share and Enjoy
> > Ben
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From flanderb at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 11:16:54 2007
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:16:54 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Google Question
Message-ID: 

I'm just wondering if anyone actually uses the Goooooogle at the
bottom of the google page?  I just realized that if the site I am
looking for doesn't come up on the first page I refine the search
terms.  Most of the time don't even scroll down, if it isn't visible
on the screen, I re-search.

I just realized that I rarely go the the second page because I just
did it today and it felt weird.



-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From abrummitt at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 11:31:42 2007
From: abrummitt at gmail.com (Aaron M. Brummitt)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:31:42 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Google Question
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <1fa63b160711090831n5f095446sf655bf3dc30e5b24@mail.gmail.com>

I only use the second page when looking for help with very specific error
messages.  I guess at that point my search is about as narrow as its going
to get.  Other than that, rarely do I hit any part of the oooooooogle.

/AMB

On Nov 9, 2007 11:16 AM, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:

> I'm just wondering if anyone actually uses the Goooooogle at the
> bottom of the google page?  I just realized that if the site I am
> looking for doesn't come up on the first page I refine the search
> terms.  Most of the time don't even scroll down, if it isn't visible
> on the screen, I re-search.
>
> I just realized that I rarely go the the second page because I just
> did it today and it felt weird.
>
>
>
> --
> Share and Enjoy
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From clamrock at nmtdie.com  Fri Nov  9 11:34:20 2007
From: clamrock at nmtdie.com (Chris Lamrock)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:34:20 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Google Question
References: 
	<1fa63b160711090831n5f095446sf655bf3dc30e5b24@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a901c822ee$61305f20$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Aaron M. Brummitt 
  To: grlug at grlug.org 
  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 11:31 AM
  Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Google Question


  I only use the second page when looking for help with very specific error messages.  I guess at that point my search is about as narrow as its going to get.  Other than that, rarely do I hit any part of the oooooooogle.

  /AMB


  On Nov 9, 2007 11:16 AM, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:


    I'm just wondering if anyone actually uses the Goooooogle at the
    bottom of the google page?  I just realized that if the site I am
    looking for doesn't come up on the first page I refine the search
    terms.  Most of the time don't even scroll down, if it isn't visible 
    on the screen, I re-search.

    I just realized that I rarely go the the second page because I just
    did it today and it felt weird.



    --
    Share and Enjoy
    Ben
    _______________________________________________ 
    grlug mailing list
    grlug at grlug.org
    http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug 



  !DSPAM:47348b89153491607216659! 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  grlug mailing list
  grlug at grlug.org
  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

  !DSPAM:47348b89153491607216659!
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From clamrock at nmtdie.com  Fri Nov  9 11:44:20 2007
From: clamrock at nmtdie.com (Chris Lamrock)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:44:20 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Google Question
References: 
	<1fa63b160711090831n5f095446sf655bf3dc30e5b24@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00bc01c822ef$c6ad3f70$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>

I must suck at searching because I usually make it 3 or 4 o's deep before I'm happy...

On a side note my new search tactic for obscure things is to do an image search - scan for something similar to what I'm looking for and go from there...  This worked great just the other day when I was researching balancing robots - I had seen a particular robot that balanced on a ball but for the life of me couldn't remember where... with an image search I could see a page robot pics before having to dive into a website...  The 1st page displayed a pic of the exact robot I was interested in...




----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Aaron M. Brummitt 
  To: grlug at grlug.org 
  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 11:31 AM
  Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Google Question


  I only use the second page when looking for help with very specific error messages.  I guess at that point my search is about as narrow as its going to get.  Other than that, rarely do I hit any part of the oooooooogle.

  /AMB


  On Nov 9, 2007 11:16 AM, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:


    I'm just wondering if anyone actually uses the Goooooogle at the
    bottom of the google page?  I just realized that if the site I am
    looking for doesn't come up on the first page I refine the search
    terms.  Most of the time don't even scroll down, if it isn't visible 
    on the screen, I re-search.

    I just realized that I rarely go the the second page because I just
    did it today and it felt weird.



    --
    Share and Enjoy
    Ben
    _______________________________________________ 
    grlug mailing list
    grlug at grlug.org
    http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug 



  !DSPAM:47348b89153491607216659! 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  grlug mailing list
  grlug at grlug.org
  http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

  !DSPAM:47348b89153491607216659!
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From dnielsen0007 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  9 15:21:59 2007
From: dnielsen0007 at yahoo.com (dennis nielsen)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:21:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [GRLUG] white list for K-3rd grade
Message-ID: <746475.51188.qm@web58110.mail.re3.yahoo.com>


I have a lab for K-3rd grade students. I would like to create a white list of websites or specific webpages for each grade level, very limited access. I am not a computer technician, so it has to be simple. I have looked for open source solutions, but with no luck. Any suggestions?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
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From adderd at kkmfg.com  Fri Nov  9 17:04:08 2007
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:04:08 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] white list for K-3rd grade
In-Reply-To: <746475.51188.qm@web58110.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <746475.51188.qm@web58110.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4734D958.8040504@kkmfg.com>

This very topic was just brought up a few days ago. If you are using 
linux you could just add the relevant websites to view into the hosts 
file. Actually, in windows you can do the same thing. It's at 
c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc\hosts. Either way remove any DNS server 
entries so that the machine can only lookup the domains you've specified.

The problem with either is that you will essentially only have one 
access level. It's simple and easy though.

You could use squid to do website filtering and block all but an 
approved list. It would probably even be possible to have multiple 
access levels. But, it'll be a little more involved to setup too.

Anyway, you might search messages from this group for a few days back 
for the "Web filter for kids" topic.

dennis nielsen wrote:
>
>
> I have a lab for K-3rd grade students. I would like to create a white 
> list of websites or specific webpages for each grade level, very 
> limited access. I am not a computer technician, so it has to be 
> simple. I have looked for open source solutions, but with no luck. Any 
> suggestions?
>
>


From dagda at pathwaynet.com  Fri Nov  9 16:25:35 2007
From: dagda at pathwaynet.com (dagda at pathwaynet.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:25:35 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] white list for K-3rd grade
Message-ID: <380-220071159212535133@M2W025.mail2web.com>

Do you currently use a proxy?  You could control access via DNS, but they
could get around it by using the IP addresses.

Original Message:
-----------------
From: dennis nielsen dnielsen0007 at yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:21:59 -0800 (PST)
To: grlug at grlug.org
Subject: [GRLUG] white list for K-3rd grade



I have a lab for K-3rd grade students. I would like to create a white list
of websites or specific webpages for each grade level, very limited access.
I am not a computer technician, so it has to be simple. I have looked for
open source solutions, but with no luck. Any suggestions?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology -
http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE



From adderd at kkmfg.com  Fri Nov  9 17:34:11 2007
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:34:11 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] white list for K-3rd grade
In-Reply-To: <380-220071159212535133@M2W025.mail2web.com>
References: <380-220071159212535133@M2W025.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <4734E063.6010705@kkmfg.com>

dagda at pathwaynet.com wrote:
> Do you currently use a proxy?  You could control access via DNS, but they
> could get around it by using the IP addresses.
>
>
>   

Yeah you know those gol' durn 7 year olds! They're always hacking around 
stuff. Seriously, I doubt that K-3 students have the skills to even 
hardly know what an IP address is let alone use or remember them.


From radiodurans at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  9 20:41:01 2007
From: radiodurans at yahoo.com (John Harig)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:41:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
Message-ID: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

when is the next one?

From darth_linux at ameritech.net  Fri Nov  9 23:31:01 2007
From: darth_linux at ameritech.net (eah)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 23:31:01 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
In-Reply-To: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>

On Friday 09 November 2007 20:41:01 pm John Harig wrote:
> when is the next one?
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

yeah! fedora8 is out! com'mon people! 

From billcreswell at gmail.com  Sat Nov 10 18:29:32 2007
From: billcreswell at gmail.com (Bill Creswell)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:29:32 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Editors
In-Reply-To: <4731387E.5040203@brondsema.net>
References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com>
	<4731387E.5040203@brondsema.net>
Message-ID: <52b088230711101529t4101b2ccjb4c0476ba9cdf74b@mail.gmail.com>

I use Scite, on Linux, but I use Notepad+ on windows, built on Scintilla.

On 11/6/07, Dave Brondsema  wrote:
>
> SciTE (http://scintilla.org/SciTE.html) in Windows and Linux for nearly
> everything.. its simple, fast, and has syntax highlighting for many
> languages.
>
> For bigger PHP or Java projects (or files I'm working a lot on) I use
> Eclipse.  It does PHP pretty well (e.g. inline content assist) with the
> right extensions.
>
> Justin Denick wrote:
> > All this jazz about writing got me thinking about programming practice
> > and coding styles
> >
> > What about you?
> > How do you code?
> > What's your favorite editor.
> > I like Kate. Simple, fast, opens remote files, great syntax
> > highlighting, though I wish it would utilize the html tag completion
> > that we see in Quanta.
> > I've installed Eclipse, but found it to be more difficult than it was
> > worth, cause everything revolves around java.
> > I tried Bluefish, but I didn't like that one either. Too much overhead.
> > I used to use vim exclusively, but I like having the ability to scroll,
> > and I don't get that with vim.
> >
> > --
> > In vino veritas.
> >         [In wine there is truth.]
> >                 -- Pliny
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>
> --
> Dave Brondsema : dave at brondsema.net
> http://www.brondsema.net : personal
> http://www.splike.com : programming
>                <><
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>


-- 
billcreswell.wordpress.com
billcreswell.com
grcomputerworks.com

http://billcreswell.wordpress.com/category/captioned-movie-trailers/
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From zach.dennis at gmail.com  Sun Nov 11 12:08:39 2007
From: zach.dennis at gmail.com (Zach Dennis)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:08:39 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Editors
In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81e08d920711020540j549d259nb49e95fb04138e13@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85d99afe0711110908l3cfac14fj1241edbbe497a8d0@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 2, 2007 7:40 AM, Justin Denick  wrote:

> All this jazz about writing got me thinking about programming practice and
> coding styles
>
> What about you?
> How do you code?


I prefer to pair on production code for a customer, but I will often go solo
on personal projects or exploratory efforts.


>
> What's your favorite editor.


I prefer Eclipse for java development.
I used to prefer emacs for all other development.
Now that I've learned vim I can say that I enjoy a lot of the succinctness
of vim's commands compared to Emacs, although Emacs has better split buffer
support then vim.
And now that I own a Mac I will say that TextMate by far beats emacs and
vim. It doesn't have all of the features but it's bundle editor and file
navigation are far superior and far more useful then all of the additional
features of emacs and vim. Of course it's all IMO.

If Emacs or Vim would incorporate textmate like functionality for file
navigation then I think they would probably beat out Textmate in my books,

Zach Dennis
http://www.continuousthinking.com
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From tehpopa at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 00:56:26 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:56:26 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
In-Reply-To: <200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: 

Fedora 8? I saw it and ALMOST downloaded it. I hate to say it but I've
become a super Ubuntu supporter. I've run the gamut over the last few years
from Redhat 6, to Debian, over to Suse, then gentoo, then I just stopped
using Linux altogether. Then Digg started linking Ubuntu all the time and I
got hooked. I'm back to Windows now for one single reason. Ventrilo, a
windows app that _won't_ run under wine properly. I would like to get it
running properly again on my Dell XPS gen2, so I'd be game for installing
fed8 to try it out.

On Nov 9, 2007 11:31 PM, eah  wrote:

> On Friday 09 November 2007 20:41:01 pm John Harig wrote:
> > when is the next one?
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> yeah! fedora8 is out! com'mon people!
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From brousch at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 07:35:21 2007
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:35:21 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
In-Reply-To: 
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
Message-ID: 

What are you using for email? The two emails I've seen from you have been
seriously messed up like this. I'm using Gmail.

On Nov 12, 2007 12:56 AM, Justin Popa  wrote:

> Fedora 8? I saw it and ALMOST downloaded it. I hate to say it but I've
> become a super Ubuntu supporter. I've run the gamut over the last few
> years from Redhat 6, to Debian, over to Suse, then gentoo, then I just
> stopped using Linux altogether. Then Digg started linking Ubuntu all the
> time and I got hooked. I'm back to Windows now for one single reason.
> Ventrilo, a windows app that _won't_ run under wine properly. I would
> like to get it running properly again on my Dell XPS gen2, so I'd be
> game for installing fed8 to try it out.
> 

On Nov 9, 2007 11:31 PM, eah
> <darth_linux at ameritech.net>
> wrote:

> 
 class="Wj3C7c">On Friday 09 November 2007 20:41:01 pm John Harig
> wrote:
> when is the next one?
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing
> list
> 
> grlug at grlug.org
> 
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

yeah!
> fedora8 is out! com'mon people!
> 
 class="Wj3C7c">_______________________________________________
grlug
> mailing list
grlug at grlug.org
 href="http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug"
> target="_blank">
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 


>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From dond at standalelumber.com  Mon Nov 12 07:52:42 2007
From: dond at standalelumber.com (Don Wood)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:52:42 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
In-Reply-To: 
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	
	<200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>	
		
	
Message-ID: <1194871962.6570.8.camel@donw-laptop>

It came out alright on my Evolution.


On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 07:35 -0500, Ben Rousch wrote:
> What are you using for email? The two emails I've seen from you have
> been seriously messed up like this. I'm using Gmail.
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 12, 2007 12:56 AM, Justin Popa  wrote:
> 
>         
>         Fedora 8? I saw it and ALMOST downloaded it. I hate to say it
>         but I've become a super Ubuntu supporter. I've run the
>         gamut over the last few years from Redhat 6, to Debian, over
>         to Suse, then gentoo, then I just stopped using Linux
>         altogether. Then Digg started linking Ubuntu all the time and
>         I got hooked. I'm back to Windows now for one single
>         reason. Ventrilo, a windows app that _won't_ run under
>         wine properly. I would like to get it running properly again
>         on my Dell XPS gen2, so I'd be game for installing fed8 to
>         try it out. 
>         

On Nov 9, 2007
>         11:31 PM, eah <
>         darth_linux at ameritech.net> wrote:
         class="gmail_quote" DEFANGED_style="border-left: 1px solid
>         rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:
>         1ex;">
>         
On Friday 09 November 2007 20:41:01 pm John Harig wrote:
> when is the next one?
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> 
>         grlug at grlug.org
>          href="http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug"
>         target="_blank">http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

yeah! fedora8 is out! com'mon people!
>         
_______________________________________________
grlug mailing list
grlug at grlug.org

>         http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


>         
>         _______________________________________________
>         grlug mailing list
>         grlug at grlug.org
>         http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


From justin.denick at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 08:34:01 2007
From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:34:01 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
In-Reply-To: <1194871962.6570.8.camel@donw-laptop>
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
	
	<1194871962.6570.8.camel@donw-laptop>
Message-ID: <81e08d920711120534o22687d6cr8d3c16a4dac13381@mail.gmail.com>

Looks pretty messed up to me too, and I use Gmail as well.

On Nov 12, 2007 7:52 AM, Don Wood  wrote:

> It came out alright on my Evolution.
>
>
> On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 07:35 -0500, Ben Rousch wrote:
> > What are you using for email? The two emails I've seen from you have
> > been seriously messed up like this. I'm using Gmail.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 12, 2007 12:56 AM, Justin Popa  wrote:
> >
> >
> >         Fedora 8? I saw it and ALMOST downloaded it. I hate to say it
> >         but I've become a super Ubuntu supporter. I've run the
> >         gamut over the last few years from Redhat 6, to Debian, over
> >         to Suse, then gentoo, then I just stopped using Linux
> >         altogether. Then Digg started linking Ubuntu all the time and
> >         I got hooked. I'm back to Windows now for one single
> >         reason. Ventrilo, a windows app that _won't_ run under
> >         wine properly. I would like to get it running properly again
> >         on my Dell XPS gen2, so I'd be game for installing fed8 to
> >         try it out.
> >         

On Nov 9, 2007
> >         11:31 PM, eah <
> >         darth_linux at ameritech.net> wrote:
 >         class="gmail_quote" DEFANGED_style="border-left: 1px solid
> >         rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:
> >         1ex;">
> >
> 
 class="Wj3C7c">On Friday 09 November 2007 20:41:01 pm John Harig
> wrote:
> when is the next one?
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing
> list
> 
> >         grlug at grlug.org
>  >         href="http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug"
> >         target="_blank">
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

yeah!
> fedora8 is out! com'mon people!
> >
> 
 class="Wj3C7c">_______________________________________________
grlug
> mailing list
grlug at grlug.org
 href="http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug"
> target="_blank">
> >         http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> 


> >
> >         _______________________________________________
> >         grlug mailing list
> >         grlug at grlug.org
> >         http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
In vino veritas.
       [In wine there is truth.]
               -- Pliny
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From jtr at jrichards.org  Mon Nov 12 08:55:54 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:55:54 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711120534o22687d6cr8d3c16a4dac13381@mail.gmail.com>
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
	
	<1194871962.6570.8.camel@donw-laptop>
	<81e08d920711120534o22687d6cr8d3c16a4dac13381@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071112135554.GA2737@jrichards.org>

On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 08:34:01AM -0500, Justin Denick wrote:
> Looks pretty messed up to me too, and I use Gmail as well.
> 
> On Nov 12, 2007 7:52 AM, Don Wood  wrote:
> 
> > It came out alright on my Evolution.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 07:35 -0500, Ben Rousch wrote:
> > > What are you using for email? The two emails I've seen from you have
> > > been seriously messed up like this. I'm using Gmail.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Nov 12, 2007 12:56 AM, Justin Popa  wrote:
> > >         Fedora 8? I saw it and ALMOST downloaded it. I hate to say it
> > >         but I've become a super Ubuntu supporter. I've run the
> > >         gamut over the last few years from Redhat 6, to Debian, over
> > >         to Suse, then gentoo, then I just stopped using Linux
> > >         altogether. Then Digg started linking Ubuntu all the time and
> > >         I got hooked. I'm back to Windows now for one single
> > >         reason. Ventrilo, a windows app that _won't_ run under
> > >         wine properly. I would like to get it running properly again
> > >         on my Dell XPS gen2, so I'd be game for installing fed8 to
> > >         try it out.
> > >         

On Nov 9, 2007
> > >         11:31 PM, eah <
> > >         darth_linux at ameritech.net> wrote:
 > >         class="gmail_quote" DEFANGED_style="border-left: 1px solid
> > >         rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:
> > >         1ex;">
> > >
[snip]

Mutt rendered it correctly.  Well, except all the responses somehow came at
the top of the quoted text rather than at the bottom of the quoted text where
we all know it should go.  Other than that serious mis-render, mutt rendered
the message just fine.

;-)
-- 
john-thomas
------
Thank you for sending me a copy of your book - I'll waste no time in
reading it.
Moses Hadas, teacher and author (1900-1966)

From ben at eavey.com  Mon Nov 12 09:08:53 2007
From: ben at eavey.com (Benjamin Eavey)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:08:53 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Ventrilo
In-Reply-To: 
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
Message-ID: <47385E75.50208@eavey.com>

Justin Popa wrote:
> I'm back to Windows now for one single reason. Ventrilo, a
> windows app that _won't_ run under wine properly. I would like to get it
> running properly again on my Dell XPS gen2, so I'd be game for installing
> fed8 to try it out.

I'm sure you don't mean the Ventrilo here:

http://www.ventrilo.com

...right?  There's a Linux version.  No need to mess with Wine.  Unless 
you're talking about some other "Ventrilo"...

-Ben

From flanderb at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 09:12:03 2007
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:12:03 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Ventrilo
In-Reply-To: <47385E75.50208@eavey.com>
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
	<47385E75.50208@eavey.com>
Message-ID: 

If you look closely at the download page the Linux client is "in development"

On Nov 12, 2007 9:08 AM, Benjamin Eavey  wrote:
> Justin Popa wrote:
> > I'm back to Windows now for one single reason. Ventrilo, a
> > windows app that _won't_ run under wine properly. I would like to get it
> > running properly again on my Dell XPS gen2, so I'd be game for installing
> > fed8 to try it out.
>
> I'm sure you don't mean the Ventrilo here:
>
> http://www.ventrilo.com
>
> ...right?  There's a Linux version.  No need to mess with Wine.  Unless
> you're talking about some other "Ventrilo"...
>
> -Ben
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From carlushenry at sagetech-llc.com  Mon Nov 12 09:32:29 2007
From: carlushenry at sagetech-llc.com (Carlus Henry)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:32:29 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Editors
Message-ID: 

I am also a big fan of Vim and Eclipse as well.  One of the biggest
productivity drains I have found is reliance on the mouse.  If you think
about every time you have to consciously move your hand from the keyboard in
order to make an application do something using the mouse, you will see how
unproductive this is.

So with both Eclipse and Vim, I have decided that I have to learn all of the
shortcuts necessary in order to get detox from using the mouse.

With Vim, Zach mentioned the file navigation.  The way that I accomplish the
file navigation without the mouse in Vim is through the ":Explore" command.
This will change Vim so that it is in the file browser mode.  Another neat
trick is to use the ":Sexplore" which will split your Vim session, keeping
open the file you are currently editing and open another editor / browser to
browse the file system.  Of course with both of these commands, you are able
to put in the starting location of where you want to browse files.

In Eclipse, I am a huge fan of the shortcuts.  The two main ones that relate
to this discussion are the Ctrl+Shift+R, which will open a Resource browser
that will allow you to start typing the file that you want to bring up in
the editor.  This works great, because as you are typing the list of search
matches slowly begin to dwindle, until you are left with the one of your
choice.  The other shortcut is the Ctrl+Shift+T, which is specifically used
for searching across types.  The best thing of all has to be that you can
use '*' in order to match as well.

Thanks
Carlus

-- 
Carlus Henry
SageTech L.L.C.
616.295.0149 cell
www.sagetech-llc.com | http://jdcarlflip.blogspot.com/
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From ben at eavey.com  Mon Nov 12 09:45:02 2007
From: ben at eavey.com (Benjamin Eavey)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:45:02 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Ventrilo
In-Reply-To: 
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>		<47385E75.50208@eavey.com>
	
Message-ID: <473866EE.4030401@eavey.com>

Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> If you look closely at the download page the Linux client is "in development"

Ah, yes, I see.  I was looking at the server piece, which is available. 
  You're right, the client piece isn't there.

I see there's a forum post from 2005 announcing the "pending release" of 
the Linux client.  Wow.  Sad.

-Ben

From tehpopa at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 10:24:16 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:24:16 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
In-Reply-To: <20071112135554.GA2737@jrichards.org>
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
	
	<1194871962.6570.8.camel@donw-laptop>
	<81e08d920711120534o22687d6cr8d3c16a4dac13381@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071112135554.GA2737@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: 

That's very odd. I use gmail's web client. I've heard that once before here
and changed to UTF-8 for outgoing. I've now switched back to default so
please let me know how it works. Thanks

On Nov 12, 2007 8:55 AM, john-thomas richards  wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 08:34:01AM -0500, Justin Denick wrote:
> > Looks pretty messed up to me too, and I use Gmail as well.
> >
> > On Nov 12, 2007 7:52 AM, Don Wood  wrote:
> >
> > > It came out alright on my Evolution.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 07:35 -0500, Ben Rousch wrote:
> > > > What are you using for email? The two emails I've seen from you have
> > > > been seriously messed up like this. I'm using Gmail.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 12, 2007 12:56 AM, Justin Popa  wrote:
> > > >         Fedora 8? I saw it and ALMOST downloaded it. I hate to say
> it
> > > >         but I've become a super Ubuntu supporter. I've run
> the
> > > >         gamut over the last few years from Redhat 6, to Debian, over
> > > >         to Suse, then gentoo, then I just stopped using Linux
> > > >         altogether. Then Digg started linking Ubuntu all the time
> and
> > > >         I got hooked. I'm back to Windows now for one single
> > > >         reason. Ventrilo, a windows app that _won't_ run under
> > > >         wine properly. I would like to get it running properly again
> > > >         on my Dell XPS gen2, so I'd be game for installing fed8
> to
> > > >         try it out.
> > > >         

On Nov 9, 2007
> > > >         11:31 PM, eah <
> > > >         darth_linux at ameritech.net> wrote:
 > > >         class="gmail_quote" DEFANGED_style="border-left: 1px solid
> > > >         rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:
> > > >         1ex;">
> > > >
> [snip]
>
> Mutt rendered it correctly.  Well, except all the responses somehow came
> at
> the top of the quoted text rather than at the bottom of the quoted text
> where
> we all know it should go.  Other than that serious mis-render, mutt
> rendered
> the message just fine.
>
> ;-)
> --
> john-thomas
> ------
> Thank you for sending me a copy of your book - I'll waste no time in
> reading it.
> Moses Hadas, teacher and author (1900-1966)
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From mikemol at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 10:27:50 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:27:50 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
In-Reply-To: 
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
	
	<1194871962.6570.8.camel@donw-laptop>
	<81e08d920711120534o22687d6cr8d3c16a4dac13381@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071112135554.GA2737@jrichards.org>
	
Message-ID: 

Looks fine now.

On Nov 12, 2007 10:24 AM, Justin Popa  wrote:
> That's very odd. I use gmail's web client. I've heard that once before here
> and changed to UTF-8 for outgoing. I've now switched back to default so
> please let me know how it works. Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Nov 12, 2007 8:55 AM, john-thomas richards  wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 08:34:01AM -0500, Justin Denick wrote:
> > > Looks pretty messed up to me too, and I use Gmail as well.
> > >
> > > On Nov 12, 2007 7:52 AM, Don Wood < dond at standalelumber.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > It came out alright on my Evolution.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 07:35 -0500, Ben Rousch wrote:
> > > > > What are you using for email? The two emails I've seen from you have
> > > > > been seriously messed up like this. I'm using Gmail.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 12:56 AM, Justin Popa < tehpopa at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >         Fedora 8? I saw it and ALMOST downloaded it. I hate to say
> it
> > > > >         but I've become a super Ubuntu supporter. I've run
> the
> > > > >         gamut over the last few years from Redhat 6, to Debian, over
> > > > >         to Suse, then gentoo, then I just stopped using Linux
> > > > >         altogether. Then Digg started linking Ubuntu all the time
> and
> > > > >         I got hooked. I'm back to Windows now for one single
> > > > >         reason. Ventrilo, a windows app that _won't_ run under
> > > > >         wine properly. I would like to get it running properly again
> > > > >         on my Dell XPS gen2, so I'd be game for installing fed8
> to
> > > > >         try it out.
> > > > >         

On Nov 9, 2007
> > > > >         11:31 PM, eah < href="mailto:darth_linux at ameritech.net">
> > > > >         darth_linux at ameritech.net> wrote:
 > > > >         class="gmail_quote" DEFANGED_style="border-left: 1px solid
> > > > >         rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:
> > > > >         1ex;">
> > > > >
> > [snip]
> >
> > Mutt rendered it correctly.  Well, except all the responses somehow came
> at
> > the top of the quoted text rather than at the bottom of the quoted text
> where
> > we all know it should go.  Other than that serious mis-render, mutt
> rendered
> > the message just fine.
> >
> > ;-)
> > --
> > john-thomas
> > ------
> > Thank you for sending me a copy of your book - I'll waste no time in
> > reading it.
> > Moses Hadas, teacher and author (1900-1966)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
:wq

From jjfoerch at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 12 11:32:32 2007
From: jjfoerch at earthlink.net (John J Foerch)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:32:32 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Editors
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <18232.32800.596443.367141@gargle.gargle.HOWL>

Carlus Henry writes:
 > With Vim, Zach mentioned the file navigation.  The way that I accomplish the
 > file navigation without the mouse in Vim is through the ":Explore" command.
 > This will change Vim so that it is in the file browser mode.  Another neat
 > trick is to use the ":Sexplore" which will split your Vim session, keeping
 > open the file you are currently editing and open another editor / browser to
 > browse the file system.  Of course with both of these commands, you are able
 > to put in the starting location of where you want to browse files.


Emacs also has several very nice find-file interfaces.  Ones worth
checking out are Ido, Dired, and Speedbar.  I use Ido almost
exclusively, but Dired if I want to keep some directories open in a
background buffer.  I haven't used Speedbar very much but it seems
nice.

--John

From topher at wcsg.org  Mon Nov 12 11:35:55 2007
From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:35:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [GRLUG] Editors
In-Reply-To: <18232.32800.596443.367141@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
References: 
	<18232.32800.596443.367141@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
Message-ID: 

> Emacs also has several very nice find-file interfaces.  Ones worth 
> checking out are Ido, Dired, and Speedbar.  I use Ido almost 
> exclusively, but Dired if I want to keep some directories open in a 
> background buffer.  I haven't used Speedbar very much but it seems nice.

I use bash as my file thinger for vim.

Topher
Manager of Internet Services
Cornerstone University Radio

------
You know, Hobbes, some days even my rocketship underpants don't help.
     -Calvin

From jjfoerch at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 12 12:48:12 2007
From: jjfoerch at earthlink.net (John J Foerch)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:48:12 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Editors
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<18232.32800.596443.367141@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
	
Message-ID: <18232.37340.284567.735106@gargle.gargle.HOWL>

Topher writes:
 > > Emacs also has several very nice find-file interfaces.  Ones worth 
 > > checking out are Ido, Dired, and Speedbar.  I use Ido almost 
 > > exclusively, but Dired if I want to keep some directories open in a 
 > > background buffer.  I haven't used Speedbar very much but it seems nice.
 > 
 > I use bash as my file thinger for vim.

Okay, that too.. plus Eshell.

--John

From brousch at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 13:15:33 2007
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:15:33 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
In-Reply-To: 
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
	
	<1194871962.6570.8.camel@donw-laptop>
	<81e08d920711120534o22687d6cr8d3c16a4dac13381@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071112135554.GA2737@jrichards.org>
	
Message-ID: 

It looks good now.

On Nov 12, 2007 10:24 AM, Justin Popa  wrote:

> That's very odd. I use gmail's web client. I've heard that once before
> here and changed to UTF-8 for outgoing. I've now switched back to default so
> please let me know how it works. Thanks
>
>
> On Nov 12, 2007 8:55 AM, john-thomas richards  wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 08:34:01AM -0500, Justin Denick wrote:
> > > Looks pretty messed up to me too, and I use Gmail as well.
> > >
> > > On Nov 12, 2007 7:52 AM, Don Wood < dond at standalelumber.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > It came out alright on my Evolution.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 07:35 -0500, Ben Rousch wrote:
> > > > > What are you using for email? The two emails I've seen from you
> > have
> > > > > been seriously messed up like this. I'm using Gmail.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 12:56 AM, Justin Popa < tehpopa at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >         Fedora 8? I saw it and ALMOST downloaded it. I hate to say
> > it
> > > > >         but I've become a super Ubuntu supporter. I've run
> > the
> > > > >         gamut over the last few years from Redhat 6, to Debian,
> > over
> > > > >         to Suse, then gentoo, then I just stopped using Linux
> > > > >         altogether. Then Digg started linking Ubuntu all the time
> > and
> > > > >         I got hooked. I'm back to Windows now for one single
> > > > >         reason. Ventrilo, a windows app that _won't_ run under
> > > > >         wine properly. I would like to get it running properly
> > again
> > > > >         on my Dell XPS gen2, so I'd be game for installing
> > fed8 to
> > > > >         try it out.
> > > > >         

On Nov 9,
> > 2007
> > > > >         11:31 PM, eah <
> > > > >         darth_linux at ameritech.net> wrote:
 > > > >         class="gmail_quote" DEFANGED_style="border-left: 1px solid
> > > > >         rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;
> > padding-left:
> > > > >         1ex;">
> > > > >
> > [snip]
> >
> > Mutt rendered it correctly.  Well, except all the responses somehow came
> > at
> > the top of the quoted text rather than at the bottom of the quoted text
> > where
> > we all know it should go.  Other than that serious mis-render, mutt
> > rendered
> > the message just fine.
> >
> > ;-)
> > --
> > john-thomas
> > ------
> > Thank you for sending me a copy of your book - I'll waste no time in
> > reading it.
> > Moses Hadas, teacher and author (1900-1966)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From darth_linux at ameritech.net  Mon Nov 12 20:29:43 2007
From: darth_linux at ameritech.net (eah)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:29:43 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] running kplayer or kaffeine crashes X
Message-ID: <200711122029.43537.darth_linux@ameritech.net>

hey all, 

if i try to play video using kaffeine or kplayer, fedora7 crashes x. 
any suggestions? 

thanks, 

eah (Eric Hartwell)  

From mikemol at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 20:54:43 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:54:43 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] running kplayer or kaffeine crashes X
In-Reply-To: <200711122029.43537.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
References: <200711122029.43537.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: 

Any video, or just videos of a particular codec?

On Nov 12, 2007 8:29 PM, eah  wrote:
> hey all,
>
> if i try to play video using kaffeine or kplayer, fedora7 crashes x.
> any suggestions?
>
> thanks,
>
> eah (Eric Hartwell)
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
:wq

From darth_linux at ameritech.net  Mon Nov 12 20:57:48 2007
From: darth_linux at ameritech.net (eah)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:57:48 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] running kplayer or kaffeine crashes X
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200711122029.43537.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
Message-ID: <200711122057.48781.darth_linux@ameritech.net>

On Monday 12 November 2007 20:54:43 pm Michael Mol wrote:
> Any video, or just videos of a particular codec?
>
> On Nov 12, 2007 8:29 PM, eah  wrote:
> > hey all,
> >
> > if i try to play video using kaffeine or kplayer, fedora7 crashes x.
> > any suggestions?
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > eah (Eric Hartwell)
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

i tried an avi, wmv, and mpeg. i don't think they all used the same codec.

From darth_linux at ameritech.net  Mon Nov 12 21:03:35 2007
From: darth_linux at ameritech.net (eah)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:03:35 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] running kplayer or kaffeine crashes X
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200711122029.43537.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
Message-ID: <200711122103.35532.darth_linux@ameritech.net>

On Monday 12 November 2007 20:54:43 pm Michael Mol wrote:
> Any video, or just videos of a particular codec?
>
> On Nov 12, 2007 8:29 PM, eah  wrote:
> > hey all,
> >
> > if i try to play video using kaffeine or kplayer, fedora7 crashes x.
> > any suggestions?
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > eah (Eric Hartwell)
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

does this data from /var/log/messages help? (xorg.conf attached) 
Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] PCIe has already been initialized. 
Reinitializing ...
Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] GART Table is not in FRAME_BUFFER 
range
Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] Reserve Block - 0 offset =  0X0 
length = 0X40000
Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] Reserve Block - 1 offset =  
0X7ff5000 length = 0Xb000
Nov 12 20:27:18 mobiledarth kdm[2380]: X server for display :0 terminated 
unexpectedly

eah 
-------------- next part --------------

# Xorg configuration created by system-config-display

Section "ServerLayout"
	Identifier     "single head configuration"
	Screen      0  "Screen0" 0 0
	Screen         "aticonfig-Screen[1]" Below "Screen0"
	InputDevice    "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard"
	InputDevice    "Synaptics" "CorePointer"
EndSection

Section "Files"
	ModulePath   "/usr/lib64/xorg/modules"
EndSection

Section "Module"
EndSection

Section "ServerFlags"
	Option	    "AIGLX" "on"
EndSection

Section "InputDevice"
	Identifier  "Keyboard0"
	Driver      "kbd"
	Option	    "XkbModel" "pc105"
	Option	    "XkbLayout" "us"
EndSection

Section "InputDevice"
	Identifier  "Synaptics"
	Driver      "synaptics"
	Option	    "Device" "/dev/input/mice"
	Option	    "Protocol" "auto-dev"
	Option	    "Emulate3Buttons" "yes"
EndSection

Section "Monitor"
	Identifier   "aticonfig-Monitor[1]"
	Option	    "VendorName" "ATI Proprietary Driver"
	Option	    "ModelName" "Generic Autodetecting Monitor"
	Option	    "DPMS" "true"
EndSection

Section "Device"
	Identifier  "Videocard0"
	Driver      "fglrx"
	Option	    "OpenGLOverlay" "off"
	Option	    "VideoOverlay" "on"
	BusID       "PCI:1:5:0"
EndSection

Section "Device"
	Identifier  "aticonfig-Device[1]"
	Driver      "fglrx"
	BusID       "PCI:1:5:0"
	Screen      1
EndSection

Section "Screen"
	Identifier "Screen0"
	Device     "Videocard0"
	DefaultDepth     24
	SubSection "Display"
		Viewport   0 0
		Depth     24
	EndSubSection
EndSection

Section "Screen"
	Identifier "aticonfig-Screen[1]"
	Device     "aticonfig-Device[1]"
	Monitor    "aticonfig-Monitor[1]"
	DefaultDepth     24
	SubSection "Display"
		Viewport   0 0
		Depth     24
	EndSubSection
EndSection

Section "Extensions"
	Option	    "Composite" "Enable"
EndSection


From mikemol at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 21:17:44 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:17:44 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] running kplayer or kaffeine crashes X
In-Reply-To: <200711122103.35532.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
References: <200711122029.43537.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
	<200711122103.35532.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 12, 2007 9:03 PM, eah  wrote:
> On Monday 12 November 2007 20:54:43 pm Michael Mol wrote:
>
> > Any video, or just videos of a particular codec?
> >
> > On Nov 12, 2007 8:29 PM, eah  wrote:
> > > hey all,
> > >
> > > if i try to play video using kaffeine or kplayer, fedora7 crashes x.
> > > any suggestions?
> > >
> > > thanks,

[snip]

>
> does this data from /var/log/messages help? (xorg.conf attached)
> Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] PCIe has already been initialized.
> Reinitializing ...
> Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] GART Table is not in FRAME_BUFFER
> range
> Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] Reserve Block - 0 offset =  0X0
> length = 0X40000
> Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] Reserve Block - 1 offset =
> 0X7ff5000 length = 0Xb000
> Nov 12 20:27:18 mobiledarth kdm[2380]: X server for display :0 terminated
> unexpectedly

Did you kill X manually (i.e. through Ctrl-Alt-Backspace or via a kill
command), or did it die on its own?  There's a 78 second gap between
the last fglrx log and the kdm alert.  If everything happened
automatically, I wouldn't necessarily blame fglrx.

And, you're right, avi, wmv and mpg files would use different codecs.
mpg and wmv would certainly be different.

If you don't have it already, install mplayer.  It has a command-line
option that lets you control how video gets put on the screen.  You
can select between straight X11, XVideo (xv), a couple OpenGL
approaches, and even AALib.  If you can determine which output mode
crashes X, you'll have a better idea which subsystem is to blame.

To get a list list of the video output modes you can try, type:
mplayer -vo help


>
> eah
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
:wq

From mikemol at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 21:19:26 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:19:26 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] running kplayer or kaffeine crashes X
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200711122029.43537.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
	<200711122103.35532.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 12, 2007 9:17 PM, Michael Mol  wrote:
> On Nov 12, 2007 9:03 PM, eah  wrote:
> > On Monday 12 November 2007 20:54:43 pm Michael Mol wrote:
> >
> > > Any video, or just videos of a particular codec?
> > >
> > > On Nov 12, 2007 8:29 PM, eah  wrote:
> > > > hey all,
> > > >
> > > > if i try to play video using kaffeine or kplayer, fedora7 crashes x.
> > > > any suggestions?
> > > >
> > > > thanks,
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> > does this data from /var/log/messages help? (xorg.conf attached)
> > Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] PCIe has already been initialized.
> > Reinitializing ...
> > Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] GART Table is not in FRAME_BUFFER
> > range
> > Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] Reserve Block - 0 offset =  0X0
> > length = 0X40000
> > Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] Reserve Block - 1 offset =
> > 0X7ff5000 length = 0Xb000
> > Nov 12 20:27:18 mobiledarth kdm[2380]: X server for display :0 terminated
> > unexpectedly
>
> Did you kill X manually (i.e. through Ctrl-Alt-Backspace or via a kill
> command), or did it die on its own?  There's a 78 second gap between
> the last fglrx log and the kdm alert.  If everything happened
> automatically, I wouldn't necessarily blame fglrx.
>
> And, you're right, avi, wmv and mpg files would use different codecs.
> mpg and wmv would certainly be different.
>
> If you don't have it already, install mplayer.  It has a command-line
> option that lets you control how video gets put on the screen.  You
> can select between straight X11, XVideo (xv), a couple OpenGL
> approaches, and even AALib.  If you can determine which output mode
> crashes X, you'll have a better idea which subsystem is to blame.
>
> To get a list list of the video output modes you can try, type:
> mplayer -vo help
>
>
> >
> > eah

Also, I'm active on #grlug right now, if you've got a separate machine
with an IRC client.

-- 
:wq

From darth_linux at ameritech.net  Mon Nov 12 21:26:10 2007
From: darth_linux at ameritech.net (eah)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:26:10 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] running kplayer or kaffeine crashes X
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200711122029.43537.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
Message-ID: <200711122126.10314.darth_linux@ameritech.net>

On Monday 12 November 2007 20:54:43 pm Michael Mol wrote:
> Any video, or just videos of a particular codec?
>
> On Nov 12, 2007 8:29 PM, eah  wrote:
> > hey all,
> >
> > if i try to play video using kaffeine or kplayer, fedora7 crashes x.
> > any suggestions?
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > eah (Eric Hartwell)
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

yeah. i just tried a .mov file from Apple's Mac/PC ads. X died. codecs are 
probably not the cause. it was working yesterday.... 

eah 

From darth_linux at ameritech.net  Mon Nov 12 21:44:14 2007
From: darth_linux at ameritech.net (eah)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:44:14 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] running kplayer or kaffeine crashes X
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200711122029.43537.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
	
Message-ID: <200711122144.14685.darth_linux@ameritech.net>

On Monday 12 November 2007 21:19:26 pm Michael Mol wrote:
> On Nov 12, 2007 9:17 PM, Michael Mol  wrote:
> > On Nov 12, 2007 9:03 PM, eah  wrote:
> > > On Monday 12 November 2007 20:54:43 pm Michael Mol wrote:
> > > > Any video, or just videos of a particular codec?
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 12, 2007 8:29 PM, eah  wrote:
> > > > > hey all,
> > > > >
> > > > > if i try to play video using kaffeine or kplayer, fedora7 crashes
> > > > > x. any suggestions?
> > > > >
> > > > > thanks,
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > does this data from /var/log/messages help? (xorg.conf attached)
> > > Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] PCIe has already been
> > > initialized. Reinitializing ...
> > > Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] GART Table is not in
> > > FRAME_BUFFER range
> > > Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] Reserve Block - 0 offset = 
> > > 0X0 length = 0X40000
> > > Nov 12 20:26:00 mobiledarth kernel: [fglrx] Reserve Block - 1 offset =
> > > 0X7ff5000 length = 0Xb000
> > > Nov 12 20:27:18 mobiledarth kdm[2380]: X server for display :0
> > > terminated unexpectedly
> >
> > Did you kill X manually (i.e. through Ctrl-Alt-Backspace or via a kill
> > command), or did it die on its own?  There's a 78 second gap between
> > the last fglrx log and the kdm alert.  If everything happened
> > automatically, I wouldn't necessarily blame fglrx.
> >
> > And, you're right, avi, wmv and mpg files would use different codecs.
> > mpg and wmv would certainly be different.
> >
> > If you don't have it already, install mplayer.  It has a command-line
> > option that lets you control how video gets put on the screen.  You
> > can select between straight X11, XVideo (xv), a couple OpenGL
> > approaches, and even AALib.  If you can determine which output mode
> > crashes X, you'll have a better idea which subsystem is to blame.
> >
> > To get a list list of the video output modes you can try, type:
> > mplayer -vo help
> >
> > > eah
>
> Also, I'm active on #grlug right now, if you've got a separate machine
> with an IRC client.

ok. xv is out. but opengl works fine. coupled with oss audio, files play fine. 
gonna play with it for a while (ie watching all my videos :-) ) 

thanks!

From thisboyiscrazy at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 08:49:29 2007
From: thisboyiscrazy at gmail.com (Joe Vanderstelt)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:49:29 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
In-Reply-To: 
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200711092331.01390.darth_linux@ameritech.net>
	
	
	<1194871962.6570.8.camel@donw-laptop>
	<81e08d920711120534o22687d6cr8d3c16a4dac13381@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071112135554.GA2737@jrichards.org>
	
	
Message-ID: 

So when is the next meeting?

On Nov 12, 2007 1:15 PM, Ben Rousch  wrote:
> It looks good now.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 12, 2007 10:24 AM, Justin Popa  wrote:
> > That's very odd. I use gmail's web client. I've heard that once before
> here and changed to UTF-8 for outgoing. I've now switched back to default so
> please let me know how it works. Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 12, 2007 8:55 AM, john-thomas richards  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 08:34:01AM -0500, Justin Denick wrote:
> > > > Looks pretty messed up to me too, and I use Gmail as well.
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 12, 2007 7:52 AM, Don Wood < dond at standalelumber.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > It came out alright on my Evolution.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 07:35 -0500, Ben Rousch wrote:
> > > > > > What are you using for email? The two emails I've seen from you
> have
> > > > > > been seriously messed up like this. I'm using Gmail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Nov 12, 2007 12:56 AM, Justin Popa < tehpopa at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >         Fedora 8? I saw it and ALMOST downloaded it. I hate to say
> it
> > > > > >         but I've become a super Ubuntu supporter. I've run
> the
> > > > > >         gamut over the last few years from Redhat 6, to Debian,
> over
> > > > > >         to Suse, then gentoo, then I just stopped using Linux
> > > > > >         altogether. Then Digg started linking Ubuntu all the time
> and
> > > > > >         I got hooked. I'm back to Windows now for one single
> > > > > >         reason. Ventrilo, a windows app that _won't_ run under
> > > > > >         wine properly. I would like to get it running properly
> again
> > > > > >         on my Dell XPS gen2, so I'd be game for installing
> fed8 to
> > > > > >         try it out.
> > > > > >         

On Nov 9,
> 2007
> > > > > >         11:31 PM, eah < href="mailto:darth_linux at ameritech.net">
> > > > > >         darth_linux at ameritech.net> wrote:
 > > > > >         class="gmail_quote" DEFANGED_style="border-left: 1px solid
> > > > > >         rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;
> padding-left:
> > > > > >         1ex;">
> > > > > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > Mutt rendered it correctly.  Well, except all the responses somehow came
> at
> > > the top of the quoted text rather than at the bottom of the quoted text
> where
> > > we all know it should go.  Other than that serious mis-render, mutt
> rendered
> > > the message just fine.
> > >
> > > ;-)
> > > --
> > > john-thomas
> > > ------
> > > Thank you for sending me a copy of your book - I'll waste no time in
> > > reading it.
> > > Moses Hadas, teacher and author (1900-1966)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > grlug mailing list
> > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

From mzuverink at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 08:57:42 2007
From: mzuverink at gmail.com (Marc Zuverink)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:57:42 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
In-Reply-To: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4739AD56.9000004@gmail.com>

John Harig wrote:
> when is the next one?
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>   
I had a meeting in Holland on Saturday, which no one from GRLUG showed 
up at, despite my mentioning it at the last meeting and posting it on 
the mailing list.

-- 
Marc Zuverink 

"Software is like sex: it's better when it's free."
					-Linus Torvalds


From mailtonick at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 09:21:36 2007
From: mailtonick at gmail.com (Nick)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:21:36 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
In-Reply-To: <4739AD56.9000004@gmail.com>
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4739AD56.9000004@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30bcf8860711130621ncc5154fu6732471d40ad42f6@mail.gmail.com>

I must've missed the posting.  I planned to attend the Holland one.

On Nov 13, 2007 8:57 AM, Marc Zuverink  wrote:

> John Harig wrote:
> > when is the next one?
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
> >
> I had a meeting in Holland on Saturday, which no one from GRLUG showed
> up at, despite my mentioning it at the last meeting and posting it on
> the mailing list.
>
> --
> Marc Zuverink 
>
> "Software is like sex: it's better when it's free."
>                                        -Linus Torvalds
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From thisboyiscrazy at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 12:00:01 2007
From: thisboyiscrazy at gmail.com (Joe Vanderstelt)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:00:01 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] meeting
In-Reply-To: <30bcf8860711130621ncc5154fu6732471d40ad42f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <572865.40403.qm@web80405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4739AD56.9000004@gmail.com>
	<30bcf8860711130621ncc5154fu6732471d40ad42f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

I must have missed the posting also, I was planning on attending. :-(

On Nov 13, 2007 9:21 AM, Nick  wrote:
> I must've missed the posting.  I planned to attend the Holland one.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 13, 2007 8:57 AM, Marc Zuverink  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > John Harig wrote:
> > > when is the next one?
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > grlug mailing list
> > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > >
> > >
> > I had a meeting in Holland on Saturday, which no one from GRLUG showed
> > up at, despite my mentioning it at the last meeting and posting it on
> > the mailing list.
> >
> > --
> > Marc Zuverink 
> >
> > "Software is like sex: it's better when it's free."
> >                                        -Linus Torvalds
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

From flanderb at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 22:50:48 2007
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:50:48 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] OpenDNS
Message-ID: 

Hi guys,
I switched to the openDNS servers this weekend because Comcast was
flaking again and I now have a print screen of the weird Google maps
issues I wrote about last week.

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/3646/snapshot1sl0.png

Notice that the status bar says "Waiting for guide.opendns.com..."
OpenDNS seems to time out very fast, and if it can't resolve the
address it goes to guide.opendns.com which is a Google like page with
a list of possible sites I might want instead.  Invariably, the site I
am looking for (Google, netvibes etc) is on the top of the list and if
I click that link I go back to the same guide page.  Sometimes If I
click on it a bunch of times the site will load, most of the time I
have to go through OpenDNS's  "CacheCheck" page and the site will work
after this.

Back to the Google Maps.  I think OpenDNS times out on some of those
little squares of map and directs them to "guide.opendns.com".

This has happened every time I try OpenDNS for the last 9 months.  It
happens on different OS's WindowsXP, Kubuntu 7.04 and 7.10(After a
clean install), yet I can find no complaints online about it.

I just thought about disabling typo correcting after loggin in, I'm
going to try this.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fix this.
Any ideas on why this happens only to me?

-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From slestak989 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 01:07:40 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 01:07:40 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] moving to GR
Message-ID: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>

Howdy folks,

Just wanted to introduce myself.  My name is Steve, and I am relocating 
to GR (Kentwood) in 2 weeks.

Subscribed to the mailing list to try to see what kind of LUG scene 
there is in town.  Really hope to make a meeting or two and help at 
install-fests.

A little background where I'm coming from,  I use Ubuntu for 99.9% of my 
computer use.  Currently have Gutsy on my Dell laptop.  Still have the 
Vista install that came with it, but its gathering cobwebs.  Think I 
want my 60G of disk space back.  I find that xp pro in virtualbox is 
sufficient for anything I need msft for.

Previous distros I've favored are Mandrake and Gentoo.  Gentoo was my 
longest stint, probably from 1.4rc's to maybe 2006.  Edgy was my first 
Ubuntu install, primarily as Gentoos userbase polarized arounf DRobbins 
treatment, StuHerbert, and such.   Just wasn't a comfortable home any 
more.  Had lots of fun with gentoo, installing it on Casio Fiva 205 
subnotes, Old World mac All-In-Ones, pretty much anything I could get my 
hands on.

I am a Unidata developer working in Lawn and Garden Distribution.  
Unidata (Pick) is now an IBM product, but has a lineage back to ~1967.  
It is a great unix based db that meets the needs of thousands of small 
to medium size businesses even today.

Wanted to chime in on the editor discussion from earlier this month, I 
used to prefer vi everywhere, and at home it is my first choice, but 
gasp, at work Ive sold out to a win32 editor.  I have to use XP on my 
desktop and my boss turned me on to UltraEdit, which if you have to use 
win is a very cool editor.  It has tons of options aimed primarily at 
developers.

Well, just wanted to say hi.

Steve

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 01:59:51 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 01:59:51 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] moving to GR
In-Reply-To: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Welcome aboard.  The e-mail part
of the GRLUG is quite active, and
very helpful in general.  Actual get
togethers wax and wane in frequency.
Several years ago meets at coffee
houses were done,  but nothing much
recently.  You will usually get many
good suggestions for hardware and
software questions.

Jump in.

   -Bob



On Nov 14, 2007 1:07 AM, Steve Romanow  wrote:

> Howdy folks,
>
> Just wanted to introduce myself.  My name is Steve, and I am relocating
> to GR (Kentwood) in 2 weeks.
>
> Subscribed to the mailing list to try to see what kind of LUG scene
> there is in town.  Really hope to make a meeting or two and help at
> install-fests.
>
> A little background where I'm coming from,  I use Ubuntu for 99.9% of my
> computer use.  Currently have Gutsy on my Dell laptop.  Still have the
> Vista install that came with it, but its gathering cobwebs.  Think I
> want my 60G of disk space back.  I find that xp pro in virtualbox is
> sufficient for anything I need msft for.
>
> Previous distros I've favored are Mandrake and Gentoo.  Gentoo was my
> longest stint, probably from 1.4rc's to maybe 2006.  Edgy was my first
> Ubuntu install, primarily as Gentoos userbase polarized arounf DRobbins
> treatment, StuHerbert, and such.   Just wasn't a comfortable home any
> more.  Had lots of fun with gentoo, installing it on Casio Fiva 205
> subnotes, Old World mac All-In-Ones, pretty much anything I could get my
> hands on.
>
> I am a Unidata developer working in Lawn and Garden Distribution.
> Unidata (Pick) is now an IBM product, but has a lineage back to ~1967.
> It is a great unix based db that meets the needs of thousands of small
> to medium size businesses even today.
>
> Wanted to chime in on the editor discussion from earlier this month, I
> used to prefer vi everywhere, and at home it is my first choice, but
> gasp, at work Ive sold out to a win32 editor.  I have to use XP on my
> desktop and my boss turned me on to UltraEdit, which if you have to use
> win is a very cool editor.  It has tons of options aimed primarily at
> developers.
>
> Well, just wanted to say hi.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From justin.denick at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 06:45:05 2007
From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 06:45:05 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] moving to GR
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <81e08d920711140345y793e87f2o54afb3ee19e035@mail.gmail.com>

Welcome to the LUG!


On Nov 14, 2007 1:59 AM, Bob Kline  wrote:

> Welcome aboard.  The e-mail part
> of the GRLUG is quite active, and
> very helpful in general.  Actual get
> togethers wax and wane in frequency.
> Several years ago meets at coffee
> houses were done,  but nothing much
> recently.  You will usually get many
> good suggestions for hardware and
> software questions.
>
> Jump in.
>
>    -Bob
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2007 1:07 AM, Steve Romanow < slestak989 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Howdy folks,
> >
> > Just wanted to introduce myself.  My name is Steve, and I am relocating
> > to GR (Kentwood) in 2 weeks.
> >
> > Subscribed to the mailing list to try to see what kind of LUG scene
> > there is in town.  Really hope to make a meeting or two and help at
> > install-fests.
> >
> > A little background where I'm coming from,  I use Ubuntu for 99.9% of my
> > computer use.  Currently have Gutsy on my Dell laptop.  Still have the
> > Vista install that came with it, but its gathering cobwebs.  Think I
> > want my 60G of disk space back.  I find that xp pro in virtualbox is
> > sufficient for anything I need msft for.
> >
> > Previous distros I've favored are Mandrake and Gentoo.  Gentoo was my
> > longest stint, probably from 1.4rc's to maybe 2006.  Edgy was my first
> > Ubuntu install, primarily as Gentoos userbase polarized arounf DRobbins
> > treatment, StuHerbert, and such.   Just wasn't a comfortable home any
> > more.  Had lots of fun with gentoo, installing it on Casio Fiva 205
> > subnotes, Old World mac All-In-Ones, pretty much anything I could get my
> >
> > hands on.
> >
> > I am a Unidata developer working in Lawn and Garden Distribution.
> > Unidata (Pick) is now an IBM product, but has a lineage back to ~1967.
> > It is a great unix based db that meets the needs of thousands of small
> > to medium size businesses even today.
> >
> > Wanted to chime in on the editor discussion from earlier this month, I
> > used to prefer vi everywhere, and at home it is my first choice, but
> > gasp, at work Ive sold out to a win32 editor.  I have to use XP on my
> > desktop and my boss turned me on to UltraEdit, which if you have to use
> > win is a very cool editor.  It has tons of options aimed primarily at
> > developers.
> >
> > Well, just wanted to say hi.
> >
> > Steve
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
In vino veritas.
       [In wine there is truth.]
               -- Pliny
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From darth_linux at ameritech.net  Wed Nov 14 08:00:48 2007
From: darth_linux at ameritech.net (eah)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:00:48 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] moving to GR
In-Reply-To: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200711140800.48549.darth_linux@ameritech.net>

On Wednesday 14 November 2007 01:07:40 am Steve Romanow wrote:
> Howdy folks,
>
> Just wanted to introduce myself.  My name is Steve, and I am relocating
> to GR (Kentwood) in 2 weeks.
>
> Subscribed to the mailing list to try to see what kind of LUG scene
> there is in town.  Really hope to make a meeting or two and help at
> install-fests.
>
> A little background where I'm coming from,  I use Ubuntu for 99.9% of my
> computer use.  Currently have Gutsy on my Dell laptop.  Still have the
> Vista install that came with it, but its gathering cobwebs.  Think I
> want my 60G of disk space back.  I find that xp pro in virtualbox is
> sufficient for anything I need msft for.
>
> Previous distros I've favored are Mandrake and Gentoo.  Gentoo was my
> longest stint, probably from 1.4rc's to maybe 2006.  Edgy was my first
> Ubuntu install, primarily as Gentoos userbase polarized arounf DRobbins
> treatment, StuHerbert, and such.   Just wasn't a comfortable home any
> more.  Had lots of fun with gentoo, installing it on Casio Fiva 205
> subnotes, Old World mac All-In-Ones, pretty much anything I could get my
> hands on.
>
> I am a Unidata developer working in Lawn and Garden Distribution.
> Unidata (Pick) is now an IBM product, but has a lineage back to ~1967.
> It is a great unix based db that meets the needs of thousands of small
> to medium size businesses even today.
>
> Wanted to chime in on the editor discussion from earlier this month, I
> used to prefer vi everywhere, and at home it is my first choice, but
> gasp, at work Ive sold out to a win32 editor.  I have to use XP on my
> desktop and my boss turned me on to UltraEdit, which if you have to use
> win is a very cool editor.  It has tons of options aimed primarily at
> developers.
>
> Well, just wanted to say hi.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

good to have you!

eah

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 08:06:07 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:06:07 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] OpenDNS
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711140506q27f32ed4gb5613479b27dcd34@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 13, 2007 10:50 PM, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:
> Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fix this.
> Any ideas on why this happens only to me?

What sort of router are you using?  Also, IPv4 vs. IPv6 DNS requests
may or may not make a difference (Firefox on Linux, at least, issues
IPv6 DNS requests by default - some routers, and I suppose some ISPs,
may not like them).

--tim

From flanderb at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 08:41:43 2007
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:41:43 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] OpenDNS
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0711140506q27f32ed4gb5613479b27dcd34@mail.gmail.com>
References: 
	<2c97fe9d0711140506q27f32ed4gb5613479b27dcd34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

The router is a Netgear wgr614.
Now that you mention it, I believe the problem is worse in Linux.
When I get home I'll change Firefox to use only IPv4 and see if that
helps.

Thank you Tim


On Nov 14, 2007 8:06 AM, Tim Schmidt  wrote:
> On Nov 13, 2007 10:50 PM, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:
> > Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fix this.
> > Any ideas on why this happens only to me?
>
> What sort of router are you using?  Also, IPv4 vs. IPv6 DNS requests
> may or may not make a difference (Firefox on Linux, at least, issues
> IPv6 DNS requests by default - some routers, and I suppose some ISPs,
> may not like them).
>
> --tim
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From slestak989 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 08:49:32 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:49:32 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] OpenDNS
In-Reply-To: 
References: 	<2c97fe9d0711140506q27f32ed4gb5613479b27dcd34@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <473AFCEC.7050805@gmail.com>

Benjamin Flanders wrote:
>   
>> On Nov 13, 2007 10:50 PM, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:
>>     
>>> Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fix this.
>>> Any ideas on why this happens only to me?
>>>       
Are you using a laptop?  Maybe try from Panera or some other hotspot and 
see if the problem follows the client, or is just occuring at home 
through your router.

I have used dnsmasq on my media server to cache dns lookups for my home 
lan, may help here also.

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 14 09:46:56 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:46:56 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] OpenDNS
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20071114144656.GA4686@jrichards.org>

On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 10:50:48PM -0500, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
[snip]
> This has happened every time I try OpenDNS for the last 9 months.  It
> happens on different OS's WindowsXP, Kubuntu 7.04 and 7.10(After a
> clean install), yet I can find no complaints online about it.
> 
> I just thought about disabling typo correcting after loggin in, I'm
> going to try this.

After logging in?  To your box?

> Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fix this.
> Any ideas on why this happens only to me?

Remember that little kid in second grade that you used to pick on?  Do you,
pal?  Do you remember?  Betcha wish you could go back and offer a little
apology, now don't you?  Don't you?

Okay.  That was a little over the top, but I have no idea why this only
happens to you.  What are the entries in /etc/resolv.conf?
-- 
john-thomas
------
Tact is the ability to describe others as they see themselves.
Abraham Lincoln, 16th president of the U.S (1809-1865)

From mikemol at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 10:24:45 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:24:45 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] moving to GR
In-Reply-To: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Welcome!

On Nov 14, 2007 1:07 AM, Steve Romanow  wrote:
> Howdy folks,
>
> Just wanted to introduce myself.  My name is Steve, and I am relocating
> to GR (Kentwood) in 2 weeks.
>
> Subscribed to the mailing list to try to see what kind of LUG scene
> there is in town.  Really hope to make a meeting or two and help at
> install-fests.
>
> A little background where I'm coming from,  I use Ubuntu for 99.9% of my
> computer use.  Currently have Gutsy on my Dell laptop.  Still have the
> Vista install that came with it, but its gathering cobwebs.  Think I
> want my 60G of disk space back.  I find that xp pro in virtualbox is
> sufficient for anything I need msft for.
>
> Previous distros I've favored are Mandrake and Gentoo.  Gentoo was my
> longest stint, probably from 1.4rc's to maybe 2006.  Edgy was my first
> Ubuntu install, primarily as Gentoos userbase polarized arounf DRobbins
> treatment, StuHerbert, and such.   Just wasn't a comfortable home any
> more.  Had lots of fun with gentoo, installing it on Casio Fiva 205
> subnotes, Old World mac All-In-Ones, pretty much anything I could get my
> hands on.
>
> I am a Unidata developer working in Lawn and Garden Distribution.
> Unidata (Pick) is now an IBM product, but has a lineage back to ~1967.
> It is a great unix based db that meets the needs of thousands of small
> to medium size businesses even today.
>
> Wanted to chime in on the editor discussion from earlier this month, I
> used to prefer vi everywhere, and at home it is my first choice, but
> gasp, at work Ive sold out to a win32 editor.  I have to use XP on my
> desktop and my boss turned me on to UltraEdit, which if you have to use
> win is a very cool editor.  It has tons of options aimed primarily at
> developers.
>
> Well, just wanted to say hi.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
:wq

From flanderb at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 10:46:30 2007
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:46:30 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] OpenDNS
In-Reply-To: <20071114144656.GA4686@jrichards.org>
References: 
	<20071114144656.GA4686@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: 

What I meant was, and I realize I didn't really specify, logging in to
OpenDNS and going to the dashboard and disabling typo correction which
points incorrect addresses to the guide page.

That kid... He was just plain weird.

On Nov 14, 2007 9:46 AM, john-thomas richards  wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 10:50:48PM -0500, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> [snip]
> > This has happened every time I try OpenDNS for the last 9 months.  It
> > happens on different OS's WindowsXP, Kubuntu 7.04 and 7.10(After a
> > clean install), yet I can find no complaints online about it.
> >
> > I just thought about disabling typo correcting after loggin in, I'm
> > going to try this.
>
> After logging in?  To your box?
>
> > Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fix this.
> > Any ideas on why this happens only to me?
>
> Remember that little kid in second grade that you used to pick on?  Do you,
> pal?  Do you remember?  Betcha wish you could go back and offer a little
> apology, now don't you?  Don't you?
>
> Okay.  That was a little over the top, but I have no idea why this only
> happens to you.  What are the entries in /etc/resolv.conf?
> --
> john-thomas
> ------
> Tact is the ability to describe others as they see themselves.
> Abraham Lincoln, 16th president of the U.S (1809-1865)
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 14 11:26:03 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:26:03 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] OpenDNS
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<20071114144656.GA4686@jrichards.org>
	
Message-ID: <20071114162603.GA8187@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 10:46:30AM -0500, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> What I meant was, and I realize I didn't really specify, logging in to
> OpenDNS and going to the dashboard and disabling typo correction which
> points incorrect addresses to the guide page.

You log into OpenDNS?  Hmm...  I just use the DNS server IP addresses in
/etc/resolv.conf.  Something new to check out...

> That kid... He was just plain weird.

Heh.  I, er, *he* forgives you.
-- 
john-thomas
------
The fact that boys are allowed to exist at all is evidence of a
remarkable Christian forbearance among men.
Ambrose Bierce

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 12:43:07 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:43:07 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Favor
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711140943j33401e83n5e986f6774d864f4@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone have a Socket F (1207) CPU?

Just got a new server board and CPUs...  the board supports the CPUs,
but only after a BIOS update.  Anyone have a single or dual-core
Socket F CPU I could borrow long enough to get the update flashed?

Anything to not have to shell out another $200 for a CPU just to do
the BIOS update with.

--tim

From slestak989 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 12:59:24 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:59:24 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] OpenDNS
In-Reply-To: <20071114162603.GA8187@jrichards.org>
References: 	<20071114144656.GA4686@jrichards.org>	
	<20071114162603.GA8187@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <473B377C.4020007@gmail.com>

john-thomas richards wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 10:46:30AM -0500, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
>   
>> What I meant was, and I realize I didn't really specify, logging in to
>> OpenDNS and going to the dashboard and disabling typo correction which
>> points incorrect addresses to the guide page.
>>     
>
> You log into OpenDNS?  Hmm...  I just use the DNS server IP addresses in
> /etc/resolv.conf.  Something new to check out...
>
>   
>> That kid... He was just plain weird.
>>     
>
> Heh.  I, er, *he* forgives you.
>   
lol, I think he means account maintenence at opendns.org.

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 14 13:47:58 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:47:58 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] OpenDNS
In-Reply-To: <473B377C.4020007@gmail.com>
References: 
	<20071114144656.GA4686@jrichards.org>
	
	<20071114162603.GA8187@jrichards.org> <473B377C.4020007@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071114184758.GA12177@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 12:59:24PM -0500, Steve Romanow wrote:
> john-thomas richards wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 10:46:30AM -0500, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> >   
> >> What I meant was, and I realize I didn't really specify, logging in to
> >> OpenDNS and going to the dashboard and disabling typo correction which
> >> points incorrect addresses to the guide page.
> >>     
> >
> > You log into OpenDNS?  Hmm...  I just use the DNS server IP addresses in
> > /etc/resolv.conf.  Something new to check out...
> >
> >   
> >> That kid... He was just plain weird.
> >>     
> >
> > Heh.  I, er, *he* forgives you.
> >   
> lol, I think he means account maintenence at opendns.org.

I know.  I had no idea OpenDNS offered accounts.  Literally.  I found their
DNS server addresses and plugged 'em in to my box a looong time ago.  I have
not been back to the site in nearly as long.  I did not know they offered
site blocking and such.  I will be trying out these features soon.
-- 
john-thomas
------
The trade of governing has always been monopolized by the most ignorant and
the most rascally individuals of mankind.
Thomas Paine, philosopher and writer (1737-1809)

From geektoyz at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 18:42:32 2007
From: geektoyz at gmail.com (Godwin)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:42:32 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] moving to GR
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>

Welcome in deed Steve!  Good to have someone with "long time" knowledge...  ;-)

cheers,
Godwin


On Nov 14, 2007 10:24 AM, Michael Mol  wrote:
> Welcome!
>
> On Nov 14, 2007 1:07 AM, Steve Romanow  wrote:
>
> > Howdy folks,
> >
> > Just wanted to introduce myself.  My name is Steve, and I am relocating
> > to GR (Kentwood) in 2 weeks.
> >
> > Subscribed to the mailing list to try to see what kind of LUG scene
> > there is in town.  Really hope to make a meeting or two and help at
> > install-fests.
> >
> > A little background where I'm coming from,  I use Ubuntu for 99.9% of my
> > computer use.  Currently have Gutsy on my Dell laptop.  Still have the
> > Vista install that came with it, but its gathering cobwebs.  Think I
> > want my 60G of disk space back.  I find that xp pro in virtualbox is
> > sufficient for anything I need msft for.
> >
> > Previous distros I've favored are Mandrake and Gentoo.  Gentoo was my
> > longest stint, probably from 1.4rc's to maybe 2006.  Edgy was my first
> > Ubuntu install, primarily as Gentoos userbase polarized arounf DRobbins
> > treatment, StuHerbert, and such.   Just wasn't a comfortable home any
> > more.  Had lots of fun with gentoo, installing it on Casio Fiva 205
> > subnotes, Old World mac All-In-Ones, pretty much anything I could get my
> > hands on.
> >
> > I am a Unidata developer working in Lawn and Garden Distribution.
> > Unidata (Pick) is now an IBM product, but has a lineage back to ~1967.
> > It is a great unix based db that meets the needs of thousands of small
> > to medium size businesses even today.
> >
> > Wanted to chime in on the editor discussion from earlier this month, I
> > used to prefer vi everywhere, and at home it is my first choice, but
> > gasp, at work Ive sold out to a win32 editor.  I have to use XP on my
> > desktop and my boss turned me on to UltraEdit, which if you have to use
> > win is a very cool editor.  It has tons of options aimed primarily at
> > developers.
> >
> > Well, just wanted to say hi.
> >
> > Steve
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
>
> --
> :wq
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 

Ubber::Geek
http://grlug.org/

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 14 21:51:18 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:51:18 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] moving to GR
In-Reply-To: <8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 06:42:32PM -0500, Godwin wrote:
> Welcome in deed Steve!  Good to have someone with "long time" knowledge...  ;-)

Speaking of that, and completely off the topic of this thread, I have used
Linux now for ten years.  Who on this list has been using it longer than that?

-- 
john-thomas
------
There is no kind of dishonesty into which otherwise good people more easily
and frequently fall than that of defrauding the government.
Benjamin Franklin, statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)

From dave at brondsema.net  Wed Nov 14 22:12:29 2007
From: dave at brondsema.net (Dave Brondsema)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:12:29 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] weather forecast applet?
Message-ID: <473BB91D.6040604@brondsema.net>


Can anyone recommend for a weather forecast applet for my desktop?  I'm
using KDE but it doesn't have to be KDE-specific.  Everything I've found
only does the current weather, but I'd like to have a quick unobtrusive
way to check _forecasts_ for the next day or so.

-- 
Dave Brondsema : dave at brondsema.net
http://www.brondsema.net : personal
http://www.splike.com : programming
               <><

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From bob.kline at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 22:35:56 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:35:56 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] moving to GR
In-Reply-To: <20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 14, 2007 9:51 PM, john-thomas richards  wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 06:42:32PM -0500, Godwin wrote:
> > Welcome in deed Steve!  Good to have someone with "long time"
> knowledge...  ;-)
>
> Speaking of that, and completely off the topic of this thread, I have used
> Linux now for ten years.  Who on this list has been using it longer than
> that?
>
> --
> john-thomas
> ------
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel

A little Linux history.  I've been playing
with it,  or been around those who have,
since about 1994.  First with Slackware,
which came on about 10 compressed
floppies,  and already worked fine.

I've been in and out of it over the years,
but never as an IT person.  I mostly
translated the Unix background I had
to Linux.  It was only about 15 years
ago,  if that,  that most of us could get
our hands on things like AT&T SVR3
and SVR4.  Before that it was impractical
for anyone to have a private copy of Unix.
All to say that it was in and around 1992
or thereafter that anyone could have any
kind of person version of Unix or a Unix
like OS.  Much of a version anyway.

     -Bob
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From slestak989 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 23:37:38 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:37:38 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>		<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	
Message-ID: <473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>

Bob Kline wrote:
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2007 9:51 PM, john-thomas richards  > wrote:
>
>     On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 06:42:32PM -0500, Godwin wrote:
>     > Welcome in deed Steve!  Good to have someone with "long time"
>     knowledge...  ;-)
>
>     Speaking of that, and completely off the topic of this thread, I
>     have used
>     Linux now for ten years.  Who on this list has been using it
>     longer than that?
>
>     --
>     john-thomas
>     -----
>
Wow, good topic.

I think I am sitting at 1996, I worked for Inland Truck Parts in KC, 
Mo.  My boss said we could run anything on our laptops EXCEPT a product 
from Redmond.  So I had Redhat installed on a Fujitsu Lifebook.  I was 
too much of a noob, I didnt install it, my friend Dean (a yooper) 
installed it.  For personal full time use, that'd prob be 2002 or so.  I 
think it was when I realized the only way I could have a completely 
legal system (because I was broke) was to depend on FOSS.

From mikemol at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 01:09:09 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:09:09 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: <473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	
	<473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 14, 2007 11:37 PM, Steve Romanow  wrote:
> Bob Kline wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Nov 14, 2007 9:51 PM, john-thomas richards  > > wrote:
> >
> >     On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 06:42:32PM -0500, Godwin wrote:
> >     > Welcome in deed Steve!  Good to have someone with "long time"
> >     knowledge...  ;-)
> >
> >     Speaking of that, and completely off the topic of this thread, I
> >     have used
> >     Linux now for ten years.  Who on this list has been using it
> >     longer than that?
> >
> >     --
> >     john-thomas
> >     -----
> >
> Wow, good topic.
>
> I think I am sitting at 1996, I worked for Inland Truck Parts in KC,
> Mo.  My boss said we could run anything on our laptops EXCEPT a product
> from Redmond.  So I had Redhat installed on a Fujitsu Lifebook.  I was
> too much of a noob, I didnt install it, my friend Dean (a yooper)
> installed it.  For personal full time use, that'd prob be 2002 or so.  I
> think it was when I realized the only way I could have a completely
> legal system (because I was broke) was to depend on FOSS.

I don't remember exactly when I started using Linux.  I think it was
early winter when I was in 8th grade, which would put it in 1997.  My
parents ran a local BBS and ISP (called Cyberspace BBS and GRNet,
respectively), and the DNS server and Lynx shells ran on a Red Hat
box.  A couple friends of mine talked about nothing but Linux, so I
thought I'd give it a try.  I installed it and got it working, and was
completely taken by the screen savers...

That's how I got started in Linux.

I almost got my UNIX start with FreeBSD three years earlier.  I'd been
downloading shareware and DOOM mods from CDRom.com, and I noticed that
all the FTP greetings said the servers were running FreeBSD.  I asked
my dad to get me a copy, but was told it didn't have any games.
(Technically untrue; I've gotten more replay value out of the bsdgames
package than most of the DOS games I played.)

-- 
:wq

From ajabma at chartermi.net  Thu Nov 15 00:56:25 2007
From: ajabma at chartermi.net (Alan J Abma)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:56:25 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] weather forecast applet?
In-Reply-To: <473BB91D.6040604@brondsema.net>
References: <473BB91D.6040604@brondsema.net>
Message-ID: <200711150056.25280.ajabma@chartermi.net>

I use Gdesklets' GoodWeather.
It shows 5 days' forecast and current weather.
	AjA

On Wednesday 14 November 2007 10:12 pm, Dave Brondsema wrote:
> Can anyone recommend for a weather forecast applet for my desktop?  I'm
> using KDE but it doesn't have to be KDE-specific.  Everything I've found
> only does the current weather, but I'd like to have a quick unobtrusive
> way to check _forecasts_ for the next day or so.

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Thu Nov 15 08:01:13 2007
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin Kidder)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:01:13 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] moving to GR
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>		<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	
Message-ID: <473C4319.5050006@kkmfg.com>


>
>      
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel
>
> A little Linux history.  I've been playing
> with it,  or been around those who have,
> since about 1994.  First with Slackware,
> which came on about 10 compressed
> floppies,  and already worked fine.
>
> I've been in and out of it over the years,
> but never as an IT person.  I mostly
> translated the Unix background I had
> to Linux.  It was only about 15 years
> ago,  if that,  that most of us could get
> our hands on things like AT&T SVR3
> and SVR4.  Before that it was impractical
> for anyone to have a private copy of Unix.
> All to say that it was in and around 1992
> or thereafter that anyone could have any
> kind of person version of Unix or a Unix
> like OS.  Much of a version anyway. 
>
>      -Bob
>
Like Bob, I also got into linux through the old slackware distros on 
floppy. I probably still have them laying around somewhere. I believe it 
was some time around 1996 - 1997 when I first tried it out. I played 
with it off and on after that until about 4-5 years ago when I actually 
started using it on servers and 2-3 years ago when I started installing 
it on my personal machines too.

Oddly, all this linux experience hasn't caused me to post all of my 
emails 40 characters wide so that you feel like you are reading a 
teleprompter. ;-)

From JOlding at gts.gaineycorp.com  Thu Nov 15 08:09:14 2007
From: JOlding at gts.gaineycorp.com (Olding, Jim)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:09:14 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: <473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>		<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	<473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

I started in late '96, doing part time work at a local ISP where my
first experience with Linux was them setting me down in front of a
terminal and saying 'Type in man vi, read it, and go from there'.
Eventually I managed to 'sneak' a copy of Slackware home on install
floppies to mess around with on my own time.  Bitter memories of trying
to setup a PPP connection with command line scripts haunt me to this
day.

Since then, I've used it on and off as primary OS or in a dual boot
setup.

-----Original Message-----
From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf
Of Steve Romanow
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 11:38 PM
To: grlug at grlug.org
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux

Bob Kline wrote:
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2007 9:51 PM, john-thomas richards  > wrote:
>
>     On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 06:42:32PM -0500, Godwin wrote:
>     > Welcome in deed Steve!  Good to have someone with "long time"
>     knowledge...  ;-)
>
>     Speaking of that, and completely off the topic of this thread, I
>     have used
>     Linux now for ten years.  Who on this list has been using it
>     longer than that?
>
>     --
>     john-thomas
>     -----
>
Wow, good topic.

I think I am sitting at 1996, I worked for Inland Truck Parts in KC, Mo.
My boss said we could run anything on our laptops EXCEPT a product from
Redmond.  So I had Redhat installed on a Fujitsu Lifebook.  I was too
much of a noob, I didnt install it, my friend Dean (a yooper) installed
it.  For personal full time use, that'd prob be 2002 or so.  I think it
was when I realized the only way I could have a completely legal system
(because I was broke) was to depend on FOSS.
_______________________________________________
grlug mailing list
grlug at grlug.org
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

From drehfeldtusa at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 09:34:12 2007
From: drehfeldtusa at gmail.com (Douglas Rehfeldt)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:34:12 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] grlug Digest, Vol 20,
	Issue 43 - I have used Linux now for ten years. Who on this list
	has been using it longer than that?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <000101c82794$98546550$02c8a8c0@bigburner>

Mmm, interesting topic, but that was some time ago.  I used Caldera desktop
dual-booting with OS/2 back in '95-96(?) and since then what ever flavor of
Linux that looks or sounds good.  In fact, I just trashed my Caldera and
OS/2 floppy diskettes during house cleaning.  I also had some Red Hat
diskettes from the same time frame.  Currently, I use Opensuse, RedHat
(CentOS), and Ubuntu.  And Microsoft products because work requires
knowledge of the MS products too.   

-Doug


From jjfoerch at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 15 10:52:19 2007
From: jjfoerch at earthlink.net (John J Foerch)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:52:19 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	
	<473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <18236.27443.893840.59185@gargle.gargle.HOWL>

Michael Mol writes:
 > I don't remember exactly when I started using Linux.  I think it was
 > early winter when I was in 8th grade, which would put it in 1997.  My
 > parents ran a local BBS and ISP (called Cyberspace BBS and GRNet,
 > respectively), and the DNS server and Lynx shells ran on a Red Hat
 > box.  A couple friends of mine talked about nothing but Linux, so I
 > thought I'd give it a try.  I installed it and got it working, and was
 > completely taken by the screen savers...

I remember Cyberspace BBS.  A friend of mine used that as an isp and
was heavily into one of the role-playing games on it.  I checked it
out a couple of times, but for the most part I was into the
Renegade-based BBSes in town.  I was a sysop for my high school's BBS,
"Full Spectrum".  Small world--er, city.

--John

From blubdog at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 10:57:02 2007
From: blubdog at gmail.com (Bruce Smith)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:57:02 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	
	<473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: 

I still have my first Linux CD: Yggdrasil dated "Fall 1994".  I ran
across the media the other day and have been meaning to take a photo
of the CD and post it on my web site.

At the time I was trying to justify the money to buy a entry level
HP-UX workstation for home to get rid of Windows.  Then a Unix tech
support person from a major computer company told me to try Linux to
save money.  That was the first time I'd heard of Linux.  I ordered my
Yggdrasil CD shortly after that.

I've been Windows-FREE on my primary home and work desktops since
1996.  Windows-95 was my last desktop M$ OS.  I have XP running in
VMware for a couple infrequent tasks at work that require Windows.

I started with Yggdrasil, moved to Slackware 3.0, moved to Redhat 4.2
thru 9, moved to Fedora core one, then on to SuSE 9.? when Fedora
pissed me, and recently to Ubuntu when I couldn't take any more of the
SuSE 10.2 package management problems.  I'm using Ubuntu 7.10 right
now to send this email.  I've played with a number of other distros
over the years which never made it to my primary desktop (really hated
Gentoo, I know a lot of people love it, sorry).

At work I admin a half-dozen Redhat Enterprise servers, and a variety
of other free distros which function as servers.

For awhile I created my own Redhat/Fedora clone distro.  I'm currently
a developer on the Devil Linux distro (devil-linux.org).

I've also screwed around with Ubuntu and YellowDog Linux on the PPC
Mac and Debian on HP PA-RISC workstations.

Is that enough rambling?  :-)

 - BS

From fusion at darktech.org  Thu Nov 15 15:01:42 2007
From: fusion at darktech.org (Alexander Grotewohl)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:01:42 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] grlug Digest, Vol 20,
	Issue 43 - I have used Linux now for ten years. Who on this list
	has been using it longer than that?
In-Reply-To: <000101c82794$98546550$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
References: 
	<000101c82794$98546550$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
Message-ID: <20071115200142.GB11490@atlantis>

mmmm, I still use os/2 to run a bbs.. lol. It's telnet though..
I've been using linux since like 98 i believe.. I think I became
interested in linux when i wanted to know how those neat text based web
browser doors worked.. lynx ;) Although the eventual main purpose of my
linux dabbling was running an IRCd.. Unfortunately ( or not? =D ) a huge
part of the "computer experience" for me is IRC..

nowadays i'm kinda an addict :> most of my time is spent in various
gnu screen sessions.. with notable software being epic5, muttng and
finch..

er i kinda went on a tangent there.. owell;)

-- 
Alexander Grotewohl
http://cfbbs.net/

On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 09:34:12AM -0500, Douglas Rehfeldt wrote:
> Mmm, interesting topic, but that was some time ago.  I used Caldera desktop
> dual-booting with OS/2 back in '95-96(?) and since then what ever flavor of
> Linux that looks or sounds good.  In fact, I just trashed my Caldera and
> OS/2 floppy diskettes during house cleaning.  I also had some Red Hat
> diskettes from the same time frame.  Currently, I use Opensuse, RedHat
> (CentOS), and Ubuntu.  And Microsoft products because work requires
> knowledge of the MS products too.   
> 
> -Doug
> 
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

From justin.denick at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 22:04:37 2007
From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:04:37 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] weather forecast applet?
In-Reply-To: <200711150056.25280.ajabma@chartermi.net>
References: <473BB91D.6040604@brondsema.net>
	<200711150056.25280.ajabma@chartermi.net>
Message-ID: <81e08d920711151904h3f9854fei2df985ce777141e9@mail.gmail.com>

kde has an applet called kweather or something to that effect
i think our weather id is 2558
http://kweather.sourceforge.net/

On Nov 15, 2007 12:56 AM, Alan J Abma  wrote:

> I use Gdesklets' GoodWeather.
> It shows 5 days' forecast and current weather.
>        AjA
>
> On Wednesday 14 November 2007 10:12 pm, Dave Brondsema wrote:
> > Can anyone recommend for a weather forecast applet for my desktop?  I'm
> > using KDE but it doesn't have to be KDE-specific.  Everything I've found
> > only does the current weather, but I'd like to have a quick unobtrusive
> > way to check _forecasts_ for the next day or so.
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
In vino veritas.
       [In wine there is truth.]
               -- Pliny
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From justin.denick at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 22:31:53 2007
From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:31:53 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	
	<473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>
	
	
Message-ID: <81e08d920711151931h69e47696x9654805d774ed4b3@mail.gmail.com>

About four years ago I got my first computer. It had windows xp, and after
about 30 re-installs, I got sick of cracking stupid text editors, and
compression utilities.
I got a job as an it guy with Godwin and he introduced me to Mandrake 10,
and there I was on my way. The shell was really interesting i think. The
speed and easy the cli brings to computing for a profession! "urpmi this"
"rm that" Then I started writing shell scripts to do all sorts of jobs.
Those were fun, but some were pretty insane, like the sasquatch that
purposed to reinstall every OS on the network from a live CD with icons.
Gentoo is my OS now and I will flame, i just have to, so just let it go, my
heart is no longer faint :-).

Now I'm trying to make people "efficient" by providing "an intuitive UI"
while adhering to seeming ever changing business logic.

I feel like I've learned a lot in the past four years, I still have and use
the computer, but I'm no closer to defining "efficient" nor "intuitive" It
works for me, but my screen is better and I know where the buttons are,
cause I put them there. So how do you make the program better? Stupid
shell... Shoulda stuck with Mr. Ballmer...

Any ways, I love Linux just like I love Beer. Though, I'm not nearly as
brand loyal to the latter, since aspirin is a distro agnostic dependency, it
won't matter.



On Nov 15, 2007 10:57 AM, Bruce Smith  wrote:

> I still have my first Linux CD: Yggdrasil dated "Fall 1994".  I ran
> across the media the other day and have been meaning to take a photo
> of the CD and post it on my web site.
>
> At the time I was trying to justify the money to buy a entry level
> HP-UX workstation for home to get rid of Windows.  Then a Unix tech
> support person from a major computer company told me to try Linux to
> save money.  That was the first time I'd heard of Linux.  I ordered my
> Yggdrasil CD shortly after that.
>
> I've been Windows-FREE on my primary home and work desktops since
> 1996.  Windows-95 was my last desktop M$ OS.  I have XP running in
> VMware for a couple infrequent tasks at work that require Windows.
>
> I started with Yggdrasil, moved to Slackware 3.0, moved to Redhat 4.2
> thru 9, moved to Fedora core one, then on to SuSE 9.? when Fedora
> pissed me, and recently to Ubuntu when I couldn't take any more of the
> SuSE 10.2 package management problems.  I'm using Ubuntu 7.10 right
> now to send this email.  I've played with a number of other distros
> over the years which never made it to my primary desktop (really hated
> Gentoo, I know a lot of people love it, sorry).
>
> At work I admin a half-dozen Redhat Enterprise servers, and a variety
> of other free distros which function as servers.
>
> For awhile I created my own Redhat/Fedora clone distro.  I'm currently
> a developer on the Devil Linux distro (devil-linux.org).
>
> I've also screwed around with Ubuntu and YellowDog Linux on the PPC
> Mac and Debian on HP PA-RISC workstations.
>
> Is that enough rambling?  :-)
>
>  - BS
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
In vino veritas.
       [In wine there is truth.]
               -- Pliny
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From slestak989 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 23:46:06 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:46:06 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] weather forecast applet?
In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711151904h3f9854fei2df985ce777141e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <473BB91D.6040604@brondsema.net>	<200711150056.25280.ajabma@chartermi.net>
	<81e08d920711151904h3f9854fei2df985ce777141e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473D208E.7090306@gmail.com>

Justin Denick wrote:
> kde has an applet called kweather or something to that effect
> i think our weather id is 2558
> http://kweather.sourceforge.net/
>
> On Nov 15, 2007 12:56 AM, Alan J Abma < ajabma at chartermi.net 
> > wrote:
>
>     I use Gdesklets' GoodWeather.
>     It shows 5 days' forecast and current weather.
>            AjA
>
>
>     On Wednesday 14 November 2007 10:12 pm, Dave Brondsema wrote:
>     > Can anyone recommend for a weather forecast applet for my
>     desktop?  I'm
>     > using KDE but it doesn't have to be KDE-specific.  Everything
>     I've found
>     > only does the current weather, but I'd like to have a quick
>     unobtrusive
>     > way to check _forecasts_ for the next day or so.
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     grlug mailing list
>     grlug at grlug.org 
>     http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> In vino veritas.
>        [In wine there is truth.]
>                -- Pliny
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
there is one in gnome panel in Gutsy as well

From ajabma at chartermi.net  Thu Nov 15 23:58:34 2007
From: ajabma at chartermi.net (Alan J Abma)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:58:34 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] weather forecast applet?
In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711151904h3f9854fei2df985ce777141e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <473BB91D.6040604@brondsema.net>
	<200711150056.25280.ajabma@chartermi.net>
	<81e08d920711151904h3f9854fei2df985ce777141e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200711152358.34323.ajabma@chartermi.net>

Kweather sits in your panel and, last I used it, just showed current weather.
There's a weather app that runs in gkrellm too, that I like. It'll give you 
lots of detail about current conditions.
goodweather is nice because it's display is somewhat configurable.
The display is in xml so you could really modify it to your liking if you 
wanted to go to the effort.
   
On Thursday 15 November 2007 10:04 pm, Justin Denick wrote:
> kde has an applet called kweather or something to that effect
> i think our weather id is 2558
> http://kweather.sourceforge.net/
>
> On Nov 15, 2007 12:56 AM, Alan J Abma  wrote:
> > I use Gdesklets' GoodWeather.
> > It shows 5 days' forecast and current weather.
> >        AjA
> >
> > On Wednesday 14 November 2007 10:12 pm, Dave Brondsema wrote:
> > > Can anyone recommend for a weather forecast applet for my desktop?  I'm
> > > using KDE but it doesn't have to be KDE-specific.  Everything I've
> > > found only does the current weather, but I'd like to have a quick
> > > unobtrusive way to check _forecasts_ for the next day or so.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 00:38:54 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:38:54 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>

So today was my first chance to work with a new box we built just
yesterday...  it's got 2x quad-core opterons and 32Gb ram.  I noticed
something interesting about it's performance characteristics under
load as compared to typical desktop boxen: it's MUCH more responsive
in interactive situations under high load than any other machine I've
ever worked with.  Today I had it up to > 1300 15 minute load average
running about 4000 processes, each of which doing real honest work,
and it was still quite pleasant to launch applications, switch between
VTs, cd around filesystems, etc.  I guess all the other boxes I've
ever worked with (< 10Gb ram, all of them) were forced to swap before
supporting enough processes to get the load that high, thus killing
interactivity and artificially bloating the load at the same time.
I'm pretty impressed that, with enough ram, even a box doing about
150x as much work as it should (1300 / 8 = 162.5) can still feel
'snappy'.  :)

This sort of stuff isn't too far off from where high-end desktops are
now (technically, there's nothing stopping this machine from being a
desktop)...  Can't wait until it gets cheap enough to think about for
home.

--tim

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 00:45:26 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:45:26 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2007 12:38 AM, Tim Schmidt  wrote:

> So today was my first chance to work with a new box we built just
> yesterday...  it's got 2x quad-core opterons and 32Gb ram.  I noticed
> something interesting about it's performance characteristics under
> load as compared to typical desktop boxen: it's MUCH more responsive
> in interactive situations under high load than any other machine I've
> ever worked with.  Today I had it up to > 1300 15 minute load average
> running about 4000 processes, each of which doing real honest work,
> and it was still quite pleasant to launch applications, switch between
> VTs, cd around filesystems, etc.  I guess all the other boxes I've
> ever worked with (< 10Gb ram, all of them) were forced to swap before
> supporting enough processes to get the load that high, thus killing
> interactivity and artificially bloating the load at the same time.
> I'm pretty impressed that, with enough ram, even a box doing about
> 150x as much work as it should (1300 / 8 = 162.5) can still feel
> 'snappy'.  :)
>
> This sort of stuff isn't too far off from where high-end desktops are
> now (technically, there's nothing stopping this machine from being a
> desktop)...  Can't wait until it gets cheap enough to think about for
> home.
>
> --tim
> 


If running Linux,  which  version?

Does the performance seem to result
more from all the processors or all the
memory, or is it hard to tell?  I'd think
swapping could be pretty fast in an
out of memory, but the instant it involves
a hard drive it's over.

    -Bob
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From timschmidt at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 00:57:29 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:57:29 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: 
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 16, 2007 12:45 AM, Bob Kline  wrote:
> If running Linux,  which  version?

I've just tossed Ubuntu 7.10 server on it.

> Does the performance seem to result
> more from all the processors or all the
> memory, or is it hard to tell?

Depends entirely on what sort of load you put on it...  of course, all
that ram doesn't hurt.

>  I'd think swapping could be pretty fast in an
> out of memory, but the instant it involves
> a hard drive it's over.

?  Swapping always involves block storage of some type.  How much it
hurts again, depends on memory access patterns of your load, as well
as what percentage of the working set is swapped, and so on.

--tim

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 01:15:18 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:15:18 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2007 12:57 AM, Tim Schmidt  wrote:

> On Nov 16, 2007 12:45 AM, Bob Kline  wrote:
> > If running Linux,  which  version?
>
> I've just tossed Ubuntu 7.10 server on it.
>
> > Does the performance seem to result
> > more from all the processors or all the
> > memory, or is it hard to tell?
>
> Depends entirely on what sort of load you put on it...  of course, all
> that ram doesn't hurt.
>
> >  I'd think swapping could be pretty fast in an
> > out of memory, but the instant it involves
> > a hard drive it's over.
>
> ?  Swapping always involves block storage of some type.  How much it
> hurts again, depends on memory access patterns of your load, as well
> as what percentage of the working set is swapped, and so on.
>
> --tim
>
>
So would you guess that even more
processors would help?  With your
load profile that is?

It's not impossible that even a desktop
will have hundreds of CPUs one day.
I have no idea whether Linux could
support that.  But with the concept of
one process per processor, without much
swapping while in typical use,    one
would see even more improvement.
Swapping always creates overhead,  so
the best way to reduce overhead is to not
swap where possible.  Including letting
other jobs wait in some circumstances
if they are not real time.

I just bought 4GB of memory for $100
recently.  For someone with deep pockets
a 100GB or more of memory could be
practical today.  As soon as anyone makes
a motherboard to enable this anyway.

     -Bob
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From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 01:16:19 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:16:19 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2007 12:57 AM, Tim Schmidt  wrote:
> On Nov 16, 2007 12:45 AM, Bob Kline  wrote:
> >  I'd think swapping could be pretty fast in an
> > out of memory, but the instant it involves
> > a hard drive it's over.
>
> ?  Swapping always involves block storage of some type.  How much it
> hurts again, depends on memory access patterns of your load, as well
> as what percentage of the working set is swapped, and so on.

Heh.  It could start hurting even more.  Apparently they're getting
close to implementing swap over NFS.  It's intended for diskless
cluster environments, but it still stands to complicate performance
issues.  Sub-optimal performance?  Do you have a bad network cable, or
are your jobs eating too much memory?

-- 
:wq

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 01:21:37 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:21:37 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: 
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711152221r701df358j28d7f4e385ac9a5a@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 16, 2007 1:16 AM, Michael Mol  wrote:
> Heh.  It could start hurting even more.  Apparently they're getting
> close to implementing swap over NFS.  It's intended for diskless
> cluster environments, but it still stands to complicate performance
> issues.  Sub-optimal performance?  Do you have a bad network cable, or
> are your jobs eating too much memory?

Swap over NFS has worked for years...  LTSP has (optionally) supported
it for ages.

--tim

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 01:23:01 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:23:01 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: 
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2007 1:16 AM, Michael Mol  wrote:

> On Nov 16, 2007 12:57 AM, Tim Schmidt  wrote:
> > On Nov 16, 2007 12:45 AM, Bob Kline  wrote:
> > >  I'd think swapping could be pretty fast in an
> > > out of memory, but the instant it involves
> > > a hard drive it's over.
> >
> > ?  Swapping always involves block storage of some type.  How much it
> > hurts again, depends on memory access patterns of your load, as well
> > as what percentage of the working set is swapped, and so on.
>
> Heh.  It could start hurting even more.  Apparently they're getting
> close to implementing swap over NFS.  It's intended for diskless
> cluster environments, but it still stands to complicate performance
> issues.  Sub-optimal performance?  Do you have a bad network cable, or
> are your jobs eating too much memory?
>
> --
> :wq
>
>
Defining efficiency on a system is
complicated anyway.  In order to
create the illusion of many users
each able to run a job on a machine
at the same time there has to be
overhead introduced.  In many cases
the most efficient efficient mode is
one job running.  The trick is to be
somewhere between one job running
and all overhead.

Something like a Linux version of
the Laffer curve.

     -Bob
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From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 01:24:05 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:24:05 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: 
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2007 1:15 AM, Bob Kline  wrote:
> On Nov 16, 2007 12:57 AM, Tim Schmidt  wrote:
> > On Nov 16, 2007 12:45 AM, Bob Kline  wrote:
> > > If running Linux,  which  version?
> So would you guess that even more
> processors would help?  With your
> load profile that is?
>
> It's not impossible that even a desktop
> will have hundreds of CPUs one day.
> I have no idea whether Linux could
> support that.  But with the concept of
> one process per processor, without much
> swapping while in typical use,    one
> would see even more improvement.
> Swapping always creates overhead,  so
> the best way to reduce overhead is to not
> swap where possible.  Including letting
> other jobs wait in some circumstances
> if they are not real time.

The O(1) scheduler brought in with the start of the 2.6 kernel series
means that you won't see a performance degradation with the addition
of more cores, if you're running independent tasks.  You might see a
limit to performance improvements if your software isn't written
right, though; It's deceptively easy to write bad multi-threaded code
that hangs up on one or two locks.

-- 
:wq

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 01:26:48 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:26:48 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0711152221r701df358j28d7f4e385ac9a5a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152221r701df358j28d7f4e385ac9a5a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2007 1:21 AM, Tim Schmidt  wrote:

> On Nov 16, 2007 1:16 AM, Michael Mol  wrote:
> > Heh.  It could start hurting even more.  Apparently they're getting
> > close to implementing swap over NFS.  It's intended for diskless
> > cluster environments, but it still stands to complicate performance
> > issues.  Sub-optimal performance?  Do you have a bad network cable, or
> > are your jobs eating too much memory?
>
> Swap over NFS has worked for years...  LTSP has (optionally) supported
> it for ages.
>
> --tim
>

If it's a real file system it would
seem to be a given that one could
have a swap file on it.  In the days
when NFS couldn't handle swap,
if there were such days,  what were
the issues?  Speed?  Possible network
congestion?

   -Bob
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From timschmidt at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 01:28:10 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:28:10 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: 
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711152228k734f2d03sd88ab0a76532f7c1@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 16, 2007 1:15 AM, Bob Kline  wrote:
> So would you guess that even more
> processors would help?  With your
> load profile that is?

We'll see...  :)

> It's not impossible that even a desktop
> will have hundreds of CPUs one day.
> I have no idea whether Linux could
> support that.

Yup.  It can.

>  But with the concept of
> one process per processor, without much
> swapping while in typical use,    one
> would see even more improvement.
> Swapping always creates overhead,  so
> the best way to reduce overhead is to not
> swap where possible.  Including letting
> other jobs wait in some circumstances
> if they are not real time.

Ah...  you're thinking pre-emptive multitasking.  Swapping, in this
context, would refer to moving a page from memory out to a block
device in order to free some memory to satisfy an allocation.

> I just bought 4GB of memory for $100
> recently.  For someone with deep pockets
> a 100GB or more of memory could be
> practical today.  As soon as anyone makes
> a motherboard to enable this anyway.

They've been around for a while...  for instance, this system supports
128Gb:  http://tyan.com/product_barebones_detail.aspx?pid=348

They're just getting cheaper :)

--tim

From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 01:28:16 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:28:16 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0711152221r701df358j28d7f4e385ac9a5a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152221r701df358j28d7f4e385ac9a5a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2007 1:21 AM, Tim Schmidt  wrote:
> On Nov 16, 2007 1:16 AM, Michael Mol  wrote:
> > Heh.  It could start hurting even more.  Apparently they're getting
> > close to implementing swap over NFS.  It's intended for diskless
> > cluster environments, but it still stands to complicate performance
> > issues.  Sub-optimal performance?  Do you have a bad network cable, or
> > are your jobs eating too much memory?
>
> Swap over NFS has worked for years...  LTSP has (optionally) supported
> it for ages.

Not perfectly; The NFS layer may require memory to be allocated, which
can be a problem if you're calling the NFS layer to get access to swap
so that you can free up some memory to honor an allocation request.
If there's already a lack of memory, the allocation request can fail.

Linky:
http://kerneltrap.org/Linux/Swap_Over_NFS


-- 
:wq

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 01:30:49 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:30:49 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: 
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152221r701df358j28d7f4e385ac9a5a@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711152230i1af0a327u2b27658d1328859e@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 16, 2007 1:28 AM, Michael Mol  wrote:
> Not perfectly

Sure.  The network layer performs memory allocations for each transfer
/ receive as well...  the mechanism for ensuring the network layer can
free enough pages to get a swap write done, and then receive an ack is
still up in the air.  Generally, however, it has worked 'well enough'
for quite some time.

--tim

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 01:35:34 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:35:34 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: 
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2007 1:24 AM, Michael Mol  wrote:

> On Nov 16, 2007 1:15 AM, Bob Kline  wrote:
> > On Nov 16, 2007 12:57 AM, Tim Schmidt  wrote:
> > > On Nov 16, 2007 12:45 AM, Bob Kline  wrote:
> > > > If running Linux,  which  version?
> > So would you guess that even more
> > processors would help?  With your
> > load profile that is?
> >
> > It's not impossible that even a desktop
> > will have hundreds of CPUs one day.
> > I have no idea whether Linux could
> > support that.  But with the concept of
> > one process per processor, without much
> > swapping while in typical use,    one
> > would see even more improvement.
> > Swapping always creates overhead,  so
> > the best way to reduce overhead is to not
> > swap where possible.  Including letting
> > other jobs wait in some circumstances
> > if they are not real time.
>
> The O(1) scheduler brought in with the start of the 2.6 kernel series
> means that you won't see a performance degradation with the addition
> of more cores, if you're running independent tasks.  You might see a
> limit to performance improvements if your software isn't written
> right, though; It's deceptively easy to write bad multi-threaded code
> that hangs up on one or two locks.
>
> --
> :wq
>
>
Well,  no OS, no matter how well
written,  can do much about the
applications people run on it.....

For now most of us probably can
assume the core parts of the OS are
not the problem if performance suffers.

      -Bob
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From bob.kline at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 01:42:32 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:42:32 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0711152228k734f2d03sd88ab0a76532f7c1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152228k734f2d03sd88ab0a76532f7c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2007 1:28 AM, Tim Schmidt  wrote:

> On Nov 16, 2007 1:15 AM, Bob Kline  wrote:
>
>
>
> > I just bought 4GB of memory for $100
> > recently.  For someone with deep pockets
> > a 100GB or more of memory could be
> > practical today.  As soon as anyone makes
> > a motherboard to enable this anyway.
>
> They've been around for a while...  for instance, this system supports
> 128Gb:  http://tyan.com/product_barebones_detail.aspx?pid=348
>
> They're just getting cheaper :)
>
> --tim
>
>
Interesting.  It seems (to me) that
memory costs  have taken a dive
in the recent past.  It could be that
demand has gone down,  that yields
have gone up for some reason,  etc.
I don't think memory has ever been
this cheap per megabyte - in fixed
dollars.

Years ago the US gov't accused the
Japanese of duming memory, and
impossed a stiff tariff.  The Japanese
obliged us, and cut down on shipments
to the US.  Memory prices went sky
high.  I remember paying ( with someone
else's money ) $200 for 1MB of Sun
workstation memory.  Probably a high
water mark.

    -Bob
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From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 01:43:16 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:43:16 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] large systems performance
In-Reply-To: 
References: <2c97fe9d0711152138q349d1f1arc2b82528db9d8d04@mail.gmail.com>
	
	<2c97fe9d0711152157w2743cf90y1bd62da8a15a0333@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2007 1:35 AM, Bob Kline  wrote:
> On Nov 16, 2007 1:24 AM, Michael Mol  wrote:
> > The O(1) scheduler brought in with the start of the 2.6 kernel series
> > means that you won't see a performance degradation with the addition
> > of more cores, if you're running independent tasks.  You might see a
> > limit to performance improvements if your software isn't written
> > right, though; It's deceptively easy to write bad multi-threaded code
> > that hangs up on one or two locks.
>
>
> Well,  no OS, no matter how well
> written,  can do much about the
> applications people run on it.....
>
> For now most of us probably can
> assume the core parts of the OS are
> not the problem if performance suffers.
>
>       -Bob
>

Certainly.  My point was that it would further complicate the job of a
coder/analyst working with clusters that implemented the feature.
But, working with performance clusters, they should be used to
complicated problems. :-)

-- 
:wq

From topher at wcsg.org  Fri Nov 16 08:38:04 2007
From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:38:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	
	<473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>
	
	
Message-ID: 

I first heard about Linux in 94, and then installed Redhat 4.2 (I think) 
in 1996.

I think I started running it for everything except games around 1997.  I 
needed win95 for Arena: The Elder Scrolls  :)

I was a redhat/fedora guy until about Fedora 3 or 4, and YUM just made me 
cry it was so slow.  I tried Ububtu and never looked back.

Topher
Manager of Internet Services
Cornerstone University Radio

------
"I laughed, I cried, it moved me, Bob"
         		-- Larry Boy

From flanderb at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 09:39:25 2007
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:39:25 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	
	<473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

I first heard about Linux in an OS class at GVSU, around '98.  The
first distro I installed at home was Suse 6.4 back in 2000.  I moved
onto Mandrake up until last year when I made one to many changes in
the urpmi repositories and had packages messed up and conflicting.  I
tried (K)Ubuntu and never returned to Mandrake(Now Mandriva).

I dual boot Kubuntu and WindowsXP, but I only ever used Windows for
video transcoding.  I am learning how to do this in Linux so my plan
is to wipe Windows off the computer by next spring.  At least that is
my hope.  I have to convince my wife that she doesn't need those darn
Windows only time constrained trial Yahoo games.

BTW I still consider myself relatively noobish.  I can do shell
scripts, but only with references from the web constantly being
referenced.  I've only used a small portion of the command line
utilities available and even then only straight forward use of those
utilities.  I am constantly going to man pages and I am always
learning something new.  I think that is why I like Linux so much, and
maybe why some people don't.


-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 10:14:15 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:14:15 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	
	<473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711160714l4c07b65ak80d85a714bf9dc6b@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 16, 2007 9:39 AM, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:
> I dual boot Kubuntu and WindowsXP, but I only ever used Windows for
> video transcoding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avidemux

--tim

From flanderb at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 11:06:18 2007
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:06:18 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0711160714l4c07b65ak80d85a714bf9dc6b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	
	<473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>
	
	
	
	
	<2c97fe9d0711160714l4c07b65ak80d85a714bf9dc6b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

AVIDemux had audio sync issues with Tivo Recordings(something to do
with getting the video off "the air").  I found GOPchop to work the
best.  I'm working on a little how-to on the Lug wiki.  It is a work
in progress because I have yet to get Tivo file -> DVD working, but I
know I will get there.  I have sucessufully removed commercials but I
used tovid(todvd actually) to burn a dvd and when played on my dvd
player the files played back all greenish and striated.

AnyVideoFile -> Tivo I have working better.  I just have to tweak the
ffmpeg command line a little better because about 1/2 inch on each
side is getting chopped off the video when viewed on a standard def
tv.

Anyway thanks for the suggestion Tim.

On Nov 16, 2007 10:14 AM, Tim Schmidt  wrote:
> On Nov 16, 2007 9:39 AM, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:
> > I dual boot Kubuntu and WindowsXP, but I only ever used Windows for
> > video transcoding.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avidemux
>
> --tim
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 11:12:32 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:12:32 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com> <20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	
	<473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>
	
	
	
	
	<2c97fe9d0711160714l4c07b65ak80d85a714bf9dc6b@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711160812h10743caeh6fa55723ff937daf@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 16, 2007 11:06 AM, Benjamin Flanders  wrote:
> Anyway thanks for the suggestion Tim.

No problem.  Sounds like you had it handled just fine without it.  :)

--tim

From tehpopa at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 13:50:27 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:50:27 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Passing button press events
Message-ID: 

Okay so here's the deal. I switched from Linux to Windows for a couple of
reasons, and really, they were basically dumb reasons that I should be able
to get around. So here's my thoughts.

The biggest reason I dropped Linux was because of SLI not working(new
motherboard, so not a problem anymore) and Ventrilo. For those who don't
know, vent is an application that handles voice chat. When a user hits the
'Push To Talk' button they've configured in the program, the software begins
to stream out the mic audio. In windows this is a simple app, and the push
to talk button is found using DirectX. In Linux, that's 1 of 2 problems.
Apparently X will only send keypresses to the current targeted application.
Meaning if I'm alt-tabbed into WoW or Firefox, I can't use the PTT button.
My thought is this:

1) Install VMWare over Ubuntu Feisty or Fed 8
2) Install Ventrilo on the VMWare server
3) Configure VMWare to use a second sound card for Mic Input and audio
output, then pump the output from there into my 'Linux' audio card so I can
hear it.
4) Here's the hard part: set up an app that can copy keypresses from the
mouse /dev device and relay them to the VMWare window.

I can handle 1-3 no problem, but I don't even know where to start on part 4.
Anyone ever had to do anything like this?
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From erickson.adam.m at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 16:01:24 2007
From: erickson.adam.m at gmail.com (Adam Erickson)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:01:24 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux (Adam M. Erickson)
Message-ID: <7cd69fdf0711161301m5b9cb0b0y1cd530161fadb8a2@mail.gmail.com>

Started using linux at the beginning of this year just out of curiousity.
'Ubuntu 6.1', I was very amazed at how far Linux has come since the 90's
when I first reviewed it.

 I am going through Ferris and to many teachers rely on Microsoft programs
to educate so I cannot switch to Linux completly.

 But that hasn't stopped my plans of converting people. I have already
disposed of 2 NTservers (FTP and WEB) and replaced them with Ubuntu Servers
with no little cost and I love how easy Ubuntu made it for a LAMP install.
At home, after a Beryl install my wife fell in love with Linux also.

MAIN POINT THAT TURNED ME TO LINUX IS.......The ability to learn again. =)
Since so much for servers, networking and programming is open source I can
learn again.
I cannot afford M$ $oftware and $ervers.

 I look forward to meeting you all someday,

 Adam M. Erickson

 *"Catch a man a fish, and you can sell it to him. Teach a man to fish, and
you ruin a wonderful business opportunity."   Karl Marx*
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From drehfeldtusa at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 16:36:23 2007
From: drehfeldtusa at gmail.com (Douglas Rehfeldt)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:36:23 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <000001c82898$bd74fd40$02c8a8c0@bigburner>

Some of the responses to this thread shows the passion that people can have
for the "simple" computer.  A machine and tool that has both enriched and
cursed our lives.  As for the operating system and applications, all I can
say is to find something that works for you.  For me Linux offers a very low
cost and lots of flexibility.  As we all are aware, for the majority of
people the Microsoft Windows operating system is the answer.  I like having
a choice.


From bob.kline at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 16:51:50 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:51:50 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: <000001c82898$bd74fd40$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
References: 
	<000001c82898$bd74fd40$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2007 4:36 PM, Douglas Rehfeldt  wrote:

> Some of the responses to this thread shows the passion that people can
> have
> for the "simple" computer.  A machine and tool that has both enriched and
> cursed our lives.  As for the operating system and applications, all I can
> say is to find something that works for you.  For me Linux offers a very
> low
> cost and lots of flexibility.  As we all are aware, for the majority of
> people the Microsoft Windows operating system is the answer.  I like
> having
> a choice.
>
>
>
One could argue that the masses didn't
exactly choose M$.  They were in many
ways victims of a monopoly, one so
pervasive that corporations spent tens
of $billions training their employees in
the M$ way.  Now knowing how to use
windoz at some level,  they are unlikely
to change over to Linux.  And few companies
will now pay to help them do it.  It's just less
costly to go with the monopoly.  Simplicity
in the wrong sense.

The US gov't allowed M$ to rule the
software waves for a long time, crippling
many of those who dare depart from the
approved M$ course.

    -Bob
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From slestak989 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 14:59:20 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:59:20 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>		<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>		<473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>			
	
Message-ID: <473DF698.9090907@gmail.com>

Benjamin Flanders wrote:
>
>   I have to convince my wife that she doesn't need those darn
> Windows only time constrained trial Yahoo games.
>
>
>   
Im in the same boat with you there.  It's a shame that MSN Gaming Zone 
is what stands between our house being msft free.  Wonder if they will 
run in XP under virtualbox.  I will check.

From jtr at jrichards.org  Fri Nov 16 19:48:28 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:48:28 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] moving to GR
In-Reply-To: <20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <20071117004827.GA12152@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 09:51:18PM -0500, john-thomas richards wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 06:42:32PM -0500, Godwin wrote:
> > Welcome in deed Steve!  Good to have someone with "long time" knowledge...  ;-)
> 
> Speaking of that, and completely off the topic of this thread, I have used
> Linux now for ten years.  Who on this list has been using it longer than that?

In 1996 a friend mentioned Linux to me (it may have been 1995).  I was
intrigued.  In 1997 while browsing at the public library I came across a book
about Slackware.  The book came with a CD.  I installed Slackware and had
*zero* problems getting X to work (think about that for a moment...in *1997*).
Configuring X drove me batty, though.  Remember the old "virtual resolution"?
The desktop was larger than the actual display.  In other words, you could
have a 1024x768 desktop with 800x600 resolution.  Just scroll to the edge of
the screen to see the rest of your desktop.  I *hated* that and could not
figure out how to get rid of it.  I bought a CD (or two) from....drat.  I
cannot remember the name now (anyone?  Bueler?).  The disks were white with
black writing.  I bought a copy of Redhat and installed it.  I used Redhat for
a few years until my harddrive crashed.  I tried Debian and have not turned
back since.

Thank you, Topher, for introducing me to Linux.  :-)
-- 
john-thomas
------
Democracy is good. I say this because other systems are worse.
Jawaharlal Nehru

From topher at wcsg.org  Fri Nov 16 20:03:40 2007
From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:03:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [GRLUG] moving to GR
In-Reply-To: <20071117004827.GA12152@jrichards.org>
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	<20071117004827.GA12152@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: 

> In 1996 a friend mentioned Linux to me (it may have been 1995).
>
> Thank you, Topher, for introducing me to Linux.  :-)

It was 96, and we were standing about 80 yards southwest of the giant tire 
swing downtown during festival.  :)  My wife (then girlfriend) was mad at 
me after because I didn't introduce her.

Topher
Manager of Internet Services
Cornerstone University Radio

------
"...it has occurred to me that a man need know but two sentences to survive.
The first to ask for food, the second to tell a woman he loves her. If he
must dispense with one or the other, by all means let it be the first. For
surely, if you tell a woman you love her, she will feed you."
                         -- Louis L'Amour, The Walking Drum

From brousch at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 21:18:38 2007
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:18:38 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: <473DF698.9090907@gmail.com>
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	
	<473BCD12.4050808@gmail.com>
	
	
	
	
	<473DF698.9090907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

My first exposure to Linux was in 1995 or 1996. I was in Barnes and Noble
and bought TurboLinux - a whole operating system for $30! Well, I never did
get that running and ended up in Win95/98 for a long time.

I re-learned about Linux from a friend in a mud circa 2000. I installed
Pre-Fedora core Red Hat 6 (I believe) at home to act as a samba and modem
sharing server for my not-yet-wife and me. We actually played Diablo over a
shared modem link for a couple of years. I then bought a pre-installed Red
Hat 7 server from Dell in 2001 to replace the company's aging Netware
server.

I moved to a Suse server at home in 2002 and brought in a Suse email server
in about 2003. I used Fedora for a while, but yum gave me the fits. Suse
worked well until I needed to upgrade the distro, and then it was a
nightmare.

I never did get Debian to install, but I fell in love with Ubuntu Warty and
have been an Ubuntu man ever since. I got myself off XP at home with Warty,
and I moved my main workstation at work to Ubuntu with Dapper. We now run
Ubuntu Dapper server at for a database and samba network. Our email is now a
Dapper server (on the old Dell Red Hat hardware) with Zimbra.
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From slestak989 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 17:49:17 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:49:17 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: 
References: 	<000001c82898$bd74fd40$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
	
Message-ID: <473E1E6D.3020600@gmail.com>

Bob Kline wrote:
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2007 4:36 PM, Douglas Rehfeldt  > wrote:
>
>     Some of the responses to this thread shows the passion that people
>     can have
>     for the "simple" computer.  A machine and tool that has both
>     enriched and
>     cursed our lives.  As for the operating system and applications,
>     all I can
>     say is to find something that works for you.  For me Linux offers
>     a very low
>     cost and lots of flexibility.  As we all are aware, for the
>     majority of
>     people the Microsoft Windows operating system is the answer.  I
>     like having
>     a choice.
>
>
>      
>
> One could argue that the masses didn't
> exactly choose M$.  They were in many
> ways victims of a monopoly, one so
> pervasive that corporations spent tens
> of $billions training their employees in
> the M$ way.  Now knowing how to use
> windoz at some level,  they are unlikely
> to change over to Linux.  And few companies
> will now pay to help them do it.  It's just less
> costly to go with the monopoly.  Simplicity
> in the wrong sense.
>
> The US gov't allowed M$ to rule the
> software waves for a long time, crippling
> many of those who dare depart from the
> approved M$ course.
>
>     -Bob
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
My previous boss once said, "You'll never get fired for choosing Intel" 
when discussing Intel vs AMD.  THe same could be said for msft, its a 
safe choice for managers.  Funny, He was fired.  Wonder if it was for 
all the Intel servers we have in here..... 

From drehfeldtusa at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 21:43:27 2007
From: drehfeldtusa at gmail.com (Douglas Rehfeldt)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:43:27 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <000301c828c3$a2d1a080$02c8a8c0@bigburner>

"One could argue that the masses didn't exactly choose M$."  So, true.  I
always offer the Linux alternative at every chance.  Most people that I
speak with never realized that they have a choice of operating systems other
than Apple and Microsoft.  

> One could argue that the masses didn't
> exactly choose M$.  They were in many
> ways victims of a monopoly, one so
> pervasive that corporations spent tens
> of $billions training their employees in the M$ way.  Now 
> knowing how to use windoz at some level,  they are unlikely 
> to change over to Linux.  And few companies will now pay to 
> help them do it.  It's just less costly to go with the 
> monopoly.  Simplicity in the wrong sense.
> 
> The US gov't allowed M$ to rule the
> software waves for a long time, crippling many of those who 
> dare depart from the approved M$ course.
> 
>     -Bob


From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 22:46:09 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:46:09 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Passing button press events
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, 2007 1:50 PM, Justin Popa  wrote:
> Okay so here's the deal. I switched from Linux to Windows for a couple of
> reasons, and really, they were basically dumb reasons that I should be able
> to get around. So here's my thoughts.
>
> The biggest reason I dropped Linux was because of SLI not working(new
> motherboard, so not a problem anymore) and Ventrilo. For those who don't
> know, vent is an application that handles voice chat. When a user hits the
> 'Push To Talk' button they've configured in the program, the software begins
> to stream out the mic audio. In windows this is a simple app, and the push
> to talk button is found using DirectX. In Linux, that's 1 of 2 problems.
> Apparently X will only send keypresses to the current targeted application.
> Meaning if I'm alt-tabbed into WoW or Firefox, I can't use the PTT button.

FWIW, I've had no trouble using TeamSpeak on Ubuntu in the past.
Makes for a great use for the Windows key, actually.  But your friends
obviously don't use TeamSpeak.

> My thought is this:
>
> 1) Install VMWare over Ubuntu Feisty or Fed 8
> 2) Install Ventrilo on the VMWare server
> 3) Configure VMWare to use a second sound card for Mic Input and audio
> output, then pump the output from there into my 'Linux' audio card so I can
> hear it.
> 4) Here's the hard part: set up an app that can copy keypresses from the
> mouse /dev device and relay them to the VMWare window.
>
> I can handle 1-3 no problem, but I don't even know where to start on part 4.
> Anyone ever had to do anything like this?

Sounds awful complicated, but perhaps x2vnc might help with step 4?

-- 
:wq

From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 23:02:57 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:02:57 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux (Adam M. Erickson)
In-Reply-To: <7cd69fdf0711161301m5b9cb0b0y1cd530161fadb8a2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7cd69fdf0711161301m5b9cb0b0y1cd530161fadb8a2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

You should probably set GMail to send messages as plain text. (i.e.
without rich formatting.)  The GRLUG mailing list has an anti-HTML
filter in place that gets quite annoying.

As a side topic, is there any reason to keep the anti-HTML filter on
the GRLUG mailing list as it is?  Is there *anyone* on the list whose
mail client can't at least handle multi-part messages, and take the
text/plain part alone?

On Nov 16, 2007 4:01 PM, Adam Erickson  wrote:
> 
Started using linux at the beginning of this year just out of curiousity. 'Ubuntu 6.1', I was very amazed at how far Linux has come since the 90's when I first reviewed it. 

> 
 

> 

> 
I am going through Ferris and to many teachers rely on Microsoft programs to educate so I cannot switch to Linux completly. 

> 
 

> 

> 
But that hasn't stopped my plans of converting people. I have already disposed of 2 NTservers (FTP and WEB) and replaced them with Ubuntu Servers with no little cost and I love how easy Ubuntu made it for a LAMP install. At home, after a Beryl install my wife fell in love with Linux also.
> 

> 
 

> 
MAIN POINT THAT TURNED ME TO LINUX IS.......The ability to learn again. =) 

> 
Since so much for servers, networking and programming is open source I can learn again. 

> 
I cannot afford M$ $oftware and $ervers. 

> 
 

> 

> 
I look forward to meeting you all someday, 

> 
 

> 

> 
Adam M. Erickson 

> 
 

> 

> 
"Catch a man a fish, and you can sell it to him. Teach a man to fish, and you ruin a wonderful business opportunity."   Karl Marx 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
:wq

From jtr at jrichards.org  Sat Nov 17 09:37:58 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:37:58 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] moving to GR
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473A90AC.3030005@gmail.com>
	
	<8b72b8d10711141542w7e20f635j385394f8a4bb25bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071115025118.GA28372@jrichards.org>
	<20071117004827.GA12152@jrichards.org>
	
Message-ID: <20071117143758.GA7166@jrichards.org>

On Fri, Nov 16, 2007 at 08:03:40PM -0500, Topher wrote:
> > In 1996 a friend mentioned Linux to me (it may have been 1995).
> >
> > Thank you, Topher, for introducing me to Linux.  :-)
> 
> It was 96, and we were standing about 80 yards southwest of the giant tire 
> swing downtown during festival.  :)  My wife (then girlfriend) was mad at 
> me after because I didn't introduce her.

Wow.  For a brief moment I felt a sense of wonder that you would remember so
clearly  the details of introducing me to Linux.  It was clearly a momentous
occasion for you and it had nothing to do with me or Linux.  ;-)

Heh.
-- 
john-thomas
------
What's done to children, they will do to society.
Karl A. Menninger, psychiatrist (1893-1990)

From flanderb at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 12:17:05 2007
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:17:05 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Bash Scripting
Message-ID: 

I am having trouble with a shell script I am running.  I am trying to
use ffmpeg to transcode a video and the bash script seems to stop
after the first exec and doesn't do any of the following commands.
The first exec script is the first pass for encoding and this takes a
while.  I am thinking that bash isn't waiting for this finish before
trying to go on.  If you are interested the script is :
#!/bin/sh

[ $# -ne 2 -o "$1" = "-h" -o "$1" = "--help" ] &&
{ echo "${0##*/} input output"; exit 1; }

ffmpeg="/tmp/ffmpeg.log"

cmd="-r 29.97 -b 4096k -vcodec mpeg2video -aspect 4:3 -s 720x352 "
cmd="${cmd} -padtop 64 -padbottom 64 "
cmd="${cmd} -passlogfile ${ffmpeg} "

exec ffmpeg -i ${1} -pass 1 ${cmd} ${2}

rm ${2}

exec ffmpeg -i ${1} -pass 2 ${cmd} ${2}

rm ${ffmpeg}

-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From jeffd at i2k.com  Sat Nov 17 12:32:20 2007
From: jeffd at i2k.com (Jeff DeFouw)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:32:20 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Bash Scripting
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20071117173220.GA6801@blorp.plorb.com>

On Sat, Nov 17, 2007 at 12:17:05PM -0500, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> exec ffmpeg -i ${1} -pass 1 ${cmd} ${2}

You shouldn't be using exec.  exec means replace the shell with the 
command line.  Then there is no more script running (if successful).  
Remove the exec's.

-- 
Jeff DeFouw 

From flanderb at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 13:37:43 2007
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:37:43 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Bash Scripting
In-Reply-To: <20071117173220.GA6801@blorp.plorb.com>
References: 
	<20071117173220.GA6801@blorp.plorb.com>
Message-ID: 

Thanks Jeff

On Nov 17, 2007 12:32 PM, Jeff DeFouw  wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 17, 2007 at 12:17:05PM -0500, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> > exec ffmpeg -i ${1} -pass 1 ${cmd} ${2}
>
> You shouldn't be using exec.  exec means replace the shell with the
> command line.  Then there is no more script running (if successful).
> Remove the exec's.
>
> --
> Jeff DeFouw 
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From slestak989 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 16:49:18 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:49:18 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Bash Scripting
In-Reply-To: 
References: 	<20071117173220.GA6801@blorp.plorb.com>
	
Message-ID: <473F61DE.5050309@gmail.com>

Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> Thanks Jeff
>
> On Nov 17, 2007 12:32 PM, Jeff DeFouw  wrote:
>   
>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2007 at 12:17:05PM -0500, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
>>     
>>> exec ffmpeg -i ${1} -pass 1 ${cmd} ${2}
>>>       
>> You shouldn't be using exec.  exec means replace the shell with the
>> command line.  Then there is no more script running (if successful).
>> Remove the exec's.
>>
>> --
>> Jeff DeFouw 
>> _______________________________________________
>> grlug mailing list
>> grlug at grlug.org
>> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
>>     
>
>
>
>   
Ben, 

I saw your wiki page about Diggnation and tivo's.  Have you ever seen 
PyTivo?  Ive been using it for months and it works great.  It can make a 
pc on your lan appear as a tivo for Multi Room viewing, and it will use 
ffmpeg to automatically transcode appropriately.

Steve

From flanderb at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 22:24:55 2007
From: flanderb at gmail.com (Benjamin Flanders)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:24:55 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Bash Scripting
In-Reply-To: <473F61DE.5050309@gmail.com>
References: 
	<20071117173220.GA6801@blorp.plorb.com>
	
	<473F61DE.5050309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Wow that is really cool.

Thanks Steve

I'll look into this.  I think this will do exactly what I have been
trying to do.

On Nov 17, 2007 4:49 PM, Steve Romanow  wrote:
>
> Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> > Thanks Jeff
> >
> > On Nov 17, 2007 12:32 PM, Jeff DeFouw  wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, Nov 17, 2007 at 12:17:05PM -0500, Benjamin Flanders wrote:
> >>
> >>> exec ffmpeg -i ${1} -pass 1 ${cmd} ${2}
> >>>
> >> You shouldn't be using exec.  exec means replace the shell with the
> >> command line.  Then there is no more script running (if successful).
> >> Remove the exec's.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jeff DeFouw 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> grlug mailing list
> >> grlug at grlug.org
> >> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Ben,
>
> I saw your wiki page about Diggnation and tivo's.  Have you ever seen
> PyTivo?  Ive been using it for months and it works great.  It can make a
> pc on your lan appear as a tivo for Multi Room viewing, and it will use
> ffmpeg to automatically transcode appropriately.
>
> Steve
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
Share and Enjoy
Ben

From tehpopa at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 23:28:29 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 23:28:29 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux (Adam M. Erickson)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <7cd69fdf0711161301m5b9cb0b0y1cd530161fadb8a2@mail.gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: 

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I'm being very serious there because
people somehow think that I don't know teamspeak works in Linux. People just
dont realize that I have to convince 100 of my best friends to switch too.

Anyway, that software won't work. :( It's still the same problem basically.
The app has to have focus via the pointer. It's a basic X problem(not really
a problem). I know there's an app that some people use called ventrilocrtl.
It's pretty basic and it works decently well. The problem is that it only
monitors keyboards. If I could get it to monitor mouse i could get it all to
work.

On Nov 16, 2007 11:02 PM, Michael Mol  wrote:

> You should probably set GMail to send messages as plain text. (i.e.
> without rich formatting.)  The GRLUG mailing list has an anti-HTML
> filter in place that gets quite annoying.
>
> As a side topic, is there any reason to keep the anti-HTML filter on
> the GRLUG mailing list as it is?  Is there *anyone* on the list whose
> mail client can't at least handle multi-part messages, and take the
> text/plain part alone?
>
> On Nov 16, 2007 4:01 PM, Adam Erickson  wrote:
> > 
Started using linux at the beginning of this year just
> out of curiousity. 'Ubuntu 6.1', I was very amazed at how far
> Linux has come since the 90's when I first reviewed it.
> 

> > 
 

> > 

> > 
I am going through Ferris and to many teachers
> rely on Microsoft programs to educate so I cannot switch to Linux completly.
> 

> > 
 

> > 

> > 
But that hasn't stopped my plans of converting
> people. I have already disposed of 2 NTservers (FTP and WEB) and replaced
> them with Ubuntu Servers with no little cost and I love how easy Ubuntu made
> it for a LAMP install. At home, after a Beryl install my wife fell in love
> with Linux also.
> > 

> > 
 

> > 
MAIN POINT THAT TURNED ME TO LINUX IS.......The ability
> to learn again. =) 

> > 
Since so much for servers, networking and programming
> is open source I can learn again. 

> > 
I cannot afford M$ $oftware and $ervers.
> 

> > 
 

> > 

> > 
I look forward to meeting you all someday,
> 

> > 
 

> > 

> > 
Adam M. Erickson 

> > 
 

> > 

> > 
"Catch a man a fish, and
> you can sell it to him. Teach a man to fish, and you ruin a wonderful
> business opportunity."   Karl Marx
> 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> > 

> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
>
> --
> :wq
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From mikemol at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 02:28:43 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 02:28:43 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Describe your intro to Linux (Adam M. Erickson)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <7cd69fdf0711161301m5b9cb0b0y1cd530161fadb8a2@mail.gmail.com>
	
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 17, 2007 11:28 PM, Justin Popa  wrote:
> Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I'm being very serious there because
> people somehow think that I don't know teamspeak works in Linux. People just
> dont realize that I have to convince 100 of my best friends to switch too.

I mentioned that your friends probably weren't on Teamspeak.  The
reason I mentioned it was...

>
> Anyway, that software won't work. :( It's still the same problem basically.
> The app has to have focus via the pointer. It's a basic X problem(not really
> a problem). I know there's an app that some people use called ventrilocrtl.
> It's pretty basic and it works decently well. The problem is that it only
> monitors keyboards. If I could get it to monitor mouse i could get it all to
> work.

...Teamspeak didn't seem to need focus in order to catch my trigger
key, and I thought that information might be useful.  But if you want
it to catch a mouse click, I can see how that would be a different
story.

>
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2007 11:02 PM, Michael Mol  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > You should probably set GMail to send messages as plain text. (i.e.
> > without rich formatting.)  The GRLUG mailing list has an anti-HTML
> > filter in place that gets quite annoying.
> >
> > As a side topic, is there any reason to keep the anti-HTML filter on
> > the GRLUG mailing list as it is?  Is there *anyone* on the list whose
> > mail client can't at least handle multi-part messages, and take the
> > text/plain part alone?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 16, 2007 4:01 PM, Adam Erickson < erickson.adam.m at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 
Started using linux at the beginning of this year just
> out of curiousity. 'Ubuntu 6.1' ;, I was very amazed at how far Linux
> has come since the 90's when I first reviewed it. 

> > > 
 

> > > 

> > > 
I am going through Ferris and to many teachers
> rely on Microsoft programs to educate so I cannot switch to Linux completly.
> 

> > > 
 

> > > 

> > > 
But that hasn't stopped my plans of converting
> people. I have already disposed of 2 NTservers (FTP and WEB) and replaced
> them with Ubuntu Servers with no little cost and I love how easy Ubuntu made
> it for a LAMP install. At home, after a Beryl install my wife fell in love
> with Linux also.
> > > 

> > > 
 

> > > 
MAIN POINT THAT TURNED ME TO LINUX IS.......The ability
> to learn again. =) 

> > > 
Since so much for servers, networking and programming
> is open source I can learn again. 

> > > 
I cannot afford M$ $oftware and $ervers.
> 

> > > 
 

> > > 

> > > 
I look forward to meeting you all someday,
> 

> > > 
 

> > > 

> > > 
Adam M. Erickson 

> > > 
 

> > > 

> > > 
"Catch a man a fish, and
> you can sell it to him. Teach a man to fish, and you ruin a wonderful
> business opportunity."   Karl Marx
> 

> > > 

> > > 

> > > 

> > > 

> > > 

> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > grlug mailing list
> > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > :wq
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
:wq

From slestak989 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 23:38:02 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 23:38:02 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] TIVO with rabbit ears
Message-ID: <473FC1AA.9040101@gmail.com>

I am looking to save some money when I move, so I dont really want to 
get the obligatory 100+ bucks going to comcast.  anyone ever use tivo 
with rabbit ears?

tv consumes us now, so were looking forward to downscaling the choices 
available.

I dont have a problem with only having 3 channel choices (i mean thats 
how we grew up), but not being able to time shift will drive me batty.  
I cant imagine actually having to be in front of the tv at a given time 
for a show.

I will really miss Last One Standing.  ANyone catch that?  cool show.

From slestak989 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 23:49:41 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 23:49:41 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] antenna website
Message-ID: <473FC465.5040409@gmail.com>

THis is a cool site I found on tivo community forum

http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Stations.aspx

DOes kind of a survey of your property to the closest broadcasters and 
makes outdoor antenna recommendations.

How is the list for off-topic discussion?  Do you guys stick to strictly 
GNU talk?

From topher at wcsg.org  Sun Nov 18 08:14:50 2007
From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:14:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [GRLUG] TIVO with rabbit ears
In-Reply-To: <473FC1AA.9040101@gmail.com>
References: <473FC1AA.9040101@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

> I am looking to save some money when I move, so I dont really want to 
> get the obligatory 100+ bucks going to comcast.  anyone ever use tivo 
> with rabbit ears?
>
> tv consumes us now, so were looking forward to downscaling the choices
> available.

Get the $13/mo package from Comcast, it's WAY better than rabbit ears, and 
costs WAY less than their normal packages.  It's called Basic.

Topher
Manager of Internet Services
Cornerstone University Radio

------
"It's about sharing, Bob."
                         -- Larry The Cucumber

From justin.denick at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 12:14:21 2007
From: justin.denick at gmail.com (Justin Denick)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:14:21 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Passing button press events
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
Message-ID: <81e08d920711180914h60f02e65j314474ae616cf375@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 16, 2007 10:46 PM, Michael Mol  wrote:

> On Nov 16, 2007 1:50 PM, Justin Popa  wrote:
> > Okay so here's the deal. I switched from Linux to Windows for a couple
> of
> > reasons, and really, they were basically dumb reasons that I should be
> able
> > to get around. So here's my thoughts.
> >
> > The biggest reason I dropped Linux was because of SLI not working(new
> > motherboard, so not a problem anymore) and Ventrilo. For those who don't
> > know, vent is an application that handles voice chat. When a user hits
> the
> > 'Push To Talk' button they've configured in the program, the software
> begins
> > to stream out the mic audio. In windows this is a simple app, and the
> push
> > to talk button is found using DirectX. In Linux, that's 1 of 2 problems.
> > Apparently X will only send keypresses to the current targeted
> application.
> > Meaning if I'm alt-tabbed into WoW or Firefox, I can't use the PTT
> button.
>
> FWIW, I've had no trouble using TeamSpeak on Ubuntu in the past.
> Makes for a great use for the Windows key, actually.  But your friends
> obviously don't use TeamSpeak.
>
> > My thought is this:
> >
> > 1) Install VMWare over Ubuntu Feisty or Fed 8
> > 2) Install Ventrilo on the VMWare server
> > 3) Configure VMWare to use a second sound card for Mic Input and audio
> > output, then pump the output from there into my 'Linux' audio card so I
> can
> > hear it.
> > 4) Here's the hard part: set up an app that can copy keypresses from the
> > mouse /dev device and relay them to the VMWare window.
>

How does the app behave, under crossover.


> >
> > I can handle 1-3 no problem, but I don't even know where to start on
> part 4.
> > Anyone ever had to do anything like this?
>
> Sounds awful complicated, but perhaps x2vnc might help with step 4?
>
> --
> :wq
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
In vino veritas.
       [In wine there is truth.]
               -- Pliny
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From tehpopa at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 19:12:02 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:12:02 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Passing button press events
In-Reply-To: <81e08d920711180914h60f02e65j314474ae616cf375@mail.gmail.com>
References: 
	
	<81e08d920711180914h60f02e65j314474ae616cf375@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

I havent tried it, but I've tried Cedega and custom wine installs. However,
a quick google of codeweavers site shows that users w/ Crossover have the
same problem. It looks like it keeps coming back to X not allowing non-focus
apps to see the keypresses. It also looks like more and more people think
the solution(forgive me, I'm far from an expert here) would be to use the
/dev/input device. It would be nice if I could just link a serial mouse /dev
device to the USB device and set up a serial mouse in VMware. I know one guy
had a pretty simple solution that I might just have to use if I want this to
work. He took an old serial mouse and hacked it up. He then took the circuit
board and one button out and mounted them inside his main linux mouse, and
replaced one of the normal buttons on it with the serial circuits button.
>From there he just wrapped the cords together and he's all set.

On Nov 18, 2007 12:14 PM, Justin Denick  wrote:

>
>
> On Nov 16, 2007 10:46 PM, Michael Mol  wrote:
>
> > On Nov 16, 2007 1:50 PM, Justin Popa  wrote:
> > > Okay so here's the deal. I switched from Linux to Windows for a couple
> > of
> > > reasons, and really, they were basically dumb reasons that I should be
> > able
> > > to get around. So here's my thoughts.
> > >
> > > The biggest reason I dropped Linux was because of SLI not working(new
> > > motherboard, so not a problem anymore) and Ventrilo. For those who
> > don't
> > > know, vent is an application that handles voice chat. When a user hits
> > the
> > > 'Push To Talk' button they've configured in the program, the software
> > begins
> > > to stream out the mic audio. In windows this is a simple app, and the
> > push
> > > to talk button is found using DirectX. In Linux, that's 1 of 2
> > problems.
> > > Apparently X will only send keypresses to the current targeted
> > application.
> > > Meaning if I'm alt-tabbed into WoW or Firefox, I can't use the PTT
> > button.
> >
> > FWIW, I've had no trouble using TeamSpeak on Ubuntu in the past.
> > Makes for a great use for the Windows key, actually.  But your friends
> > obviously don't use TeamSpeak.
> >
> >
> > > My thought is this:
> > >
> > > 1) Install VMWare over Ubuntu Feisty or Fed 8
> > > 2) Install Ventrilo on the VMWare server
> > > 3) Configure VMWare to use a second sound card for Mic Input and audio
> > > output, then pump the output from there into my 'Linux' audio card so
> > I can
> > > hear it.
> > > 4) Here's the hard part: set up an app that can copy keypresses from
> > the
> > > mouse /dev device and relay them to the VMWare window.
> >
>
> How does the app behave, under crossover.
>
>
> > >
> > > I can handle 1-3 no problem, but I don't even know where to start on
> > part 4.
> > > Anyone ever had to do anything like this?
> >
> > Sounds awful complicated, but perhaps x2vnc might help with step 4?
> >
> > --
> > :wq
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
>
> --
> In vino veritas.
>        [In wine there is truth.]
>                -- Pliny
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From slestak989 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 19:45:37 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:45:37 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] TIVO with rabbit ears
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473FC1AA.9040101@gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: <4740DCB1.7050704@gmail.com>

Topher wrote:
>> I am looking to save some money when I move, so I dont really want to 
>> get the obligatory 100+ bucks going to comcast.  anyone ever use tivo 
>> with rabbit ears?
>>
>> tv consumes us now, so were looking forward to downscaling the choices
>> available.
>>     
>
> Get the $13/mo package from Comcast, it's WAY better than rabbit ears, and 
> costs WAY less than their normal packages.  It's called Basic.
>
> Topher
> Manager of Internet Services
> Cornerstone University Radio
>
> ------
> "It's about sharing, Bob."
>                          -- Larry The Cucumber
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>   
I thought about that.  I have the HD package with comcast now, and 
between hd-dvr, digital voice, and internet, they get nearly 170 a month 
from me.  I think I may get an roof mount antenna, then I can get a 
series 3 tivo to record hd content.  In the long term, Comcast is too 
expensive.  Is verizon fios in GR?  Two of my friends have it and it is 
wonderful and cheap.  FIber all the way to the house.

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 20:29:43 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:29:43 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] TIVO with rabbit ears
In-Reply-To: <4740DCB1.7050704@gmail.com>
References: <473FC1AA.9040101@gmail.com>
	
	<4740DCB1.7050704@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Verizon does not serve the GR area.
And FIOS isn't available even the
whole area that Verizon serves.

But at least it's coming in it's service
area.  Unrelated to Verizon,  The Houston
and Seattle areas are also getting fiber
to the home.

GR?  Even the wireless project seems to
have gone away.

    -Bob


On Nov 18, 2007 7:45 PM, Steve Romanow  wrote:

> Topher wrote:
> >> I am looking to save some money when I move, so I dont really want to
> >> get the obligatory 100+ bucks going to comcast.  anyone ever use tivo
> >> with rabbit ears?
> >>
> >> tv consumes us now, so were looking forward to downscaling the choices
> >> available.
> >>
> >
> > Get the $13/mo package from Comcast, it's WAY better than rabbit ears,
> and
> > costs WAY less than their normal packages.  It's called Basic.
> >
> > Topher
> > Manager of Internet Services
> > Cornerstone University Radio
> >
> > ------
> > "It's about sharing, Bob."
> >                          -- Larry The Cucumber
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
> I thought about that.  I have the HD package with comcast now, and
> between hd-dvr, digital voice, and internet, they get nearly 170 a month
> from me.  I think I may get an roof mount antenna, then I can get a
> series 3 tivo to record hd content.  In the long term, Comcast is too
> expensive.  Is verizon fios in GR?  Two of my friends have it and it is
> wonderful and cheap.  FIber all the way to the house.
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From tehpopa at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 21:14:40 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:14:40 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] TIVO with rabbit ears
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473FC1AA.9040101@gmail.com>
	
	<4740DCB1.7050704@gmail.com>
	
Message-ID: 

www.uverseusers.com

ATT Has a FTTP/FTTN service coming to GR. Reports say anywhere from 30-90
days.

On Nov 18, 2007 8:29 PM, Bob Kline  wrote:

> Verizon does not serve the GR area.
> And FIOS isn't available even the
> whole area that Verizon serves.
>
> But at least it's coming in it's service
> area.  Unrelated to Verizon,  The Houston
> and Seattle areas are also getting fiber
> to the home.
>
> GR?  Even the wireless project seems to
> have gone away.
>
>     -Bob
>
>
>
> On Nov 18, 2007 7:45 PM, Steve Romanow  wrote:
>
> > Topher wrote:
> > >> I am looking to save some money when I move, so I dont really want to
> >
> > >> get the obligatory 100+ bucks going to comcast.  anyone ever use tivo
> > >> with rabbit ears?
> > >>
> > >> tv consumes us now, so were looking forward to downscaling the
> > choices
> > >> available.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Get the $13/mo package from Comcast, it's WAY better than rabbit ears,
> > and
> > > costs WAY less than their normal packages.  It's called Basic.
> > >
> > > Topher
> > > Manager of Internet Services
> > > Cornerstone University Radio
> > >
> > > ------
> > > "It's about sharing, Bob."
> > >                          -- Larry The Cucumber
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > grlug mailing list
> > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > >
> > I thought about that.  I have the HD package with comcast now, and
> > between hd-dvr, digital voice, and internet, they get nearly 170 a month
> > from me.  I think I may get an roof mount antenna, then I can get a
> > series 3 tivo to record hd content.  In the long term, Comcast is too
> > expensive.  Is verizon fios in GR?  Two of my friends have it and it is
> > wonderful and cheap.  FIber all the way to the house.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From bob.kline at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 21:21:57 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:21:57 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] TIVO with rabbit ears
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473FC1AA.9040101@gmail.com>
	
	<4740DCB1.7050704@gmail.com>
	
	
Message-ID: 

Thanks for the heads up.  Now to hope
it comes down my street.  If it does,  I'll
drop Comcast PDQ,  unless it bumps its
bandwidth up substantially.

Without doing the same to the price of
course...

One figure I've read is that Comcast
allocates 45Mbps per 330 customers.
That should help explain that time-of-day
congestion....

    -Bob


On Nov 18, 2007 9:14 PM, Justin Popa  wrote:

> www.uverseusers.com
>
> ATT Has a FTTP/FTTN service coming to GR. Reports say anywhere from 30-90
> days.
>
>
> On Nov 18, 2007 8:29 PM, Bob Kline < bob.kline at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Verizon does not serve the GR area.
> > And FIOS isn't available even the
> > whole area that Verizon serves.
> >
> > But at least it's coming in it's service
> > area.  Unrelated to Verizon,  The Houston
> > and Seattle areas are also getting fiber
> > to the home.
> >
> > GR?  Even the wireless project seems to
> > have gone away.
> >
> >     -Bob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 18, 2007 7:45 PM, Steve Romanow < slestak989 at gmail.com > wrote:
> >
> > > Topher wrote:
> > > >> I am looking to save some money when I move, so I dont really want
> > > to
> > > >> get the obligatory 100+ bucks going to comcast.  anyone ever use
> > > tivo
> > > >> with rabbit ears?
> > > >>
> > > >> tv consumes us now, so were looking forward to downscaling the
> > > choices
> > > >> available.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Get the $13/mo package from Comcast, it's WAY better than rabbit
> > > ears, and
> > > > costs WAY less than their normal packages.  It's called Basic.
> > > >
> > > > Topher
> > > > Manager of Internet Services
> > > > Cornerstone University Radio
> > > >
> > > > ------
> > > > "It's about sharing, Bob."
> > > >                          -- Larry The Cucumber
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > grlug mailing list
> > > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > > >
> > > I thought about that.  I have the HD package with comcast now, and
> > > between hd-dvr, digital voice, and internet, they get nearly 170 a
> > > month
> > > from me.  I think I may get an roof mount antenna, then I can get a
> > > series 3 tivo to record hd content.  In the long term, Comcast is too
> > > expensive.  Is verizon fios in GR?  Two of my friends have it and it
> > > is
> > > wonderful and cheap.  FIber all the way to the house.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > grlug mailing list
> > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From tehpopa at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 23:00:16 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:00:16 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] TIVO with rabbit ears
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473FC1AA.9040101@gmail.com>
	
	<4740DCB1.7050704@gmail.com>
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

I'd believe it. You can tell if you'll have service if you can find a VRAD
nearby. It's a white box, like the green ATT ones in size(large), and it has
a power meter and fiber pole outside.

On Nov 18, 2007 9:21 PM, Bob Kline  wrote:

> Thanks for the heads up.  Now to hope
> it comes down my street.  If it does,  I'll
> drop Comcast PDQ,  unless it bumps its
> bandwidth up substantially.
>
> Without doing the same to the price of
> course...
>
> One figure I've read is that Comcast
> allocates 45Mbps per 330 customers.
> That should help explain that time-of-day
> congestion....
>
>     -Bob
>
>
> On Nov 18, 2007 9:14 PM, Justin Popa < tehpopa at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > www.uverseusers.com
> >
> > ATT Has a FTTP/FTTN service coming to GR. Reports say anywhere from
> > 30-90 days.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 18, 2007 8:29 PM, Bob Kline < bob.kline at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Verizon does not serve the GR area.
> > > And FIOS isn't available even the
> > > whole area that Verizon serves.
> > >
> > > But at least it's coming in it's service
> > > area.  Unrelated to Verizon,  The Houston
> > > and Seattle areas are also getting fiber
> > > to the home.
> > >
> > > GR?  Even the wireless project seems to
> > > have gone away.
> > >
> > >     -Bob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Nov 18, 2007 7:45 PM, Steve Romanow < slestak989 at gmail.com > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Topher wrote:
> > > > >> I am looking to save some money when I move, so I dont really
> > > > want to
> > > > >> get the obligatory 100+ bucks going to comcast.  anyone ever use
> > > > tivo
> > > > >> with rabbit ears?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> tv consumes us now, so were looking forward to downscaling the
> > > > choices
> > > > >> available.
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > Get the $13/mo package from Comcast, it's WAY better than rabbit
> > > > ears, and
> > > > > costs WAY less than their normal packages.  It's called Basic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Topher
> > > > > Manager of Internet Services
> > > > > Cornerstone University Radio
> > > > >
> > > > > ------
> > > > > "It's about sharing, Bob."
> > > > >                          -- Larry The Cucumber
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > grlug mailing list
> > > > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > > > >
> > > > I thought about that.  I have the HD package with comcast now, and
> > > > between hd-dvr, digital voice, and internet, they get nearly 170 a
> > > > month
> > > > from me.  I think I may get an roof mount antenna, then I can get a
> > > > series 3 tivo to record hd content.  In the long term, Comcast is
> > > > too
> > > > expensive.  Is verizon fios in GR?  Two of my friends have it and it
> > > > is
> > > > wonderful and cheap.  FIber all the way to the house.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > grlug mailing list
> > > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > grlug mailing list
> > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From bob.kline at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 23:14:07 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:14:07 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] TIVO with rabbit ears
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473FC1AA.9040101@gmail.com>
	
	<4740DCB1.7050704@gmail.com>
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

Have you seen one in the area yet?
As in,  it's actively being installed?

Anyone else?

This is all quite amusing.  AT&T has
spent a lot of money moving fiber
access further out.  What I read says
that it making twisted pair lengths
3,000 feet, which is how it gets enough
badwidth over DSL to support its TV
service.  And I suspect it could offer
more than the "up to" 6Mbps DSL service
if it wanted to.

So apparently it will run that fiber the
last 3,000 feet in some cases.

    -Bob


On Nov 18, 2007 11:00 PM, Justin Popa  wrote:

> I'd believe it. You can tell if you'll have service if you can find a VRAD
> nearby. It's a white box, like the green ATT ones in size(large), and it has
> a power meter and fiber pole outside.
>
> On Nov 18, 2007 9:21 PM, Bob Kline  wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the heads up.  Now to hope
> > it comes down my street.  If it does,  I'll
> > drop Comcast PDQ,  unless it bumps its
> > bandwidth up substantially.
> >
> > Without doing the same to the price of
> > course...
> >
> > One figure I've read is that Comcast
> > allocates 45Mbps per 330 customers.
> > That should help explain that time-of-day
> > congestion....
> >
> >     -Bob
> >
> >
> > On Nov 18, 2007 9:14 PM, Justin Popa < tehpopa at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > www.uverseusers.com
> > >
> > > ATT Has a FTTP/FTTN service coming to GR. Reports say anywhere from
> > > 30-90 days.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Nov 18, 2007 8:29 PM, Bob Kline < bob.kline at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Verizon does not serve the GR area.
> > > > And FIOS isn't available even the
> > > > whole area that Verizon serves.
> > > >
> > > > But at least it's coming in it's service
> > > > area.  Unrelated to Verizon,  The Houston
> > > > and Seattle areas are also getting fiber
> > > > to the home.
> > > >
> > > > GR?  Even the wireless project seems to
> > > > have gone away.
> > > >
> > > >     -Bob
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 18, 2007 7:45 PM, Steve Romanow < slestak989 at gmail.com >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Topher wrote:
> > > > > >> I am looking to save some money when I move, so I dont really
> > > > > want to
> > > > > >> get the obligatory 100+ bucks going to comcast.  anyone ever
> > > > > use tivo
> > > > > >> with rabbit ears?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> tv consumes us now, so were looking forward to downscaling the
> > > > > choices
> > > > > >> available.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Get the $13/mo package from Comcast, it's WAY better than rabbit
> > > > > ears, and
> > > > > > costs WAY less than their normal packages.  It's called Basic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Topher
> > > > > > Manager of Internet Services
> > > > > > Cornerstone University Radio
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------
> > > > > > "It's about sharing, Bob."
> > > > > >                          -- Larry The Cucumber
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > grlug mailing list
> > > > > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > > > > >
> > > > > I thought about that.  I have the HD package with comcast now, and
> > > > > between hd-dvr, digital voice, and internet, they get nearly 170 a
> > > > > month
> > > > > from me.  I think I may get an roof mount antenna, then I can get
> > > > > a
> > > > > series 3 tivo to record hd content.  In the long term, Comcast is
> > > > > too
> > > > > expensive.  Is verizon fios in GR?  Two of my friends have it and
> > > > > it is
> > > > > wonderful and cheap.  FIber all the way to the house.
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > grlug mailing list
> > > > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > grlug mailing list
> > > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > grlug mailing list
> > > grlug at grlug.org
> > > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From jtr at jrichards.org  Mon Nov 19 08:29:06 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:29:06 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] TIVO with rabbit ears
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473FC1AA.9040101@gmail.com>
	
	<4740DCB1.7050704@gmail.com>
	
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: <20071119132906.GA10970@jrichards.org>

On Sun, Nov 18, 2007 at 11:14:07PM -0500, Bob Kline wrote:
> Have you seen one in the area yet?
> As in,  it's actively being installed?
> 
> Anyone else?
> 
> This is all quite amusing.  AT&T has
> spent a lot of money moving fiber
> access further out.  What I read says
> that it making twisted pair lengths
> 3,000 feet, which is how it gets enough
> badwidth over DSL to support its TV
> service.  And I suspect it could offer
> more than the "up to" 6Mbps DSL service
> if it wanted to.
> 
> So apparently it will run that fiber the
> last 3,000 feet in some cases.

I have one two houses from mine.  I live in the northeast (Plainfield & Knapp
area).  :-)  Actually, there are several in my area.

[sniiiiiiiip]
-- 
john-thomas
------
I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding
because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they
have not a single political argument left.
Margaret Thatcher

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 08:36:04 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:36:04 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] TIVO with rabbit ears
In-Reply-To: <20071119132906.GA10970@jrichards.org>
References: <473FC1AA.9040101@gmail.com>
	
	<4740DCB1.7050704@gmail.com>
	
	
	
	
	
	<20071119132906.GA10970@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 19, 2007 8:29 AM, john-thomas richards  wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 18, 2007 at 11:14:07PM -0500, Bob Kline wrote:
> > Have you seen one in the area yet?
> > As in,  it's actively being installed?
> >
> > Anyone else?
> >
> > This is all quite amusing.  AT&T has
> > spent a lot of money moving fiber
> > access further out.  What I read says
> > that it making twisted pair lengths
> > 3,000 feet, which is how it gets enough
> > badwidth over DSL to support its TV
> > service.  And I suspect it could offer
> > more than the "up to" 6Mbps DSL service
> > if it wanted to.
> >
> > So apparently it will run that fiber the
> > last 3,000 feet in some cases.
>
> I have one two houses from mine.  I live in the northeast (Plainfield &
> Knapp
> area).  :-)  Actually, there are several in my area.
>
> [sniiiiiiiip]
> --
> john-thomas
>

So you can get the service if you want it?

If so,  how much?

    -Bob

"A gentleman is a person who can play
the accordion,  but doesn't."
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From jtr at jrichards.org  Mon Nov 19 08:52:57 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:52:57 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] TIVO with rabbit ears
In-Reply-To: 
References: <473FC1AA.9040101@gmail.com>
	
	<4740DCB1.7050704@gmail.com>
	
	
	
	
	
	<20071119132906.GA10970@jrichards.org>
	
Message-ID: <20071119135257.GA11222@jrichards.org>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2007 at 08:36:04AM -0500, Bob Kline wrote:
> On Nov 19, 2007 8:29 AM, john-thomas richards  wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Nov 18, 2007 at 11:14:07PM -0500, Bob Kline wrote:
> > > Have you seen one in the area yet?
> > > As in,  it's actively being installed?
> > >
> > > Anyone else?
> > >
> > > This is all quite amusing.  AT&T has
> > > spent a lot of money moving fiber
> > > access further out.  What I read says
> > > that it making twisted pair lengths
> > > 3,000 feet, which is how it gets enough
> > > badwidth over DSL to support its TV
> > > service.  And I suspect it could offer
> > > more than the "up to" 6Mbps DSL service
> > > if it wanted to.
> > >
> > > So apparently it will run that fiber the
> > > last 3,000 feet in some cases.
> >
> > I have one two houses from mine.  I live in the northeast (Plainfield &
> > Knapp
> > area).  :-)  Actually, there are several in my area.
> >
> > [sniiiiiiiip]
> 
> So you can get the service if you want it?
> 
> If so,  how much?

No, it is not available yet.  According to the link you posted the service
takes several months to be available after the "VRAD's" (the boxes on the
corner) are installed.  If I recall, these were installed in the spring.  If
you drive down Knapp east from Plainfield you will see one every other block
or so, very near Knapp.

The prices are definitely cheaper than Comcast cable + internet.  Follow this
link and select a package to the right.  The "U200" package starts at $74 per
months with 200 channels.  The price includes three receivers (one is a DVR).

https://uverse1.att.com/un/loadSelectOfferAction.do?From_UMA_Iframe=True&UMA_Launch_Url=/uma/RetrieveCatalogContent?ITEMTYPE=COMPONENT&ITEMID=2000466&DOCTYPE=LEARNMORE&FORMAT=IFRAME&APPID=AMSS
-- 
john-thomas
------
Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is
writing a book.
Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator and writer (106-43 BCE)

From cdubois at n-vint.com  Mon Nov 19 10:47:14 2007
From: cdubois at n-vint.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:47:14 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF90DA@NVMBX01.nvint.local>



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Rudas [mailto:audiotech50 at gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:05 AM
To: linux-user at egr.msu.edu; The WFTL LUG; MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?

Here's a headline for you:

"90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"


Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
REALLY embarrassing to MS.  "The Vista
Death Watch"


From slestak989 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 14:50:21 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:50:21 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF90DA@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF90DA@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <4741E8FD.5020006@gmail.com>

Casey DuBois wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Rudas [mailto:audiotech50 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:05 AM
> To: linux-user at egr.msu.edu; The WFTL LUG; MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
>
> Here's a headline for you:
>
> "90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
> 
>
> Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
> REALLY embarrassing to MS.  "The Vista
> Death Watch"
> 
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>   
I had the sense when I first installed vista (after having beryl 
already), Boy, this is an embarrassment for a multi-billion dollar 
company.  The eye-candy looked amateurish, and the performance was not 
there, copmpared to xp and ubuntu.

From adderd at kkmfg.com  Mon Nov 19 14:55:31 2007
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:55:31 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4741E8FD.5020006@gmail.com>
References: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF90DA@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<4741E8FD.5020006@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4741EA33.7020001@kkmfg.com>

>
> I had the sense when I first installed vista (after having beryl 
> already), Boy, this is an embarrassment for a multi-billion dollar 
> company.  The eye-candy looked amateurish, and the performance was not 
> there, copmpared to xp and ubuntu.
> _______________________________________________
>   

Well... Yes and no... Vista is no Beryl (but what is... Beryl makes OSX 
look like kid stuff) but unlike Beryl the Aero interface is usually 
stable and seems to work for most people. I've seen my fair share of 
stupid things happen with Beryl. Of course, in general 3D just isn't to 
a really great point on linux just yet. Still, I have an nVidia 8700GT 
and while it works in Beryl and the effects are fast the system is less 
stable and some things just seem to not work anymore.

Personally I'd have to call Aero a desperate measure to answer to OSX 
but really Aero isn't as bad as people try to make it out to be. It 
looks decent. On a 8700GT it runs quite well. It just doesn't have the 
same level of eye candy as other interfaces.

The performance of the system itself though... It eats ram like 600 
pound women eat cake. I can run 64 bit linux and still use 1/2 the RAM 
that Vista uses just to run. Not to mention the vista characteristic 
lagging.

From ndrier at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 15:11:08 2007
From: ndrier at gmail.com (Nathan Drier)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:11:08 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4741E8FD.5020006@gmail.com>
References: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF90DA@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<4741E8FD.5020006@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4741EDDC.3050308@gmail.com>



Steve Romanow wrote:
> Casey DuBois wrote:
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Rudas [mailto:audiotech50 at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:05 AM
>> To: linux-user at egr.msu.edu; The WFTL LUG; MDLUG's Main discussion list
>> Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
>>
>> Here's a headline for you:
>>
>> "90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
>> 
>>
>> Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
>> REALLY embarrassing to MS.  "The Vista
>> Death Watch"
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> grlug mailing list
>> grlug at grlug.org
>> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>   
>>     
> I had the sense when I first installed vista (after having beryl 
> already), Boy, this is an embarrassment for a multi-billion dollar 
> company.  The eye-candy looked amateurish, and the performance was not 
> there, copmpared to xp and ubuntu.
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>   
Didn't XP get the same kind of welcome? 

We all agree that Linux is a superior OS for our needs; Security,
footprint, stability, scalability, cost, and flexibility are all reasons
that I choose to spin up Debian vs windows.  Its just such a huge
mystery to the other 85% of computer users,  even though it has grown
VASTLY over the past 5 or so years (thanks ubuntu).

I'd love for this to be the last straw for consumers dealing with MS and
have them all switch to Open Source,  but I doubt that will happen.  It
will all come down to do we adopt something completely new,  or do we
upgrade to something familiar and deal with the bugs.  Most people stick
with what they know.

Maybe i'm wrong,  maybe MS will die a horrible death and some flavor of
Linux will take over the desktop arena.  We can only hope.

From jjfoerch at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 20 10:54:34 2007
From: jjfoerch at earthlink.net (John J Foerch)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:54:34 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4741EA33.7020001@kkmfg.com>
References: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF90DA@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<4741E8FD.5020006@gmail.com> <4741EA33.7020001@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <18243.826.143855.480973@gargle.gargle.HOWL>

Collin writes:
 > Well... Yes and no... Vista is no Beryl (but what is... Beryl makes OSX 
 > look like kid stuff) but unlike Beryl the Aero interface is usually 
 > stable and seems to work for most people. I've seen my fair share of 
 > stupid things happen with Beryl. Of course, in general 3D just isn't to 
 > a really great point on linux just yet. Still, I have an nVidia 8700GT 
 > and while it works in Beryl and the effects are fast the system is less 
 > stable and some things just seem to not work anymore.
 > 
 > Personally I'd have to call Aero a desperate measure to answer to OSX 
 > but really Aero isn't as bad as people try to make it out to be. It 
 > looks decent. On a 8700GT it runs quite well. It just doesn't have the 
 > same level of eye candy as other interfaces.

On my desktop, I have ZERO window decoration--no frames, no title
bars, no icons, no "start bar".  (yeah ratpoison!)  I wonder when the
rest of the world is going to catch up with the *real* forefront of
technology--pure simplicity.   Though in full disclosure, I am
strongly considering switching to the window manager xmonad, which
puts a red frame around the focused window.  :)

--John

From topher at wcsg.org  Tue Nov 20 11:01:35 2007
From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:01:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [GRLUG] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <18243.826.143855.480973@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
References: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF90DA@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<4741E8FD.5020006@gmail.com> <4741EA33.7020001@kkmfg.com>
	<18243.826.143855.480973@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
Message-ID: 

> On my desktop, I have ZERO window decoration--no frames, no title
> bars, no icons, no "start bar".  (yeah ratpoison!)  I wonder when the
> rest of the world is going to catch up with the *real* forefront of
> technology--pure simplicity.   Though in full disclosure, I am
> strongly considering switching to the window manager xmonad, which
> puts a red frame around the focused window.  :)

I use Enlightenment in much the same way.  Firefox, audacious, and all my 
terms are borderless.  I leave borders on things that I may want to shade.

Topher
Manager of Internet Services
Cornerstone University Radio

------
"Changing window managers is like going on vacation and coming home again."
 			-- Jason Weed

From matt at michielsen.us  Tue Nov 20 11:44:54 2007
From: matt at michielsen.us (Matt Michielsen)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:44:54 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF90DA@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<4741E8FD.5020006@gmail.com> <4741EA33.7020001@kkmfg.com>
	<18243.826.143855.480973@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
	
Message-ID: 

I've been using ion2 and ion3 quite a bit lately.  Check them out if you've
never used a tiling window manager before.  I haven't used ratpoison since
my DX4 100MHz laptop, but I used to love that as well.

On Nov 20, 2007 11:01 AM, Topher  wrote:

> > On my desktop, I have ZERO window decoration--no frames, no title
> > bars, no icons, no "start bar".  (yeah ratpoison!)  I wonder when the
> > rest of the world is going to catch up with the *real* forefront of
> > technology--pure simplicity.   Though in full disclosure, I am
> > strongly considering switching to the window manager xmonad, which
> > puts a red frame around the focused window.  :)
>
> I use Enlightenment in much the same way.  Firefox, audacious, and all my
> terms are borderless.  I leave borders on things that I may want to shade.
>
> Topher
> Manager of Internet Services
> Cornerstone University Radio
>
> ------
> "Changing window managers is like going on vacation and coming home
> again."
>                        -- Jason Weed
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From mikemol at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 11:52:25 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:52:25 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <18243.826.143855.480973@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
References: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF90DA@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<4741E8FD.5020006@gmail.com> <4741EA33.7020001@kkmfg.com>
	<18243.826.143855.480973@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 20, 2007 10:54 AM, John J Foerch  wrote:
> Collin writes:
[snip]
>  > Personally I'd have to call Aero a desperate measure to answer to OSX
>  > but really Aero isn't as bad as people try to make it out to be. It
>  > looks decent. On a 8700GT it runs quite well. It just doesn't have the
>  > same level of eye candy as other interfaces.
>
> On my desktop, I have ZERO window decoration--no frames, no title
> bars, no icons, no "start bar".  (yeah ratpoison!)  I wonder when the
> rest of the world is going to catch up with the *real* forefront of
> technology--pure simplicity.   Though in full disclosure, I am
> strongly considering switching to the window manager xmonad, which
> puts a red frame around the focused window.  :)

You know, that's an interesting point.  At home, I've got a single
1280x1024 screen, and I prefer to have all of my applications are
maximized.  Since I've been doing a lot with IRC lately, I'll usually
leave the foreground window slightly shorter, so I can see the latest
in the channel.

Perhaps a paned window manager would work better for me.  I've been
working with Visual Studio at work, and I take advantage of advanced
toolbar behaviors.  Moving windows around like that could be
convenient.

-- 
:wq

From mikemol at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 11:54:20 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:54:20 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF90DA@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<4741E8FD.5020006@gmail.com> <4741EA33.7020001@kkmfg.com>
	<18243.826.143855.480973@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
	
	
Message-ID: 

Well, I'll be.  I was just thinking about something like that.  I'll
try it when I get home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiling_window_manager

On Nov 20, 2007 11:44 AM, Matt Michielsen  wrote:
> I've been using ion2 and ion3 quite a bit lately.  Check them out if you've
> never used a tiling window manager before.  I haven't used ratpoison since
> my DX4 100MHz laptop, but I used to love that as well.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 20, 2007 11:01 AM, Topher  wrote:
> >
> >
> > > On my desktop, I have ZERO window decoration--no frames, no title
> > > bars, no icons, no "start bar".  (yeah ratpoison!)  I wonder when the
> > > rest of the world is going to catch up with the *real* forefront of
> > > technology--pure simplicity.   Though in full disclosure, I am
> > > strongly considering switching to the window manager xmonad, which
> > > puts a red frame around the focused window.  :)
> >
> > I use Enlightenment in much the same way.  Firefox, audacious, and all my
> > terms are borderless.  I leave borders on things that I may want to shade.
> >
> > Topher
> > Manager of Internet Services
> > Cornerstone University Radio
> >
> > ------
> > "Changing window managers is like going on vacation and coming home
> again."
> >                        -- Jason Weed
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
:wq

From jtr at jrichards.org  Tue Nov 20 13:26:39 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:26:39 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF90DA@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<4741E8FD.5020006@gmail.com> <4741EA33.7020001@kkmfg.com>
	<18243.826.143855.480973@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
	
Message-ID: <20071120182639.GA14904@jrichards.org>

On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 11:01:35AM -0500, Topher wrote:
> > On my desktop, I have ZERO window decoration--no frames, no title
> > bars, no icons, no "start bar".  (yeah ratpoison!)  I wonder when the
> > rest of the world is going to catch up with the *real* forefront of
> > technology--pure simplicity.   Though in full disclosure, I am
> > strongly considering switching to the window manager xmonad, which
> > puts a red frame around the focused window.  :)
> 
> I use Enlightenment in much the same way.  Firefox, audacious, and all my 
> terms are borderless.  I leave borders on things that I may want to shade.

Dude, with the monitor that sits on (read "covers") your desk, why would you
ever need to shade *anything*?  Seriously, my television is smaller than your
monitor.

Professional geeks get all the toys...

;-)
-- 
john-thomas
------
Metaphysics means only an unusually obstinate attempt to think clearly
and consistently.
William James

From dond at standalelumber.com  Tue Nov 20 14:35:43 2007
From: dond at standalelumber.com (Don Wood)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:35:43 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF90DA@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF90DA@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <1195587344.15876.17.camel@donw-laptop>

I'm a Linux geek, not a guru. I've installed umpteen distros and played
with them over the years and I've always been left wanting when it was
all said and done. I've deployed ltsp at work in one department as a
test and it's been great thus far. Any new equipment we buy has never
had Vista since I played with a Vista system once and I hated it.

Just recently my XP laptop got infested with some spyware/malware and it
was the straw that broke the camel's back. (Yes I had antivirus and
antispyware software installed and still got hit) I installed Ubuntu
7.10 on my Inspiron 9300 and haven't looked back. There is no reason in
my opinion that first time users or even light users can't be
indoctrinated with Linux the same way they would have with Windows. I
have applications here at work that will always require a Windows
machine but for all others I'm slowly integrating Linux into their
lives. 

Vista might be a flop but there are still more Vista installs than Linux
in spite of it. Linux isn't going to take advantage of the Microsoft
miscue without us, the advocates. You're cackling in the hen house but
what are you doing to either indoctrinate those you have control over or
sway the opinions of Windows users that might be on the fence? I know
that sounds like I'm calling you out but that's not my intent. I
seriously want to know what you're doing to expose people to Linux.


On Mon, 2007-11-19 at 10:47 -0500, Casey DuBois wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Rudas [mailto:audiotech50 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:05 AM
> To: linux-user at egr.msu.edu; The WFTL LUG; MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
> 
> Here's a headline for you:
> 
> "90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
> 
> 
> Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
> REALLY embarrassing to MS.  "The Vista
> Death Watch"
> 
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


From mikemol at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 15:00:11 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:00:11 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] What are you doing to expose people to Linux?
Message-ID: 

On Nov 20, 2007 2:35 PM, Don Wood  wrote:

[snip]

>You're cackling in the hen house but
> what are you doing to either indoctrinate those you have control over or
> sway the opinions of Windows users that might be on the fence? I know
> that sounds like I'm calling you out but that's not my intent. I
> seriously want to know what you're doing to expose people to Linux.

(Seemed like a good idea for a discussion, so I split it off.)

Now?  Nothing.  Though we primarily develop Windows software at work,
we primarily use Linux for our servers, and 75% of the company uses
Linux at both work and home.

When I was in college, I used Linux in the Computer Club, and got
other club members involved and interested in it.

In high school, well, I was too much of an advocate; People started
ignoring everything I was saying, so I had to tone it down.

In my opinion, advocating Linux by example, and helping those who
express an interest, is sufficient.  If someone wants to use Windows,
and can afford it, I won't stop them.  If they can't afford it, well,
I've converted more than a few Windows users to Linux by price
argument alone.

-- 
:wq

From weeneedhelp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 15:07:50 2007
From: weeneedhelp at gmail.com (Jorge La)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:07:50 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] What are you doing to expose people to Linux?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

I make my GUI really elegant and then people who see my laptop can say "wow,
that looks really good" and I say thanks. It's a great conversation starter.
But they dont really go and install it on their PC though. I get more
success installing linux onto a buddie's PC when they give it for me to fix
a problem of theirs.

But I personally think a lot of people dont really care about the OS they
use as long as it works. I have more success recruiting people to join the
U.S. Army then Linux so far. (4-1)


On Nov 20, 2007 3:00 PM, Michael Mol  wrote:

> On Nov 20, 2007 2:35 PM, Don Wood  wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >You're cackling in the hen house but
> > what are you doing to either indoctrinate those you have control over or
> > sway the opinions of Windows users that might be on the fence? I know
> > that sounds like I'm calling you out but that's not my intent. I
> > seriously want to know what you're doing to expose people to Linux.
>
> (Seemed like a good idea for a discussion, so I split it off.)
>
> Now?  Nothing.  Though we primarily develop Windows software at work,
> we primarily use Linux for our servers, and 75% of the company uses
> Linux at both work and home.
>
> When I was in college, I used Linux in the Computer Club, and got
> other club members involved and interested in it.
>
> In high school, well, I was too much of an advocate; People started
> ignoring everything I was saying, so I had to tone it down.
>
> In my opinion, advocating Linux by example, and helping those who
> express an interest, is sufficient.  If someone wants to use Windows,
> and can afford it, I won't stop them.  If they can't afford it, well,
> I've converted more than a few Windows users to Linux by price
> argument alone.
>
> --
> :wq
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From jtr at jrichards.org  Tue Nov 20 15:18:01 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:18:01 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
Message-ID: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org>

I am helping a friend with his non-profit's computer (he runs an inner-city
ministry that helps with job placement, tutoring for students, leadership
development, etc.).  The machine is an IBM NetVista, Pentium III processor,
and an nVidia card.  I attempted to install XP (he *needs* Quickbooks) for
him.  The install works fine until the machine reboots and attempts to load
the GUI.  When it does so, the monitor goes into sleep mode and requires a
hard reboot (the keyboard becomes unresponsive).  I thought this was odd
behavior so I got another *identical* machine (literally; he received a
donation of several identical machines from a local business) and tried
installing XP onto that blank drive (after formatting, of course).  Again the
monitor went into sleep mode.  I then booted the machine with a Knoppix CD.
The initial splash screen (complete with graphic and a "boot:" prompt) comes
up but when I type in "knoppix" to start Knoppix, the monitor again goes into
sleep mode and requires a hard reboot.  The behavior is identical with XP and
Knoppix on three machines.  I suspect it is an idiosyncracy with IBM hardware.
Any suggestions?
-- 
john-thomas
------
I love you, and because I love you, I would sooner have you hate me for
telling you the truth than adore me for telling you lies.
Pietro Aretino, satirist and dramatist (1492-1556)

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 15:20:23 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:20:23 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] What are you doing to expose people to Linux?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 20, 2007 3:07 PM, Jorge La  wrote:

>
>
> But I personally think a lot of people dont really care about the OS they
> use as long as it works. I have more success recruiting people to join the
> U.S. Army then Linux so far. (4-1)
>
> The point and click crowd would probably
be perfectly happy with Linux for surfing
and e-mail.

The problem could come when they go and
buy do-dads that aren't supported on Linux.
A lot of scanners and printers are, but software
and drivers for things like cameras and other
toys are invariably just for windoz.  Sometimes
the Mac, but rarely Linux.  While there are often
workarounds,  the bulk of PC users,  who can
barely use e-mail or a scanner to start with,  are
then dead in the water.

And unhappy.  The likely reasons that people
will stick with windoz are because of the tens
of $billions of dollars of training that businesses
spent teaching people to use it, and those people
go home,  set up the same thing,  and make
their families use it.  Schools do the same now.
They used to be bastions of Mac users,  but M$
saw through that soon enough.

And the applications.  M$ essentially has proprietary
deals with many hardware vendors,  and the easiest
course of action is almost always to use the M$ way.

If it was just e-mail and surfing,  even casual users
would win with Linux.

    -Bob


>
>
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From rick at vargo.org  Tue Nov 20 15:22:28 2007
From: rick at vargo.org (Rick Vargo)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:22:28 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org>
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <47434204.2010106@vargo.org>

Does that computer happen to have two video cards (possibly an onboard
card and an AGP card)? 

Rick


john-thomas richards wrote:
> I am helping a friend with his non-profit's computer (he runs an inner-city
> ministry that helps with job placement, tutoring for students, leadership
> development, etc.).  The machine is an IBM NetVista, Pentium III processor,
> and an nVidia card.  I attempted to install XP (he *needs* Quickbooks) for
> him.  The install works fine until the machine reboots and attempts to load
> the GUI.  When it does so, the monitor goes into sleep mode and requires a
> hard reboot (the keyboard becomes unresponsive).  I thought this was odd
> behavior so I got another *identical* machine (literally; he received a
> donation of several identical machines from a local business) and tried
> installing XP onto that blank drive (after formatting, of course).  Again the
> monitor went into sleep mode.  I then booted the machine with a Knoppix CD.
> The initial splash screen (complete with graphic and a "boot:" prompt) comes
> up but when I type in "knoppix" to start Knoppix, the monitor again goes into
> sleep mode and requires a hard reboot.  The behavior is identical with XP and
> Knoppix on three machines.  I suspect it is an idiosyncracy with IBM hardware.
> Any suggestions?
>   

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 15:33:22 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:33:22 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] What are you doing to expose people to Linux?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	
	
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711201233q44ad1f4dkd5c52674c857a06@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 20, 2007 3:20 PM, Bob Kline  wrote:
> The problem could come when they go and
> buy do-dads that aren't supported on Linux.

I don't think so...  In fact, I tend to see the opposite.  Folks are
stunned that the webcam they never got to work right comes to life
under Linux.  Their printer didn't require a 150Mb download (because
they lost the driver CD).  I've even had a few folks burn their first
successful CD under Linux - and not for a lack of trying.

Yes, there will always be the odd unsupported doodad, but drivers are
now officially something we Do BetterTM than anyone else.  Ever.  And
we still have lots of room to improve.  That should tell you
something.

--tim

P.S. I'm one of two IT staff at a > 100 employee company rolling out
Linux backend and desktop solutions daily.  Where we can't use Linux,
we roll out Firefox, use OO.o wherever we can get away with it, and
roll our own FOSS web-apps.  I'm also a director of the Open Hardware
Foundation, supporting the efforts of folks designing hardware in the
spirit of FOSS - especially the Open Graphics Project.  In what spare
time I have left, I'm organizing the tech track for the 2008 Penguicon
in Troy, MI.

Working hard toward FOSS world domination.

From jtr at jrichards.org  Tue Nov 20 15:35:37 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:35:37 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: <47434204.2010106@vargo.org>
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org> <47434204.2010106@vargo.org>
Message-ID: <20071120203537.GA16834@jrichards.org>

On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:22:28PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
> john-thomas richards wrote:
> > I am helping a friend with his non-profit's computer (he runs an inner-city
> > ministry that helps with job placement, tutoring for students, leadership
> > development, etc.).  The machine is an IBM NetVista, Pentium III processor,
> > and an nVidia card.  I attempted to install XP (he *needs* Quickbooks) for
> > him.  The install works fine until the machine reboots and attempts to load
> > the GUI.  When it does so, the monitor goes into sleep mode and requires a
> > hard reboot (the keyboard becomes unresponsive).  I thought this was odd
> > behavior so I got another *identical* machine (literally; he received a
> > donation of several identical machines from a local business) and tried
> > installing XP onto that blank drive (after formatting, of course).  Again the
> > monitor went into sleep mode.  I then booted the machine with a Knoppix CD.
> > The initial splash screen (complete with graphic and a "boot:" prompt) comes
> > up but when I type in "knoppix" to start Knoppix, the monitor again goes into
> > sleep mode and requires a hard reboot.  The behavior is identical with XP and
> > Knoppix on three machines.  I suspect it is an idiosyncracy with IBM hardware.
> > Any suggestions?
> > 
> Does that computer happen to have two video cards (possibly an onboard
> card and an AGP card)?

It has onboard video and an AGP nVidia card.  I tried swapping the nVidia
card with an ATI card and got the same response.  I also tried the onboard
video.  It is quite bizarre.
-- 
john-thomas
------
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions,
that I wish it always to be kept alive.
Thomas Jefferson, third US president, architect and author (1743-1826)

From rick at vargo.org  Tue Nov 20 15:39:28 2007
From: rick at vargo.org (Rick Vargo)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:39:28 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: <20071120203537.GA16834@jrichards.org>
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org> <47434204.2010106@vargo.org>
	<20071120203537.GA16834@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <47434600.7070202@vargo.org>

Try going into the BIOS setup and enabling the onboard card.  Then see
if you cannot run through setup with the monitor hooked to it.  This may
be something where setup is seeing the onboard card as the primary even
though it is disabled in the BIOS setup.  Once you get it up and running
and confirm the NVIDIA card is working then you can try disabling it again.

Rick


john-thomas richards wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:22:28PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
>   
>> john-thomas richards wrote:
>>     
>>> I am helping a friend with his non-profit's computer (he runs an inner-city
>>> ministry that helps with job placement, tutoring for students, leadership
>>> development, etc.).  The machine is an IBM NetVista, Pentium III processor,
>>> and an nVidia card.  I attempted to install XP (he *needs* Quickbooks) for
>>> him.  The install works fine until the machine reboots and attempts to load
>>> the GUI.  When it does so, the monitor goes into sleep mode and requires a
>>> hard reboot (the keyboard becomes unresponsive).  I thought this was odd
>>> behavior so I got another *identical* machine (literally; he received a
>>> donation of several identical machines from a local business) and tried
>>> installing XP onto that blank drive (after formatting, of course).  Again the
>>> monitor went into sleep mode.  I then booted the machine with a Knoppix CD.
>>> The initial splash screen (complete with graphic and a "boot:" prompt) comes
>>> up but when I type in "knoppix" to start Knoppix, the monitor again goes into
>>> sleep mode and requires a hard reboot.  The behavior is identical with XP and
>>> Knoppix on three machines.  I suspect it is an idiosyncracy with IBM hardware.
>>> Any suggestions?
>>>
>>>       
>> Does that computer happen to have two video cards (possibly an onboard
>> card and an AGP card)?
>>     
>
> It has onboard video and an AGP nVidia card.  I tried swapping the nVidia
> card with an ATI card and got the same response.  I also tried the onboard
> video.  It is quite bizarre.
>   

From jtr at jrichards.org  Tue Nov 20 15:49:45 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:49:45 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] What are you doing to expose people to Linux?
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0711201233q44ad1f4dkd5c52674c857a06@mail.gmail.com>
References: 
	
	
	<2c97fe9d0711201233q44ad1f4dkd5c52674c857a06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071120204944.GA17128@jrichards.org>

On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:33:22PM -0500, Tim Schmidt wrote:
> On Nov 20, 2007 3:20 PM, Bob Kline  wrote:
[snip]
> P.S. I'm one of two IT staff at a > 100 employee company rolling out
> Linux backend and desktop solutions daily.  Where we can't use Linux,
> we roll out Firefox, use OO.o wherever we can get away with it, and
> roll our own FOSS web-apps.  I'm also a director of the Open Hardware
> Foundation, supporting the efforts of folks designing hardware in the
> spirit of FOSS - especially the Open Graphics Project.  In what spare
> time I have left, I'm organizing the tech track for the 2008 Penguicon
> in Troy, MI.
> 
> Working hard toward FOSS world domination.

Yeah, but other than *that* what are you doing?  :-)

I installed Linux on my parents computer a few years ago.  They use dial-up
for email and *light* web surfing.  Still, they would rather have Windows
because it is what they use at work.  :-(  Then again, they told me recently
about conversations they have with friends who lament various problems with
their computers (i.e., Windows) and they simply could not relate to those
problems.  ("Sometimes you have to reboot to print?  Huh?  How odd...")  They
simply *think* they would rather have Windows.  What they really need is a
newer computer and a faster connection to the internet.
-- 
john-thomas
------
It is not what we do, but also what we do not do, for which we are
accountable.
Moliere, actor and playwright (1622-1673)

From jtr at jrichards.org  Tue Nov 20 15:51:32 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:51:32 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: <47434600.7070202@vargo.org>
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org> <47434204.2010106@vargo.org>
	<20071120203537.GA16834@jrichards.org> <47434600.7070202@vargo.org>
Message-ID: <20071120205131.GA17666@jrichards.org>

On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:39:28PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
> Try going into the BIOS setup and enabling the onboard card.  Then see
> if you cannot run through setup with the monitor hooked to it.  This may
> be something where setup is seeing the onboard card as the primary even
> though it is disabled in the BIOS setup.  Once you get it up and running
> and confirm the NVIDIA card is working then you can try disabling it again.
> 

Excellent idea.  I will try that.  Thanks.

> 
> 
> john-thomas richards wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:22:28PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
> >   
> >> john-thomas richards wrote:
> >>     
> >>> I am helping a friend with his non-profit's computer (he runs an inner-city
> >>> ministry that helps with job placement, tutoring for students, leadership
> >>> development, etc.).  The machine is an IBM NetVista, Pentium III processor,
> >>> and an nVidia card.  I attempted to install XP (he *needs* Quickbooks) for
> >>> him.  The install works fine until the machine reboots and attempts to load
> >>> the GUI.  When it does so, the monitor goes into sleep mode and requires a
> >>> hard reboot (the keyboard becomes unresponsive).  I thought this was odd
> >>> behavior so I got another *identical* machine (literally; he received a
> >>> donation of several identical machines from a local business) and tried
> >>> installing XP onto that blank drive (after formatting, of course).  Again the
> >>> monitor went into sleep mode.  I then booted the machine with a Knoppix CD.
> >>> The initial splash screen (complete with graphic and a "boot:" prompt) comes
> >>> up but when I type in "knoppix" to start Knoppix, the monitor again goes into
> >>> sleep mode and requires a hard reboot.  The behavior is identical with XP and
> >>> Knoppix on three machines.  I suspect it is an idiosyncracy with IBM hardware.
> >>> Any suggestions?
> >>>
> >>>       
> >> Does that computer happen to have two video cards (possibly an onboard
> >> card and an AGP card)?
> >>     
> >
> > It has onboard video and an AGP nVidia card.  I tried swapping the nVidia
> > card with an ATI card and got the same response.  I also tried the onboard
> > video.  It is quite bizarre.
> >   
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

-- 
john-thomas
------
We are not retreating - we are advancing in another direction.
General Douglas MacArthur (1880-1964)

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 15:58:53 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:58:53 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] What are you doing to expose people to Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20071120204944.GA17128@jrichards.org>
References: 
	
	
	<2c97fe9d0711201233q44ad1f4dkd5c52674c857a06@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071120204944.GA17128@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711201258t77ea0934nc46a472ba06a7b36@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 20, 2007 3:49 PM, john-thomas richards  wrote:
> Yeah, but other than *that* what are you doing?  :-)

Best.  Reply.  Ever.

> I installed Linux on my parents computer a few years ago.  They use dial-up
> for email and *light* web surfing.  Still, they would rather have Windows
> because it is what they use at work.  :-(  Then again, they told me recently
> about conversations they have with friends who lament various problems with
> their computers (i.e., Windows) and they simply could not relate to those
> problems.  ("Sometimes you have to reboot to print?  Huh?  How odd...")  They
> simply *think* they would rather have Windows.  What they really need is a
> newer computer and a faster connection to the internet.

I've had great success giving those sort of people Linux in a
dual-boot configuration...  Inevitably, Windows breaks, they can't get
ahold of me (see aforementioned responsibilities), they decide to give
this crazy Linux thing a try afterall, and I get a call 2 months later
asking me how to rotate a picture in gThumb.  The trick is to let
_them_ decide they want to use Linux.  Works every time.

--tim

From jtr at jrichards.org  Tue Nov 20 19:55:37 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:55:37 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: <20071120205131.GA17666@jrichards.org>
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org> <47434204.2010106@vargo.org>
	<20071120203537.GA16834@jrichards.org> <47434600.7070202@vargo.org>
	<20071120205131.GA17666@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <20071121005537.GA21129@jrichards.org>

On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:51:32PM -0500, john-thomas richards wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:39:28PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
> > Try going into the BIOS setup and enabling the onboard card.  Then see
> > if you cannot run through setup with the monitor hooked to it.  This may
> > be something where setup is seeing the onboard card as the primary even
> > though it is disabled in the BIOS setup.  Once you get it up and running
> > and confirm the NVIDIA card is working then you can try disabling it again.
> > 
> 
> Excellent idea.  I will try that.  Thanks.

The monitor is still going into sleep mode and the system becomes
unresponsive.  I went into the BIOS and turned off the power management
features.  No dice.  I have a hard time believing all three machines
are faulty.  :-(
-- 
john-thomas
------
When a train goes through a tunnel and it gets dark, you don't throw
away the ticket and jump off. You sit still and trust the engineer.
Corrie Ten Boom, author and Holocaust survivor

From mikemol at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 21:04:07 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:04:07 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: <20071121005537.GA21129@jrichards.org>
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org> <47434204.2010106@vargo.org>
	<20071120203537.GA16834@jrichards.org> <47434600.7070202@vargo.org>
	<20071120205131.GA17666@jrichards.org>
	<20071121005537.GA21129@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 20, 2007 7:55 PM, john-thomas richards  wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:51:32PM -0500, john-thomas richards wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:39:28PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
> > > Try going into the BIOS setup and enabling the onboard card.  Then see
> > > if you cannot run through setup with the monitor hooked to it.  This may
> > > be something where setup is seeing the onboard card as the primary even
> > > though it is disabled in the BIOS setup.  Once you get it up and running
> > > and confirm the NVIDIA card is working then you can try disabling it again.
> > >
> >
> > Excellent idea.  I will try that.  Thanks.
>
> The monitor is still going into sleep mode and the system becomes
> unresponsive.  I went into the BIOS and turned off the power management
> features.  No dice.  I have a hard time believing all three machines
> are faulty.  :-(

Have you tried physically removing the NVidia card from the system?
What about booting in console (text) mode?



-- 
:wq

From sjhuffman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 21:06:29 2007
From: sjhuffman at gmail.com (Scott Huffman)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:06:29 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: <20071121005537.GA21129@jrichards.org>
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org> <47434204.2010106@vargo.org>
	<20071120203537.GA16834@jrichards.org> <47434600.7070202@vargo.org>
	<20071120205131.GA17666@jrichards.org>
	<20071121005537.GA21129@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <9bfdb7e70711201806y7ba2d55fx4926f23fd3b125f8@mail.gmail.com>

Do you really need the AGP card?  Try physically removing it.

~Scott

On Nov 20, 2007 7:55 PM, john-thomas richards  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:51:32PM -0500, john-thomas richards wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:39:28PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
> > > Try going into the BIOS setup and enabling the onboard card.  Then see
> > > if you cannot run through setup with the monitor hooked to it.  This may
> > > be something where setup is seeing the onboard card as the primary even
> > > though it is disabled in the BIOS setup.  Once you get it up and running
> > > and confirm the NVIDIA card is working then you can try disabling it again.
> > >
> >
> > Excellent idea.  I will try that.  Thanks.
>
> The monitor is still going into sleep mode and the system becomes
> unresponsive.  I went into the BIOS and turned off the power management
> features.  No dice.  I have a hard time believing all three machines
> are faulty.  :-(
> --
> john-thomas
> ------
> When a train goes through a tunnel and it gets dark, you don't throw
> away the ticket and jump off. You sit still and trust the engineer.
> Corrie Ten Boom, author and Holocaust survivor
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

From sjhuffman at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 21:07:21 2007
From: sjhuffman at gmail.com (Scott Huffman)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:07:21 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org> <47434204.2010106@vargo.org>
	<20071120203537.GA16834@jrichards.org> <47434600.7070202@vargo.org>
	<20071120205131.GA17666@jrichards.org>
	<20071121005537.GA21129@jrichards.org>
	
Message-ID: <9bfdb7e70711201807q8ac9e26n870c4ff5a5ea26df@mail.gmail.com>

That's funny, good idea Michael!

On Nov 20, 2007 9:04 PM, Michael Mol  wrote:
> On Nov 20, 2007 7:55 PM, john-thomas richards  wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:51:32PM -0500, john-thomas richards wrote:
> > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:39:28PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
> > > > Try going into the BIOS setup and enabling the onboard card.  Then see
> > > > if you cannot run through setup with the monitor hooked to it.  This may
> > > > be something where setup is seeing the onboard card as the primary even
> > > > though it is disabled in the BIOS setup.  Once you get it up and running
> > > > and confirm the NVIDIA card is working then you can try disabling it again.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Excellent idea.  I will try that.  Thanks.
> >
> > The monitor is still going into sleep mode and the system becomes
> > unresponsive.  I went into the BIOS and turned off the power management
> > features.  No dice.  I have a hard time believing all three machines
> > are faulty.  :-(
>
> Have you tried physically removing the NVidia card from the system?
> What about booting in console (text) mode?
>
>
>
> --
> :wq
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 23:14:36 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:14:36 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Firefox 3
Message-ID: 

http://www.nytimes.com/idg/IDG_002570DE00740E18002573990073C1C2.html?ref=technology

**
Mozilla also claimed that it has fixed more than 300 individual memory leaks
and added a new cycle collector to eliminate other memory issues. Firefox
has a reputation for leaking memory consuming large quantities the longer
it's left running, and ultimate slowing down its host computer although some
of its developers have contested the claims, and even pegged the problem as
one of perception.
**

300 memory leaks?  If they say so.

Anyway,  Firefox and memory leaks
came up in this group recently.  Apparently
it will get fixed.

I see the leaks, which depend on the
number of windows open and the web
sites being displayed.  I've see it wedge
the display.

    -Bob
-------------- next part --------------
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From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Nov 21 00:23:27 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:23:27 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org>
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <4743C0CF.40302@ameritech.net>

john-thomas richards wrote:
> When it does so, the monitor goes into sleep mode and requires a
> hard reboot (the keyboard becomes unresponsive).  I thought this was odd
> behavior so I got another *identical* machine (literally; he received a
> donation of several identical machines from a local business) and tried
> installing XP onto that blank drive (after formatting, of course).  Again the
> monitor went into sleep mode.  I then booted the machine with a Knoppix CD.
> The initial splash screen (complete with graphic and a "boot:" prompt) comes
> up but when I type in "knoppix" to start Knoppix, the monitor again goes into
> sleep mode and requires a hard reboot.  The behavior is identical with XP and
> Knoppix on three machines.  I suspect it is an idiosyncracy with IBM hardware.
> Any suggestions?

In addition to the other suggestions, you might try booting knoppix with
"acpi=off" and "noamp".

suggesting
Raymond McLaughlin

From mikemol at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 00:47:43 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:47:43 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: <4743C0CF.40302@ameritech.net>
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org>
	<4743C0CF.40302@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 21, 2007 12:23 AM, Raymond McLaughlin  wrote:
> john-thomas richards wrote:
> > When it does so, the monitor goes into sleep mode and requires a
> > hard reboot (the keyboard becomes unresponsive).  I thought this was odd
> > behavior so I got another *identical* machine (literally; he received a
> > donation of several identical machines from a local business) and tried
> > installing XP onto that blank drive (after formatting, of course).  Again the
> > monitor went into sleep mode.  I then booted the machine with a Knoppix CD.
> > The initial splash screen (complete with graphic and a "boot:" prompt) comes
> > up but when I type in "knoppix" to start Knoppix, the monitor again goes into
> > sleep mode and requires a hard reboot.  The behavior is identical with XP and
> > Knoppix on three machines.  I suspect it is an idiosyncracy with IBM hardware.
> > Any suggestions?
>
> In addition to the other suggestions, you might try booting knoppix with
> "acpi=off" and "noamp".

I think you meant noapm.  Good suggestion, though.  I've had a couple
systems I had to disable or limit ACPI on.

There are more fine-grained options available, too.  URL is to Ubuntu,
but the kernel is common to all distros. :-)

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootOptions#head-e95c9e129e9eb9fca524fe278cd57fcdb39db62d

(Don't know why it's HTTPS, though...)

-- 
:wq

From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Nov 21 01:10:32 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:10:32 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org>	<4743C0CF.40302@ameritech.net>
	
Message-ID: <4743CBD8.6040500@ameritech.net>

Michael Mol wrote:

>> In addition to the other suggestions, you might try booting knoppix with
>> "acpi=off" and "noamp".
> 
> I think you meant noapm. 

No, I was just afraid it might be too loud. ;-0


> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootOptions#head-e95c9e129e9eb9fca524fe278cd57fcdb39db62d

ftp://ftp.uni-kl.de/pub/linux/knoppix/knoppix-cheatcodes.txt



From sjhuffman at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 08:39:13 2007
From: sjhuffman at gmail.com (Scott Huffman)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:39:13 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Firefox 3
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <9bfdb7e70711210539r7b9a7d64iea10a55b112f1d22@mail.gmail.com>

Firefox's doesn't just have the memory problem.  It also consumes
abnormally large amounts of CPU usage.  It's good that they are fixing
the memory leaks though.

~Scott

On Nov 20, 2007 11:14 PM, Bob Kline  wrote:
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/idg/IDG_002570DE00740E18002573990073C1C2.html?ref=technology
>
> **
> Mozilla also claimed that it has fixed more than 300 individual memory leaks
> and added a new cycle collector to eliminate other memory issues. Firefox
> has a reputation for leaking memory consuming large quantities the longer
> it's left running, and ultimate slowing down its host computer although some
> of its developers have contested the claims, and even pegged the problem as
> one of perception.
> **
>
> 300 memory leaks?  If they say so.
>
> Anyway,  Firefox and memory leaks
> came up in this group recently.  Apparently
> it will get fixed.
>
> I see the leaks, which depend on the
> number of windows open and the web
> sites being displayed.  I've see it wedge
> the display.
>
>     -Bob
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 21 08:42:55 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:42:55 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org> <47434204.2010106@vargo.org>
	<20071120203537.GA16834@jrichards.org> <47434600.7070202@vargo.org>
	<20071120205131.GA17666@jrichards.org>
	<20071121005537.GA21129@jrichards.org>
	
Message-ID: <20071121134255.GA19774@jrichards.org>

On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 09:04:07PM -0500, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Nov 20, 2007 7:55 PM, john-thomas richards  wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:51:32PM -0500, john-thomas richards wrote:
> > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:39:28PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
> > > > Try going into the BIOS setup and enabling the onboard card.  Then see
> > > > if you cannot run through setup with the monitor hooked to it.  This may
> > > > be something where setup is seeing the onboard card as the primary even
> > > > though it is disabled in the BIOS setup.  Once you get it up and running
> > > > and confirm the NVIDIA card is working then you can try disabling it again.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Excellent idea.  I will try that.  Thanks.
> >
> > The monitor is still going into sleep mode and the system becomes
> > unresponsive.  I went into the BIOS and turned off the power management
> > features.  No dice.  I have a hard time believing all three machines
> > are faulty.  :-(
> 
> Have you tried physically removing the NVidia card from the system?
> What about booting in console (text) mode?

I removed the nVidia card.  After sending my previous message, I tried
booting knoppix to the console and the monitor went to sleep again.  I
booted knoppix into a memtest, though.  That is running right now.
-- 
john-thomas
------
The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It
will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment.
Robert Maynard Hutchins, educator (1899-1977)

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 21 08:44:07 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:44:07 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: <9bfdb7e70711201806y7ba2d55fx4926f23fd3b125f8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org> <47434204.2010106@vargo.org>
	<20071120203537.GA16834@jrichards.org> <47434600.7070202@vargo.org>
	<20071120205131.GA17666@jrichards.org>
	<20071121005537.GA21129@jrichards.org>
	<9bfdb7e70711201806y7ba2d55fx4926f23fd3b125f8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071121134407.GB19774@jrichards.org>

On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 09:06:29PM -0500, Scott Huffman wrote:
> Do you really need the AGP card?  Try physically removing it.

I did. 
> 
> On Nov 20, 2007 7:55 PM, john-thomas richards  wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:51:32PM -0500, john-thomas richards wrote:
> > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 03:39:28PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
> > > > Try going into the BIOS setup and enabling the onboard card.  Then see
> > > > if you cannot run through setup with the monitor hooked to it.  This may
> > > > be something where setup is seeing the onboard card as the primary even
> > > > though it is disabled in the BIOS setup.  Once you get it up and running
> > > > and confirm the NVIDIA card is working then you can try disabling it again.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Excellent idea.  I will try that.  Thanks.
> >
> > The monitor is still going into sleep mode and the system becomes
> > unresponsive.  I went into the BIOS and turned off the power management
> > features.  No dice.  I have a hard time believing all three machines
> > are faulty.  :-(
> > --
> > john-thomas
> > ------
> > When a train goes through a tunnel and it gets dark, you don't throw
> > away the ticket and jump off. You sit still and trust the engineer.
> > Corrie Ten Boom, author and Holocaust survivor
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

-- 
john-thomas
------
A failure is a man who has blundered but is not able to cash in on the
experience.
Elbert Hubbard (1856-1915)

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 08:45:11 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:45:11 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Firefox 3
In-Reply-To: <9bfdb7e70711210539r7b9a7d64iea10a55b112f1d22@mail.gmail.com>
References: 
	<9bfdb7e70711210539r7b9a7d64iea10a55b112f1d22@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711210545t6dd97160p2be568686d039c42@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2007 8:39 AM, Scott Huffman  wrote:
> Firefox's doesn't just have the memory problem.  It also consumes
> abnormally large amounts of CPU usage.  It's good that they are fixing
> the memory leaks though.

In my experience, Firefox tends to consume lots of ram, but doesn't
seem too leaky (I've managed to keep a single instance running for > 3
months at least - with hundreds of tabs open).  The second you install
flash or java plugins, however, it turns into a leaky steaming pile of
CPU cycle stealing crap.  :-/

Just my 2 cents.

--tim

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 21 08:47:34 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:47:34 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: <4743C0CF.40302@ameritech.net>
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org>
	<4743C0CF.40302@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20071121134733.GA20125@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 12:23:27AM -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> john-thomas richards wrote:
> > When it does so, the monitor goes into sleep mode and requires a
> > hard reboot (the keyboard becomes unresponsive).  I thought this was odd
> > behavior so I got another *identical* machine (literally; he received a
> > donation of several identical machines from a local business) and tried
> > installing XP onto that blank drive (after formatting, of course).  Again the
> > monitor went into sleep mode.  I then booted the machine with a Knoppix CD.
> > The initial splash screen (complete with graphic and a "boot:" prompt) comes
> > up but when I type in "knoppix" to start Knoppix, the monitor again goes into
> > sleep mode and requires a hard reboot.  The behavior is identical with XP and
> > Knoppix on three machines.  I suspect it is an idiosyncracy with IBM hardware.
> > Any suggestions?
> 
> In addition to the other suggestions, you might try booting knoppix with
> "acpi=off" and "noamp".
> 
> suggesting

I tried 'acpi=off' as well as disabling power managment in the BIOS.
:-(
-- 
john-thomas
------
When a train goes through a tunnel and it gets dark, you don't throw
away the ticket and jump off. You sit still and trust the engineer.
Corrie Ten Boom, author and Holocaust survivor

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 21 08:48:22 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:48:22 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: <4743CBD8.6040500@ameritech.net>
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org>
	<4743C0CF.40302@ameritech.net>
	
	<4743CBD8.6040500@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20071121134822.GB20125@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 01:10:32AM -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Michael Mol wrote:
> 
> >> In addition to the other suggestions, you might try booting knoppix with
> >> "acpi=off" and "noamp".
> > 
> > I think you meant noapm. 
> 
> No, I was just afraid it might be too loud. ;-0

That should not be a problem; the speakers were not plugged in...
-- 
john-thomas
------
I love you, and because I love you, I would sooner have you hate me for
telling you the truth than adore me for telling you lies.
Pietro Aretino, satirist and dramatist (1492-1556)

From clamrock at nmtdie.com  Wed Nov 21 08:55:46 2007
From: clamrock at nmtdie.com (Chris Lamrock)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:55:46 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
References: <20071120201801.GA15877@jrichards.org><4743C0CF.40302@ameritech.net><4743CBD8.6040500@ameritech.net>
	<20071121134822.GB20125@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <00ac01c82c46$37699ba0$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>

I'll throw one out there.. Have you tried a different monitor?

-Chris


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john-thomas richards" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment


> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 01:10:32AM -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
>> Michael Mol wrote:
>>
>> >> In addition to the other suggestions, you might try booting knoppix 
>> >> with
>> >> "acpi=off" and "noamp".
>> >
>> > I think you meant noapm.
>>
>> No, I was just afraid it might be too loud. ;-0
>
> That should not be a problem; the speakers were not plugged in...
> -- 
> john-thomas
> ------
> I love you, and because I love you, I would sooner have you hate me for
> telling you the truth than adore me for telling you lies.
> Pietro Aretino, satirist and dramatist (1492-1556)
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> !DSPAM:4744374380091595664929!
> 



From erickson.adam.m at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 08:59:45 2007
From: erickson.adam.m at gmail.com (Adam M. Erickson)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:59:45 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
Message-ID: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>

Well actually my second, my first time it was in RTF on accident,
really sorry for the mess that posted.

THis is going to sound like a low tech solution but somethimes that is
the best fix. You mentioned that the monitor dims on serveral of the
same type of machine running Knoppix and/or XP. With/without NVIDIA
and changes to all bios settiengs you can think of.

The only other solution I can think of is that your monitor is either
shot or has a messed up energy setting. Have you tried replacing the
monitor and did it dim when you started the memtest?

Adam M. Erickson
-- 
"Catch a man a fish,
and you can sell it to him.
Teach a man to fish,
and you ruin a wonderful business opportunity."   Karl Marx

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 21 09:17:30 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:17:30 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IBM NetVista not booting graphical environment
In-Reply-To: <00ac01c82c46$37699ba0$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>
References: <20071121134822.GB20125@jrichards.org>
	<00ac01c82c46$37699ba0$640aa8c0@chrislamrock>
Message-ID: <20071121141730.GA21155@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 08:55:46AM -0500, Chris Lamrock wrote:
> I'll throw one out there.. Have you tried a different monitor?

I tried my LCD once and got the same behavior.  I have not tried the
LCD with the various permutations, however. 

[snip]
-- 
john-thomas
------
Absurdity, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's
own opinion.
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 21 09:20:22 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:20:22 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Firefox 3
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0711210545t6dd97160p2be568686d039c42@mail.gmail.com>
References: 
	<9bfdb7e70711210539r7b9a7d64iea10a55b112f1d22@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0711210545t6dd97160p2be568686d039c42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071121142022.GB21155@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 08:45:11AM -0500, Tim Schmidt wrote:
> On Nov 21, 2007 8:39 AM, Scott Huffman  wrote:
> > Firefox's doesn't just have the memory problem.  It also consumes
> > abnormally large amounts of CPU usage.  It's good that they are fixing
> > the memory leaks though.
> 
> In my experience, Firefox tends to consume lots of ram, but doesn't
> seem too leaky (I've managed to keep a single instance running for > 3
> months at least - with hundreds of tabs open).  The second you install
> flash or java plugins, however, it turns into a leaky steaming pile of
> CPU cycle stealing crap.  :-/
> 
> Just my 2 cents.

Uh...*hundreds* of tabs?  At the same time?  You know, the newest
version of Firefox has this really cool, innovative feature that will
help manage all this content you view.  It's called a "bookmark".  :-)

How in the world do you manage hundreds of open tabs?  It has to take
several minutes just to find the right tab!?
-- 
john-thomas
------
In cases of defense 'tis best to weigh the enemy more mighty than he seems.
Shakespeare

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 21 09:24:13 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:24:13 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 08:59:45AM -0500, Adam M. Erickson wrote:
> Well actually my second, my first time it was in RTF on accident,
> really sorry for the mess that posted.
> 
> THis is going to sound like a low tech solution but somethimes that is
> the best fix. You mentioned that the monitor dims on serveral of the
> same type of machine running Knoppix and/or XP. With/without NVIDIA
> and changes to all bios settiengs you can think of.
> 
> The only other solution I can think of is that your monitor is either
> shot or has a messed up energy setting. Have you tried replacing the
> monitor and did it dim when you started the memtest?

I am wondering if the monitor is the cause.  That seems to be the most
logical at this point, though I did have the same result with an LCD on
one of the attempts to install [XP|Knoppix] (I do not remember which).
I am not sure if I have another CRT around!  When I bought my house a
year and a half ago I got rid of a *bunch* of stuff, including old 15"
CRT's.  I may have one in the garage.  May.  :-|
-- 
john-thomas
------
Metaphysics means only an unusually obstinate attempt to think clearly
and consistently.
William James

From cdubois at n-vint.com  Wed Nov 21 09:27:19 2007
From: cdubois at n-vint.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:27:19 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF92BB@NVMBX01.nvint.local>

I've got a pile of FREE 15-17" CRT's in Jenison if anyone wants some.
Casey

-----Original Message-----
From: john-thomas richards [mailto:jtr at jrichards.org]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 9:24 AM
To: grlug at grlug.org
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 08:59:45AM -0500, Adam M. Erickson wrote:
> Well actually my second, my first time it was in RTF on accident,
> really sorry for the mess that posted.
>
> THis is going to sound like a low tech solution but somethimes that is
> the best fix. You mentioned that the monitor dims on serveral of the
> same type of machine running Knoppix and/or XP. With/without NVIDIA
> and changes to all bios settiengs you can think of.
>
> The only other solution I can think of is that your monitor is either
> shot or has a messed up energy setting. Have you tried replacing the
> monitor and did it dim when you started the memtest?

I am wondering if the monitor is the cause.  That seems to be the most
logical at this point, though I did have the same result with an LCD on
one of the attempts to install [XP|Knoppix] (I do not remember which).
I am not sure if I have another CRT around!  When I bought my house a
year and a half ago I got rid of a *bunch* of stuff, including old 15"
CRT's.  I may have one in the garage.  May.  :-|
--
john-thomas
------
Metaphysics means only an unusually obstinate attempt to think clearly
and consistently.
William James
_______________________________________________
grlug mailing list
grlug at grlug.org
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 21 09:34:52 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:34:52 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF92BB@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
	<9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF92BB@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <20071121143452.GA22371@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 09:27:19AM -0500, Casey DuBois wrote:
> I've got a pile of FREE 15-17" CRT's in Jenison if anyone wants some.

Dibs on one!

:-)

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: john-thomas richards [mailto:jtr at jrichards.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 9:24 AM
> To: grlug at grlug.org
> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
> 
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 08:59:45AM -0500, Adam M. Erickson wrote:
> > Well actually my second, my first time it was in RTF on accident,
> > really sorry for the mess that posted.
> >
> > THis is going to sound like a low tech solution but somethimes that is
> > the best fix. You mentioned that the monitor dims on serveral of the
> > same type of machine running Knoppix and/or XP. With/without NVIDIA
> > and changes to all bios settiengs you can think of.
> >
> > The only other solution I can think of is that your monitor is either
> > shot or has a messed up energy setting. Have you tried replacing the
> > monitor and did it dim when you started the memtest?
> 
> I am wondering if the monitor is the cause.  That seems to be the most
> logical at this point, though I did have the same result with an LCD on
> one of the attempts to install [XP|Knoppix] (I do not remember which).
> I am not sure if I have another CRT around!  When I bought my house a
> year and a half ago I got rid of a *bunch* of stuff, including old 15"
> CRT's.  I may have one in the garage.  May.  :-|
> --
> john-thomas
> ------
> Metaphysics means only an unusually obstinate attempt to think clearly
> and consistently.
> William James
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

-- 
john-thomas
------
Tact is the ability to describe others as they see themselves.
Abraham Lincoln, 16th president of the U.S (1809-1865)

From rick at vargo.org  Wed Nov 21 09:41:51 2007
From: rick at vargo.org (Rick Vargo)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:41:51 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <474443AF.7010304@vargo.org>

Wouldn't hurt.  Always rule out the most simple things first.  :)

Rick


john-thomas richards wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 08:59:45AM -0500, Adam M. Erickson wrote:
>   
>> Well actually my second, my first time it was in RTF on accident,
>> really sorry for the mess that posted.
>>
>> THis is going to sound like a low tech solution but somethimes that is
>> the best fix. You mentioned that the monitor dims on serveral of the
>> same type of machine running Knoppix and/or XP. With/without NVIDIA
>> and changes to all bios settiengs you can think of.
>>
>> The only other solution I can think of is that your monitor is either
>> shot or has a messed up energy setting. Have you tried replacing the
>> monitor and did it dim when you started the memtest?
>>     
>
> I am wondering if the monitor is the cause.  That seems to be the most
> logical at this point, though I did have the same result with an LCD on
> one of the attempts to install [XP|Knoppix] (I do not remember which).
> I am not sure if I have another CRT around!  When I bought my house a
> year and a half ago I got rid of a *bunch* of stuff, including old 15"
> CRT's.  I may have one in the garage.  May.  :-|
>   

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 10:06:20 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:20 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Firefox 3
In-Reply-To: <20071121142022.GB21155@jrichards.org>
References: 
	<9bfdb7e70711210539r7b9a7d64iea10a55b112f1d22@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0711210545t6dd97160p2be568686d039c42@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071121142022.GB21155@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711210706t4897ec11y6c925a11f89f9d34@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2007 9:20 AM, john-thomas richards  wrote:
> Uh...*hundreds* of tabs?  At the same time?  You know, the newest
> version of Firefox has this really cool, innovative feature that will
> help manage all this content you view.  It's called a "bookmark".  :-)
>
> How in the world do you manage hundreds of open tabs?  It has to take
> several minutes just to find the right tab!?

Several open windows on individual virtual desktops.  I like to keep
virtual desktops organized per-task, and most tasks these days require
a few tabs open in firefox at a minimum :)

--tim

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 10:19:20 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:19:20 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Firefox 3
In-Reply-To: <2c97fe9d0711210545t6dd97160p2be568686d039c42@mail.gmail.com>
References: 
	<9bfdb7e70711210539r7b9a7d64iea10a55b112f1d22@mail.gmail.com>
	<2c97fe9d0711210545t6dd97160p2be568686d039c42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 21, 2007 8:45 AM, Tim Schmidt  wrote:

> On Nov 21, 2007 8:39 AM, Scott Huffman  wrote:
> > Firefox's doesn't just have the memory problem.  It also consumes
> > abnormally large amounts of CPU usage.  It's good that they are fixing
> > the memory leaks though.
>
> In my experience, Firefox tends to consume lots of ram, but doesn't
> seem too leaky (I've managed to keep a single instance running for > 3
> months at least - with hundreds of tabs open).  The second you install
> flash or java plugins, however, it turns into a leaky steaming pile of
> CPU cycle stealing crap.  :-/
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> --tim
>
>
Seems basically right.  I see problems
when I have more than 3 to 4 windows
open,  and  when  I have other than
certain web sites on them.  It's hard to
sort out just exactly which is the real
culprit.  But as you suggest,  I'd be
willing to believe it's more the things
people install after Firefox is installed
than Firefox itself.

It's hard to understand how the Firefox
people would have "300 leaks" to fix,
but the project is probably a big team
now.  Whether that solves the problem
for all the plugins and things brought
on board with different web sites is of
course the test.

It seems to me that things got worse
between version 1 and version 2.  If
true, perhaps it's a result of success,
and too many players.  We'll see.

     -Bob
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From dond at standalelumber.com  Wed Nov 21 15:11:46 2007
From: dond at standalelumber.com (Don Wood)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:11:46 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF92BB@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>	
	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>	
	<9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF92BB@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <1195675906.26739.3.camel@donw-laptop>

I'll take one if you please. 


On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 09:27 -0500, Casey DuBois wrote:
> I've got a pile of FREE 15-17" CRT's in Jenison if anyone wants some.
> Casey
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: john-thomas richards [mailto:jtr at jrichards.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 9:24 AM
> To: grlug at grlug.org
> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
> 
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 08:59:45AM -0500, Adam M. Erickson wrote:
> > Well actually my second, my first time it was in RTF on accident,
> > really sorry for the mess that posted.
> >
> > THis is going to sound like a low tech solution but somethimes that is
> > the best fix. You mentioned that the monitor dims on serveral of the
> > same type of machine running Knoppix and/or XP. With/without NVIDIA
> > and changes to all bios settiengs you can think of.
> >
> > The only other solution I can think of is that your monitor is either
> > shot or has a messed up energy setting. Have you tried replacing the
> > monitor and did it dim when you started the memtest?
> 
> I am wondering if the monitor is the cause.  That seems to be the most
> logical at this point, though I did have the same result with an LCD on
> one of the attempts to install [XP|Knoppix] (I do not remember which).
> I am not sure if I have another CRT around!  When I bought my house a
> year and a half ago I got rid of a *bunch* of stuff, including old 15"
> CRT's.  I may have one in the garage.  May.  :-|
> --
> john-thomas
> ------
> Metaphysics means only an unusually obstinate attempt to think clearly
> and consistently.
> William James
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


From tehpopa at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 15:19:33 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:19:33 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Happy Thanksgiving!
Message-ID: 

I'm a bit early, I know. But I'm just here to give thanks to everyone here
for helping me when I need it! Thanks!
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From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 21 15:33:45 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:33:45 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 09:24:13AM -0500, john-thomas richards wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 08:59:45AM -0500, Adam M. Erickson wrote:
> > Well actually my second, my first time it was in RTF on accident,
> > really sorry for the mess that posted.
> > 
> > THis is going to sound like a low tech solution but somethimes that is
> > the best fix. You mentioned that the monitor dims on serveral of the
> > same type of machine running Knoppix and/or XP. With/without NVIDIA
> > and changes to all bios settiengs you can think of.
> > 
> > The only other solution I can think of is that your monitor is either
> > shot or has a messed up energy setting. Have you tried replacing the
> > monitor and did it dim when you started the memtest?
> 
> I am wondering if the monitor is the cause.  That seems to be the most
> logical at this point, though I did have the same result with an LCD on
> one of the attempts to install [XP|Knoppix] (I do not remember which).
> I am not sure if I have another CRT around!  When I bought my house a
> year and a half ago I got rid of a *bunch* of stuff, including old 15"
> CRT's.  I may have one in the garage.  May.  :-|

I forgot about the CRT on the lone Windows machine (for games) I have.
:-)  The bad news is that swapping monitors gives the same results,
though this time the monitor has a message about shutting down in five
seconds (definitely a monitor message, not from the OS).  I am stumped.
-- 
john-thomas
------
I took a speed reading course and read 'War and Peace' in twenty
minutes. It involves Russia.
Woody Allen, author, actor (1935- )

From rick at vargo.org  Wed Nov 21 15:38:43 2007
From: rick at vargo.org (Rick Vargo)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:38:43 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
	<20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <47449753.3030605@vargo.org>

Are there any sort of adjustments to your onboard video card besides
turning it off?

Rick


john-thomas richards wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 09:24:13AM -0500, john-thomas richards wrote:
>   
>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 08:59:45AM -0500, Adam M. Erickson wrote:
>>     
>>> Well actually my second, my first time it was in RTF on accident,
>>> really sorry for the mess that posted.
>>>
>>> THis is going to sound like a low tech solution but somethimes that is
>>> the best fix. You mentioned that the monitor dims on serveral of the
>>> same type of machine running Knoppix and/or XP. With/without NVIDIA
>>> and changes to all bios settiengs you can think of.
>>>
>>> The only other solution I can think of is that your monitor is either
>>> shot or has a messed up energy setting. Have you tried replacing the
>>> monitor and did it dim when you started the memtest?
>>>       
>> I am wondering if the monitor is the cause.  That seems to be the most
>> logical at this point, though I did have the same result with an LCD on
>> one of the attempts to install [XP|Knoppix] (I do not remember which).
>> I am not sure if I have another CRT around!  When I bought my house a
>> year and a half ago I got rid of a *bunch* of stuff, including old 15"
>> CRT's.  I may have one in the garage.  May.  :-|
>>     
>
> I forgot about the CRT on the lone Windows machine (for games) I have.
> :-)  The bad news is that swapping monitors gives the same results,
> though this time the monitor has a message about shutting down in five
> seconds (definitely a monitor message, not from the OS).  I am stumped.
>   

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 21 16:04:06 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:04:06 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <47449753.3030605@vargo.org>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
	<20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org> <47449753.3030605@vargo.org>
Message-ID: <20071121210406.GA2402@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 03:38:43PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
> Are there any sort of adjustments to your onboard video card besides
> turning it off?

There are three settings to the video selection: onboard, PCI, and AGP.
When I put the AGP card in and enter the BIOS settings, only PCI and
AGP appear as options.  Under "Video Setup" are the options "Active
Video" (nVidia when the AGP card is in - not changeable), Shared System
Memory (when using onboard video the choices are 512KB and 1 MB), Video
Aperture (16, 32, and 64MB), Active Video (PCI or AGP as mentioned
above), Palette Snooping, and Video Interrupt (Enabled or Disabled).
-- 
john-thomas
------
Don't judge men's wealth or godliness by their Sunday appearance.
Benjamin Franklin, statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)

From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Nov 21 15:59:33 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:59:33 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
	<20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <47449C35.5010909@ameritech.net>

john-thomas richards wrote:
 > I forgot about the CRT on the lone Windows machine (for games) I have.
> :-)  The bad news is that swapping monitors gives the same results,
> though this time the monitor has a message about shutting down in five
> seconds (definitely a monitor message, not from the OS).  I am stumped.


It sounds like you can get into BIOS. Is there a setting for display
type (VGA/CGA etc)?

If you really want to you can try to ssh in and see what's what:

-While on a network let knoppix boot. If you have speakers you should
  hear "Initiating startup sequence" when it's about ready
-Do  and press . Even if you can't see it, you
  are at a root console.
-Type "/etc/init.d/ssh start " (It ought be ".../sshd start"
  but on Knoppix it isn't.)
-Then type "passwd" " and type in a trivial password
  such as "12345", twice.
-Find the IP address of the target box, and exercise I'll leave to you.
-From another box on the network "ssh root at knoppix"
    Welcome to Knoppix!
    root at Knoppix:~#
All this assumes that the machine is working except for the video.
Working blind like this is weird, and if you fumble you might need to
reboot. If you get it working, and can't fix the video, you might still
have a pretty good headless server or router. :)

At least it's an interesting problem!
Raymond McLaughlin

From rick at vargo.org  Wed Nov 21 16:27:54 2007
From: rick at vargo.org (Rick Vargo)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:27:54 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <20071121210406.GA2402@jrichards.org>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>	<20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org>
	<47449753.3030605@vargo.org> <20071121210406.GA2402@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <4744A2DA.9090302@vargo.org>

Try playing with the settings.  I have heard that palette snooping can
cause issues...  As a matter of fact, I would reset all of the BIOS
settings to the default and give it a whirl.

Rick


john-thomas richards wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 03:38:43PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
>   
>> Are there any sort of adjustments to your onboard video card besides
>> turning it off?
>>     
>
> There are three settings to the video selection: onboard, PCI, and AGP.
> When I put the AGP card in and enter the BIOS settings, only PCI and
> AGP appear as options.  Under "Video Setup" are the options "Active
> Video" (nVidia when the AGP card is in - not changeable), Shared System
> Memory (when using onboard video the choices are 512KB and 1 MB), Video
> Aperture (16, 32, and 64MB), Active Video (PCI or AGP as mentioned
> above), Palette Snooping, and Video Interrupt (Enabled or Disabled).
>   

From jtr at jrichards.org  Wed Nov 21 18:21:08 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:21:08 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <4744A2DA.9090302@vargo.org>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
	<20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org> <47449753.3030605@vargo.org>
	<20071121210406.GA2402@jrichards.org> <4744A2DA.9090302@vargo.org>
Message-ID: <20071121232108.GB2402@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 04:27:54PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
> john-thomas richards wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 03:38:43PM -0500, Rick Vargo wrote:
> >   
> >> Are there any sort of adjustments to your onboard video card besides
> >> turning it off?
> >>     
> >
> > There are three settings to the video selection: onboard, PCI, and AGP.
> > When I put the AGP card in and enter the BIOS settings, only PCI and
> > AGP appear as options.  Under "Video Setup" are the options "Active
> > Video" (nVidia when the AGP card is in - not changeable), Shared System
> > Memory (when using onboard video the choices are 512KB and 1 MB), Video
> > Aperture (16, 32, and 64MB), Active Video (PCI or AGP as mentioned
> > above), Palette Snooping, and Video Interrupt (Enabled or Disabled).
> >   
> Try playing with the settings.  I have heard that palette snooping can
> cause issues...  As a matter of fact, I would reset all of the BIOS
> settings to the default and give it a whirl.

Palette Snooping is disabled with AGP.  I reset the BIOS settings to
the default but had to change the boot device order to boot from the
CDROM.  Same result.
--
All change is not growth, as all movement is not forward.
Ellen Glasgow, novelist (1874-1945)

From investmgmt at s91195370.onlinehome.us  Wed Nov 21 21:39:54 2007
From: investmgmt at s91195370.onlinehome.us (Brad Becker)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:39:54 -0700
Subject: [GRLUG] What are you doing to expose people to Linux?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <200711211939.54839.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>

On Tuesday 20 November 2007 13:00:11 Michael Mol wrote:

> (Seemed like a good idea for a discussion, so I split it off.)

I burn a bunch of live cd's, put some fancy graphic on the cd case, then bring 
them to our PC user group meetings promoting it as a safe way to surf the 
internet :)  On the flip side of the graphic, in bold lettering, is something 
to the effect of 'insert cd, restart computer'.  Hmm, maybe I should add 
something like 'having trouble? Join GRLUG!' 

The distro's I typically burn are PCLinuxOS and Sidux because KDE is a bit 
more windows-like plus hardware detection is pretty good, maybe not quite as 
good as Ubuntu but close.

Out of 12 sub-groups the linux group is now #2 in attendance ... behind 
genealogy believe it or not.

Brad Becker






From investmgmt at s91195370.onlinehome.us  Wed Nov 21 21:55:11 2007
From: investmgmt at s91195370.onlinehome.us (Brad Becker)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:55:11 -0700
Subject: [GRLUG] newsletters/rss feeds
Message-ID: <200711211955.11406.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>

Do you have a few favorite newsletters or rss feeds you subscribe to?  I 
mention this because just today I got the latest issue of Gizmo's Support 
Alert Newsletter ...

http://techsupportalert.com/issues/al_current.htm

By the way he lives in Comstock Park.  It's got more of a Windows bent but 
good articles nevertheless.

A few others I like are the Debian Admin and Nixcraft rss feeds.

-------------
Brad Becker
CPU[AMD Sempron 2800+ clocked at 2323.024 Mhz]  Kernel[Linux 
2.6.23.1-slh64-smp-9 x86_64]  Up[-26days-]  Mem[-318.0/499.5MB-]  
HDD[-9GB(45%used)-]  Procs[-85-]  Client[Shell]

From mikemol at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 22:13:05 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:13:05 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] newsletters/rss feeds
In-Reply-To: <200711211955.11406.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>
References: <200711211955.11406.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 21, 2007 9:55 PM, Brad Becker  wrote:
> Do you have a few favorite newsletters or rss feeds you subscribe to?  I
> mention this because just today I got the latest issue of Gizmo's Support
> Alert Newsletter ...
>
> http://techsupportalert.com/issues/al_current.htm
>
> By the way he lives in Comstock Park.  It's got more of a Windows bent but
> good articles nevertheless.
>
> A few others I like are the Debian Admin and Nixcraft rss feeds.

In my "news" category:
http://feeds.arstechnica.com/arstechnica/BAaf
http://www.boingboing.net/atom.xml
http://blogs.zdnet.com/processors/?feed=rss2
http://www.anandtech.com/rss/newsfeed.aspx
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Google/?feed=rss2
http://blogs.zdnet.com/green/?feed=rss2
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?feed=rss2
http://kerneltrap.org/node/feed
http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?feed=rss2
http://osnews.com/files/recent.xml
http://blogs.zdnet.com/threatchaos/?feed=rss2

In my "development" category:
http://wiki.grlug.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&feed=rss
http://nightschool.near-time.net/news/rss?public=true
http://blogs.technet.com/markrussinovich/rss.xml
http://www.readwriteweb.com/rss.xml
http://programming.reddit.com/.rss
http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/rss.xml
http://syndication.thedailywtf.com/TheDailyWtf

In my "comics" category:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/ICanHasCheezburger
http://www.kevinandkell.com/rss.xml
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.rss
http://www.passiveaggressivenotes.com/feed/
http://userfriendly.org/rss/uf.rss
http://xkcd.com/atom.xml

And this goes in my personal category, because it's a personal project
I shouldn't get distracted with at work:
http://rosettacode.org/rosettacode/w/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&namespace=1&feed=rss


-- 
:wq

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 22:36:10 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:36:10 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] What are you doing to expose people to Linux?
In-Reply-To: <200711211939.54839.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>
References: 
	<200711211939.54839.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 21, 2007 9:39 PM, Brad Becker 
wrote:

> On Tuesday 20 November 2007 13:00:11 Michael Mol wrote:
>
> > (Seemed like a good idea for a discussion, so I split it off.)
>
>
>
> The distro's I typically burn are PCLinuxOS and Sidux because KDE is a bit
> more windows-like plus hardware detection is pretty good, maybe not quite
> as
> good as Ubuntu but close.
>
>
>
> Brad Becker
>
>
> Just curious,  according to distrowatch.com
PCLinuxOS is hot right now.  As much so as
Ubuntu it would appear in terms of the activity
numbers.

The question is why?  PCLinuxOS appears to
be a derivative of Mandrake and/or Mandriva,
which has long been considered a good distribution,
and was once a top choice,  but what about it is
drawing all the interest?  Why is someone choosing
it over Ubuntu for example?

     -Bob


But I'm not sure I see

>
>   
>
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From investmgmt at s91195370.onlinehome.us  Wed Nov 21 23:00:06 2007
From: investmgmt at s91195370.onlinehome.us (Brad Becker)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:00:06 -0700
Subject: [GRLUG] What are you doing to expose people to Linux?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<200711211939.54839.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>
	
Message-ID: <200711212100.06209.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>

On Wednesday 21 November 2007 20:36:10 Bob Kline wrote:
> On Nov 21, 2007 9:39 PM, Brad Becker 
>
> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 20 November 2007 13:00:11 Michael Mol wrote:
> > > (Seemed like a good idea for a discussion, so I split it off.)
> >
> > The distro's I typically burn are PCLinuxOS and Sidux because KDE is a
> > bit more windows-like plus hardware detection is pretty good, maybe not
> > quite as
> > good as Ubuntu but close.
> >
> >
> >
> > Brad Becker
> >
> >
> > Just curious,  according to distrowatch.com
>
> PCLinuxOS is hot right now.  As much so as
> Ubuntu it would appear in terms of the activity
> numbers.
>
> The question is why?  PCLinuxOS appears to
> be a derivative of Mandrake and/or Mandriva,
> which has long been considered a good distribution,
> and was once a top choice,  but what about it is
> drawing all the interest?  Why is someone choosing
> it over Ubuntu for example?


Hard to put a finger on just one thing, it's a mix of a nice 'outta the box 
experience' plus multimedia friendly, attention to detail, and excellent 
community support.

A small example of the details thing is the look of Putty.  Check it out:

Kubuntu: http://oberon.gotdns.com/arcturus/putkub.jpg
PCLinuxOS: http://oberon.gotdns.com/arcturus/putpclos.jpg

Brad Becker




From billcreswell at gmail.com  Thu Nov 22 10:18:14 2007
From: billcreswell at gmail.com (Bill Creswell)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:18:14 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] What are you doing to expose people to Linux?
In-Reply-To: <200711212100.06209.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>
References: 
	<200711211939.54839.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>
	
	<200711212100.06209.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>
Message-ID: <52b088230711220718h756e7755uee2c21f02649a1c3@mail.gmail.com>

It's cool to show people who use "doo-dads" the Freespire versions of linux,
with Click and Run downloads of thousands of free programs. Plus with the
built in "proprietary" drivers and programs, it works for most of the little
things that trip people up.

It's easier to mention linux when people have Vista too. My new laptop "hard
freezes" two or three times a week. Doing complicated things like running
Opera, or playing freecell.




-- 
billcreswell.wordpress.com
billcreswell.com
grcomputerworks.com

http://billcreswell.wordpress.com/category/captioned-movie-trailers/
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From radiodurans at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 22 17:45:06 2007
From: radiodurans at yahoo.com (John Harig)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:45:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [GRLUG] What are you doing to expose people to Linux?
In-Reply-To: <52b088230711220718h756e7755uee2c21f02649a1c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <581678.86717.qm@web80401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Im in Colombia introducing women at bars to the
sensitive way in which helping the elderly use
computers with linux, and impressing them with the
fact that Im trying to learn spanish by installing the
Colombian language package in debian.

--- Bill Creswell  wrote:

> It's cool to show people who use "doo-dads" the
> Freespire versions of linux,
> with Click and Run downloads of thousands of free
> programs. Plus with the
> built in "proprietary" drivers and programs, it
> works for most of the little
> things that trip people up.
> 
> It's easier to mention linux when people have Vista
> too. My new laptop "hard
> freezes" two or three times a week. Doing
> complicated things like running
> Opera, or playing freecell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> billcreswell.wordpress.com
> billcreswell.com
> grcomputerworks.com
> 
>
http://billcreswell.wordpress.com/category/captioned-movie-trailers/
> > _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
>
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


From jtr at jrichards.org  Sun Nov 25 17:21:15 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:21:15 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <47449C35.5010909@ameritech.net>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
	<20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org>
	<47449C35.5010909@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20071125222115.GA12755@jrichards.org>

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 03:59:33PM -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> john-thomas richards wrote:
[snip]
> If you really want to you can try to ssh in and see what's what:
> 
> -While on a network let knoppix boot. If you have speakers you should
>   hear "Initiating startup sequence" when it's about ready
> -Do  and press . Even if you can't see it, you
>   are at a root console.
> -Type "/etc/init.d/ssh start " (It ought be ".../sshd start"
>   but on Knoppix it isn't.)
> -Then type "passwd" " and type in a trivial password
>   such as "12345", twice.
> -Find the IP address of the target box, and exercise I'll leave to you.
> -From another box on the network "ssh root at knoppix"
>     Welcome to Knoppix!
>     root at Knoppix:~#
> All this assumes that the machine is working except for the video.
> Working blind like this is weird, and if you fumble you might need to
> reboot. If you get it working, and can't fix the video, you might still
> have a pretty good headless server or router. :)
> 
> At least it's an interesting problem!

I cannot do the above; when th  monitor shuts down t e system becomes
unresponsive and requires a hard reboot.  Either I have three identical
machines that happen to have an identical problem, or I am a complete
idiot.

No responses to that last statement are necessary.

Seriously.

;-)
-- 
john-thomas
------
Better than a thousand days of diligent study is one day with a great
teacher.
Japanese proverb

From driveray at ameritech.net  Sun Nov 25 17:21:03 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:21:03 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <20071125222115.GA12755@jrichards.org>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>	<20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org>	<47449C35.5010909@ameritech.net>
	<20071125222115.GA12755@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <4749F54F.8040808@ameritech.net>

john-thomas richards wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 03:59:33PM -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
>> john-thomas richards wrote:
> [snip]
>> If you really want to you can try to ssh in and see what's what:
>>
>> -While on a network let knoppix boot. If you have speakers you should
>>   hear "Initiating startup sequence" when it's about ready
>> -Do  and press . Even if you can't see it, you
>>   are at a root console.
>> -Type "/etc/init.d/ssh start " (It ought be ".../sshd start"
>>   but on Knoppix it isn't.)
>> -Then type "passwd" " and type in a trivial password
>>   such as "12345", twice.
>> -Find the IP address of the target box, and exercise I'll leave to you.
>> -From another box on the network "ssh root at knoppix"
>>     Welcome to Knoppix!
>>     root at Knoppix:~#
>> All this assumes that the machine is working except for the video.
>> Working blind like this is weird, and if you fumble you might need to
>> reboot. If you get it working, and can't fix the video, you might still
>> have a pretty good headless server or router. :)
>>
>> At least it's an interesting problem!
> 
> I cannot do the above; when th  monitor shuts down t e system becomes
> unresponsive and requires a hard reboot.

Unresponsive to the point that the  and  LEDs don't
toggle?

In case no one else suggested it, have you tried a new power supply?

>  Either I have three identical
> machines that happen to have an identical problem, or I am a complete
> idiot.
> 
> No responses to that last statement are necessary.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> ;-)


From jtr at jrichards.org  Sun Nov 25 17:48:40 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:48:40 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <4749F54F.8040808@ameritech.net>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
	<20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org>
	<47449C35.5010909@ameritech.net>
	<20071125222115.GA12755@jrichards.org>
	<4749F54F.8040808@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20071125224840.GA13742@jrichards.org>

On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 05:21:03PM -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> john-thomas richards wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 03:59:33PM -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> >> john-thomas richards wrote:
> > [snip]
> >> If you really want to you can try to ssh in and see what's what:
> >>
> >> -While on a network let knoppix boot. If you have speakers you should
> >>   hear "Initiating startup sequence" when it's about ready
> >> -Do  and press . Even if you can't see it, you
> >>   are at a root console.
> >> -Type "/etc/init.d/ssh start " (It ought be ".../sshd start"
> >>   but on Knoppix it isn't.)
> >> -Then type "passwd" " and type in a trivial password
> >>   such as "12345", twice.
> >> -Find the IP address of the target box, and exercise I'll leave to you.
> >> -From another box on the network "ssh root at knoppix"
> >>     Welcome to Knoppix!
> >>     root at Knoppix:~#
> >> All this assumes that the machine is working except for the video.
> >> Working blind like this is weird, and if you fumble you might need to
> >> reboot. If you get it working, and can't fix the video, you might still
> >> have a pretty good headless server or router. :)
> >>
> >> At least it's an interesting problem!
> > 
> > I cannot do the above; when th  monitor shuts down t e system becomes
> > unresponsive and requires a hard reboot.
> 
> Unresponsive to the point that the  and  LEDs don't
> toggle?

Yes, the LEDs do not toggle.

> In case no one else suggested it, have you tried a new power supply?

I have not.  Could *all three* power supplies on the three machines be
bad?

> >  Either I have three identical
> > machines that happen to have an identical problem, or I am a complete
> > idiot.
> > 
> > No responses to that last statement are necessary.
> 

Thank you.  :-)
-- 
john-thomas
------
Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes.
Edgard Varese, composer (1885-1965)

From topher at wcsg.org  Sun Nov 25 18:37:15 2007
From: topher at wcsg.org (Topher)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:37:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <20071125224840.GA13742@jrichards.org>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
	<20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org>
	<47449C35.5010909@ameritech.net> <20071125222115.GA12755@jrichards.org>
	<4749F54F.8040808@ameritech.net> <20071125224840.GA13742@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: 

> I have not.  Could *all three* power supplies on the three machines be 
> bad?

I could see it happening, it all three experienced a similar power surge 
at some point in the past.  If they all came from a similar environment 
they could experience lots of similar things in that regard, like sucking 
stuff from the air in the front and blowing it out the back by the power 
supply fan.

Topher
Manager of Internet Services
Cornerstone University Radio

------
perl -e 'print join "", (map({chr(oct("0b".$_))} (shift =~ /\d{8}/g))),"\n"' \
010010010010000001110111011010010111001101101000001000000100100100100000011010110110111001100101011101110010000001100010011010010110111001100001011100100111100100101110

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Sun Nov 25 18:38:55 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:38:55 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Laptop battery life
Message-ID: 

An acquaintance with a laptop
running Apple's OS X has noticed
that Firefox consumes a lot more
power just sitting there than Safari,
the default browser,  does.

A power monitoring program shows
that other fluff running in the background
also chews up a lot of power - this
measured in terms of the percentage of
CPU use.  And the one that chews up the
most is the power monitoring program,
but that's OK while one is figuring out
what is going on.

Anyway,  has anyone noticed anything
similar about Firefox under Linux on a
laptop?   There's no particular reason
to think anything would be different,
but that's not proof.  In an environment
where battery life is at a premium,  one
plays the game of getting rid of everything
within reason that just sits and eats up
minutes of batter life.

The person with the OS X system says
that in the resting state Safari uses no
power.  Why might this be?  Do the
plugins, for example,  in Firefox typically
run in the background?

    -Bob
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From driveray at ameritech.net  Sun Nov 25 20:11:51 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:11:51 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: 
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>	<20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org>	<47449C35.5010909@ameritech.net>
	<20071125222115.GA12755@jrichards.org>	<4749F54F.8040808@ameritech.net>
	<20071125224840.GA13742@jrichards.org>
	
Message-ID: <474A1D57.10904@ameritech.net>

Topher wrote:
>> I have not.  Could *all three* power supplies on the three machines be 
>> bad?
> 
> I could see it happening, it all three experienced a similar power surge 
> at some point in the past.  If they all came from a similar environment 
> they could experience lots of similar things in that regard, like sucking 
> stuff from the air in the front and blowing it out the back by the power 
> supply fan.

And additionally they are all made from identical parts, and so could
all have a the same point of failure. A known good power supply is
definitely worth trying.

From JOlding at gts.gaineycorp.com  Mon Nov 26 07:54:00 2007
From: JOlding at gts.gaineycorp.com (Olding, Jim)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:54:00 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Laptop battery life
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

I haven't tried any tests of battery life with Firefox myself, but you
might be interested in a program called PowerTop from Intel

http://www.lesswatts.org/projects/powertop/

Perhaps Firefox is constantly keeping the cpu active because it is
trying to manage in-memory cache constantly, while Safari isn't as
aggressive with caching (I've got nothing to back this up, just
guessing)?

________________________________

From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf
Of Bob Kline
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 6:39 PM
To: grlug
Subject: [GRLUG] Laptop battery life

The person with the OS X system says 
that in the resting state Safari uses no 
power.  Why might this be?  Do the 
plugins, for example,  in Firefox typically
run in the background?

    -Bob



From jtr at jrichards.org  Mon Nov 26 11:48:36 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:48:36 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <474A1D57.10904@ameritech.net>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>
	<20071121203345.GA1133@jrichards.org>
	<47449C35.5010909@ameritech.net>
	<20071125222115.GA12755@jrichards.org>
	<4749F54F.8040808@ameritech.net>
	<20071125224840.GA13742@jrichards.org>
	
	<474A1D57.10904@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20071126164836.GB7567@jrichards.org>

On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 08:11:51PM -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Topher wrote:
> >> I have not.  Could *all three* power supplies on the three machines be 
> >> bad?
> > 
> > I could see it happening, it all three experienced a similar power surge 
> > at some point in the past.  If they all came from a similar environment 
> > they could experience lots of similar things in that regard, like sucking 
> > stuff from the air in the front and blowing it out the back by the power 
> > supply fan.
> 
> And additionally they are all made from identical parts, and so could
> all have a the same point of failure. A known good power supply is
> definitely worth trying.

The machines came from the same source so this is certainly possible.
I need to get a power supply to swap with it.

Thanks.
-- 
john-thomas
------
Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes.
Edgard Varese, composer (1885-1965)

From investmgmt at s91195370.onlinehome.us  Mon Nov 26 21:18:37 2007
From: investmgmt at s91195370.onlinehome.us (Brad Becker)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:18:37 -0700
Subject: [GRLUG] IRC Channel
Message-ID: <200711261918.37767.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>

Think it's worth a mention that GRLUG has an IRC Channel
up and running.

#grlug on Freenode 

Brad Becker
----------------
CPU[AMD Sempron 2800+ clocked at 2323.024 Mhz]  Kernel[Linux 
2.6.23.1-slh64-smp-9 x86_64]  Up[-31days-]  Mem[-313.4/499.5MB-]  
HDD[-9GB(45%used)-]

From dond at standalelumber.com  Mon Nov 26 21:28:47 2007
From: dond at standalelumber.com (Don Wood)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:28:47 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] IRC Channel
In-Reply-To: <200711261918.37767.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>
References: <200711261918.37767.investmgmt@s91195370.onlinehome.us>
Message-ID: <1196130527.6062.7.camel@donw-laptop>

Thanks for the info. 


From tehpopa at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 15:43:00 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:43:00 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
Message-ID: 

Howdy,

I've got a bunch(approx 200) flash drives that I have to manage for my
company. They're used for digital dictation, and the dictation devices
unfortunately have a tendency to corrupt the drives. Anyone have any
suggestions for recovery? I've used a few windows apps in the past and while
they work most of the time, there's that 1% chance that I'm screwed. Like
right now! :P So yeah, any ideas on software alternatives in either Linux or
Windows would be great. Thanks!
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From dond at standalelumber.com  Wed Nov 28 16:32:28 2007
From: dond at standalelumber.com (Don Wood)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:32:28 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>

Do you mean incremental backups? or once it's configured doing something
like ghosting it?


On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 15:43 -0500, Justin Popa wrote:
> Howdy,
> 
> I've got a bunch(approx 200) flash drives that I have to manage for my
> company. They're used for digital dictation, and the dictation devices
> unfortunately have a tendency to corrupt the drives. Anyone have any
> suggestions for recovery? I've used a few windows apps in the past and
> while they work most of the time, there's that 1% chance that I'm
> screwed. Like right now! :P So yeah, any ideas on software
> alternatives in either Linux or Windows would be great. Thanks! 
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


From dond at standalelumber.com  Wed Nov 28 16:38:03 2007
From: dond at standalelumber.com (Don Wood)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:38:03 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Linux Desktop White Paper
Message-ID: <1196285883.7817.5.camel@donw-laptop>

I received an offer for this free.

Free White Paper

Four Linux Desktops Tackle the Enterprise
The year 2007 might be remembered as the year when Linux corporate
desktops stood up to Windows Vista. Hewlett-Packard recently announced
it is making large deals with Linux desktops and these orders might be a
signal of an important shift in the market. For this review, the CRNTest
Center evaluated offerings from the four leading Linux enterprise
desktop alternatives: Linspire Five-O, Novell SUSE Linux Enterprise
Desktop, the newly released Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop 5.0 and
Xandros 4 Professional. This independent technology review of these four
enterprise desktops demonstrates why Novell appears to be the most
comprehensive alternative to Microsoft Windows. 



Does anyone else find it disturbing that they didn't include at least
ubuntu, debian, or fedora?


From tehpopa at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 16:41:15 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:41:15 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: <1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>
References: 
	<1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>
Message-ID: 

More like after using them for 2-3 months the FAT table gets Fubared.

On Nov 28, 2007 4:32 PM, Don Wood  wrote:

> Do you mean incremental backups? or once it's configured doing something
> like ghosting it?
>
>
> On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 15:43 -0500, Justin Popa wrote:
> > Howdy,
> >
> > I've got a bunch(approx 200) flash drives that I have to manage for my
> > company. They're used for digital dictation, and the dictation devices
> > unfortunately have a tendency to corrupt the drives. Anyone have any
> > suggestions for recovery? I've used a few windows apps in the past and
> > while they work most of the time, there's that 1% chance that I'm
> > screwed. Like right now! :P So yeah, any ideas on software
> > alternatives in either Linux or Windows would be great. Thanks!
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From JOlding at gts.gaineycorp.com  Wed Nov 28 16:45:05 2007
From: JOlding at gts.gaineycorp.com (Olding, Jim)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:45:05 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Linux Desktop White Paper
In-Reply-To: <1196285883.7817.5.camel@donw-laptop>
References: <1196285883.7817.5.camel@donw-laptop>
Message-ID: 

I would guess that it covers the 'commercial' version of those distros

Linspire: Ubuntu
Xandros: Debian
SUSE: OpenSUSE
RHEL: Fedora

The lack of Ubuntu is somewhat surprising still, considering that they
do offer commercial support for it, unlike the others. 

-----Original Message-----
From: grlug-bounces at grlug.org [mailto:grlug-bounces at grlug.org] On Behalf
Of Don Wood
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:38 PM
To: grlug at grlug.org
Subject: [GRLUG] Linux Desktop White Paper

I received an offer for this free.

Free White Paper

Four Linux Desktops Tackle the Enterprise The year 2007 might be
remembered as the year when Linux corporate desktops stood up to Windows
Vista. Hewlett-Packard recently announced it is making large deals with
Linux desktops and these orders might be a signal of an important shift
in the market. For this review, the CRNTest Center evaluated offerings
from the four leading Linux enterprise desktop alternatives: Linspire
Five-O, Novell SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop, the newly released Red Hat
Enterprise Linux Desktop 5.0 and Xandros 4 Professional. This
independent technology review of these four enterprise desktops
demonstrates why Novell appears to be the most comprehensive alternative
to Microsoft Windows. 



Does anyone else find it disturbing that they didn't include at least
ubuntu, debian, or fedora?

_______________________________________________
grlug mailing list
grlug at grlug.org
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

From rick at vargo.org  Wed Nov 28 16:46:20 2007
From: rick at vargo.org (Rick Vargo)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:46:20 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: 
References: 	<1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>
	
Message-ID: <474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>

Is FAT all that the dictation devices support?  If the devices support
other more robust filesystems (with journaling) use them in lieu of FAT.

Rick


Justin Popa wrote:
> More like after using them for 2-3 months the FAT table gets Fubared.
>
> On Nov 28, 2007 4:32 PM, Don Wood  > wrote:
>
>     Do you mean incremental backups? or once it's configured doing
>     something
>     like ghosting it?
>
>
>
>     On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 15:43 -0500, Justin Popa wrote:
>     > Howdy,
>     >
>     > I've got a bunch(approx 200) flash drives that I have to manage
>     for my
>     > company. They're used for digital dictation, and the dictation
>     devices
>     > unfortunately have a tendency to corrupt the drives. Anyone have any
>     > suggestions for recovery? I've used a few windows apps in the
>     past and
>     > while they work most of the time, there's that 1% chance that I'm
>     > screwed. Like right now! :P So yeah, any ideas on software
>     > alternatives in either Linux or Windows would be great. Thanks!
>
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > grlug mailing list
>     > grlug at grlug.org 
>     > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     grlug mailing list
>     grlug at grlug.org 
>     http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

From bob.kline at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 16:49:16 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:49:16 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Linux Desktop White Paper
In-Reply-To: <1196285883.7817.5.camel@donw-laptop>
References: <1196285883.7817.5.camel@donw-laptop>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 28, 2007 4:38 PM, Don Wood  wrote:

> I received an offer for this free.
>
> Free White Paper
>
> Four Linux Desktops Tackle the Enterprise
> The year 2007 might be remembered as the year when Linux corporate
> desktops stood up to Windows Vista. Hewlett-Packard recently announced
> it is making large deals with Linux desktops and these orders might be a
> signal of an important shift in the market. For this review, the CRNTest
> Center evaluated offerings from the four leading Linux enterprise
> desktop alternatives: Linspire Five-O, Novell SUSE Linux Enterprise
> Desktop, the newly released Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop 5.0 and
> Xandros 4 Professional. This independent technology review of these four
> enterprise desktops demonstrates why Novell appears to be the most
> comprehensive alternative to Microsoft Windows.
>
>
>
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that they didn't include at least
> ubuntu, debian, or fedora?
>
>

Red Hat is in there. SuSe and Red Hat
represent corporate backing I'd guess.
Not clear about Linspire and Xandros
and why they qualify as "leading."

All that comes to mind is that companies
offering boxes want distributions that
come with a corporate seal of approval.
Someone to go after if something is wrong
and be able to demand that something be
done about it.

Ubuntu and Debian cost nothing, so they
don't come with a guarantee they work or
will be fixed or that anyone stands behind
them.  Never mind that they do work and
that people do fix things - you can't push
on anyone to do it on schedule.

     -Bob
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From adderd at kkmfg.com  Wed Nov 28 20:00:37 2007
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (adderd at kkmfg.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:00:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: <474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>
References: 
	<1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>
	
	<474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>
Message-ID: <50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>

On Wed, November 28, 2007 4:46 pm, Rick Vargo wrote:
> Is FAT all that the dictation devices support?  If the devices support
> other more robust filesystems (with journaling) use them in lieu of FAT.
>
> Rick

I'm sure that they don't support anything other than FAT and if they did
you would still not want to do it. Journaling is bad, bad, bad to use on
flash drives. It wears them out. Granted, it sounds as if the dictation
equipment is junk and routinely destroys the drives anyway...

Probably the best solution involves frequent backups and lots of spares.


From mikemol at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 20:59:06 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:59:06 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: <50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>
References: 
	<1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>
	
	<474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>
	<50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 28, 2007 8:00 PM,   wrote:
> On Wed, November 28, 2007 4:46 pm, Rick Vargo wrote:
> > Is FAT all that the dictation devices support?  If the devices support
> > other more robust filesystems (with journaling) use them in lieu of FAT.
> >
> > Rick
>
> I'm sure that they don't support anything other than FAT and if they did
> you would still not want to do it. Journaling is bad, bad, bad to use on
> flash drives. It wears them out.

Not really true on modern flash devices with much better per-cell
lifetimes and with wear-leveling.  Granted, with 200 of them, there
were probably bought bottom-dollar discount, and may not have such
features. :-)

> Granted, it sounds as if the dictation equipment is junk and routinely
> destroys the drives anyway...
>
> Probably the best solution involves frequent backups and lots of spares.

Indeed.

-- 
:wq

From tehpopa at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 09:35:11 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:35:11 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>
	
	<474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>
	<50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>
	
Message-ID: 

Well here's the issue. These are used by doctors every 30 minutes. Basically
goes like this:

Doc sees patient.
Doc dictates letter.
(Repeat 4-5 times)
Doc inserts dictation device into cradle and it downloads information and
erases original files.

Rinse and repeat 10 times a day, for 30 doctors.

On Nov 28, 2007 8:59 PM, Michael Mol  wrote:

> On Nov 28, 2007 8:00 PM,   wrote:
> > On Wed, November 28, 2007 4:46 pm, Rick Vargo wrote:
> > > Is FAT all that the dictation devices support?  If the devices support
> > > other more robust filesystems (with journaling) use them in lieu of
> FAT.
> > >
> > > Rick
> >
> > I'm sure that they don't support anything other than FAT and if they did
> > you would still not want to do it. Journaling is bad, bad, bad to use on
> > flash drives. It wears them out.
>
> Not really true on modern flash devices with much better per-cell
> lifetimes and with wear-leveling.  Granted, with 200 of them, there
> were probably bought bottom-dollar discount, and may not have such
> features. :-)
>
> > Granted, it sounds as if the dictation equipment is junk and routinely
> > destroys the drives anyway...
> >
> > Probably the best solution involves frequent backups and lots of spares.
>
> Indeed.
>
> --
> :wq
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From mikemol at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 10:38:56 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:38:56 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>
	
	<474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>
	<50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>
	
	
Message-ID: 

On Nov 29, 2007 9:35 AM, Justin Popa  wrote:
> Well here's the issue. These are used by doctors every 30 minutes. Basically
> goes like this:
>
> Doc sees patient.
> Doc dictates letter.
> (Repeat 4-5 times)
> Doc inserts dictation device into cradle and it downloads information and
> erases original files.
>
> Rinse and repeat 10 times a day, for 30 doctors.

I'd suggest increasing the frequency of cradle visits.  When the
machines corrupt the drives, is the most-recently-recorded data also
corrupt, or just the other data that hasn't seen a cradle yet?

I seem to recall that the FAT filesystems have a backup table, too.
But it's been ages since I fiddled with fsck.vfat
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 28, 2007 8:59 PM, Michael Mol  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 28, 2007 8:00 PM,   wrote:
> > > On Wed, November 28, 2007 4:46 pm, Rick Vargo wrote:
> > > > Is FAT all that the dictation devices support?  If the devices support
> > > > other more robust filesystems (with journaling) use them in lieu of
> FAT.
> > > >
> > > > Rick
> > >
> > > I'm sure that they don't support anything other than FAT and if they did
> > > you would still not want to do it. Journaling is bad, bad, bad to use on
> > > flash drives. It wears them out.
> >
> > Not really true on modern flash devices with much better per-cell
> > lifetimes and with wear-leveling.  Granted, with 200 of them, there
> > were probably bought bottom-dollar discount, and may not have such
> > features. :-)
> >
> >
> >
> > > Granted, it sounds as if the dictation equipment is junk and routinely
> > > destroys the drives anyway...
> > >
> > > Probably the best solution involves frequent backups and lots of spares.
> >
> > Indeed.
> >
> > --
> > :wq
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>



-- 
:wq

From dond at standalelumber.com  Thu Nov 29 11:24:32 2007
From: dond at standalelumber.com (Don Wood)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:24:32 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: <50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>
References: 	
	<1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>	
		
	<474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>	
	<50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: <1196353472.6541.6.camel@donw-laptop>



I'm wondering if you can have a script start automatically when they are
inserted into a computer and rsync them to a linux box on the network. 


From brousch at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 11:52:58 2007
From: brousch at gmail.com (Ben Rousch)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:52:58 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>
	
	<474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>
	<50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

>
> I'd suggest increasing the frequency of cradle visits.  When the
> machines corrupt the drives, is the most-recently-recorded data also
> corrupt, or just the other data that hasn't seen a cradle yet?
>
> I seem to recall that the FAT filesystems have a backup table, too.
> But it's been ages since I fiddled with fsck.vfat


I would suggest reformatting the cards more frequently. I have had similar
problems with card corruption in a digital camera and frequent reformatting
seems to have fixed that problem. Considering the medical nature of the data
being stored, pull each card aside once a week and format it to be safe. You
might also consider tracking corruption for each card so you can tell if
it's one or two cards that are the problem, or the whole batch.
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From cdubois at n-vint.com  Thu Nov 29 12:02:10 2007
From: cdubois at n-vint.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:02:10 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>
	
	<474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>
	<50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>
	
	
Message-ID: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF9689@NVMBX01.nvint.local>

Recovery options:

1- Magic Recovery Pro (www.software-recovery.com)
2- Recover My Files (www.recovermyfiles.com)

Suggestions for preventing lost files:

1- Change the drive - try some different (more expensive) USB drives.
2- Change the process - The most likely cause of these errors would be premature removal of the drives (windows stop hardware B.S.)

Casey

________________________________________
From: Justin Popa [mailto:tehpopa at gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 9:35 AM
To: grlug at grlug.org
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery

Well here's the issue. These are used by doctors every 30 minutes. Basically goes like this:

Doc sees patient.
Doc dictates letter.
(Repeat 4-5 times)
Doc inserts dictation device into cradle and it downloads information and erases original files.

Rinse and repeat 10 times a day, for 30 doctors.
On Nov 28, 2007 8:59 PM, Michael Mol  wrote:
On Nov 28, 2007 8:00 PM,   wrote:
> On Wed, November 28, 2007 4:46 pm, Rick Vargo wrote:
> > Is FAT all that the dictation devices support?  If the devices support
> > other more robust filesystems (with journaling) use them in lieu of FAT.
> >
> > Rick
>
> I'm sure that they don't support anything other than FAT and if they did
> you would still not want to do it. Journaling is bad, bad, bad to use on
> flash drives. It wears them out.
Not really true on modern flash devices with much better per-cell
lifetimes and with wear-leveling.  Granted, with 200 of them, there
were probably bought bottom-dollar discount, and may not have such
features. :-)

> Granted, it sounds as if the dictation equipment is junk and routinely
> destroys the drives anyway...
>
> Probably the best solution involves frequent backups and lots of spares.
Indeed.

--
:wq
_______________________________________________
grlug mailing list
grlug at grlug.org
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


From tehpopa at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 12:09:33 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:09:33 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>
	
	<474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>
	<50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: 

All great suggestions, but they are doctors, so they get their way.
Infrequent downloading because they're too busy most of the time. We also
had originally set up a 'never to leave the office with this device' policy,
but now we're replacing about 1 a month due to lost items(lost at home, in
another state, on a plane, in the lake). That's why I'm more in the mood of
finding some decent recovery software than changing how they handle them.
It's just impossible. Anyway, I found Runtime Software's "GetDataBack for
FAT" that runs on Windows. It's recovered them and seems to be working fine.

On Nov 29, 2007 11:52 AM, Ben Rousch  wrote:

> I'd suggest increasing the frequency of cradle visits.  When the
> > machines corrupt the drives, is the most-recently-recorded data also
> > corrupt, or just the other data that hasn't seen a cradle yet?
> >
> > I seem to recall that the FAT filesystems have a backup table, too.
> > But it's been ages since I fiddled with fsck.vfat
>
>
>
> I would suggest reformatting the cards more frequently. I have had similar
> problems with card corruption in a digital camera and frequent reformatting
> seems to have fixed that problem. Considering the medical nature of the data
> being stored, pull each card aside once a week and format it to be safe. You
> might also consider tracking corruption for each card so you can tell if
> it's one or two cards that are the problem, or the whole batch.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From adderd at kkmfg.com  Thu Nov 29 12:24:52 2007
From: adderd at kkmfg.com (Collin Kidder)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:24:52 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: 
References: 	<1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>		<474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>	<50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>				
	
Message-ID: <474EF5E4.5030302@kkmfg.com>

Something Casey said made me think of another potential suggestion:

Some versions of windows default to write caching even flash drives. If 
windows does that and somebody yanks the drive without properly stopping 
the device first then they run the risk of blowing the fat table. This 
could be prevented by forcing windows to not write cache the drive.

Justin Popa wrote:
> All great suggestions, but they are doctors, so they get their way.
> Infrequent downloading because they're too busy most of the time. We also
> had originally set up a 'never to leave the office with this device' policy,
> but now we're replacing about 1 a month due to lost items(lost at home, in
> another state, on a plane, in the lake). That's why I'm more in the mood of
> finding some decent recovery software than changing how they handle them.
> It's just impossible. Anyway, I found Runtime Software's "GetDataBack for
> FAT" that runs on Windows. It's recovered them and seems to be working fine.
>
> On Nov 29, 2007 11:52 AM, Ben Rousch  wrote:
>
>   
>> I'd suggest increasing the frequency of cradle visits.  When the
>>     
>>> machines corrupt the drives, is the most-recently-recorded data also
>>> corrupt, or just the other data that hasn't seen a cradle yet?
>>>
>>> I seem to recall that the FAT filesystems have a backup table, too.
>>> But it's been ages since I fiddled with fsck.vfat
>>>       
>>
>> I would suggest reformatting the cards more frequently. I have had similar
>> problems with card corruption in a digital camera and frequent reformatting
>> seems to have fixed that problem. Considering the medical nature of the data
>> being stored, pull each card aside once a week and format it to be safe. You
>> might also consider tracking corruption for each card so you can tell if
>> it's one or two cards that are the problem, or the whole batch.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> grlug mailing list
>> grlug at grlug.org
>> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>>
>>     
>
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


From tehpopa at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 12:37:54 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:37:54 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: <474EF5E4.5030302@kkmfg.com>
References: 
	
	<474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>
	<50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>
	
	
	
	
	
	<474EF5E4.5030302@kkmfg.com>
Message-ID: 

Yeah, that would make sense. One of the things we can prove have caused this
is the opening and closing of the xD card bay while a dictation file is
currently being written. We've watched some docs rapid fire flip it open and
closed, which doesn't cleanly eject the disk.

On Nov 29, 2007 12:24 PM, Collin Kidder  wrote:

> Something Casey said made me think of another potential suggestion:
>
> Some versions of windows default to write caching even flash drives. If
> windows does that and somebody yanks the drive without properly stopping
> the device first then they run the risk of blowing the fat table. This
> could be prevented by forcing windows to not write cache the drive.
>
> Justin Popa wrote:
> > All great suggestions, but they are doctors, so they get their way.
> > Infrequent downloading because they're too busy most of the time. We
> also
> > had originally set up a 'never to leave the office with this device'
> policy,
> > but now we're replacing about 1 a month due to lost items(lost at home,
> in
> > another state, on a plane, in the lake). That's why I'm more in the mood
> of
> > finding some decent recovery software than changing how they handle
> them.
> > It's just impossible. Anyway, I found Runtime Software's "GetDataBack
> for
> > FAT" that runs on Windows. It's recovered them and seems to be working
> fine.
> >
> > On Nov 29, 2007 11:52 AM, Ben Rousch  wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I'd suggest increasing the frequency of cradle visits.  When the
> >>
> >>> machines corrupt the drives, is the most-recently-recorded data also
> >>> corrupt, or just the other data that hasn't seen a cradle yet?
> >>>
> >>> I seem to recall that the FAT filesystems have a backup table, too.
> >>> But it's been ages since I fiddled with fsck.vfat
> >>>
> >>
> >> I would suggest reformatting the cards more frequently. I have had
> similar
> >> problems with card corruption in a digital camera and frequent
> reformatting
> >> seems to have fixed that problem. Considering the medical nature of the
> data
> >> being stored, pull each card aside once a week and format it to be
> safe. You
> >> might also consider tracking corruption for each card so you can tell
> if
> >> it's one or two cards that are the problem, or the whole batch.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> grlug mailing list
> >> grlug at grlug.org
> >> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From cdubois at n-vint.com  Thu Nov 29 12:38:47 2007
From: cdubois at n-vint.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:38:47 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<1196285548.7817.1.camel@donw-laptop>
	
	<474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>
	<50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>
	
	
	
	
	
Message-ID: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF96A4@NVMBX01.nvint.local>


Regarding these LOST drives...
You can purchase drives with encryption software loaded so that these LOST drives cannot be accessed by the wrong person. There are also fingerprint drives that do the same thing. I have a Lexar unit that seems to work good.

These 2 options would just help ensure NO data gets in the wrong hands.

Casey


-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Popa [mailto:tehpopa at gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:10 PM
To: grlug at grlug.org
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery

All great suggestions, but they are doctors, so they get their way.
Infrequent downloading because they're too busy most of the time. We also
had originally set up a 'never to leave the office with this device' policy,
but now we're replacing about 1 a month due to lost items(lost at home, in
another state, on a plane, in the lake). That's why I'm more in the mood of
finding some decent recovery software than changing how they handle them.
It's just impossible. Anyway, I found Runtime Software's "GetDataBack for
FAT" that runs on Windows. It's recovered them and seems to be working fine.

On Nov 29, 2007 11:52 AM, Ben Rousch  wrote:

> I'd suggest increasing the frequency of cradle visits.  When the
> > machines corrupt the drives, is the most-recently-recorded data also
> > corrupt, or just the other data that hasn't seen a cradle yet?
> >
> > I seem to recall that the FAT filesystems have a backup table, too.
> > But it's been ages since I fiddled with fsck.vfat
>
>
>
> I would suggest reformatting the cards more frequently. I have had similar
> problems with card corruption in a digital camera and frequent reformatting
> seems to have fixed that problem. Considering the medical nature of the data
> being stored, pull each card aside once a week and format it to be safe. You
> might also consider tracking corruption for each card so you can tell if
> it's one or two cards that are the problem, or the whole batch.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>

From timschmidt at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 13:27:10 2007
From: timschmidt at gmail.com (Tim Schmidt)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:27:10 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Flash Disk Recovery
In-Reply-To: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF96A4@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: 
	
	<474DE1AC.3050405@vargo.org>
	<50162.68.42.246.96.1196298037.squirrel@www.kkmfg.com>
	
	
	
	
	
	<9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF96A4@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <2c97fe9d0711291027v70c6493dg3a2acfdeb2453e4a@mail.gmail.com>

I'm absolutely stunned no one's mentioned PhotoRec (!)
http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/PhotoRec

It's sort of the definitive FOSS 'my flash drive's been corrupted!'
solution.  Even works well on old floppies and dying hard drives :)

--tim

From drehfeldtusa at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 13:51:11 2007
From: drehfeldtusa at gmail.com (Douglas Rehfeldt)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:51:11 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Data on portable media
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <001001c832b8$d0676f30$02c8a8c0@bigburner>

The statement "but now we're replacing about 1 a month due to lost items"
got me thinking.  Mmm, I would guess that there are some HIPAA requirements
related to this data.  Encryption might not just be an option.  

An organization is charged with securing confidential information. It can be
held negligent if it does not take "reasonable steps" to protect the
information.  Consider a jury trial involving a negligence lawsuit, would
the jurors consider allowing thumb drives without encryption or a secured
file system a reasonable action by an organization charged with securing
their private information? I'm not a lawyer, but if I was a juror for a
HIPAA-type organization on trial, it would be difficult to convince me that
the organization wasn't negligent given the technology and security controls
available today.  Then again, I'm not a lawyer.


From dond at standalelumber.com  Thu Nov 29 13:55:28 2007
From: dond at standalelumber.com (Don Wood)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:55:28 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
In-Reply-To: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF92BB@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: <7cd69fdf0711210559q1417b727s69a8d3c48ea1e767@mail.gmail.com>	
	<20071121142412.GC21155@jrichards.org>	
	<9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF92BB@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <1196362528.8103.3.camel@donw-laptop>

Were you actually serious about this?


On Wed, 2007-11-21 at 09:27 -0500, Casey DuBois wrote:
> I've got a pile of FREE 15-17" CRT's in Jenison if anyone wants some.
> Casey
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: john-thomas richards [mailto:jtr at jrichards.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 9:24 AM
> To: grlug at grlug.org
> Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Monitor Sleeping, Sorry, My first Post...Ever
> 
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 08:59:45AM -0500, Adam M. Erickson wrote:
> > Well actually my second, my first time it was in RTF on accident,
> > really sorry for the mess that posted.
> >
> > THis is going to sound like a low tech solution but somethimes that is
> > the best fix. You mentioned that the monitor dims on serveral of the
> > same type of machine running Knoppix and/or XP. With/without NVIDIA
> > and changes to all bios settiengs you can think of.
> >
> > The only other solution I can think of is that your monitor is either
> > shot or has a messed up energy setting. Have you tried replacing the
> > monitor and did it dim when you started the memtest?
> 
> I am wondering if the monitor is the cause.  That seems to be the most
> logical at this point, though I did have the same result with an LCD on
> one of the attempts to install [XP|Knoppix] (I do not remember which).
> I am not sure if I have another CRT around!  When I bought my house a
> year and a half ago I got rid of a *bunch* of stuff, including old 15"
> CRT's.  I may have one in the garage.  May.  :-|
> --
> john-thomas
> ------
> Metaphysics means only an unusually obstinate attempt to think clearly
> and consistently.
> William James
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


From weeneedhelp at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 14:01:48 2007
From: weeneedhelp at gmail.com (Jorge La)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:01:48 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu installation problem
Message-ID: 

I just recently return home from active duty and bought a Presario F700. I
tried to install Ubuntu 7.10 on it, but the live CD does not boot correctly.
I tried other older distros that I had laying around the house before I
left. None of them worked except for DSL and Slax-I was kind of surprised.
After some research, I found that this laptop has ACPI problems with linux.
I'm not the only one who has problem with Linux on this laptop.

I even try to boot with noacpi and acpi off but it still does not boot
correctly. Single user and failsafe mode does not boot also. I am very
confused. I can install Ubuntu with the Alt installer, but I can not log in,
text or GUI mode.

any help? (I got home 3 days after the install fest :-/)
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From dond at standalelumber.com  Thu Nov 29 14:05:07 2007
From: dond at standalelumber.com (Don Wood)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:05:07 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu installation problem
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <1196363107.8103.9.camel@donw-laptop>

Welcome home and a big thank you!

I had something similar with an older laptop with ubuntu. I ended up
installing Debian etch from a net install disc.


On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 14:01 -0500, Jorge La wrote:
> I just recently return home from active duty and bought a Presario
> F700. I tried to install Ubuntu 7.10 on it, but the live CD does not
> boot correctly. I tried other older distros that I had laying around
> the house before I left. None of them worked except for DSL and Slax-I
> was kind of surprised. After some research, I found that this laptop
> has ACPI problems with linux. I'm not the only one who has problem
> with Linux on this laptop. 
> 
> I even try to boot with noacpi and acpi off but it still does not boot
> correctly. Single user and failsafe mode does not boot also. I am very
> confused. I can install Ubuntu with the Alt installer, but I can not
> log in, text or GUI mode. 
> 
> any help? (I got home 3 days after the install fest :-/)
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug


From weeneedhelp at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 14:08:16 2007
From: weeneedhelp at gmail.com (Jorge La)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:08:16 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu installation problem
In-Reply-To: <1196363107.8103.9.camel@donw-laptop>
References: 
	<1196363107.8103.9.camel@donw-laptop>
Message-ID: 

installing it not the problem, it's getting it to start.

and you're welcome, just keep on paying you're taxes :)

On Nov 29, 2007 2:05 PM, Don Wood  wrote:

> Welcome home and a big thank you!
>
> I had something similar with an older laptop with ubuntu. I ended up
> installing Debian etch from a net install disc.
>
>
> On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 14:01 -0500, Jorge La wrote:
> > I just recently return home from active duty and bought a Presario
> > F700. I tried to install Ubuntu 7.10 on it, but the live CD does not
> > boot correctly. I tried other older distros that I had laying around
> > the house before I left. None of them worked except for DSL and Slax-I
> > was kind of surprised. After some research, I found that this laptop
> > has ACPI problems with linux. I'm not the only one who has problem
> > with Linux on this laptop.
> >
> > I even try to boot with noacpi and acpi off but it still does not boot
> > correctly. Single user and failsafe mode does not boot also. I am very
> > confused. I can install Ubuntu with the Alt installer, but I can not
> > log in, text or GUI mode.
> >
> > any help? (I got home 3 days after the install fest :-/)
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From drehfeldtusa at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 16:53:06 2007
From: drehfeldtusa at gmail.com (Douglas Rehfeldt)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:53:06 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Tech magazines for sale or trade
Message-ID: <000001c832d2$3aafcd60$02c8a8c0@bigburner>

I have some tech magazines and DVD/CD's from previous years that will go on
e-bay or craigslist soon.  My wife put the brakes on my geek spending until
after the holidays.  But I can use my extra stuff that's laying around as a
way to clean up.  If this type of post isn't appropriate, let me know.
Otherwise, I can post the list of magazines and DVD's or send the list to
those who are interested.  

-Doug


From bob.kline at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 17:15:54 2007
From: bob.kline at gmail.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:15:54 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Tech magazines for sale or trade
In-Reply-To: <000001c832d2$3aafcd60$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
References: <000001c832d2$3aafcd60$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 29, 2007 4:53 PM, Douglas Rehfeldt  wrote:

> I have some tech magazines and DVD/CD's from previous years that will go
> on
> e-bay or craigslist soon.  My wife put the brakes on my geek spending
> until
> after the holidays.  But I can use my extra stuff that's laying around as
> a
> way to clean up.  If this type of post isn't appropriate, let me know.
> Otherwise, I can post the list of magazines and DVD's or send the list to
> those who are interested.
>
> -Doug
>
>

The post is appropriate for anything even
remotely related to  PCs.  Off and on, people
do it all the time.

     -Bob
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From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Nov 29 21:22:06 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:22:06 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Tech magazines for sale or trade
In-Reply-To: 
References: <000001c832d2$3aafcd60$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
	
Message-ID: <474F73CE.6040304@ameritech.net>

Bob Kline wrote:
> 
> 
> On Nov 29, 2007 4:53 PM, Douglas Rehfeldt  > wrote:

>     If this type of post isn't appropriate, let me know.
>     Otherwise, I can post the list of magazines and DVD's or send the
>     list to
>     those who are interested.
> 
>     -Doug

> The post is appropriate for anything even
> remotely related to  PCs.  Off and on, people
> do it all the time.
> 
>      -Bob

Personally, I expect at least *some* sort of Linux of FOSS angle to a post.

-Ray

From tehpopa at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 21:39:59 2007
From: tehpopa at gmail.com (Justin Popa)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:39:59 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Data on portable media
In-Reply-To: <001001c832b8$d0676f30$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
References: 
	<001001c832b8$d0676f30$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
Message-ID: 

HIPAA is a big deal. The upside is that they aren't even using them out of
the office. They're just a toy. They can't leave the office with charts, nor
do they have external patient data access. They even download before they
leave due to the fact that if they don't, their letters won't be dictated
until they return it. It's just a control issue.

On Nov 29, 2007 1:51 PM, Douglas Rehfeldt  wrote:

> The statement "but now we're replacing about 1 a month due to lost items"
> got me thinking.  Mmm, I would guess that there are some HIPAA
> requirements
> related to this data.  Encryption might not just be an option.
>
> An organization is charged with securing confidential information. It can
> be
> held negligent if it does not take "reasonable steps" to protect the
> information.  Consider a jury trial involving a negligence lawsuit, would
> the jurors consider allowing thumb drives without encryption or a secured
> file system a reasonable action by an organization charged with securing
> their private information? I'm not a lawyer, but if I was a juror for a
> HIPAA-type organization on trial, it would be difficult to convince me
> that
> the organization wasn't negligent given the technology and security
> controls
> available today.  Then again, I'm not a lawyer.
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
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From drehfeldtusa at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 21:50:57 2007
From: drehfeldtusa at gmail.com (Douglas Rehfeldt)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:50:57 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Tech magazines for sale or trade
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <000001c832fb$d5b5f130$02c8a8c0@bigburner>

Thanks for the responses regarding the magazines.  I have to agree with Ray
that with the list GRLUG sponsored, that topics would be Linux related.
Well, I've got a bunch of older Linux magazines and their partner DVD's.
E-mail me directly if your interested for the inventory.  


From slestak989 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 21:11:54 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:11:54 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu installation problem
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <474F716A.10709@gmail.com>

Jorge La wrote:
> I just recently return home from active duty and bought a Presario 
> F700. I tried to install Ubuntu 7.10 on it, but the live CD does not 
> boot correctly. I tried other older distros that I had laying around 
> the house before I left. None of them worked except for DSL and Slax-I 
> was kind of surprised. After some research, I found that this laptop 
> has ACPI problems with linux. I'm not the only one who has problem 
> with Linux on this laptop.
>
> I even try to boot with noacpi and acpi off but it still does not boot 
> correctly. Single user and failsafe mode does not boot also. I am very 
> confused. I can install Ubuntu with the Alt installer, but I can not 
> log in, text or GUI mode.
>
> any help? (I got home 3 days after the install fest :-/)
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

If it will install with the alt install cd, I am assuming you have an 
ati video card.  I have had this problem with a couple of laptops.  I 
kinda prefer the alt cd install over the livecd, less flashy, but it 
works.  I see you said noacpi, but some of the google hits I see state 
noapic

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/difference-between-noapic-and-acpioff-kernel-parameters-454675/

Good luck with it.
I think Ubuntu could probably "work around" this silly ati problem, but 
that would be allowing th ecurrent situation to exist.  By not workign 
around it, ATI (AMD) has more reason to work on their drivers, so they 
can save face with their consumers.

From mikemol at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 23:12:11 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:12:11 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Ubuntu installation problem
In-Reply-To: <474F716A.10709@gmail.com>
References: 
	<474F716A.10709@gmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 29, 2007 9:11 PM, Steve Romanow  wrote:
>
> Jorge La wrote:
> > I just recently return home from active duty and bought a Presario
> > F700. I tried to install Ubuntu 7.10 on it, but the live CD does not
> > boot correctly. I tried other older distros that I had laying around
> > the house before I left. None of them worked except for DSL and Slax-I
> > was kind of surprised. After some research, I found that this laptop
> > has ACPI problems with linux. I'm not the only one who has problem
> > with Linux on this laptop.
> >
> > I even try to boot with noacpi and acpi off but it still does not boot
> > correctly. Single user and failsafe mode does not boot also. I am very
> > confused. I can install Ubuntu with the Alt installer, but I can not
> > log in, text or GUI mode.
> >
> > any help? (I got home 3 days after the install fest :-/)
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > grlug mailing list
> > grlug at grlug.org
> > http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>
> If it will install with the alt install cd, I am assuming you have an
> ati video card.  I have had this problem with a couple of laptops.  I
> kinda prefer the alt cd install over the livecd, less flashy, but it
> works.  I see you said noacpi, but some of the google hits I see state
> noapic
>
> http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/difference-between-noapic-and-acpioff-kernel-parameters-454675/
>
> Good luck with it.
> I think Ubuntu could probably "work around" this silly ati problem, but
> that would be allowing th ecurrent situation to exist.  By not workign
> around it, ATI (AMD) has more reason to work on their drivers, so they
> can save face with their consumers.

And that makes me extremely angry with Ubuntu.  They took the same
approach with Compiz and the Intel drivers, and so I can't play
StepMania on my (admittedly old) computer at home.  As a result, I
haven't exercised since Gooey Gibbon came out.  I used to dance for
six hours straight on Sundays. (StepMania is a free clone of Dance
Dance Revolution, and I had a "hard" pad custom-built for me.)  On the
StepMania plan, I lost eight inches around the waist.  I've felt it
creeping back over the last month.  Grr.

Ubuntu got their installation numbers by making a distribution that
was a cinch to set up and use.  To turn around and leverage that
distribution against hardware manufacturers at the short-term expense
of their user base is irresponsible and rude.

-- 
:wq

From mikemol at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 00:35:56 2007
From: mikemol at gmail.com (Michael Mol)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:35:56 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Tech magazines for sale or trade
In-Reply-To: <000001c832fb$d5b5f130$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
References: 
	<000001c832fb$d5b5f130$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 29, 2007 9:50 PM, Douglas Rehfeldt  wrote:
> Thanks for the responses regarding the magazines.  I have to agree with Ray
> that with the list GRLUG sponsored, that topics would be Linux related.
> Well, I've got a bunch of older Linux magazines and their partner DVD's.
> E-mail me directly if your interested for the inventory.

Perhaps we could agree on a subject prefix to denote more general
threads?  Say, "GENERAL:".  That way, those of us interested in more
general threads can read them, while people sufficiently disinterested
in such threads can put a filter in their IM client.

I'd otherwise suggest a general at grlug.org sister list, but I have no
doubt such a list would eventually fall into disuse, with its topics
showing up in the main list again.
-- 
:wq

From jtr at jrichards.org  Fri Nov 30 08:56:49 2007
From: jtr at jrichards.org (john-thomas richards)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:56:49 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Tech magazines for sale or trade
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
	<000001c832fb$d5b5f130$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
	
Message-ID: <20071130135649.GA15024@jrichards.org>

On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 12:35:56AM -0500, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Nov 29, 2007 9:50 PM, Douglas Rehfeldt  wrote:
> > Thanks for the responses regarding the magazines.  I have to agree with Ray
> > that with the list GRLUG sponsored, that topics would be Linux related.
> > Well, I've got a bunch of older Linux magazines and their partner DVD's.
> > E-mail me directly if your interested for the inventory.
> 
> Perhaps we could agree on a subject prefix to denote more general
> threads?  Say, "GENERAL:".  That way, those of us interested in more
> general threads can read them, while people sufficiently disinterested
> in such threads can put a filter in their IM client.
> 
> I'd otherwise suggest a general at grlug.org sister list, but I have no
> doubt such a list would eventually fall into disuse, with its topics
> showing up in the main list again.

At one time we had a 'grlug-chat' sister list but it was seldom used.
The premise was for general, well, *chat* that was off-topic for grlug
proper.
-- 
john-thomas
------
Westheimer's Discovery: A couple of months in the laboratory can save a
couple of hours in the library.
Frank H. Westheimer, chemistry professor (1912- )

From cdubois at n-vint.com  Fri Nov 30 09:33:04 2007
From: cdubois at n-vint.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:33:04 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] Tech magazines for sale or trade - GRLUG-Classifieds
In-Reply-To: <20071130135649.GA15024@jrichards.org>
References: 
	<000001c832fb$d5b5f130$02c8a8c0@bigburner>
	
	<20071130135649.GA15024@jrichards.org>
Message-ID: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF9755@NVMBX01.nvint.local>

Some LUG's have multiple lists.

We could do:
GRLUG-List (standard listings)
GRLUG-Jobs
GRLUG-Classifieds (hardware/software for free/sale)

I really like the idea of keeping 1 list and noting GENERAL, JOBS OR CLASSIFIED in the header field.

Casey




-----Original Message-----
From: john-thomas richards [mailto:jtr at jrichards.org]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:57 AM
To: grlug at grlug.org
Subject: Re: [GRLUG] Tech magazines for sale or trade

On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 12:35:56AM -0500, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Nov 29, 2007 9:50 PM, Douglas Rehfeldt  wrote:
> > Thanks for the responses regarding the magazines.  I have to agree with Ray
> > that with the list GRLUG sponsored, that topics would be Linux related.
> > Well, I've got a bunch of older Linux magazines and their partner DVD's.
> > E-mail me directly if your interested for the inventory.
>
> Perhaps we could agree on a subject prefix to denote more general
> threads?  Say, "GENERAL:".  That way, those of us interested in more
> general threads can read them, while people sufficiently disinterested
> in such threads can put a filter in their IM client.
>
> I'd otherwise suggest a general at grlug.org sister list, but I have no
> doubt such a list would eventually fall into disuse, with its topics
> showing up in the main list again.

At one time we had a 'grlug-chat' sister list but it was seldom used.
The premise was for general, well, *chat* that was off-topic for grlug
proper.
--
john-thomas
------
Westheimer's Discovery: A couple of months in the laboratory can save a
couple of hours in the library.
Frank H. Westheimer, chemistry professor (1912- )
_______________________________________________
grlug mailing list
grlug at grlug.org
http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug

From cdubois at n-vint.com  Fri Nov 30 15:06:54 2007
From: cdubois at n-vint.com (Casey DuBois)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:06:54 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] LUG Meeting for December - Wednesday the 5th from 6-8PM
Message-ID: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF9817@NVMBX01.nvint.local>

Hello LUGgers,

It's time for another meeting.

Wednesday December 5th.
From: 6-8PM
Location: 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industrial+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.765625&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr&om=1

I am sponsoring food so please RSVP to cdubois at n-vint.com so I can make sure to have enough.

The Agenda for this meeting will be "Enterprise wide Linux"

Don Wood has agreed to discuss how Standale lumber uses Linux (ltsp, Debian, SugarCRM and Ubuntu) and their plans to migrate 40 or so Windows thin client users by the end of 2008.
We are also interested in hearing how other companies are using or planning to use Linux Enterprise wide.

Please contact me with any questions or concerns.

See you ALL next week.

P.S. I'll bring in another skid or two of FREE Hardware for anyone that wants to sift thru it.

Sincerely,
Casey M. DuBois
N-VINT, Inc.
3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316
616-656-5500 Office
866-337-2686 Direct
AOL IM: CaseyNVINT
cdubois at n-vint.com

"Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems."
- Linus Torvalds


From slestak989 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 18:10:12 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:10:12 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] LUG Meeting for December - Wednesday the 5th from 6-8PM
In-Reply-To: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF9817@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
References: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF9817@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
Message-ID: <47509854.3040701@gmail.com>

Casey DuBois wrote:
> Hello LUGgers,
>
> It's time for another meeting.
>
> Wednesday December 5th.
> From: 6-8PM
> Location: 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
>
> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=3240+Hanna+Lake+Industrial+Park+Drive+SE,+Caledonia,+MI&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,59.765625&ie=UTF8&ll=42.847275,-85.580063&spn=0.085205,0.159645&z=13&iwloc=addr&om=1
>
> I am sponsoring food so please RSVP to cdubois at n-vint.com so I can make sure to have enough.
>
> The Agenda for this meeting will be "Enterprise wide Linux"
>
> Don Wood has agreed to discuss how Standale lumber uses Linux (ltsp, Debian, SugarCRM and Ubuntu) and their plans to migrate 40 or so Windows thin client users by the end of 2008.
> We are also interested in hearing how other companies are using or planning to use Linux Enterprise wide.
>
> Please contact me with any questions or concerns.
>
> See you ALL next week.
>
> P.S. I'll bring in another skid or two of FREE Hardware for anyone that wants to sift thru it.
>
> Sincerely,
> Casey M. DuBois
> N-VINT, Inc.
> 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Dr. SE, Caledonia, MI 49316
> 616-656-5500 Office
> 866-337-2686 Direct
> AOL IM: CaseyNVINT
> cdubois at n-vint.com
>
> "Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems."
> - Linus Torvalds
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug
>   
I will try to make it. Anyone want to unload a truck with me Tuesday 
night in Kentwood?

From greg at gregfolkert.net  Fri Nov 30 18:17:02 2007
From: greg at gregfolkert.net (Greg Folkert)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:17:02 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] LUG Meeting for December - Wednesday the 5th from 6-8PM
In-Reply-To: <47509854.3040701@gmail.com>
References: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF9817@NVMBX01.nvint.local>
	<47509854.3040701@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1196464622.12977.131.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>


On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 18:10 -0500, Steve Romanow wrote:
> Casey DuBois wrote:
> > Hello LUGgers,
> >
> > It's time for another meeting.
> >
> > Wednesday December 5th.
> > From: 6-8PM
> > Location: 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
[snippage]
> I will try to make it. Anyone want to unload a truck with me Tuesday 
> night in Kentwood?

Where exactly in Kentwood?

I'm right around 50th and Buchanan.

Depends on the timing, as I work 8-5 MT (10-7 ET). But my schedule is
flexible *now*....

On another note:
Perhaps, Topher could come to the meeting, as I found out we have a
mutual friend, or rather I work with one of his friends. Perhaps Topher,
you should drag Ed with you to this meeting.

-- 
Greg Folkert 
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From slestak989 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 21:25:38 2007
From: slestak989 at gmail.com (Steve Romanow)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:25:38 -0500
Subject: [GRLUG] LUG Meeting for December - Wednesday the 5th from 6-8PM
In-Reply-To: <1196464622.12977.131.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
References: <9F172CF1A5341F4F989A2A1414D59669D6BF9817@NVMBX01.nvint.local>	<47509854.3040701@gmail.com>
	<1196464622.12977.131.camel@princess.gregfolkert.net>
Message-ID: <4750C622.1060207@gmail.com>

Greg Folkert wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 18:10 -0500, Steve Romanow wrote:
>   
>> Casey DuBois wrote:
>>     
>>> Hello LUGgers,
>>>
>>> It's time for another meeting.
>>>
>>> Wednesday December 5th.
>>> From: 6-8PM
>>> Location: 3240 Hanna Lake Industrial Park Drive SE, Caledonia
>>>       
> [snippage]
>   
>> I will try to make it. Anyone want to unload a truck with me Tuesday 
>> night in Kentwood?
>>     
>
> Where exactly in Kentwood?
>
> I'm right around 50th and Buchanan.
>
> Depends on the timing, as I work 8-5 MT (10-7 ET). But my schedule is
> flexible *now*....
>   
At 44th & Kalamazoo, Tradewinds Dr, off Stauffer.  I get the house at 
5pm, stinks that I have to kill time all day until the sun drops to 
unload at dusk.  When does it get dark now in GR?  I have 2 movers 
coming, but really want to get this done since the truck is due Wed am.

I cant wait to hear what the presentation on enterpise linux.  I have 
hoped and prayed for getting to use linux professionally instead of as a 
hobby.  My current boss has been pretty receptive, even as a msft 
fanboy, he sees the value when comparing feature sets and I;ve been able 
to implement projects with nomachine, rhel, imagemagick, gimp, even got 
a pretty hot Ubuntu machine for a second box for "special projects".  
Being patient and proselytizing when I can, I've always been able to 
produce results.  In our business (wholesale distribution) we dont have 
the margins for citrix, E12, SAP, etc.  I've been trying to sell based 
on liberal pro-consumer licensing and the profit in "building on the 
shoulders of giants".  I'll be that "crazy linux guy" if it means my 
company stays competitive and I can keep solving problems for my team 
members.

FOr the truck thing, I will repay the favor or I can even pay for the 
help.  Im just in kindof a jam gettign the house so late.

Steve
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> grlug mailing list
> grlug at grlug.org
> http://shinobu.grlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grlug